 You're welcome back. It's still a breakfast plus TV Africa and I'm glad to know that you're still there. I'm still Nyamgul Aggaiji that hasn't changed and I'm here with Kofi Battels. And we're looking at what has played out in Adama, what we, all of us are calling drama. Like Kofi would say, that politicians are creating content, comedy content that even the comedians that parrot themselves as comedians cannot create because there are so many things that are happening. But right now we'd like to look at the legal implications of what is happening in Adama Westid. The elections have come but they have not gone because people are on the streets protesting that the needful should be done. And I don't know the needful by whose standards because some other people are saying what has been done has been done already and it was done well while others are saying that it was not done well. But what does the law say about what has happened? And we're glad to have joining us right now Justice Uwebu, a human rights lawyer talking with us from Abuja. Good morning and welcome to the program Justice. Good morning. This is my pleasure also. Yeah, all everybody is asking for eventually your name is it. They want justice in Adama Westid. So now what is your take on what is going on in Adama Westid from the announcement of someone who was supposed to have won to others protesting that the needful has not been done and the stalling by INAG of announcing the results of the election that has already been carried out. What is your take? Can you hear me Justice? Justice, can you hear me? Okay, right now Justice cannot hear us. Yes indeed. We will do our best to reconnect with Justice Uwebu but the Adama Westid story is quite interesting. Very interesting. I mean we had reporters in the ground, we had correspondents all over the place. And I was watching a report, interestingly Yamgo. Okay, Justice is back. Let's just take it. Justice, can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you. Did you get my question or I should repeat it? Yes, yes, I did. I did. Okay, go ahead. It's actually quite unfortunate because I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what is happening. INAG had earlier told Nigeria that they were ready for this election. And suffice to say that this is not the first time I like this kind of election. But unfortunately this particular election has been mad with so many infractions and issues here and there. It is a shame what is playing out in Adama 1. And what happened is just because Adama 1 people have to come out and say, look at what is happening. It happened in so many other states, I have to tell you the truth. But the only thing is that many people decided to go and not put on less TVs for God. And because that has been the slogan of Nigerian people. But it's so unfortunate that INAG will conduct election and the needs will not be done. And the INAG staff will go and do a different thing altogether from the norms, why they are performing their duty. It's so unfortunate, really unfortunate. But what does the law say about who has the right to announce results? We're not even looking at whether the results were announced at the right time. But who is vested with that power to announce results from a state or from a polling unit or whatever? Well, you see that every state has, you know, INAG has what's called the vision of level. Every state has the reasons, the electoral commissioners, who has the right to announce the results of every state. While in the Pune Units, the INAG officer there has the right to announce results as cast at that Pune Units. If these things are so clear, we can't come up and be talking again and again and again and again every time. They know the right thing. They know nobody wants to do the right thing. So now, if the red commission has announced a fake result for one reason or the other, can you not see that results should stand? And moreover, from the feelings we are getting or from what we had, as at the time of the announcement of the results, about 10 local governments have not been collected. So, I mean, where on earth do you do such things? One of your senators, well, not your senator, but I will say you, because you're dressed like one of his constituents from the cap you're wearing. The reason the senator presenting Adamawa North, he is Senator Ishaq Abu, a very popular senator, or let me say famous or infamous for one of his actions which he happened to have gotten away with. Now, he's saying that INAG can't come out today to say that the result declared by the wreck Adamawa is null and void. In fact, he's reacting to the words of National Commissioner for Information and Voter Education of INAG, Faisal Sokoe, your Leonard colleague, that the actions of the Adamawa wreck are quote, null, void, and of no effect. And what Senator Abu is saying, I mean, he voted for the electoral act. He was part of those who voted aye or nay, I think he voted aye. He's saying that the electoral body's proclamation is insignificant as backed by the electoral act. And he's saying that INAG cannot nullify, quote, INAG cannot nullify an election that has been announced. They don't have that power. And he's referring to section 65 of the electoral act, which he says is not operating isolation, isolation rather, as there is also section 149. Which states that, and I quote, notwithstanding any other act provision of this act, any defect arising from any actions taken by an official of the commission in relation to any notice, form or document made or given or other things done by the official in post ones to the provisions of the constitution or of this act or any rules made there under remain valid unless otherwise challenged and declared invalid by competent court of law or tribunal. Olga, please, break this one down for us. No, no, no, the truth is this. I said something. If actually, as at the time of the announcement of that result, that about 10 local governments has not been collected and added up and if the red commission idea goes on to announce the result, INAG has every right to stop the announcement until that result is added up. Because you see, when you're talking, I know where he's going. What is the simply saying by questions of the electoral act is that every election matter has to go to court. It's the court that has the right to determine whether that election was proper or not, whether to nullify the election or not. But here, if I may declares a particular election inconclusive, I think the word, the proper word here that should be used is inconclusive and not to say you are nullifying the election. But eventually, as at the time the election, the result was announced, there was still some local government that had been expected. The proper word for INAG to use is that election is inconclusive. It's as simple as that. They are not nullifying any results or any proclamation made so far. He could have made the announcement in error or whatever. So even if he made an announcement in error and it is discovered that some local government has still been awaited, INAG has the result to declare that this election is inconclusive. It's just as simple as that. Well, but from the sections that were read, does it give INAG official, like the wreck that we're talking about right now, the power to announce results? Because our understanding is that whoever should announce this result should be the returning officer who is not the wreck. Now the wreck is taking the powers or the functions of the returning officer and announcing the results, which we've never had. Does that portion of the electoral act give power to a wreck to announce results rather than the returning officer? You know, if you look at the electoral act, there are internal mechanisms. The INAG itself hoops and upgrades. You have the resident electoral commissioner of that state. You now have the returning officer. Now, for example, if you watch the presidential election, for example, the INAG chairman is here. And the INAG chairman would call on the wreck to come and present his results. And once he presents that results, at the end of the day, the results will be accepted. And at the end of the day, the INAG chairman will declare the result. So the truth here now is this. The procedure was not followed. Because the returning officer is actually supposed to collect all the results. He's supposed to be in charge of all the results from all the polling units. Then they will now move to the INAG office at the stake. We are the wreck who will be on seat. And all the party agents on seat. Once he submits his thoughts and accept it, it will not be announced. So in all these procedures we are not taking, it is neither here nor there. That election will be declared inconclusive. But Justice Huebu, going by the electoral act, which I'm looking at now, who announces the winner in the governorship election? We know who does that in the presidential election. The governorship by the electoral act, who announces the winner? After all the results are being collected. In the governorship, that was why I tried to put a comparison between the governorship and the presidential. It is an open trade, it is not in the open. And once it is not done in the open, for example, nobody has to go and announce results arbitrarily without following the procedure. I think that is what has happened here. The issue of who announces the results, whether it is the returning officer or whether it is the wreck here or now, will even be suspended. But the question we should ask ourselves here was the proper thing was the rule followed. And if you look at the whole thing, it was not followed. So for me, that election should be declared inconclusive. But just a quick follow on that. I think what you are saying is like saying you went to court and then the judge, who by law is empowered to give a ruling, gives that ruling or makes a judgment or gives an order. And then you say, oh, the law was not followed or the constitution says ABC or you fail to look at this thing. And it is true, proven that the judge in that matter did not follow the laid down rules or procedures or blatantly refused to follow the law. But there is nothing you can do about it. You can only vacate that judgment by the order of a superior court or by the ruling of a superior court, whichever it is. So is this not the case that the wreck... No, no, no. Let me tell you one thing. A court, a court can also overrule itself. A court can overrule itself. Especially when a judgment or another has been gotten by fraud, the same courts can set aside that same judgment. If it is proved that that judgment or ruling was gotten by fraud, maybe the party that got the judgment misled the courts to give that judgment. You can apply to the same court to set aside that particular judgment. Saying that it was gotten by fraud. But is that not what Ishaquaba is saying? Is that you can't, I can't on its own, just say the pronouncement of the wreck is null and void. You have to go to court because he has made the pronouncement. It's like a judicial pronouncement, like you're saying. A lawyer can say, or the National Judicial Council can say what Justice Uwegu has pronounced as a judge now. Justice Justice Uwegu has said, as ruled, is null and void. He may have to be vacated by a court. Like you said, the court can overrule itself. Yes, it has to be vacated by... Is that the same court that gave the judgment? Understand me, that's where I am bringing Inek in now. And that's why I said, actually, that the principles were not followed. Like for example, like what we are saying here now. The Inek itself can decide that this election is inconclusive. I'm not talking about a moment of the election. Inek has no right to announce the election at that period when somebody has made a pronouncement. Even if the person that made the pronouncement should not make the pronouncement, will it still hold? If the person that made the pronouncement is not the person by law that is supposed to make the pronouncement, definitely it's a novel. That is where we have conflict of law. But remember that the person still remains an agent of the commission because what I mean by that is the staff of Inek. So by that, what has happened, he has acted out of reverence because he has acted above his scope. And that is where corruption comes in. That is where other things come in. So at that point in time, I think the problem here is that well, the deed has been done. But if Inek comes out and say the election of Adamawa is inconclusive and not that they have cancelled the election of Adamawa that has been pronounced, if they say it's inconclusive, everybody will understand it. But if they now say if they have cancelled it, that the election that has been announced, the result has been announced, has been cancelled, it's only the court that will have the right in addition to cancel results. Which means it has to go to Tribunal. But is it not too late to say it's inconclusive because for something to be announced, it's assumed to be conclusive. So is it not too late at this time to say the election is inconclusive? What are they going to do when there is an announcement? Remember I said something. The feelings we got was that ten local governments at the time of the announcement of the results were still being expected. So can you not say you will go ahead and announce the results? What Inek should do immediately as Adamawa was to say no. This election is inconclusive. After some submitted elections we had just held that Saturday in some states where elections were declared inconclusive. Okay, let me just... I don't know if this is a digression, but let me draw a comparison here. What's the math difference between what has happened in Adamawa and what happened, say, in the presidential election? As we speak right now, I doubt if all the results from all the states have been uploaded to the IRF, which means there are some other ones that are not in public glare because they are not on their portal right now. And the same thing in Adamawa state, they are saying there are some that they didn't get physically in Adamawa state, so they cannot take that announcement of a winner. So it is null and void. All the results, all the results in the presidential arrived at Buja. The only thing that was not on the portal is a different thing. You cannot compare with what has happened in Adamawa. All the results, the presidential results arrived at Buja and all the returning officers came out openly and presented their results before it was concluded and the winner was announced. But this one is a departure from that process. What we are saying here is that we have it on record by the media that as at the time collection was still ongoing, somebody went ahead to announce the results when collection was still ongoing. So you cannot say that justice has been done. Then what then happens to those local governments that were not collected or that have not arrived the headquarters? So if you now announce the results and those local government now arrived the headquarters, what happened? Another thing you should ask yourself, as at where was this result announced? Was it announced in the presence of all the party agents as the pletons by the rule? So these are certain things you look at. And Ainek in his own and in his wisdom and his powers has his own mandate on what to do, the procedure and the modus operandi. And once it is not met, Ainek can say, well, based on these facts, based on these facts, we declare this result inconclusive until we get the other local governments that are still being awaited. If you remember, in the presentation, there were several times the Ainek chairman rose for one, for a few hours in order to give room for other results to arrive. Okay, all right. The procedures are clearly outlined in the guidelines and regulations and guidelines for the conduct of elections as released in 2020 by Ainek, which talks about, you know, articulation and returning officers. You know, it talks about officers completing form EC8E, signing it and then announcing loudly the results. And then, of course, distributing copies to polling agents and all that, submitting the original to the state resident electoral commissioner, the original copy of form EC8D and then the declaration of the results form EC8E together with other election materials handed over to the state resident electoral commissioner. So what I see is that we in the media would normally say Ainek has announced the results of a governorship election. Ainek has declared the results of a governorship election. But what you seem to be seeing is you're agreeing with Senator Isha Qaboo that only a court order can vacate this announcement by Ainek. Yeah, but in fact, for the avoidance of doubts and in order not to create unnecessary chaos, the best thing at this moment is for the party or the other party that failed the results was not properly announced or that they won the election and the another person was there, used to go to court because at the moment you bring up these things on the table, they go to Northwest time in nullifying that election or the courts on its own cannot call for the remaining local governments to add them up and a winner will definitely emerge. I think at this point in time in order not to start having unnecessary issues the best thing is to go to court. All right, all right, you know like they say. When Ainek notices this, Ainek ought to have immediately make an announcement as a then that the election is inconclusive instead of allowing it for some days before coming home to say anything. All right, like they say go to court. It's now very funny. It's a very clear go to court situation, right? Yeah, yeah. All right, but now I'm just on the side of some people that are calling for stifa measures to be meted on the person who did this. If he did this he did not follow the law. He did not follow protocol. That means he has tried to destroy democracy as they are putting it. And what Ainek did was to suspend him from Ainek activities for a certain time and maybe after that they will transfer him to another state or something, just hide him somewhere there. And people are calling for stifa measures to be meted out on him because if he did what he shouldn't do and now putting the the polity into this kind of situation then a slap on the wrist is not good enough. That is what some people are saying. What do you think? Well, I agree with them and not only that. You see, people talk about prosecuting electoral offenders and all that. Officials will also take on this because in fact, let me tell you the truth Ainek staff or officials are even the number one people that, you know, violate these electoral provisions. They are the first people. Like we have been hearing and the filers have been coming that two billion era was scattered away in order to do, to announce this result. And if that is so where are we heading to? Where are we? In fact, this person that committed this act or atrocity, let me put it that way because the criminal act should by now be arrested and prosecuted so that others would take a leave from there. So that is to serve as a deterrent to others. Let me tell you also, in the last election in 2019 something like this happened in so many states in some industrial elections and all the right. Why a collection was still ongoing? Some people went and declared themselves winner on the radio and television and nothing happened. And that is why some of these things is happening today because of the impurity that is operating in this country. So I think we should use Adamawa as a case study and use that person as an escape good. All this nonsense should stop whatever it is. But who should champion this cause? Because the police were there as you are saying. Every person that is supposed to stand up and do the needful was there. The high ranking officers were there while these announcements were made. And somebody was arguing that this arrest cannot happen until someone petitions the police and says go and arrest this person. And the person who was talking was thinking civil society organizations should stand up now and protest and write petitions and all that. Do they really need a petition before the police can arrest who they need to arrest? Does the police have to wait for someone else before they can do the arrest? And you talked about INAG not being able to prosecute and all that. So if INAG cannot ask for the arrest of this person, who should champion this cause? You see that is where we go on the issue of integrity and issue of institution. I have said it time without number that the institutions in Nigeria has failed. That is our problem because the INAG INAG we are talking about INAG are the staff that is working there. The INAG chairman and other officers or officials they are the INAG we are talking about. And if somebody has done anything wrong, what is supposed to do? The one thing is that the one thing stops on the dex of the institution. And that is why we are saying that if this country will move forward for good it is in the hands of the institution. It will fall, it is in the hands of the institution. So it doesn't matter who is there but if the institutions are working immediately what the INAG chairman should do is to call for the arrest of whoever that crime. And the person who will be arrested he don't need for civil society organization to begin right petitions and all the rights. No, you don't need to do that. And again I am also putting it on the executive. The police we are talking about is also an arm of the executive. The executive controls the police. And what do the police ask people like that? The police can arrest when somebody has been suspected to have committed an offence, likely to commit an offence or about to commit an offence. That's what we call reasonable suspicion. So in this situation like you rightly said, policemen we are there but most policemen may not have known this position we are talking about now. So now knowing that the person who announced the result was not supposed to announce the result as at the time he did. Are you are we supposed to wait for the commission of police in that stage to detail his men to go and get that person arrested whether the INEC chairman gives instruction or not. Because the police is there to do each duty as that went you. That is the problem we are having. But because of the slogan of you who plays the pipe and details the tune you are waiting for instruction from somebody or the other. Do your own duty you will not do. Do you really see some boys on the road they will arrest them and say they are suspect. They are suspecting them to be a new boy. They are searching their phones they are searching their laptops on reasonable suspicion. Now something happened in your eye there is no reasonable suspicion again. You are waiting to get instruction from somebody. It is a shame in this country. So before we go Ayesha Binani went ahead to accept the election result she accepted a given acceptance speech. There is a lot of sentimentality with this particular election. Nigerians as with other things are some Nigerians are being sentimental saying I was a woman and it would be so nice to see a woman emerge as governor. And being soft on the lady and taking it easy I am sure it was Yamgul on myself or even you we would have decided on you. Do you think this woman deserves some sort of attention maybe condemnation for going ahead to accept the victory. Instead of saying this is what happened or plain politics. We are in a society where people don't condemn anything bad. Especially when it was them. So I am not surprised I was expecting it takes integrity for somebody to see something and condemn it if you remember. You see some let me give you an example. There are a few governors in Nigeria even in 2015 2019 during the election period they were saying the election was not free and fair but immediately they were declared winner there is enough talk about the election was not free and fair. So can I benefit from an act of a bad process that is the issue. So for the fact that she has been benefitting from the act of a bad process if she is prudent enough and if she has integrity she is supposed to come out and tell Nigeria no this is not the procedure. The procedure was not followed. Can we please be patient let the procedure be followed. By the end of the day the election was announced later and she did not win. Nigerians would take her as somebody with integrity and they believed that she would get appointment somewhere look at what happened in Nabiya space that woman today is being adored like a god or like a goddess just because she did the right thing so what are we saying alright thank you very much just a quick quick follow up question to you answer brief. This Adamao election can the entire 2023 election but the governorship and state elections can they be judged based on what INEC has displayed in Adamao state. Some are saying you can't discredit the entire election just because of one state and the fiasco there. It's not true you see injustice somewhere is a threat to justice everywhere we must live a good but if this kind of thing can happen you not act yourself what has happened in some other states where people did not speak or people did not take recognition of it or people decided to keep quiet the truth is this INEC has not done well I was expecting INEC to have live above God. I was expecting what I call lord of progression may well diminishing since how many years 1999 the same INEC making the same mistake every year. So where are we going? Depart from the huge amount of money that was voted for this election every election period they were voting more money every election period were voting more money more introduction and all the rights I'm nothing to show for it it's a shame if INEC will be scrubbed I think the best thing is to find INEC to be scrubbed. Let's look for another body maybe we should change that name from INEC to any other name let's see whether things can get better INEC is not doing well at all we have the CNPP which is a coalition of political parties in Nigeria saying that this is a demo election is if cares not taken we will wipe away any legacy that would have remained of the Mohammed Buhari years as president of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Do you feel that this is enough to wipe the record or to I mean retain the legacy let's say of Buhari and to take away any good legacy that he would have left behind well for me Buhari is not INEC as much as he can call the INEC chairman to order but he is still not INEC INEC chairman knows what to do the police also knows will you tell me that the IG has not heard about what is happening what of the commission of police in that state and also he has nothing to do with Buhari if the INEC chairman has ordered for the arrest of the person who did this that Buhari will come out to defend it I'm not sure so let us not put every door we know that on easy lies the head that wears the crown the whole thing still goes to executive but here INEC is an independent body that should work on its own that should do the right thing so for me I don't say it that way generally do you think INEC broke any law in these elections be it presidential or or governorship election or state elections do you think they broke any law well like I said before INEC didn't do well are we talking about the beavers are we talking about the accreditation are we talking about the process of the declining results and are we talking about the transmission of results to the voter as they told Nigerians as they promised to say the one thing that once you call social contracts once you have come out and tell the people look at what they're going to do and remember the money voted for INEC is the money of Nigeria we are also called as in this country provided our money is involved they owe us a duty of care and provided that the duty of care is not done INEC has failed more fully as simple as that but failing is different from breaking the law is the law that acts yes so they broke the law okay that's the coffee and the the debate as to whether this brand of this brand of democracy is going to work for Nigeria I mean looking at the this grace that we've seen this grace acts we've seen in different parts of the country so professors announcing results that people can't even understand or recognize in the electoral empire uploading results or announcing results different from what was uploaded and the whole lot of I mean actions by politicians as well you know to subvert the process from all sides from different parties massive rigging this time it's as open rigging and nobody's apologizing for it saying go to God different parties not just one party do you feel that this brand of democracy that Nigeria is practicing which we carbon copied from the west will work in this country we can even live in Nigeria and talk about the African context you know it's the African man it's a Nigerian man woman voter able to be as democratic as the American should we need to evolve our own brand of democracy the truth is that this is not the first time we were having elections in Nigeria if you remember in 1989 elections even before that time the era of NCNC NPP NPN and all the other things we are not like that's why I said that I thought there are what to call geometric progression you know professors will see that the law is to harmonize with the society so I felt that by now as we are growing the implication of that is that the law grows with the society as the society is growing the law is supposed to be growing alongside with the society so INEC is not growing rather what we are experiencing today is what I call a lot of diminishing return so our democracy is diminishing instead of progressing I never thought it could be this look at what we are having today we are still having issues of snatching of ballot paper we are still having issues of counting in Nigeria and of the right we are getting strong this we are supposed to be on time and now we are still operating this and the impurity has wedded in to suppress the voting for me I have told people earlier before now that what we are expressing in Nigeria is not democracy but what I call democracy that is the truth that is the truth this is interesting we have to leave it at that we have to say goodbye to you and all we can say is Nagodi from the way you address you are a civilized Nigerian if not for the fact that elections have been concluded and I have said you are probably thinking of contesting trying to appeal to you very soon, very soon I will do that Ranka did this Thank you Thank you He is a human rights lawyer very interesting conversation It is very interesting and having insight into what the law says about everything is good but it still is a drama and it is very funny funny on one hand because you don't expect these people to do this and very disappointing on the other hand because we have grown to a stage where we are known better and when people say a lot of things that are being done now is done because of hunger sometimes it is not hunger it is not hunger you talked about something very important and then I will ask the same question will the Rek Adamawa face a maximum penalty applicable for his actions or will he walk away with a slap on his wrist can I predict some of this I think you know the answer it is not from my mouth but you see who is going to have the moral standing to give the kind of punishment that he deserves to him knowing that ok there has been talks about every election that has happened here there has been talks about money changing hands going to the people that we know are not hungry but they are giving them lots and lots of money and all that and who is going to accuse who of collecting money and doing the wrong and all that so by now like he said it should be arrested but nobody is talking about that why maybe because he also knows some skeletons in some people's covers and all that if you want him to shout you go and then arrest him so you might be invariably saying for what you are saying he may get away with it he will get away with it you just said something about senator what he did will he still be a senator today if the right thing was to be done we are talking about trying to be the senate president I don't even know if his case has finished in court he was in jail and he came out will tell you that Donald Trump is also facing charges he may even run for president from prison so he is not to go I was listening to okay we have to take a break now okay we will be back to wrap this up in a second conversation hopefully we will please stay with us