 All right. So yeah, I'm glad to be with you all and I'm going to be talking about intercropping. And so I'm with New City Urban Farm, which is a program of New City neighbors and we're in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We'll go to the next slide. It's just a little bit of history of New City neighbors. We've been in existence since 2007 and we began with a bakery and after-school program in 2009. So our mission is to empower you to reach your full potential. So all of our programming is meant to benefit you in some way. In 2012, we started a 3A farm and that's where we trialed everything that I'll be talking about. And then we have been existing on the property of Fort Reform Church since the farm started and they had a kitchen that we were able to license to be a commercial kitchen. So we started making value-added soups in 2015 and in 2017, we built an outdoor patio that we use for a pop-up cafe that does wood-fired pizzas and then soups and salads as well. And then we run all those as a social enterprise. And so the idea is the revenue that we earn through those small businesses then provide youth employment to high school students in our surrounding neighborhood. So in a normal year when we're not in a global pandemic, we would employ 20 youth and they would work in either our farm or at our cafe. And so just a little bit of a sense of our social enterprise numbers in the year before the global pandemic was 2019. We were able to pay out $60,000 in youth employees, about 30 different youth, and we grossed $110,000 in sales between our urban farm and our cafe. Next slide. Then you can just kind of scroll through the next, there's just a bunch of pictures of our youth in our middle school bakery program. And then there's some youth at our outdoor cafe. And then this is just an aerial of the farm. I'm like standing on the church's steeple for this photo. Keep going. And then this is us looking back out to the church, standing in the field. And then that's looking out into the looking out over to the church. You can do the next slide. And then that's a little bit of our field. We have about 9,000 square foot in under plastic. So I think we have about nine caterpillars that are all 12 by 130. And then we have a larger one that's 14 by 140. And we have a new site that we just built a 168 by 30 foot tunnel. And then this is our youth kind of helping run our CSA pickup. And some of our shareholders picking strawberries. And then more kind of customer service experiences. And getting to know each other while we're weeding. And this is our favorite shareholder doing you pick cherry tomatoes. And so our shareholders do do I pick peas and beans and cherry tomatoes. So that's them picking a bunch of that. And we do a 33 week season. So we do three CSAs that are each 11 weeks long spring, summer, fall. And this is some produce from our fall share. So our first harvest is the first week of May. And our last harvest is the third week of December. And that's just kind of what a normal CSA share would look like for our customers. And then this is us building that wood fire pizza oven. I had a previous Sarah Farmer Rancher grant that we got for trialing out this wood fire pizza oven. And if you're a high school student, whenever you do anything, you should take a selfie and post it on Facebook. And then that's our completed oven. And then that's kind of where our point of sale is. And you can kind of see what the outdoor field for the cafe is. And then that's our outdoor seating for the cafe, making pizza. If you want to teach high school students how to cook healthy food, just build a wood fire pizza oven. It takes care of itself after that. You can go to the next slide. So yeah, that's just kind of a little bit of an overview of the organization just to kind of give some context, somatic context. Actually, everything that you just saw, we're actually being forced to move our location this year. And so the church after 10 years of partnership has decided to part ways with us. So we had to abruptly move all that stuff, including, well, we're not going to be able to move the wood fire pizza oven, but we will potentially have to move the whole farm operation. And we just bought a new property that we're completely renovating and doing a commercial kitchen. And we have two new growing sites. So we'll keep on keeping on. But yeah, I won't even get into why, but it's a really bad reason. But I'm not here to talk about that too much, but I just wanted to kind of let you know kind of the history of the organization and the context. But really, I'm here to talk about intercropping. And so why I like to intercrop is more for the higher yields for all available space. So we have been landlocked as a farm at three acres. And so we want to grow as much food as we can on a small space. And so I want to have every square foot of my fields growing in something all the time. And intercropping helps me achieve that end. And so I'm not intercropping for like beneficials like all maybe onions next to tomatoes are going to create some kind of benefit. I kind of think of that more as companion planting. I don't really put much stock in that, to be honest. And it's not the intention behind why intercropping. I'm really thinking about utilization of space. And then the other advantage I've found to intercropping is you have less weeds because all available space is being used at all times. And so if you are using every square foot for a plant that you want to grow, that's less square footage for a plant that you don't want to grow to grow. And so if our spacing can get tighter, then we don't have to cultivate in between rows. We will have established plants that will dominate the space. It may reduce insect pressure, but I haven't researched that. And I'm not particularly thinking that that would be the case. But anytime you have a polyculture, you're in a better place. I think you're more mimicking nature. And so a lot of our intercroppings are different plant families intercropped in the same space. So there might be some benefit to that. And then for some of our plantings, we have found that there's nice shading advantages. So one example might be we do those beans or peas on nets like you saw. And then we do actually rows of spinach on the sides before the peas are ready. And so spinach loves the bolt and the hot sun. The spinach is kind of ready at 30 to 40 days. And the peas are going to be ready at 55, 60 days. And so the tall peas growing on that vertical net will start to shade the spinach right when you want it to be shaded. And then the two best reasons, it's beautiful and it's fun. Next slide. So just some principles. You're going to want to have really good soil. I think our soil and our field tested about 9% organic matter. I think you want to at least be around 5%. We've got to that high number by just applying a lot of plant-based compost. So the nice advantage of growing in a really intensive fashion is you can afford to put a lot of amendments in your space because you're getting an enormous yield from that space. So we're grossing about 90,000 on just under three acres. So we're grossing about 30,000 an acre. So putting $2,000 of plant-based compost on it to get to that and is doable. And so we've done that high-end plant-based compost. We're not doing that as much because we have such a good established soil at this point. But then we do amend with a custom organic mix based off of our soil testing. And we use a little bit of fish just if something doesn't look like it's as happy as it should be. So then if your soil is right, then the only limitation is the sun. So then you're just trying to use all available sunlight at all times. And then just a general principle to remember. Sometimes I've heard of that book or seen the book, the square foot gardener. That's a decent book to kind of help you visualize spacing. But I like to make the point that plants grow in circles and not squares. And so when you are thinking about planting, you shouldn't plant row to row right next to each other like this. They should be staggered like this. And then you can actually get things closer and they can intersect each other. And kind of the analogy I like to give is when if anybody's old enough to remember Atari, we would do all of our graphics where everything was made it as a square. And then that company Pixar came out and they made things circles. And then things can get put closer together if you use a circle kind of planting. And I'll have another slide that will kind of demonstrate that a little bit. And then another principle is you're going to want to keep your heavy feeders. Braskas especially I've found in the center of intercrop beds. And then light feeders like lettuce, let's say on the outside. And when you are putting different plant families together, you'll learn that certain plant families will dominate spaces much quicker. And so Braskas love to just suck up nutrients from the soil, whereas like a lettuce is a really light feeder. It's not really pulling a lot of nutrients from the soil. And so one of our intercropping things is broccoli with lettuce on the outside. The lettuce is ready in 30 days and the broccoli is ready in about 70 days. And the broccoli really doesn't interfere with the lettuce or rice versa. But if I were to put like cucumbers in the center and I were to put like bok choy on the outside, the bok choy would actually dominate the cucumbers. And you would have enormous bok choy and really dwarfed cucumbers. And I found coppers are really the weakest plants in this kind of method. And then the idea then is you place your longer season crops in the center and your short season crops on the outside. And you're harvesting the short season crops before the long seeding crops are ready to be harvested. And then just experiment and have fun and discover what combos work for you. And I'll kind of show you some of the ones that we've used to kind of help get you underway. Next slide. So some of our winning combos that I might have already rep mentioned, we like to do pole beans and trellis peas. This is right when they've been planted. So we do a 32-inch bed top. And you can kind of see these three little racing stripes going down the bed. So that center stripe is pole beans or peas that will then get trellis. And then the outer stripe is a spinach. Or it could be an arugula. It could be a radish, some kind of 30-day quick crop. And so you're going to get a harvest of that 30-day crop. And then that center one will keep going. Next slide. Oh, that's my daughter. So I think she's beautiful. So I thought she should be in there. But she's picking pole beans that you can see there. And this is what those pole beans look like now that they've already grown all the way up. The spinach is no longer there. So we cultivate everything with a Wackenheim tractor, a grillo. And I have a rotary plow implement on it. The tiller actually fits in between the pea beds. And so we'll do it, like after the spinach is done, we go between those pea plantings with the tiller. And then I make a pass with the rotary plow, which actually is what makes that down trench. But it also trucks dirt to the right. So we're essentially cultivating with that tiller in between the pea rows. And then I'm actually hilling the peas up. And then that gets rid of the spinach and gets rid of all the weeds on your peas. And so then that's how we kind of really quickly had a really nice, clean pea bed or a full bean bed. Next slide. This is probably my favorite intercropping combination. And so this is the brass can the center with the lettuce on the outside. And you'll notice actually that one photo on the left has little baby bok choy on the outside. So the center is these broccolis. And with a bok choy and a lettuce on the outside, I've kind of walked away from even those little baby bok choy because they like to, they're a brass can and they really like to pull and you might get a slightly smaller broccoli head because those, those bok choy are actually going to mess with the broccoli a little bit. Whereas the lettuce will do nothing at all to it. We pull, we were pulling nine, 10 inch broccoli heads out of the field with intercrop lettuce. The lettuce really doesn't do anything at all to the plant. So the idea now is you can see kind of the photo to the right is actually Brussels sprouts too. And so that this can be done with Brussels just as easily or cauliflower. And so then that lettuce is ready to be harvested like right about now. And you can see the broccoli and the bok choy or the broccoli and the Brussels are just starting to shade that lettuce. And that kind of gets to that, that shading advantage that I mentioned before. And so now that lettuce is ready, but we might not want all that lettuce all at the same time. And we might be able to get a week or two more of that lettuce sitting for us before it bolts because it's kind of hidden by the broccoli leaves or by the Brussels leaves. So we get a whole bunch of lettuce. And then we have broccoli and Brussels later. And so I think broccoli and Brussels are tough to grow on three acres because they do take a lot of space for what they, they yield. And so by getting, you know, we do a lot of that sell on Nova mix that you can see on the right. And so you can make a lot of nice lettuce mix for, you know, three or four weeks from those plantings. And then you get the Brussels much later. And you also see that in the photo, the right, we've moved into putting a lot of that into, into landscape fabric. We generally don't put broccoli into landscape fabric. I think the amount of time it takes to put out the fabric, it doesn't make sense for broccoli. It's done in about 60, 70 days. And we can keep it pretty clean. If you, if you, you know, use some good weeding tools, smart weeding tools at the right time. Brussels are much longer, like they're in the field, like 110 days or something. And so then we find that having them in fabric pays for itself. Next slide. You can see that Brussels and lettuce. And then behind that is, I think, our cherry tomatoes on Nets, but next slide. We do do this in the tunnel sometimes. This is a bit more common. I think a lot of people have been in or cropping in tunnels for a while just because they're trying to get as much out of the tunnels as possible. And we, I, the one I like to do now the most is cucumbers and basil doing anything with cucumbers. And so the basil will last a lot longer in a tunnel because it won't get that downy mildew quite as quick because it won't get rained on. And so we like to do that one quite a bit. Next slide. That's just like a close-up. You can see those little basil plants hanging down now low. And it gets to that shading thing. You know, that basil is going to want to just keep flowering on you all the time. And so by having it kind of in that undergrowth underneath the cucumbers, it's kind of going to grow at the pace that basil really wants to actually grow at. Next slide. So the ones that we actually trialed extensively, and this was a new combination that we did for this project was to enter crops, sweet potatoes and onions and winter squash and garlic. And this was kind of an interesting and somewhat bizarre combination. And you got to kind of get the timing just right on this. But we've done it now for about three years. And it's been tremendously successful. I wouldn't grow any of these four crops any other way at this point. And so how we kind of just stumbled into this combination, all four of these crops present weeding nightmares. Maybe garlic not so much because you can put it in straw. But we have really difficult time managing weeds and vining crops like sweet potatoes and winter squash. When I talked about having 9% organic matter, we grow weeds like you can't believe with 9% organic matter. And so even if we make a cultivation right between when the plants are just around ready to vine out every year, it was just like we're harvesting winter squash in six feet tall lamb's quarter. And same with sweet potatoes. It was just a nightmare every time. And so a lot of the growers that I am in community with, we just saw kind of like we're going to put all our vining crops into landscape fabric. And I felt that the expense of that and the environmental impact of that and just the labor to put that out. I was like, man, that's a lot of all those things just for me to get just those crops. Like I'm going to landscape fabric a huge block for winter squash. And all I'm going to get is, you know, four weeks worth of winter squash or the same with sweet potatoes. So I started to ask myself, how can I get an additional crop out of that investment, both in the fabric and more importantly, in the time of laying it out, stapling it out, putting drip line underneath it. And so I thought about onions and garlic with it. And so that's kind of what led to that kind of idea. And I think I probably highlighted all those points. So we can go to the next slide. So for the garlic winter squash combination, can you go to the next slide? And I'm going to actually back up to this one. This will help with the visualization. This is kind of remember that plants grow in circles, not squares idea. So essentially, we have a 32 inch bed top. The inner row is going to either be the sweet potato plant or the winter squash plant. And we intentionally made it so that the fabric for each of these systems is exactly the same. If you're going to do this, you just kind of get a sheet of plywood with a three inch hole saw on it per drill bit. And then you make this template, and then you put that on top of the fabric, and then you get a little torch that you would use for plumbing or something like that, and touch over each hole and it will melt the fabric underneath. And that will keep the fabric from fraying. And it's also much faster. And so that's how we burnt all the holes in all the fabric. We've used the fabric now for at least three years, maybe four. And it's still in good condition. And my hope is that we can get anywhere between five and 10 years from it. And if you burn the holes, I think that's possible. And so then the inner row is spaced 12 inches slightly all centered. And then the outer rows are spaced quite tightly at six inches. And then that's either going to have a garlic head in it or it's going to have an onion plant in it. We plant onions in sets of two. So two onions per hole. And then you can go back one if you could. So that kind of gets to point one how the spacing works. Winner squash is in the center. And then we secure the fabric with fabric staples, like about every six feet or so. We've had no problem with them blowing away or anything like that. I actually have used 15 foot wide rolls and have continued to use those. If I were to go back in time, I would make them 10 foot wide instead of 15. They get very heavy to move after they've at the end of the year in particular, because there's plant debris. And our beds are 130 feet long. So there's these 130 foot long by 15 foot wide sheets that are just really challenging to move. And so 15 foot wide covers three of our beds. I would make it 10 foot wide and just cover two of the beds. The other trick is when you use the fabric staples at the end of the year, you're better served not to take the fabric staples out of the roll. So when you're pulling it up, just leave the fabric staples right in the fabric. It takes a lot of time to pull them all out. But they actually get a little rusty at the end of them. And that actually helps them stick into the soil much better. When they're really fresh and new, they're like too smooth and they go right into the soil, but they also can like pull out of the soil really quickly. So we actually like staples that have been used for at least a year. And we do put drip irrigation under the fabric. We put two lines down each bed top. Okay, we can go forward again. We can go to the next one. And so a little bit of the timing, you know, garlic is planted in the fall the year before. So that's another nice thing is we have all of our winter squash beds prepped in the fall of the year before, which is nice. I'm always looking to have less to do in the spring because that's a busy time of the year. And so we'll have probably, I think we did 15 beds of this that are 130 foot long. We lay all that out and we plant the garlic into the holes at the edges. And we haven't had any problem with garlic keeping. I've had that question asked before. It does help a little bit if you can get it in in October so that they root out a little bit. Sometimes you, if they don't root out, they can heap a little bit when you do plant garlic and straw, you're less prone to have that because it will be mulch. Then the winter squash is transplanted like around June 28. And this trial, this last year, I think I did it around the 15th. And we use, if we do do butternut squashes, we do delicatas and we do spaghetti. The butternut that I use is a variety of things called Waldo. It's like a hybrid that's about 90 degrees or so. I wouldn't want to put a wall thumb in there that's like 110 days because you might not have enough time. And so we like to plant them a bit later than a lot of people would plant. And so you just want to be kind of cognizant of that. And that gives the garlic plenty of time to kind of take the space. And the trick is you need to have those winter squash not vine out and take up the space before you harvest the garlic. That's a very important thing. And so that's why I'm trying to push that winter squash planting back because we're going to be ready to be harvested until maybe the first week of July or the second week of July. And if you plant the winter squash too early, it will vine out, take the whole space, and then you're going to either have to mess up your vines a lot, and that's not good for the plants. And so kind of pushing that date back is important. Next slide. And so this is kind of how that would then work out. You can see on July 2, they're just kind of getting established. And then July 9, you can tell those winter squash are ready to start taking over the space. And so that's right around when you want to start getting the garlic out. You go to the next slide. And then this is July 16. The garlic's still in. This is the year before this last. We would have actually harvested the garlic around July 16. What we learned in this, and this is in 2019, what we learned is if you wait too long, the garlic can be hard to get out of the ground. And garlic can get a little stuck in the soil if you're not careful with it. And because you have the fabric, you can't get there with a pitch fork or anything to get the garlic out. So you want to make sure your garlic tops aren't browned out completely, because then when you kind of yank on the plant, the whole stalk will just rip off. So if you get the garlic when it's still just starting to brown at the top, it's still actually full size. And I think you get less split garlic when you harvest it at this point. You want to be careful that you don't go too long. And I think in 2019, we let it go too long. And so we went all the way to July 22. I would, and I would have pulled it in July 16. And that is what we did this last year, and that worked better for us. You can also see that winter squash is really starting to take the space at July 22. Next slide. And then we harvested the garlic. And that's what the field looks like afterwards. You can tell we got nice big full size garlic heads. We had the same situation in 2020. We had no small garlic whatsoever. They actually are bigger than what we did before, because they're in that fabric. They don't have any weed pressure on them. I should pause and say that they do have weed pressure on them in that little three inch hole can still grow weeds. So we do have to do some quick like hand weeding around the garlic plants once or twice. It takes about a half a day with three people to do this block that's 130 by 50. So it was, it's totally manageable and within the range of what would make all these crops profitable. That's what the field looked like after. And you can go next slide. And then you can see this is August 15. Now it's just all squash. And you can see how clean that field is for a winter squash field. All I see is winter squash. And so even the holes, even though they had garlic, by that time that they get pulled out, no weeds are going to grow in there. Because they've already, that soil has already been hand-weeded a little bit. And the winter squash just completely dominates the space. Next slide. And then that was some of the butternuts that we pulled from there. We had all great kid's eyes winter squash as well. So it was a great winning combination. Next slide. And then the onion sweet potatoes is there's not a lot different to it. The one difference is the onions are going in in the early spring. So we went in in April 21 in 2019. We did about the same this year. And then in 2019, we put our sweet potatoes out pretty early, I think May 21. And that was because the year before I order my sweet potato slips online, the year before they shipped them two weeks late. And so I ordered for an earlier shift, thinking they were going to do that. And then they came right on time. And so then, unfortunately, May 21 is a little early, I think, for sweet potatoes in Michigan, depending on what May 21 is doing. I like the soil to be fairly warm. And sweet potatoes are pretty wimpy with cold temperatures. So I think June one is your ideal day if you can get your sweet potato slips right on time. One thing that I actually have started doing on that whole sweet potato things is I actually order them earlier and I put them in like they come in these packages of 100. And we put them in four inch pots now, and put a little bit of potting soil on them and just like water them a little bit and keep them in the greenhouse for a week or two. And that actually I think helps the sweet potato recover a little bit because sometimes after they come in the mail, they look really wealthy and bad. And then it's allowed us to time our sweet potato planting with when we want to plant it. And that's both like, hey, it's going to be 30 degrees tonight. We definitely don't want to put sweet potatoes slips out. But then we love to transplant into this black fabric if we know like rain is coming or we'll put overhead irrigation on it because this black fabric gets hot and it's like kind of transplanting into a parking lot was what it can feel like. And so if it's like June one and it's 90 degrees and sunny for like six days, that can be really tough on your transplants unless you put overhead irrigation on it. So even though we have drip irrigation underneath, we have portable overhead and a lot of times we'll bring that over if there isn't like cloudy rainy day on the forecast or something like that. Next slide. That's what it looked like in June 20. We probably would have done like a quick hand weeding at this point, but you can see the onions are really taking the space and you got little sweet potatoes in there. Next slide. That's June 28. You can see how clean the field is because of that fabric. And because we've done one one hand weeding pass. Next slide. So that's July one. Now the onions are really starting to to bulb up for us. Next slide. That's July nine. And you can tell we missed like we did one hand weeding I think this year in 2019. And we didn't do a second one and we didn't do it quite perfect enough. And you can see some weed next slide. Just look at this July nine and remember how clean it was this slide before, but we'll go to the next slide. Oh, okay. So they're sizing up. You can see a little bit of grass coming around those onions. Next slide. That's August second. And that's the harvesting and you barely see anything but grass. So in only two weeks, the garlic, my poor intern there, harvesting these onions and grass that was like four feet tall. I went on vacation for a week and we lost total control of that field. And so we did not have this problem in 2020 because we made sure we did that second hand weeding and we made sure it was very clean because we really can grow weeds in our fields, especially grass. And the problem is you can't you can't really pull the grass out once it gets somewhat established because the onions are bulging up at that time. And it's terrible to disrupt onion roots when they're trying to bulb up and they bulb up on equinox. You don't really want to mess with them at that point. And so that would be fine. We still got great big size onions in 2019. But all that grass really shaded the sweet potatoes and that was not good. And so in 2019, we didn't have a very good sweet potato yield in 2020. We didn't have it. And that was because we made sure that we kept those those holes really clean. Next slide. That was the crew that harvested all those onions and took out all of those grass as well to reclaim the sweet potatoes. But that was a lot of work and it was it was terrible. But it was a hardworking crew. Next slide. Then the sweet potatoes did kind of emerge and reclaim the space back. And next slide. And they did okay. This was probably one of the best plants in the lot. We still got a lot of sweet potatoes. But in comparison to this year, I think, you know, we were probably getting like 300 pounds on 130 foot row and we can we were probably doing more like 500 or 600 pounds of sweet potatoes per row this year. And a lot of them that are like two pounds sweet potatoes. So keeping the weeds clean is important. Next slide. And so there's a little bit more of this kind of the sweet potatoes. Next slide. Conclusions. Both methods can definitely work. It's very important to hand weed consistently. It's a lot of work to move the 15 fabrics. So like I said, I would go back to the 10 foot wide. I think I've already mentioned that, you know, transplanting a cool rainy day or having overhead irrigation is important. And it's a lot of work to set up the fabric. You know, it's probably like three people the whole day to kind of set up all that fabric. But I think about time in two things as a farmer. I think about overall time, but I think about time and important points of time. And so whenever I can get more time in the middle of the season, I'm better served. And so if I can set up my entire field for winter squash and garlic in November and not have to do anything other than just stick winter squash plants in a hole in June, and I have a million other things to do, I've really done something that needs to be done. And so I think that's one of the advantages of the fabric and of the system. Next slide. Just my contact info and I'm happy to, I'm not sure what my time and limit was, and I'm happy to take any questions. Thanks, Lance. That was great. We've got four questions for you. First question from Ned is, do you water and what is your source of water on the farm? Yep. So yeah, we definitely water with that drip irrigation generally, but then we do have portable overhead lines to, we do have a well and so then yeah, we water from a well. Great. Next question from Melanie. Where do you get your compost? Do you make it on site or do you import it? And if you import it onto the farm, what's your average cost? We bring in at least one dump truck of compost, like a 20-yard dump truck a year. We used to bring in a tandem. So it's like a train, like a dump truck with two things on it. So it's a 40-yard yard load. Our first couple of years, we were actually bringing in two tandems. It's about, I think a single load is about $600 delivered and a double tandem is about $1,000 delivered. And then we, I don't know, is this broadcast like nationally or how local is this? I don't know. In Michigan, we use Morgan's compost for our soil amendments. And so I'll, I use Crop Service International. They give me a soil recommendation based off of the biology of the soil. And then I send that over to Morgan's and get a custom blend mix. We have plenty of phosphorus, so we never put that in. We use other meal generally for our Nitrogen. And then it's really more of kind of trace stuff like magnates and a little bit of boron, a little bit of potash every so often. And so I'll get a 2,000 pound tote with my potting soil from them at the beginning of the year. So I don't have to pay for a separate shipping cost. That's about $500 for the three acres. And then we space that so it's like a half a bucket per bed to put those down. And so that's kind of what I'm doing for our amendments. Great. Thanks. And then last question. Actually, I have two more questions. Do you train your peas up the trellis? And if so, how much labor does that require? No, the peas and the peas ample beings have their own ability to grow up the net. So basically those are eight foot green tea posts. And then they actually have a little thing on the top of them for an electric fence cap. And then there's a braided, like a seven braid steel wire that runs along the top. And then the nets have a string then that gets wrapped around the top of that fabric. Those nets, you can buy them in Johnny's like, you know, seven foot tall nets that are seven inches squared or whatever. But you do need to have some kind of top steel cable to secure those nets to or they'll rip down off the tea posts every time. And we do those nets for all three of the crops, the peas, beans, and we actually do our cherry tomatoes in those nets as well. The cherry tomatoes we do need to train. We actually use tomato clips and clip the cherry tomatoes right into the nets. And then they'll grow through the nets quite a bit, but you do need to manage the cherry tomatoes. But with the peas and pole beans, they'll completely self manage themselves. So there's no labor there. Cucumbers will actually manage themselves up as well. So unless you want to prune your cucumbers, we don't prune our cucumbers, they just grow up the net on their own accord. Great. Thank you. That's a lot of great advice. Do you know whether or not landscaping fabric is allowed in certified organic farming? We aren't certified organic, so I can't say for sure. But for my knowledge, it should be okay. I know JM48 who is certified organic is using that a lot. I know Curtis Stone is using a lot of landscape fabric. I believe he's certified organic. I only know that plastic should not be left over a year in organic rules. So I don't know how that would pertain to landscape fabric. So maybe there would be an issue with the landscape fabric overwintering. I doubt it though. I think you should be fine. Yeah, that's my understanding too. You can use plastics, but not the biodegradable ones, and you can't leave them in long term in the soil. So let that break down.