 Welcome to Clock Talk on Think Tech. I'm Crystal here. You know, as you may have seen from my previous shows, I love focusing on women and culture, but what I really love doing is focusing on celebrating women who break norms. So today we're going to be talking about Asian American women back in the golden like 50s, back to like 40s too, and how this group of women really dared and used their bodies to dance through life and entertain and break through this kind of stereotypical image of what Asian American is to be. So I'm going to welcome our two wonderful guests today who flew in for some special events. Let me introduce my first guest. He is, well, get this. Okay, so he is the first Chinese American TV sportscaster. I didn't know that, Chinese American. And the first Asian American male full-time anchor in San Francisco. So if you're familiar with San Francisco newscasting and you ever watched the sports, you must have seen Rick Kwan. Rick, welcome. Thank you. You know, of course I work right here at KITV too. I can know that. So hopefully some of the viewers will recognize me from there. You're local. I know, yeah. That's right. You've got ties with Roy. And Rick is a documentarian. And the reason I pulled him here today is because he has directed this film, a documentary on Dorothy Toy. And we're going to get to who Dorothy Toy is in a bit, but let me introduce my other guest. So this beautiful lady also from San Francisco just flew in last night who looks fresh as a flower today. Entertainer, apparently a magician assistant. I want to hear about that. And also a dancer in Dorothy Toy's group during the days. And you still are doing that with giving back and performing for seniors and veterans and all these wonderful people. So thank you for coming. Cynthia, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So is this your first time in Hawaii? No, I've been here many, many times. I love Hawaii. Yeah. You look like you live here anyway. Which I did. So let's talk about the Asian American identity first, because both of you are, right? Yes. Can we talk about the representation of female Asians, you know, in general, let's go back to when you grew up and whether you thought that was kind of an issue. Well, I think being a dancer was very, very different for many families and many of my friends, they were actually, they were not allowed to join our show. And this was in the 60s when I joined Dorothy Toy. And definitely many of my friends wanted to be a dancer, but definitely their parents said no, no. Yeah, especially because of what type of dancing, right? I mean, this beautiful photo. Rick, tell us who Dorothy Toy was. Well, Dorothy Toy was one of the finest Asian American dancers. I shouldn't even just say Asian American. This dancer's period of the 20th century with their partner there, as you can see, Paul Wing. They formed the duo of Toy and Wing. They performed throughout the U.S. They were the first Asian Americans to dance on Broadway at the London Palladium. They traveled around the world and appeared in some Hollywood films also. So what kind of dancing was it? How do you say, how do you? I don't know, what would you call it? How do you describe it? They were ballroom and cabaret, which is also very different. Because in those days all you saw were the typical either kabuki dancing or Chinese folk dancing, but never showing their legs and doing these stunts that Dorothy did. They are very acrobatic though too. Yes. People, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Nicholas Brothers, right? Nicholas Brothers. Paul Wing would do these tricks on the dance floor. Is that where they spin? Spin, and they're like... Spin and... Flips. Like a mania, yes. I saw clips of your film where Dorothy Toy was doing these things on point. It was just crazy. It was almost like a Russian style. Yes, almost like a Cossack style. She had very strong legs. Her teacher noticed that she had this almost unique style that she could dance this way. So she became a star pupil when she was very young. And her teacher would spotlight her in different presentations because of her strength in her legs like that. Okay. But so how did it... How did we go from ballroom to adding a little bit of kind of risque, little kind of sexy moves, and how did this become like... How did this breakthrough into the industry, and when did Broadway finally recognize and say, wow, this is interesting. This isn't just like Asian dolls. They actually can dance. I think because of her strong legs, the choreographer definitely staged these dances for them. And it was so unusual, again, to see Asian dancers to do these acrobatic movements. Right. And so that's how they became stars. Okay. Yeah. But Cynthia... I'm sorry. Dorothy was... She was not Chinese, right? She was actually Japanese. She just passed away recently. Yes, this past summer. Wow. Right. And so there's a lot of highlight in celebrating her life. When she first moved to just enter the industry, how did the Asian population accept her? Because, you know, Hollywood said, wow, this is a new thing. This is really interesting. We'll show her on Broadway. But what did the Asians say? Well, I know when she was getting started, you know, a lot of people looked down on her because Asian women and entertainment, that was not really considered respectable. Exactly. And a lot of support from her mother in pursuing this dance career. So that helped her a lot. Do you think that has anything to do with being Americanized? That freedom of expression, the idea that you own your own body, you can use it, you don't have to worry about what you're being presented as? I think Dorothy was just different. She just had a certain spirit about her. Oh, okay. Well, if you have a chance to watch the video, it's really... You're a very strong person. Strong person. Not just strong legs. Correct. You believe that to catapult through things. Yes. So, Cynthia, you were also a very strong person. Talk about how you entered the dance world. Well, I was very lucky. At the age of 10, I actually lived in the same apartment building as Dorothy Toy. Oh. And it was Dorothy that sent me to ballet school. Oh. And so after graduation, one summer day, she called my mom and asked if I could join her show. She just coordinated a show to go on the road. And I joined for the summer thinking that I would start my college education in the fall, but it never happened. So I just continued to be a dancer with Dorothy and traveled with her for at least 10 years. So this was the beautiful photo. When was this? Was this like a... This was in 1967 when I was running for Miss Chinatown. Oh. Wonderful. And was this the part of the talent for the pageant? Yes and no. Dorothy had choreographed the dance for me to do for the talent portion, but this is a photo from the Dorothy Toy show. I see. So did you have to learn different forms of dance for the show? I did. Like this is kind of like that real 60s thing, right? Yes. Yes. This is a dance from the show Big Spender. Oh, wonderful. That's you in the middle? That's correct. Wow. I love it because it's such a, you know, this is an American setup really, right? But you're using Asian bodies. Right. And you will recognize in the center is Jimmy Borges. Oh. Oh, very popular here in Hawaii. Yes, right. That's right. Wow. So how did that feel? I mean this is just an amazing kind of untold pocket of Asian American history, right? Really. Yes. Americans is just a model minority. They're the good students or the real world workers who came over. We talked about that before. A lot of dream and restaurant workers. Right. So let's bring in the dancers. Well everywhere we went, you know, when we traveled throughout the world, people were just amazed at our group. We had about 10 of us traveling and to have music from the 40s and, you know, American songbook. This was all different. So I think that's why we were so popular. We lasted so long. But did you have pressures of creating some kind of more oriental Asian themed pieces for, you know, western audience? We did have a burlesque number and that was the most popular. Oh, really? Everywhere that we went. Burlesque wasn't. It was very burlesque. Absolutely. We're no nudity, right? Oh, she's just laughing. Oh, baby. Yeah, how did it? Yes, it was very suggestive and a little bit risqué, but very, very well done. It was choreographed by Dorothy. And what happens is that the center girl, the feature dancer, is dressed in the robe, Chinese robe, Chinese dress and many things underneath. Okay. And as she takes it off, she hands it off to her assistants. And so at the end of the dance, she is basically undressed and her two assistants are dressed. Wow. It's really nice. It's a really nice number. I would like to bring it back. I wish I had photos of that in the chair. I haven't seen it either. What kind of audience would go to these shows? All Caucasian, very few Asians. Of course, in the 1960s, there were hardly any Chinese or Asians wherever we went. You know, throughout Canada, when you talk about Halifax, Nova Scotia. That's where you read. They drove all the way across Canada. All across, five times. I've been across that highway one, five times. And did they treat you as Asians or as Americans? Yes. We were very well received, the Chinese actually, wherever we went, even if they did not come to the show, because we would be on the same time as the restaurant workers, right? But they would always cook for us. And so after the show, they would invite us down to the restaurant and give us all this native food, things that we wouldn't get a chance to eat otherwise. Wow. So there was also a cultural experience for you to be able to go to these places that you normally would never have gone. Yes. Right? Yes. Yeah. Rick, what do you think, I mean, if you were an audience back in those days and you watched a group of, like in the photos, these beautiful Asian girls doing things that you thought, okay, my mom never kind of did that. Well, you know, I think at that time, I remember people like Nancy Kwan who performed in Flower Drums. Right. I was my favorite growing up. Yeah. I think every young Asian American boy had a crush on Nancy Kwan because she was, you know, she was sexy. She was modern. She was Americanized. But she wasn't sexy in a vulgar way. She was sexy in an innocent, cute way, right? Yeah. But she did that. Remember that dance with the towel on? Oh, the fans. Yeah. Right. Fans, fans, fans. I enjoyed being a girl. I enjoyed, yes. So, you know, we got glimpses of that. Okay. But I never had a chance to enjoy their performance. Right. But I think growing up in America, you know, we like seeing Asian American women kind of breaking that stereotype, being the, you know, demure, shy, modest type. Yeah. You know, somebody who, you know, was sexy. Yeah. Do you think that's a specifically Asian American thing? You know, if you're in Asia and in those days, if people danced like that over there, it would be even more shundan, right? I mean, there's the whole Chinese image of the wife or whore, right? The binary. And I don't think we can really crack that. It's so deeply rooted, these images. So, when you have something like this, when you see Asians and it's like, but it's Hollywood and it's beautiful, but they're like revealing, you know, it's really complicates how we're supposed to see Asian women. That's very true. I am producing the Chinatown Burlesque in San Francisco. And would you believe I have two beautiful dancers coming in from New York, another from Chicago, one from Seattle, San Diego, and Hawaii. And it's an art form that has been revisited. Right. Yeah. I think she's trying to approach, you know, there's this, what is it, this Asian woman fetish, you know? Yes, yes. That you kind of straddle between being respectable, but also being, I don't know. Exotic? Exotic and stereotypical, the subservient Asian woman that type of thing. Right. So, yeah. I don't know how you straddle that. Yeah. I mean, even today, do you feel like Asian American women are depicted sufficiently? There's no visibility, first of all. There's really none. I mean, there's like a, not even a handful of representation. But think about it. Like, how, why is it that Hollywood's kind of constructed this image of what they want, they want to see? Back in the days in San Francisco, before your time, weren't those nightclubs, they had that one, was that one? For Red in City? Yes. So, was it all white people who went to watch these and there was kind of an exotic kind of variety? I would say 80 percent white. 80 percent white. We had a lot of tour buses come in. We have five tour groups. Wow. And they would come in just to watch, because I heard there's this kind of myth, right? There's these people in the old days who have no idea. They think that Asians are built differently down there. I didn't know we were going there. Tourists? Why do you think... Why do you think they brought bustles of people gawking and wanting to go into these busts? Yes. They wanted to see sexy ladies. Yes. You're right. You're right. Again, you know... Showing your legs, you know. The whole world of Susie Wong thing, too. They had that stereotype. Yes. So, it built from, again, the Hollywood construction of the Asian woman. So, let's take a quick break. Think about that kind of juicy images of like beautiful, sexy Asian American women. It's like, wow, this is kind of a thing that they think about. So, we're celebrating the body, too. So, when we come back, we're going to continue talking about the body, talking about how we can dance through life using the body in so many different ways as Cynthia here really can vouch for. So, don't go away. We'll be back. Aloha. I'm your host Sharon Thomas Yarbrough of Sister Power here at Think Tech of IE. And Sister Power is all about motivating, empowering, educating, and inspiring all people. And we have various subjects here. Sister Power is here at Think Tech every other Thursday at 4 p.m. Again, my name is Sharon Thomas Yarbrough, host of Sister Power. We look forward to seeing you. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me at sistersandpowerandcavaii at gmail.com. Look forward to chatting with you soon. Aloha. Hi, I'm Rusty Kamori, host of Beyond the Lines. I was the head coach for the Punahou Boys varsity tennis team for 22 years, and we're fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championship. This show is based on my book, which is also titled Beyond the Lines, and it's about leadership, creating a superior culture of excellence, achieving and sustaining success, and finding greatness. If you're a student, parent, sports or business person, and want to improve your life and the lives of people around you, tune in and join me on Mondays at 11 a.m. as we go Beyond the Lines on Think Back Hawaii. Aloha. Welcome back. I'm Crystal, and I'm here with Rick Kwan and Cynthia Yi talking about the wonderful spirits of these Asian-American women dancing and entertaining. Back in the 50s and 60s, Cynthia is still entertaining now and talking about kind of the stereotypes of how Asian women are portrayed in Hollywood, in the States, and how we break those norms by providing our own spaces and creating things. So we were talking about Dorothy Toy, right? Rick, you directed this documentary about her, and a lot of people don't know who she was. She was, like, really kind of a barrier-breaking woman. A lot of people call her the Asian Ginger Rogers. Okay. She kind of put it in context of what she was thought of. Right, right. And I keep having this image of my head of her on her point shoes doing these amazing dances. So people can Google her because it's really quite impressive. And Cynthia danced with them, and you performed with Dorothy Toy in her group. But let's bring it out a little bit more on, because we started hitting on the representation and kind of the respectability of a dancer, because the suggestions of the body, you know, Chinese think that a married, proper woman would never reveal her body. And yet here we're celebrating the strength of a body. Dorothy Toy's strong thighs. Nice to open up a crack of the chagosum to see a beautiful leg. I mean, why is that exploiting? Is it because of the way we are, we want to see it. Like, okay, Chinese women should just be covered up. That's a very Chinese way of seeing things, right? I think many of my mother's friends, they kept on asking her why she would let her daughter go on the road and show her body. And things like that. Why didn't I become a pharmacist or a school teacher? Did you ever question it yourself? And why you defied that expectation? No, I always wanted to be a dancer. I wanted to travel. I enjoyed my life with Dorothy. It was most wonderful. So you didn't feel at any point exploited or you felt like the way people looked at you was not looking at you as a dancer, but as a body. Did you feel that at all? Not really. No. There are always... Well, not really. Because there's always going to be those, you know, hams up low. There's always going to be those dirty old men who are going to see a show for the wrong reasons anyway. Without the dirty old men, we would not have an audience. Is that why you're performing at the senior home? Yeah. We're going to perform for Jack Seon. And he used to own all the night clubs here in Honolulu. That's amazing. And he was the first one to bring Berlesque to Hawaii. Tell us more. So what was the history of Berlesque in Hawaii that you know of? Well, Jack Seon broke a lot of barriers and he was arrested 40 times. 40? 40. 40 times we're having a nude lady serving lunch at his castaway... Asians? Many of them were. He had even one that he built as Miss Hawaii. Oh. Uh-huh. And everyone came, you know... Castaways. ...for their lunch. It was... Where's that? It was a fancy nightclub out at the airport. Did you know that's my... That's a documentary idea here, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He really... He's very active right now and he was honored at the Berlesque Hall of Fame this year. There's a Berlesque Hall of Fame. Uh-huh. That's wonderful. Yes. And so he invited us here to Hawaii to do a show at Arcadia about a few months ago. Uh-huh. And of course the audience just loved us and so we're going back on Thursday. Wonderful. Okay. So I hope people have a chance to see this Berlesque. But now that we're talking about Asian bodies again, you know, that sexual component, right? Again, going back to the... What, fifties? Was this... What year was this? This was 1963. We were in Montreal. Are you in that photo? I'm right in the center. Oh, my goodness. You can't recognize her? I'm talking about celebrating. I'm fixated on that. So many problems to go. I don't understand. I'm not looking at their faces. You're right. Neither am I. But let's look at this. I mean, this was the 1960s and these are Asian women. Yes. And you're celebrating beautiful bodies. Yes. Right? Yes, that's true. There's no exploitation involved and yet, you know, people like to read into this like, oh, again, this Asian thing. Like, we're not supposed to be doing this. Right. How did you feel? I don't know. I felt pretty wonderful. That's what I want to hear. I mean, you felt good about your body, right? Yes, yes. Well, sex sells, you know. But they weren't selling sex, right? Well, I mean, not completely. It's a border, yeah. It's a fine line, huh? It's a fine line. It's a fine line. You're right, you're right. Yeah, yeah. How do you feel about the new pageants where they had the rule where they don't have the bathing soup competition anymore? You know, that's a new thing. Yeah. I mean, I miss it. I mean, women work very hard to stay in shape and if, you know, if you do that, then I don't see it. As long as it's tastefully done, you can do a one-piece bathing suit. Right. They have done two-piece bathing suits for a long time. Right? Yeah. Do you think they should do away with the bathing suit portion, though? Yeah. How do you feel about that? I think if it's done properly, it's fine. Right. You know. And it's also how you own up to your own body, right? Right, right. You know, when you're in your prime and you feel good about your body, like you said, you know, you work hard on your body. Yeah. You should be proud of it. Where is the exploitation? Is it the viewer who feels like they're exploding you or is it you feeling like you're, you know, revealing something that's not proper? Where do you draw that line, right? Right. I don't know, it's up to the pageants, but, you know, it's fairer than me too and things like that. Oh, yeah. See. It's difficult. Yes, that's true. Yeah. People show more on the beach. Yeah. Exactly. But my teenage daughter, because all the friends have these like tiny little tea bags. Yes. She has to wear one. I was like, oh, that's funny. Now why? Now I feel like I'm being the old-fashioned foolish mom. Like, your mom pulled on your aunts who said, oh, are you sure you want to do that? Yeah. Why are you allowing your aunts? Yeah. So you've taken this and you've kind of continued it. You didn't think, okay, well that was my youthful days when I had a beautiful body. I still have a beautiful body now. I love dancing. How do I carry that on in my career? Talk about that. We don't do burles or anything like that. I produce burles shows. Okay. But in our show, we do things that are pretty tasteful. And my oldest dancer is 84 years old and our youngest is 70. What? So, you know, we don't do things with the disrespect. But how did you guys get started? How did we get started? I think Dorothy Toy called me up and says, you know, they need a number for the Chinese hospital auxiliary fundraiser. And so we got together and Dorothy was involved and we did our first show, which was a big hit because many of the people that came to the fundraiser, they had patronized Forbidden City Night Club and they just loved this. And to this day, you know, I have what we call Open Mic in Chinatown and all the songs are from the American Songbook and Frank Sinatra and whatnot. And I have doctors and dentists. They love to sing, believe it or not. They never had the chance to do it. And they're all there and they're 90 years old now. Wow. That's really, so that's, it's not just the dancing. You're bringing in people who want to connect to the old days, memories, right? Yes, yes. Kind of a time, a bygone time. There's a lot of history. Yes, it's nice to see older people come out and enjoy themselves tapping their feet. Yes. So you're doing more than just entertaining. You're doing a lot more than that. I coordinate a lot of entertainment in Chinatown. I've done the Autumn Moon Festival for 30 years. Uh-huh. And I just, it's very enjoyable for me. I think the impact is deeper though, right Rick? I mean, would you say that? I mean, people like Cynthia going out there and creating these opportunities for older women to perform, you know, and not just to the older audience, but that we can still give. Yeah. It's very inspirational. Yes. As you mentioned, some older women are in their 80s, you know, and they're still out there performing and dancing. And all retired school teachers, my whole group are retired school teachers because their parents did not allow them to become a dancer. It was something, no, no. Yeah. So I'd like to feel like, you know, they're keeping the spirit of Gordy Toya alive by still performing in that same vein. Yes. Right. Yes. If you had something to tell the younger generation who still maybe have restricting parents who just want to push them into, you know, the academics because that's the only way to succeed and it's the only way to be a proper, you know, child growing up, what would you say to the parents, first of all? And then what would you say to the kids that is kind of breaking boundaries? I think definitely you should have an education so you have something to fall back on. But follow your dream. If you have a passion for something, go ahead and do it. But do it after you get your degree. Please, your parents first. Okay. Okay. After that, you're on your own. Okay. Okay. Good tip. What about to the parents? All these, like hovering. Let them do it. Let them do it. It's fine. They're, some of them are in college right now and they want to be an artist, you know. And I said, let them do it. They've got their education. It's okay. They have their degree. They could be an attorney when they come back from New York. Right. Let them search on their path, right? They need to. Right. Rick, do you have anything to say about that? As far as pursuing your dream? Yes. I mean, as an Asian being so underrepresented in media. Right. You know, I, even my parents, when I told them I wanted to become a broadcast journalist, you know, at the time, there weren't that many, or many Asian women, perhaps, but not very many Asian men in the business. Interesting. So it was, you know, it took a little while for them to get used to the idea of me pursuing that type of career. But as I progressed and, you know, did better and moved up because, you know, this is what he's meant to do. And so it worked out. So you persevere and you don't let anything kind of push you away from... Yeah. I just felt like this, even from a young age, I always thought I'd be working in communication somehow, in the media somehow. And so I pursued that, even though there weren't that many role models out there. And it turned out okay. Yeah, it turned out okay. It did okay. It did okay. And you reflecting on, you know, Cynthia and Dorothy through your research, you really kind of have a new gain of respect for Asian-American women. And their kind of, you know, perseverance to do things that they wanted to do, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I met Dorothy through different community events in San Francisco. And, you know, when I finally decided to make this documentary and started to realize just all the things she did, it just like, wow, this woman really deserves that recognition. And so if you ever have a chance, you know, you can search up your film, learn about her, learn about people like Cynthia who's out there still doing things for new audiences and still performing in and being a proud Asian-American female and embracing our bodies to do things that we're passionate about. So I hope you think about that. Enjoy what you have and give back and do everything to celebrate who you are. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you. And have a great day and go dancing. Thank you.