 It shouldn't really matter. Are we running the PowerPoint, or are we getting the other one? Okay. All right, ladies and gentlemen. We are going to come to the final talk of today's first day at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2018 in Belfast. And once again, a big thank you to our sponsors, Family Tree DNA, for sponsoring this event, and for my fellow colleagues in ISOG for volunteering to speak and also to assist with the DNA testing at the Family Tree DNA stand outside. Also, thank you to all our viewers on Facebook, which has been a very, very successful initiative undertaken by our IT guru, Gerard Corprin. So a big thank you to Gerard for organizing that and making the conference available worldwide. And it gives me great pleasure to introduce our final speaker, Brad Larkin. Now, Brad is the editor of the CERNA and DNA Journal. He is the volunteer administrator of the Larkin DNA project, among others, and a member of the ISOG and the Southern California Geological Society. Brad has written quite a few articles, which include the DNA of the British monarchy, as well as articles relating to his own Larkin project, and you can find them in the CERNA and DNA Journal, which is freely available online. And that's another great service provided by Brad, a very valued member of our international genetic genealogy community. So please give a big welcome for Brad Larkin. Thank you so much, Morris. Good afternoon. Thank you all for hanging in there. I guess it's been an exciting day of genetic genealogy, but I know some of you have been here a little while. If you need a snack or whatever, you're not going to offend me if you need to eat it now. That's fine. So, keep her going. Thanks for reminding me. I mostly need to. So what I was going to talk to you today is I kind of combined a couple of different presentations I've done in the past. Some on the British monarchy, where we have wide DNA results for them, as well as some of the things we found about clans and genetic genealogy history of Ireland. So basically, if you think about it, we think of clans kind of as kinship groups, and Scott's Ulster could be another kind of clan, you could say. And so people want to know how do I fit in or what is this group? So there are different kinds of... I'm going to review just a little bit here. I know you've probably seen all this some before, but just to recap in case there's anybody that... Is there anybody that... How many of you have had SNP SNP testing on your own lines before? Okay, quite a lot. How many of you have had STRs, but maybe not the SNP packs or the big Y? Okay, one. Okay. And how many have not done any DNA testing as part of the genealogy work and are trying to figure out how to get into it? Okay, fair enough. So a good mix. So just to recap, the white DNA has a long timeline of its history because it's passed down the parts we're talking about are passed down from father to son. So chronologically or from a time perspective, it's a very long duration marker. Autosomal comes from all your ancestors and so it's very informative. It has a lot more different sources of your ancestry, but the signal tends to get... Because there's recombination or mixing with every generation. It's like you don't look exactly like your brother or sister probably or you may have one that you do or don't. The signal gets weak after about five generations or so, five to eight. So it's hard to go back into, you know, far into the surname you're with autosomal. You can do wonderful things with autosomal and we're going to look at some autosomal results. But that's why folks like James and myself have done a lot of work around the Y chromosome because we're trying to look at, you know, could this clad or this group or this surname all have come from one ancestor or how many? And then that long time period of that history gives us to us. So I'm going to go on and tell you a conclusion first before I go into the details. And that is that these Y DNA lineage has started several thousand years ago as James had illustrated neatly with a marker and they've been mixing a lot since then on the island of Ireland and throughout the British Isles and through Western Europe to a degree. So there's been a lot of mixing and we see a lot of diversity there. I'm a big proponent of the big Y and similar next generation DNA test because those are connecting from the bottom to the end of the tree and we are literally discovering new markers within families now about every week. Like I found one on a Larkin line just last week that was brand new. So they're literally coming in one or two a week now. We'll talk a little bit more about how that works now. So my general recommendation for testing might be a little different from James's. I would say get a Y37 test done on all the males that are significant lineages in your genealogy, your father or your grandfather or cousins that are male. And then where you can or what makes sense, get the big Y test. So even though it's expensive, you get a lot more markers. A big Y test has about 12 million or more markers on it. A Y37 has 37 markers on it, right? So it's way more information. The other thing about the products, I'm going to talk a little bit more about the products is people are talking about these DNA products, you know, Y37 and big Y and all this stuff. What happens is that it used to be the testing S&P markers was very expensive. So it was done very economically and they used STR markers that were less expensive to kind of get started. And that's what got us started on the first 10 years of genetic genealogy. Now with the big Y test where we can test millions of markers, you get more markers initially than you know what to do with. That's true. You get novel variants and things you can't explain. But what's happening over time is more people get it. We're starting to see where they start to fit into the trees and so forth. So it's a process of discovering with big Y, you're getting probably most every marker on the mail that you need. The SNP packs that James was talking about, they are better, they're good values, but they have to already, those markers have to already be discovered. Like the lab has to know about them, they have to test those markers, then they put together about 100 markers that are done with Sanger sequencing. And so 100% they know what those are. The thing is they don't discover anything new with SNP packs. It has to already be discovered. It's the same with your autosomal results from like 23andMe or whatever. Those marker spots on our DNA are pre-defined 10 years ago and that's all they test. They don't discover new stuff. The big Y actually discovers new stuff because it looks at a whole huge long chain of your white DNA. And eventually we're going to do the same thing across all your chromosomes with full genomic sequencing, which I had done for about $900 here last year. And then you're going to look at millions of markers across all your chromosomes. So you're going to be able to do the same thing. So what I look at it is the techniques and the things we're learning now with the Y, they're going to be adapted and implemented on other chromosomes too in the future. This is just kind of where we started. So a little bit going back to DNA and mapping. So I wanted to try and kind of show you kind of where I feel the current state of the art is. Definition of British Isles, I gave a presentation in Dublin a couple years ago and somebody got very politically charged about my use of the term British Isles. I'm going to go with what's on Wikipedia, which is the British Isles encompasses all these islands, the island of Britain, Ireland, Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey. So when I say British Isles as a genetic genealogist, I'm talking about these physical masses that have been around for thousands of years. The Republic of Ireland is only about 102 years old, so that's almost not on our radar as genetic genealogists. So we're looking at everything genetically, not politically, so if you think there's a political thing in here, there's not. They're going to present, I think, but there's been some geographic projects done in the UK and now in Ireland with the Irish DNA Atlas project, and it's real credit to Mars that he's got them going to come and talk tomorrow, I think, about their results in detail. But they used autosomal data and they tried to figure out how to separate groups both in England with the people in the British Isles, and then also now there's an Irish DNA one that's put out. And so they kind of came up with this plot. And if you focused in on Ireland, then you'd get something that sort of looks like that. And so, you know, they have these traditional provincial borders of Ulster product, Leicester and Munster, and then they have these different symbols here for the types. And this is online in their study, or you can hear them talk in detail about it tomorrow, but I really recommend that you do. So as I was reflecting now on, okay, I'm going to kind of talk to you about clans in history. I wanted to see how does this new development with the Irish DNA Atlas relate to the clans stuff. So this is a map from Wikipedia that is kind of an idea of what the clans might have been about 1,500 years ago in medieval. And so you've got things like Southern O'Neill, Art Gala, Roulet, Northern O'Neill, Conop Munster, and these traditional, you know, sort of tribal or names for these. So this is a map of the diocese of Ireland, just to show for illustration. It looks a little different, right, than that traditional province. It has some similarities, but it has some differences. Killaloo is a very long diocese that runs from parts of Conop Munster and Leedster as provinces. So it's a little different than you probably don't see that map that often. So now let's kind of start to think about the DNA projects. So what I did was I kind of colored the primary group in different sections of Ireland based on what the DNA project found. So I didn't do dots, I sort of did colors and areas. This is sort of how those groups lay out as the principal, you know, autosomal group in different parts of Ireland. So one of the things I noticed is in some areas, you know, you do get sort of corresponds to this old, but in a lot of ways you don't know, this one stretches across here. This one stretches way across here like the diocese of Killaloo kind of does. It's not just cut uniquely into quarters, although maybe Munster and Leedster are a little bit. But so I want to see, where is it, the same where is it different? This is overlaying my paint of the Irish DNA Atlas data with the diocese map. And so, like I said, some of these dioceses kind of run this way. Maybe it's a sign of continuity. Let's take a look at it and see what we see. Any questions or comments? Because I don't have the great insight on this, but I thought, let me just put this together, throw it up and see what we see. Okay. Now, in addition to the Larkin DNA project, I also run some called mapping DNA projects where we're not looking at surname so much. We're more trying to look at geographical location of people. And we work extra hard to try and plot where their ancestor came from on a map, the earliest known ancestor. And so, we took that data and then we classified it into kind of groups of wide, and now this is all wide DNA, different wide DNA groups, and put them on a map of Ireland. And, you know, are there patterns there? What do you think? Mmm. Kind of not, huh? Right. So I think that's kind of, I think there's, you know, there's some small patterns, but there's no big global general pattern, right? I don't see one. Maybe somebody else does. And I'll say, okay, let's overlay that wide DNA data with the Irish DNA Atlas, kind of my paint of the areas of primary autosomal ancestry. And, you know, is there, you know, the thing is a lot of these groups are found in all different parts of Ireland. So that kind of led me to the conclusion that the DNA has been mixing for a long time on these islands for thousands of years. And while it's interesting to find genetic markers that typify a certain clan or whatever, we can really almost never say, this type of DNA means you're in this clan, because that clan was actually made up of people with multiple DNA markers. It's just like James demonstrated so brilliantly with his urban project. There's many different kinds of people, DNA-wise, that have the urban surname. Okay. So I've kind of come to the same conclusion, looking in a different way across many surnames and across clans. But with that said, there are some interesting, you know, ones that have been found, and so I'm going to share them with you in terms of kind of interest. So I'm going to look kind of at four regions of Ireland and Ulster. There was an ancient kingdom called the Dalriada. They brought Christianity and Gaelic language with them to Scotland. And so a lot of people in YD and H&M genealogy were trying to, you know, find markers for them. And what they found is while they weren't all the same type, a lot of them had the L1065 marker. So I know there's a lot of numbers here. It doesn't really matter. It means that if you have the L1065, you're highly likely to be descended from this group because they've tested a lot of lineages that they think go back to Kenneth Macalpin, King of the Scots. We're going to kind of keep it moving along here. The Unile, of course, is very famous because of Dan Bradley's study. And they found what we call the M222 marker. But we also found that while some of the kings of Tara were M222, there's another lineage that came to the throne also. And by triangulation, we think that's a D of 27 marker, which is a little different group. So again, there's a lot of people in Ireland who carry the M222, which we associate with the Unile, but not all the people that were O'Neill's actually carry that same marker. It's diversity. There's MPEs. There's history that sometimes maybe was synthesized just a little bit. Now here in the north, the Ergiola, they were a distinct kingdom said to be settled by three brothers called the three Colas. And some historians, some of the great historians of Irish history, thought they existed. Some thought they were names for Nile and Ilocke's sons. And some thought they were different. We're finding a clear evidence of a common genetic signature that's very common throughout the north of Ireland here that we think is associated with the three Colas. And they now have this broken down into 21 different groups. So they've come so far with thanks to the big why of that. They have a tree kind of like James's Tree of the Irvine for all the Z3000 families. And they think they haven't linked back to which of the three brothers there were. So if you haven't done your white DNA and you're from the north of Ireland here, I highly recommend it because a great number of the samples we have, like in the Larkin Project that come from the north here, they'll end up being... Okay, click that inadvertently. They'll end up being this group, Clan Cola. In the west of Ireland, you get different signs and things. Where this gets good is where people have a long pedigree, a paper genealogy trail, and then we can test DNA from people that we are pretty confident come from that pedigree. That's what James had between his book and the research he's had. A lot of people from the Republic and so forth from Ireland, we don't have those pedigrees. But one that did were some Kellys from the west of Ireland from Cannot because the last Gaelic king of Himany was William Boyle Kelly. Okay, and so this paper is a very large family tree out of a book written in the 19th century that had all these different kings on it. And so this man I think is the... That's William Boyle Kelly. He died in 1381, last of the chieftains of Himany. He's 28th generation from the base of the tree. Okay, but if we look down, now we're zoomed in on a corner below him. All this was obviously published in the 19th century, but we know from family history, there's a man, James, who's the present count of O'Kelly. At the time of the book, they know he was from this branch. Okay, and now we have living descendants that we know are from him that we tested. So with that, we're able to put a DNA signature with a person that has a very long and pretty reliable pedigree, we think. And that's kind of what we did there. This is Alex Williamson's big, big wide, big tree for this branch. This is this O'Kelly, who was a direct descendant of James, the count in 1843. So in some cases, we can't do stuff like that. And it's neat to be able to characterize a famous clan or political line with DNA. It is probably still the exception more than the rule, but there's becoming more and more of those cases. The Econors, on the other hand, have been kind of hard to figure out, because some of the lines, I think, have dotted it out. The O'Rourke's, it's kind of hard. The descent from the chief is a little hard to say, but we think they're M-222, BY-338, that M-222 marker is, we think, the O'Nile marker from the north. And I threw a reference from the animals when this was mentioned specifically in writing. In Munster, of course there were strong kingdoms, there were kings of Munster, and a lot of their surnames were thought to be McCarthy, Sullivan, O'Callaghan, so on. And there's a very active genealogy, genetic genealogy group here in this country on this line, and so they've done a lot of great research. And what they found is that most of them were Irish type II, and they had a marker like CTS 4466. One of the branches was a different marker, but between most everybody they sampled, they were one of the two, so again there was diversity, but the majority fit into one of the two categories. Brian Borru, of course the famous High King of Ireland, defeated the Vikings at the Battle of Clontarth just about a little more than a thousand years ago. In that case, his sons had various leadership roles after he died. Some of them became British lords and they had an Earl Dummond stuff down in what's called Tomon, down near Clare, an intemporary border. So because they got into the British aristocracy, their pedigree has been well preserved passed down. So now we've been able to find somebody to test who's from that pedigree and they have some very detailed markers, FGC 5628, DC1. So that is the genetic signature we think highly likely for Brian Borru, because in his case his ancestors weren't completely lost to history, at least some of the lineages were preserved. There's a kingdom called Brazil Break down in Munster, commonly associated with names like Ryan of Tipperary, Kennedy of Wexford, and they have a marker called Y5058. And they'll be quite a lot of different, because this is a pretty old marker there'll be a lot of surnames that are part of it. But again, kind of like James's map, you see some spread out all over. There's been mixing people moving around a long time. Eli O'Carroll was a territory in the Midlands of Ireland. One of the descendants was Charles Carroll who came to America, and he's the only Roman Catholic signer of the U.S. Declaration of Independence. And so this is a shot at Charles Carroll of Carrollton, Maryland. But he was known to be descended from the Klan leader. He has a genetic signature of Z16282. So if you were to take a test and you had that marker, it would be like bang, okay? This is just a little highlight of where Eli is here. And some of the other surnames that we have looked at. So in some cases we have those historical pedigrees, and we have preserved down to living people who have been willing to take a DNA test. In other cases though we don't. Like the Murphy's surname is I think the most popular surname in the Republic of Ireland today. But it's not mentioned very often in the ancient annals, and the DNA is very diverse. The largest group though are M222, like the O'Neill, but the second largest group are CTS4466, like the South Irish types. So basically those folks have been here a long time. We've all been mixing, and some of them took the Murphy's surname. And for whatever reason, the Murphy's surname became more common. Looking at the southeast of Ireland, if you look in the annals in the ancient times, there were branches of families called the O'Consella, though Dunlangy. According to the annals, then they split into three groups, and they were said to be cousins. In this case, we were able to use DNA to, I wouldn't say prove, but to support what was in the annals, because we've tested descendants of the Oberne lines and Larkin lines that are in Wexford. Not my line, but anyway. And they have the ZZ10 and the Z253 markers together. So that's about enough to be eight cousins, we think. So we kind of went through some Gaelic clans there. Let's also look at the Normans. About 1.5% of the population of Ireland have names associated with Norman families, like Bart, Fitzgerald, Power, Barry, Roche, Butler, Grace, Cusick, Dillon. The three most powerful being the butlers, the burps and the Fitzgeralds. The Lord's Butler were descendants of a Norman family that came to Ireland with King Henry II. They had large holdings. They were generally loyal to the British monarchy politically, but religiously most of them remained Catholic. And they had a palatinate in Tipperary and Kilkenny, where basically because they had such a long political rule that they had their own courts there for land and real estate. And that kind of inhibited plantation to a degree in the 17th century. So this lineage, they're not in Tipperary anymore, but there is one in England. He has the title 18th Viscount Montgarit, but as far as I know he hasn't taken the DNA test. If he has, I haven't been aware of it. So potentially we could know this line, but we haven't got a DNA sample. Another famous line in family course is burps or borps. How many folks in here have a burp in your ancestral tree? Right, it's two, three. Right, pretty common here. So William de Burk came with the invasion of Conop in 1175. They formed many powerful families, the Earls of Clan Rickard, which is East County Galway now, as well as another group in Clan William. Since they've been here so long, they all had, you know, one time or another, they all had castles, they all had lineages. It's a, pardon me, that jumped a little bit. It's kind of hard to say because we don't have a sample from the Clan Rickard line because they went extinct about 1916. You have that surname a lot. When we look at where some of their last holdings were up in Mayo, we have folks that are D of 27 with the S21184 marker. But I was also able to meet somebody who said they were descended from the Clan William branch and they had basically a different branch, L21C253. So it's not clear. It's a picture of, we're telling the council now, the County Galway, which was a burp residence. The Fitzgerald dynasty descended from Morris Fitzgerald. It was a Norman knight. It became the Earls of Leinster and Kildare. The original Earldum exists, but the fortune was lost in the 20th century, something about horse racing, probably other kinds of racing, a lot of racing. So there is a living descendant identified, we think, someone who is a gardener in Oxfordshire and would technically be the ninth Duke of Leinster. But as far as I know, he hasn't actually tested. There are other branches that have tested with the Baron surname that are claimed to be descent from the Morris Fitzgerald and they are part of IM253 haplogroup, which in the big picture is probably a Viking lineage. So that kind of covers Ireland. Going to hit the British monarchy a little bit. There's been nine white DNA dynasties of the British monarchy over the past 1100 years. That's since Ethelstan was king and kind of united all of England in 927. The way I'm defining dynasty here is by male descent, like the white DNA. And to be a dynasty, you have to have an heir that reaches the throne as well. So there are about four monarchs that didn't have a living heir that I'm not counting. For instance, William of Orange didn't have a male heir that inherited the crown. So when we look at those, we have DNA signatures probably for about four of them. The Mount Baton's, the Windsor's, the Stewart's, and the Plantagenets. So for this presentation, because I want to cut it down, we're only going to talk about the ones that we have some idea of their white DNA. The Mount Baton heirs, okay, they're actually not monarchs yet per se, but Charles Prince of Wales is the heir apparent. And of course their white DNA comes from the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Philip. He was born in Greece in 1921. But of course Philip's ancestry, he is descended from a very large line of the House of Oldenburg, which has many other monarchs in Europe. He's also descended maternally from Queen Victoria and Prince Louis of Batonburg. So that made him an excellent match to match the last Tsar of Russia when they were trying to test remains because he was probably a white DNA relative of the last Tsar, but he's also a mitochondria DNA relative of his wife, the Zarina's family. So he agreed to contribute DNA sample for some studies, and this just shows the common white DNA, kind of the tree of how you get from King Frederick, the first of Denmark and Norway, 1523 to 1533. He's an ancestor of both the Romanov Tsars and the Mount Baton lines, who are now heirs to the British throne. Okay, the Winsers, the Winsers, the white DNA of the Winsers began with the crowning of King Edward VII in 1901. Their white DNA comes from, this is Queen Elizabeth II's family, the white DNA comes from Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg in Gotha, who was the husband of Queen Victoria. And he also is descended from a very large European royalty house called the House of Wetton. And so there are other monarchs and folks in Europe that have that white DNA signature. And so, luckily, somebody was able to get some of them to test. They're actually, they're technically princes that live in Germany, and they've been a couple of them, so they've been triangulated pretty well. And they have R1B U106 Z305. So that's a kind of a Germanic DNA signature, I would call it. It's different from most of the urban ones we were talking about earlier. It's different from Larkin ones. And this little tree just shows there how they descend from Prince Albert. Okay, looking at the stewards. Now the stewards are probably the best research line of British monarchy in terms of white DNA. They have an active DNA project. They have, they had a lot of heirs that came down off different generations. So they have some people like, like James. They have some very energetic project managers. The dynasty only lasted six monarchs on the throne. And of course it was a very controversial period with the English Civil War. Paternally, they're founded from Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley of Scotland, 1545. And further back, they think from Alan Fitzflagd from Brittany, who was a French knight in the service of the Normans. Okay, I got a slide out of order here. So when we look at the white DNA, that signature is L21S781. And they think that that S781 was a marker that Sir John Steward of Boynkill had. He lived in the 13th century. And now they've been able to test all kinds of different of his descendants and classify them because there are several living dukes in England that are actually from the steward white DNA lineage. Even though the monarch is not any longer, there are there are barons who are. And so they now have 21 different identified branches underneath this. So they're forming a very excellent tree of folks that are descended from all these stewards, the ones before they got to the throne, the ones after. I think James is referencing King James I of England, who was from Scotland, who he's a member of this dynasty. Okay, we're going to talk about the Plantagenets a little bit. So the Plantagenets started with Henry II, was crowned at 1154. They spread their kingdom to many realms, including Ireland, of course. It was one of one of his vassals that first landed in Ireland, and then he came a little later with a very large army. And so there was no war because nobody wanted to mess with him. He was way too powerful at that time. The white DNA is attributed back to Count Joffrey, the 5th of Anjou. And further back to someone called Joffrey for role, the 2nd Count of Guestinois, France. So a very long dynasty on the British throne, 14 different monarchs, but there came to be bloody wars of secession that we know as the War of the Roses. Culminating in the death of the last Plantagenet monarch, King Richard III in 1485. So is there anybody here who hasn't heard of the king in the car park? Right, so Richard III is the king in the car park. His forces were defeated and he was personally killed in Leicester. They think they found him. They're buried in a car park. And now they've released white DNA signature for the remains. Those remains are Haplogroup G with a P287 marker. So Haplogroup G, we think Haplogroup Gs were here in Western Europe, more commonly they were one of the most common. They got a lot less common in the last 3,000 years, but the remains they found there are part of that group. So that would be kind of a totally different group from all the R1Bs and all the other folks that we're talking about. The 70% of the people in the room that are probably R1Bs, this is a totally different group. So they wanted to try and confirm that to triangulate it to look at, okay well where can we find living people that we think are descendants of the Plantagenets and test their white DNA. So there are four descendants from the Somerset line from John of Gaunt who were thought to be patrilineal cousins to Richard III. When they tested them, though, four came out to be a totally different type, RU152C192. So that would be, in my mind, probably kind of a Germanic line of white DNA. But the fifth descendant actually was IM170, he's a whole other Haplogroup. So then a Frenchman who had the surname DeWarren, he claimed to have descent over 22 generations from Count Joffre, the fifth of Anjou, earlier. So he would be like from an earlier branch, kind of thinking James's, but he didn't match any of the above. They didn't publish his marker that I've seen, but he didn't match any of those above. So what's the white DNA signature of the Plantagenets? Okay, we don't really know. My feeling is as they've gotten a lot better now with actually yielding DNA out of ancient samples that we should look at some of the crypts in England if we want to know because lots of them are buried in places that they could be recovered. So far I don't think that's happened yet though. Debbie Cannon, I know, is very on top of the situation and they haven't quite done that yet. But it could be solved, but it's hard to say. Sorry, I'm jumping slides here. But anyway, so just to kind of review the British monarchy, nine white DNA dynasties or about the last 1,100 years, four of them we have DNA for. You know, we think we have the Plantagenet. So even here where these people have very strong pedigrees, right? These are the most researched, the most guarded pedigrees in Western civilization. I would say that's fair to say. It's still, you can get into a gray area. So in summary, we have a picture of Queen Elizabeth II. Bear in mind that when we talk about her white DNA lines or these white DNA dynasties autosomaly from all her relatives, she's a descendant of every single one of these monarchs. Every single one of them. The stewards, the tutors, the Plantagenets. Other ones that I didn't cover today. As well as she's a descendant of Brian Boru of Ireland. As well as she's a descendant of Kenneth McAlpin, King of the Scots. So she's got some truly special DNA. So with that said, I have time for questions. Great. Thanks very much for that welcome. So it's fascinating to see just how a man came out of Africa 50,000 years ago. They left older cousins behind and populated the rest of the world. And over the course of many, many millennia, we have now this very, very rich family tree that descends to some Gaelic clans, some of the British monarchy and of course every single surname in this room. So any particular questions for Brad? We have one from Jared Corcoran. I should say also I have some summary tables here at the end. I'd stop with too many numbers for me to just speak for. Go ahead, Jared. Hi, Brad. That was great. Thank you. Hopefully I'll be introducing that material. It's very good. In Iona, the island of Scotland, there were over 50 kings of Ireland, Scotland and Norway who were very there, from Kenneth McAlpine to Malcolm III. And they're all in unmarked race because the positioning was lost over time. So that would be a really interesting ancient DNA project to put them back in the right places. Okay. That would be a lot of effort, but it could be done. If we could get permission to sample and a little bit of funding to do that. Have you all, you've been seeing several lectures today, have you all heard of the Petraeus bone? No. It was covered earlier? Yeah. Yeah, I won't go into it. Go ahead. All right. Debbie, Kevin. It's because one of the problems is that you cannot get permission to exhume a body without first, certainly in England, you have to go through all the church authorities and you have to have a good reason for testing. And you also have to have reference samples available for comparison purposes, which is not an easy thing. So I know some of them are trying to dig up some bones and they've got King Harold, but they only had a very speculative pedigree and they didn't have reference samples. So that would be a complete non-starter. Okay. Well, in theory, I know that the princess in the tower, that comes under the queen's jurisdiction and she doesn't want to get permission because once you do that, you sort of set a precedent and then you'd have lots of people wanting to dig up all these bones and it just wouldn't really be very seemly to do that. And it's very, very difficult to get the approval from the church authorities in the first place in the new cases. Okay. Well said. So it would take changes in policy probably and legislation and church. So next Tuesday? No, it's kidding. We have a question. I think it will happen maybe someday, but it may be a generation. Hi. I'm from Vermont and I'm just looking at your slide there on the summary table and I noticed that you've got two signatures or two sort of markers, not markers, I'm talking about the terminology, but the ancient Argyala and the ancient Uli for the Maguire's. Is there anything that might explain? Because, I mean, if I'm trying to kind of set up a surname project from the Maguire's and from Mana, you know, why are we getting sort of two YDNA markers that might pertain to those? Because I think, so if the question is if I'm testing Maguire's and for Mana why am I getting two different markers? Because these markers are very old and these lineages have been living, moving around Ireland and living in the same areas. And at the time that surnames came in, whether it's because one married the daughter of a Maguire and then he stayed on the Maguire family plot and took the surname Maguire afterwards, we don't know, but things like that I think happened. So the lineages are very old. The surnames are more recent and they're more flexible. So you're going to have that. And I think what James Irvin showed in the other diagram I found in the Larkin project to be true also is just to use my own example, we have about 23 identified YDNA types in the Larkin project. So quite a lot of variety, but about 20% of all the people worldwide that have the Larkin surname come out of the first two. So if I meet someone named Larkin, chances are 20%, they're going to be out of the first two, but not all do. So you're going to probably find something like that. So maybe the majority of them come out of these two groups and then you'll have the odd other one. So that's natural because the YDNA isn't going to strictly follow the surname. We cannot assume that a particular surname, whether it's Eastern or Maguire, actually has a single origin because they're probably going to be multiple origins of your surname and they've got multiple origins. Say for example the first person that originated the Maguire surname, the second, the next generation, one of the children, one of the five sons, his wife was unfaithful and he never knew it, so the child that was born was Maguire by name, but the postman by DNA. And whatever postman's surname it might start showing up as another branch of the Maguire's, but with completely different DNA from the originator. And that kind of thing, and it's not just the postman always or twice, it's also, as James said, a young widow, her husband dies, she remarries when she takes the name and her sober children of the new husband. So there are these surname switches, these DNA switches over time. We reckon it is about 1% per generation, 1 to 2%. So how many generations back to the start of surnames, which is about a thousand years ago, say about 30 generations. So between 1 to 2% multiplied by 30, there's a 30 to 60% chance that the surname you carry today does not go back to the person who originated it a thousand years ago. And that applies to absolutely everybody here. So it's very important to keep that in mind, and the chances are that if you do do require the DNA project you will find, like Brad has found, maybe 10 to 20 genetic groups within your project over the course of time as the membership grows. The thing I think about for Gaelic Ireland is that it's an agrarian-based society. And so it's kind of like work. So people that farmed in the same area tended to have the same surname. It could be direct sons. It could also be men who technically would have another YDNA signature, who married daughters, who the father liked. And it was a good worker. And said, yeah, I want you to farm part of my deal because you make us all better. So I think there was... I viewed that. If you had a son-in-law that wasn't any good, he probably wouldn't get to stay on the clan lands, would he? But if you had one that was good, you'd probably let him be a Maguire. That's my feeling. Question here from James Irvin. Right, I'd like to congratulate you on the mysterious handbook because you make the challenge that I face look very simple. Handling the snips of these clans on the concept that you are where it's before the surname era and you're tracing back into formist mythology but finding some method that is rather random. My question is, I want to just focus on the word clan. We tend here, I think, and being a bit presumptive, to think that clans apply across the whole of Scotland. And our, my particular project was that somebody asked if what we've done from the Dumpreshire area borders, the word clan is used in a very different sense. It's a modern cliché rather than the clans that you're talking about. What I'm perhaps trying to say is that a lot of the Scott Sarrichs from the South of Scotland are not clans in the context that we are using here. I don't mean that in a critical sense but I think it causes some confusion when we use the word clan because it's really a Victorian, post-Victorian synonym that's sort of simplifying all confusing things. Okay. I'll make one other point about the Maguire's. So, let's go back to this map. So, surnames are flexible. We know that they can change and the STR markers, they're fast changing. As James said, they're very dynamic. But the SMP markers, it takes a while for us to figure them out but when we find them, they're basically truth. They're basically scientific evidence that this ancestor have a change of this thing and it's passed down. So, that's again why I pushed the big Y because the big Y is truth. We don't always understand how to interpret it right away because it's so new but it's truth. That's what I might look at it. So, I would focus on the SMPs. And those Y DNA lineages. This is that's the Y SMP map I had earlier. Okay. We have a question over here. It was really just a comment in the Gilek tradition in the clans O or U was a descendant of and that would have included sons and daughters and would have included opinions and often mercenaries were used and the mercenaries settled in a primary and mostly the mercenaries were Galaglas and Scotland who were actually viking in origin and the Normans of course were also viking in origin they established the community in Normandy. The Mach term was more common in Scotland, in our state and in the summer. Right. My personal view of the whole definition of land is a group of people that economically produced together probably with an agrarian society and who also fought together to defend that piece of land which was their way of life there. So, it was true in Scotland too before it was true in Gilek Ireland as well. That's how I look at it. It's a group of people that have a shared interest and a shared agricultural. We have a question here. Probably that truth, thank you very much indeed. The last slide you showed I on ancestry DNA have all of the names except one O'Rourke and every single one of them up there. That's great. You're by any chance or you're Irish? 74% Yeah, only 74%. Yeah, that's a whole other lecture that I think Debbie has covered which is why are people in America more British than people born in England with very equal established pedigrees? Anyway, I'm giving a talk on the ancestral estimation percentage in Southern California in June. So if you want a nice holiday, come on over and we'll talk about how they do that and how you're only 74% Irish. They say. What are the chances of a back mutation for an SNP? Okay. You mentioned about having done a more comprehensive test for your order so more than the big Y. Sorry. The big Y is a more comprehensive test of your Y DNA and then you can do a full genomic sequence not through family tree DNA but you can do full genomic sequence like through YSEC. And how many private SNPs do you find there? Is it possible to say that? I don't know what the number is. I haven't really looked at all my other chromosomes and how many SNPs there are but I can tell by looking through the file there are many. I think I was reading something this week that they think from a parent there are 40 SNPs across the whole genome from each parent so you would hear it about 60 SNPs across all your chromosomes. What are the chances of? Well so homoplasty is another way to say convergence and that's where the STRs by coincidence happen to me. Basically it doesn't matter it's going to be my answer to you because when we look at the Y DNA lineages we're just looking at one SNP we're looking at multiple ones so the chance of any one mutation forward or back generally we're going to say is about the same but when we make these trees we look at multiple markers so it doesn't matter because we're looking at multiple markers if one particular SNP mutated backwards that could throw us off the trail for a while but we would see all these other SNPs you know segmentation or reclo event or something that I'm not aware of anybody that's recorded one along genealogical markers. So that's the advantage when you do 13 million markers with the big Y even if one does back mutate or two do back mutate you'll see enough around them because you're looking at so much more wider view than the Y37 that you're going to be if you work at it you're going to be able to tell so it doesn't really matter Alex Williamson's tree there the other thing you see there is the different branches in theory it would be one mutation per branch right but effectively there are times where we see people that have 20 mutations, 20 different markers and they all seem to be one branch that's kind of representing that too we have lots of mutations so if one doesn't feel good look at some other ones and if you get a wide enough look you'll kind of find the truth okay we have a final question here the S588 marker um was that in relation to a particular family okay I believe I get confused if it's that's a common one under M222 it is it's the one under M222 so it's a very under M222 a very large cadre of people also have the S588 but not all so I think for instance I think my branch of Larkins have it but another branch from the same area of East Galway do not have it they're M222 also but they don't have that so it's a marker that's been in Ireland a long time and it's good to use it's one of the descendants of Nile at the Nile Hospital in broad terms but if you actually google it you will actually find a project associated with that because it is one of the major sub branches of I think under M222 is what probably on the big the big tree so if you actually ask the project administrator of M222 for more information about that look at their website what Mike Walter think is on M222 there's several other ones actually that are project administrators for M222 Ian Kennedy does a lot of work on M222 also now it's a marker and it helps us group a large three years ago because I've been in M222 my whole life and we used to do M222 and it's highly concentrated here in Ireland and some in Scotland but there was no breakout for us underneath for a very long time now suddenly there's lots of levels below there and then like I say we're discovering new branches three and four and five markers under S588 every week now so it's just the first of many branches where you'll find markers that are only maybe in your family tree but so the other way of saying is it's not going to be unique to a surname because it's a little too early for that it's going to be found in lots of surnames S588 great well we have to call it a day there because we are having in five minutes find and ask the experts session where you can come and ask any DNA question you want to a panel of experts that I will pick from the audience and so in the meantime please give a warm thank you to Brad Larkin once I did it I knew it but it was too late it was too late to fix it then bring your chair up to the top yeah okay is that muted now it is great