 Here's the come to Jesus moment I would have with you if you were my client. It's kind of what I was hoping for. Okay, so here's the deal. It's like, you're five, six and 151. I, without even seeing you right now, I imagine you're pretty good shape. I mean, but it sounds like you want more. You want this, I want to look bad ass in my bikini, which is totally a fair goal. But what comes with that is another level of sacrifice. And the question is, do you really want it that bad? Is it worth giving up some of those social events that you really enjoy doing? And I would not impose my thoughts on you at all. I would pull it out of you. I would say, listen, Megan, I think you look great. You're doing great. You've got great balance in your life. Sounds like you and your husband have a great weekends and you enjoy yourself and you still manage to stay in shape the rest of the time. I would really challenge you in saying, is that bikini body that you're saying, is it really something you really, really want that bad? And if so, then we have to evaluate some of these other things that you're doing that fly right in the face of those results. It's designed specifically to balance out the body and develop a symmetrical, beautiful physique and a strong physique. There's actually a five by five phase in this program towards the end. It's really cool. By the way, it is a launch. It is a brand new program. So for everyone else, if you want to sign up for it, check this out, right? It'll normally retail at $177, but right now you can get map symmetry for $97. Plus we will throw in some free stuff. We have the muscle building secrets of isometrics. That's an ebook. That's normally $47. You get that for free. Plus we have reverse dieting 101. If you want to learn how to reverse diet to boost your metabolism, eat more protein, more calories and still get leaner, this is a great ebook. That's going to be $47, but that's also for free. So little recap, $97 gives you map symmetry, newest maps program, plus the muscle building secrets of isometrics ebook, plus reverse dieting 101 ebook, all included with that one price. If you're interested, go to mapssymetry.com and then use the code SYM50 for the giveaways and that discount. All right, here comes the rest of the show. Be science-based, but don't be science-bound. Science is a very effective tool to figure out the truth and what works and what doesn't work, but it is not an ideology or religion. Becoming science-bound can really cause lots of problems. Was that our good friend, Max, who said that? Max, look at what you said. That's a spicy quote. And I loved it so much because I've been trying to communicate that for a long time now. I just didn't have an exceptional quote to really kind of puts it all together. And a lot of the examples I'll use, and I'll use the, obviously the health industry because that's the one that I'm most privy to, you'll often see people downplay certain herbs or health practices that have hundreds or thousands of years of practice or anecdote or culture because there isn't a controlled double-blind placebo study. So I'll say something like, well, this particular supplement herb like ginseng or ashwagandha or whatever has been used for hundreds and hundreds of years for these types of things. And they'll say, well, where's the study that shows that it works? And I don't really believe it. And it's like, well, anecdote, after hundreds and hundreds of years, is truth. In fact, I would trust that over a single study because oftentimes single studies don't reveal long-term effects or side effects or whatever. And it's repeatable. Yes, and I hate it when people become dogmatic about science because that can really leave people in the wrong way. And it doesn't take into sometimes nuances and context. Well, and especially in our space because I feel like in nutrition and exercise, it is so nuanced. I mean, so many of these things, we can't be replicated because of how nuanced it is. And there's so many variables. So, and I think more so in our space than almost any other space that I can think of when you talk about science. I remember as a trainer and first like starting to piece that together, like looking at studies and then right away, I read another study that almost like flew right in the face of the study that I just read before. It's like, okay, well, then which one's right? Well, technically they both are, you know? One of them is measuring one little bit of a difference and it's like, and you see these fitness people that will take something that has truth to it and they'll run with it and expand beyond it. Oh, this is what the science says, therefore. Everything is this. Yeah, and it's like, whoa, like no, it's not that simple. Here's a great example. If you were science bound 20 years ago, the form of exercise that produces the best health effects, the best longevity, the best for weight loss, the best anything that has to do with health would have been a steady state cardio. Steady state cardio is superior. Now why? We're running in general. Yeah, now why? It's because strength training, for example, was never studied in that context. It was always studied from a performance standpoint. And the general, the weak studies that they had really looked at extreme cases of strength athletes and extreme athletes, which you never looked to those people for longevity of health. Now 20 years later, scientists and doctors are saying, well, we've said for so long, which is strength training is one of the best ways to improve longevity of health. Yeah, it has like the best qualities about it for longevity. But yeah, like you said, it was just never tested in that direction before. No, this conversation kind of reminds me of what we just recently or you in particular saw, because it was you who actually took the reins and started to go back and forth. I think I sent it over, like, could you see our boy, Eugene Tao? Sure, here you go. Anybody who claims to be able to correct your posture either has no fucking idea what they're talking about or is trying to make a lot of money off you, because there is no posture that has been definitively shown to be good or bad or to keep you free from injury or pain. So there you go. And I sent over the message and then Sal was like, I can't help myself. I have to talk about this, because I feel like I know his intentions. He has two major intentions. Like there are certain people that I know that he's trying to address that are scammers that are out there that are trying to just give people's money. So I appreciate that. But the other thing he's trying to do is to say something that's controversial that some of us may think is common knowledge to create a tension and argument and debate which feeds the Instagram algorithm which gives him more likes, views, and people following him. I can appreciate that. The only thing I don't like about it is you have to be careful because through that process, what he did is he confused the shit out of, I guarantee he's confused the hell out of a lot of things. Coaches, desired outcome. You always gotta keep that top. And point them in the wrong direction because his original statement on there was if a coach or trainer tells you that they could help correct your posture or improve your posture through exercise along those lines, they're ripping you off, right? And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? No, and so then there was someone else that commented underneath and brought up studies about exercises to improve posture and the either insignificant or small improvements in pain relief, therefore it's a waste of time. And that's a great example of being science bound because pain is so complex. You can't use that as the only metric. In fact, you could give someone, there's studies that show you could give someone antidepressants and their back pain disappears or someone can be stressed out or anxious and they experience pain differently or people who work out experience pain differently than people who don't. And you talk to any pain specialist just how challenging it is to treat pain because it's such a complex thing. So if you use that as your metric, I mean, here's another example. There's a study and we'll link it that showed that there were people who got a fake knee surgery and they compared it to people who got a real knee surgery. And the people with the fake knee surgery had just as much pain relief as the people who got the real knee surgery. So that mean knee surgery is all fake and garbage? No, now I can make a click baity post and say knee surgery, any doctor tells you you need knee surgery, they're ripping you off. It's obviously more complex than that. So him and I went back and forth and in his comments, he essentially said, oh yeah, it's way more complex. I'm like, well, you got to correct what you said, dude, because a lot of people are gonna hear that, immediately jump to it, see the two or three studies and be like training to correct postures a waste of time. And the irony is he puts out such great content. I see him posting mobility stuff. Why fuck around with mobility then? I mean, how do you reconcile that? That you don't want to improve posture. So what's the point of moment? Just to improve movement, but we're not really trying to fix posture or improve, have more optimal posture. It reminds me of the camp that also gets all crazy about good, bad food, like it's like, oh, and I know that's what he was attacking, right? That it's bad posture. He's attacking the verbiage that some coaches and trainers use to make their point that, hey, you have bad posture. Oh, well, technically we don't know if that's bad posture. Sort of like marketing, it has been negative right away to pull you in to sell you something. Yeah, which is not the, I mean, improving posture is just something that will help a lot of people tremendously. And it's something that you can focus on and build off of that. So I just don't understand like the angle he's trying to take with this. Listen, I've seen people's posture change dramatically through exercise. I've also seen it, I've also seen it change dramatically through attitude. You ever watch a depressed kid, lighten up and watch their posture change? Lots of things change posture and posture is quite an important thing. And should I just like throw out all of what I learned in biomechanics? Yeah. Yeah, like every like optimal position of the joint and its function, like you can improve these things. Well, the whole like, there's no good or bad. It's very strange. I even said it in the comments. So this is a very post-modernist like take, like there is no good or bad. What's up and down actually? It's all relative. Yeah, no, you know. Doesn't work that way. Here's the thing though, there's some truth to that. But the problem is like, when you're trying to convey something to the general population to get a point across to help them or better them, this is the same thing that the same problem I had with way back when the first time that we addressed him on the show with the squat thing. It's not that his statement is necessarily wrong. It's that all I can think about is me as a young kid who's being told that, you know, squats aren't that important. You don't need to do them. It's like, that's all I needed to hear. And then, you know what's happening right now? It's somebody who's got bad posture is hearing that, oh, that's all, it's all nuance. It doesn't matter. Oh, cool. I'm not gonna work on it. Like that's all you're giving the green light for people that should be working on improving their movement patterns or working on their overall posture. Listen, if you think that fucking sit on an iPad like this all day long for kids and what we're seeing with chronic pain in kids now that we didn't see just two decades ago, if you don't think that has something to do with them having poor posture or less favorable posture. Or what led to that posture. Yes. And then if you think that it would not be ideal to try and correct that or work on that, that's crazy to me and it's bad advice. No, it's insane. So part of the argument was, well, that's their best posture because that's how their body moves most efficiently. Yes, that's why we have movement patterns. If you always walk on your tippy toes, your body will learn how to do that best and that becomes your default pattern. That's your most efficient pattern. But does that mean that that is generally the most efficient best pattern for your body? No, we can correct it and train it. He's always looking for that data. You're providing your body with that data every single day. How you do something is how you do everything. It's how I pick something up. I fall in the default pattern, but guess what, can I manipulate that pattern? I absolutely can. I can improve that every single time I go to attempt it. Yeah, I use the example of like forward head. And I said, the muscles that support the neck just through leverage have to support a lot more weight when the head is forward. I said, well, is that necessarily a good or bad thing? I said, okay, here's the problem, first off with some of these studies. You change someone's posture from less favorable, from more favorable to less favorable, you may not see necessarily more pain or reduced performance necessarily right away, but you follow along and find me a study that goes five or 10 years, right? This is when it starts to become a problem. Also, it's not just about pain, it's how do you feel performance, your energy levels? These things all play a big role. I mean, I've seen this firsthand myself all the time, but it doesn't make any sense. As you strengthen and train your body, look, athletes all the time train with coaches to change movement patterns. Go hire a running coach. They will watch your running pattern and they're not gonna say, well, that's your best running pattern. Yes, just run harder. They're like, no, no, no, there's a faster, more efficient way to run. And I know it's awkward for you right now and it's gonna take us a while to learn this and get your body used to this, but here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do it because ultimately it's more efficient, it's faster and better performed. How is this message any different than healthy at any size? Exactly. This is the same exact message and it's so frustrating to me because it's not empowering. It's saying, let's accept just whatever you're presenting like you're health-wise. It is what it is, so you might as well just be happy. Yes, and of course there's nuance. For example, I'll use a good example, like forward shoulder, right? So forward shoulder is typically regarded as a less favorable posture for your body. Causes more stress on the body. It's not as biomechanically advantageous. It tends to lead to tightness in the upper neck, maybe even tightness in the upper mid-back. Sometimes shoulder issues because the shoulders don't work as optimally when you're pressing or doing other exercises. However, is that posture better if you're a boxer? It can be, you ever watch boxer fight? You're not supposed to stand with your chest out. You want to have forward shoulder and cover yourself up. Yeah, but now you're talking about performance. Correct. Completely different. Correct, that's what I mean by the nuance, right? So in certain situations, some postures can be better than others, but we're talking about general population and when you see someone, look, I'm not gonna take someone with a crazy anterior pelvic tilt and all of a sudden make them have this perfect anatomical, that's not the point, but the point is I'm gonna take some pressure off that extreme posture that they have and maybe identify why their posture is that particular way and then look at their movement as a result of that particular posture. It's all connected. Look how much better you look when you stand upright. Yeah. I mean, I know that's, I mean, that's like, forget all the other things. I mean, it doesn't boost your confidence. Do you guys remember doing this? I mean, I used to do this as a trainer. I used to do like this little posture check, right? And get my clients into the anatomical position and be like, this is how we should be moving. And then I have a stand in front of the mirror so they could see what they look like and they right away look like they lost 10 pounds, built some muscle just because they're standing upright with good posture. And you can't tell me that doesn't, that doesn't also affect mood and attitude. You, when you stand up with your chest high, shoulders back, you approach life differently too. So why not work on that just for those reasons too? Forget all the other shit we're talking about. Well, what's funny to me is that they've narrowed it down to posture, but they don't, they won't say that about movement. When you talk about movement, the same people are gonna say, oh no, there's better or worse movement. Obviously otherwise exercise form wouldn't exist. There wouldn't be exercise form. You just tell someone, lift that however you want, whatever feels comfortable to you. And then that's gonna be totally fine. Is posture connected to movement? Well, posture is a static hold for some, for lack of a better term. You're holding your position somewhat in a static position, which means some muscles need to be a little tighter. Some need to be a little bit more relaxed. It's not completely static, right? Nobody stands like a statue, but it's akin to movement. It's really a part of it. So does one affect the other and vice versa? Yes, absolutely. So these studies that they'll point to, even the studies that they point to, show a small change, but nonetheless it's like, what happens when you're science bound is you take logic and you throw it out. And you're like, no, no, no, this study said that therefore. What was even the motivation behind the study? Do you know? I mean, they're trying to look at the effects of exercise on posture and then what that means for pain. Oh, for pain. For pain for the person. I think this is such a trap that a lot of coaches fall into. Totally. You know, as you get more experienced, more knowledge, you quickly begin speaking to your peers more than what you probably originally got into this space for. And that's, I always go back to that when I see posts like this from our friends that are really smart guys and girls in the space. But at one point they, I feel like they start to produce content that is really for the peers. It's like what you guys were debating back and forth. The only people that could even hang with that conversation are other coaches and trainers. The other, you know, I don't know how many, I think Eugene's got like 300,000 followers or whatever, right? The other 290,000 followers that are painted are completely lost. And they're only picking up on one message. Oh, posture. Waste of time. Yeah, waste of time. Yeah. You're right. And so that's the problem that I have is that, you know, and honestly, it would serve them more if they realized this. They realized that you're speaking in a little echo chamber. You see all the comments underneath it too. There are all other coaches that are, you know, supporting with studies also. And it's like, it's a study support session. It's like, and then you got to think of who, all the clients you train, all of them. How many of them are engaging in that, in that conversation? They're not. None. They're coaches. There are other coaches that want to sound smart that are either going to agree and use studies to support or trainers that want to sound smart and counter his point with other studies. And that is just a big jerk off. Tell me, tell me that is not the bane of new trainers. The new smart trainers. That's not one of the biggest weaknesses. Oh yeah. As they get stuck in the literature. The minutia. You know, I remember getting confronted with this as a trainer myself. I remember having a client. I, you know, I almost fell into this trap. I had a client who, he was a doctor and he did the doctors without borders is where they volunteer their time. They go all over the world and they help, you know, people out or whatever. Very nice guy. I love this guy. He's still a good friend of mine. And he always had some issues with digestion and we couldn't really quite figure it out and energy and otherwise eight healthy was active, you know, nothing out of the ordinary. So it was just something we couldn't really figure out. Anyway, he traveled somewhere far corner of the world, lived with a tribe and ate a pretty much vegan diet. Okay. Comes back and he goes, I feel amazing. Now the science says true that vegans suffer from higher rates of nutrient deficiencies. We obviously evolved eating meat or exercise performance. The studies will show it tends to be superior. A well-planned omnivore diet versus a well-planned vegan diet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was almost like skeptical. But at the end of the day, I had a guy in front of me who says, and I know the guy and he feels good eating this way. So I said, well, that's weird. You are stronger. You do seem to have better performance. This never happens with any clients I've worked with. Let's follow along and see what happens. And it turns out that he just, his body worked better that way. But if I was science bound, I would have pushed against it and maybe convinced him even to not listen to his body. So that's the big point. I feel like, I feel like you were, cause normally you don't engage in that stuff, but I feel like you were extra fired up cause we literally just created a program to help people. I should know. It's top of mind. Yeah, it was. It was just like, I feel like that was a shot across the bow right there. Yeah, he didn't even know. He doesn't know, right? He has no idea that we just created this program called map symmetry. And it's literally trying to help people balance out. Well, yeah. Well, map symmetry does that, but it's, you know, it's also- Well, it's a lot more than that. Yeah, it's like- But I know that's a component of it. And so- I would just think, I mean, look, a lot of our programs, when we create the programs, that's a consideration. We're always considering, how is this going to affect someone's movement and muscle rigidity? Especially for your average person. Absolutely. Yeah, not your super athlete or bodybuilder or somebody that's like a gym rat. Thank you. Like you're an average person. You know how many DMs I get on the regular? I was literally reading one this morning from people that have taken the advice from us on our Prime Pro and literally just followed that webinar for the last couple of years and how much it's like changed their life for that. Like, oh, Adam, I'm pain free now. I've never been able to squat this deep. Oh my God, I'm so glad I found you guys. And I felt, it's so crazy to me. It's like that person- But you can't consider antidote. I just feel like that person, you know, that same type of a person in that same place two, three years ago, comes across a post like that that Eugene did. And it's now like, oh, well, maybe I shouldn't fuck around and waste my time with that. And then- And here's the irony, right? Like, it's almost like people think you're, there's a line. And I either create a program that maximizes muscle growth and aesthetics and fat loss or I create one that makes me move better and feel better and I have to choose. The truth is, the ones that are the most effective long-term to build muscle, burn body fat, make you look good, take very strong consideration of getting you to move better. They work together, right? So map symmetry is like that. We created this program first off, the goal is to develop a symmetrical balanced physique. So it's the first and only program I've ever seen where unilateral training is the core foundation of the workout. The foundation really is getting each side to connect the same, balance things out, create mirror form between right and left, balance the upper and lower body, how to really build a super balanced aesthetic looking and functional physique through, you know, the goal of symmetry. That's what the program is really all about. So. Well, and again, to kind of if the jab initially was at like a lot of the mobility gurus out there that just stay in the body weight, mobility, train forever, right? Like, you know, this is one of those things where we consider too, like you don't have to be there forever. This is another way you can mobilize the joints, stabilize and control by also like going through loaded exercise. Well, there is a segment of our, you know, coaching space that is exactly that. They're super mobility gurus and they want to scare everybody into thinking that. From doing any strength. Yeah. Like you're compressing the spine. What's that one guy? That one guy is an example of this that we used to talk about way back when. Oh, I know. Functional patterns. Trying to get them on and he wouldn't, he wouldn't get on a plane. It was weird. Yeah. Like so. He's extreme. He has some good information. Yes. Another smart guy with really good information, but then just, you know, is using that same tactic. And so I can appreciate that point, but again, you're talking about a very small segment of people that are probably listening to. Well, hey, proof in the pudding. Map symmetry ends with five by five bilateral barbell strength muscle building. That's the final phase in map symmetry. So there's your proof. What did all this work lead to? Yeah. Like let's now test it. Hey, look, try it out for yourself and see. And then you'll be like, oh yeah, the guys know what they're talking about, you know. Hilarious. Hey, speaking of exercise and stuff, I have to say something that I have noticed that I is different than anything else I've ever noticed in gyms. I've obviously lived in gyms for most of my life. It's actually kind of funny, right? I've been working out in gyms since I was 16. So I've actually been in gyms more than I have not. And you guys, I know it's very similar. I feel very at home. You're probably the one that slept in the gym the most. I actually did. I did it when I worked there. I would sleep there a couple of times, but I, you know, I grew up there and you notice patterns just like you guys, like we walk into a gym and we immediately feel comfortable and we see, we know what's happening and it's just, it's just something we're comfortable with. And I notice, I'm noticing a very interesting, and I can't speak for every gym. This is just the one I'm going to. This is over at club sport is that I'm seeing more women lift heavy and properly than men more. I'm in the free weight area and it's the girls doing the. Well, let's, let's start by saying that women, I think I'll have always trained with better form than men. I think that's been, because I've always never, but it's never been dominant in the free weight area. For me, at least I've never seen that. I feel like it's, we, I mean, we've been watching this happen. You're right. I mean, it's been, it's, it was. Ego in their lifts. That's true. I mean, coaching, I've always enjoyed coaching a woman more than coaching a guy. Coaching a guy is always a pain in the ass. Such a hard hit. Yeah, it's hard for them to get out of their own way where like a, most of my female clients, they would focus first on form and then I would be the one to be pushing them weight. Guys would be the reverse. Guys like, let's, let's do more. Yeah. Let's put more. Wait a minute. Let's focus on form for a little bit. Yeah. So I think that for the most part, you know, women, women I think personally tend to have better form. Well, it's not just that. It's that for so long, the fear of building too much muscle, being too big, right? Kind of kept women out. And so they were usually dominate the cardio area. But I mean, you know how in club sport, there's that dance stairs like functional power lifting and they got the platforms. They have a reverse hyper. They got the grass. So I'm in there and there's literally, I think there's like two or three guys and like six women and I'm in varying ages. Like, you know, middle aged down to in their twenties, you know, there was even a woman who looked like she was in her fifties and the women were doing like bench press, but not like just bench press, like feet planted, back arch, shoulders back, power lifting style bench press, military presses. I saw barbell rows. I saw one arm Arnold presses. Meanwhile, I see the dudes doing like, you know, swinging curls and like, you know, cable weird shit, you know? Then I go upstairs and it's the same. I see similar stuff, the cage. There were two women in their front squatting, front squatting across the floor. And I'm like, this is incredible. Like, has the revolution started? Word spread, yeah. This is so amazing. Yeah, it does feel like it's a ship. I haven't been in a gym in a while, so that's interesting. Oh dude. Yeah, how's that been for you? Cause you're the first one to go back. I love it. You know what I love about it? I love working out in my garage too. I just can't cause I work out at six and I'd end up waking the baby cause he's right upstairs. I should have fricking planned it better and picked a different place to live in, I swear to God. So anyway. You need a shed outside or something. I need a separate, I do, I swear to God. One day my dream house, I'm gonna have a gym on the property and it's gonna be ridiculous and scary and no one's gonna go in there but me. But anyway, I love it because of the steam room in the sauna and because they have so many machines and I never use machines that I'm going through an entire cycle of just straight up bodybuilding machine work. Really give my joints a little bit of a break. It also encourages me to go lighter. I have a tendency to try to push it a little hard with the weight but when I'm using machines I'm much more likely to go light and feel that stuff so it's just different. It's very novel for my body. So I think I'll be doing this for the next few months and then probably go back to how I train traditionally. You know what else they have? I said earlier, reverse hyper. When's the last time you guys used reverse hyper? Oh, I love the reverse hyper. That was one I used to do consistently when I was at NorCal because they actually had one. I was gonna buy it from my house when I was experiencing a lot of back pain because it's another great way. The best. Yeah, to build up strength, support there for your lower back. Oh, it's the best. I mean, I was doing it and I could feel how I have to articulate my spine a little better and isolate my hips and it's hard for me. I'm not even able to use much resistance and I'm like, this is gonna be great. Louis Simmons, and he invented the rest in peace. Did he invent it? Yeah, he did so much that I was going through after he passed, just seeing his impact was enormous. Oh, his impact on strength training was this. That guy was a character. You guys know he was at 74, 75 when he died? Oh, really? He was still squatting like crazy. Bro, he was using high-dose to his own admissions, anabolic steroids since he was 20 or something like that. So he made it to 75. You know, that's just a testament to exercise. That must've offset all the other shit to keep him alive that long. What was the cause? I don't know. I don't know what he died of. Did you read that, Doug? I saw everyone posting about it the other last week or whatever it was. Huge impact on the strength sport and power lifting and stuff like that. Well, right before we got on air, we were actually having an interesting conversation that I wanted to finish and we got interrupted is that you don't want to be a billionaire. Yeah, both of you. So we're just now, we're divvying out your money already that when you get to a place where you can start. We'll start the atom funds. You know what? Being a billionaire comes with so much scrutiny and pressure both politically and people just look to you differently that I don't know if I'd want that. And I don't know if your lifestyle, okay, maybe other people. My lifestyle wouldn't be different if I had 100 million versus a billion. I don't know what the hell I'd buy or do with a billion. Well, I don't disagree with that either. What about like, okay, so if you had to pick one, obviously you're gonna pick Elon Musk, but like a Richard Branson or like somebody else that's like doing cool shit with it. Like, who would you pick? I don't know, I mean, what cool shit? I don't know what cool shit, what would I do? You guys know me. Look what I do. I'm in the space race. The funny part you say that is, I know that you are out of all of us, you're the one that wants to start a charity or a nonprofit sooner than the rest of us. And I mean, from what I've heard, okay, because I don't know a lot of billionaires, but when you reach that level, it no longer becomes about making money. You have so much money that you're taking care of, your family's taking care of. Now it's really what kind of impact can you make in the world? And I kind of feel like that's right in your wheelhouse of, I mean, how great would that be that all you think about is like, how can I really, you know, leave a mark and really change? Now you're right. And so I think that that frees that up when you're at that level. Well, we want good people to have that kind of influence, you know, like that kind of power. And I think that's why like Elon Musk like has really shown, you know, like some of his latest moves has been like, wow, you can do cool things, you know, with that kind of. You know, this is why I really liked that. And I wish I would watch the undercover billionaire because it, you know, there's this like idea of like billionaires or these, you know, money hungry assholes, like. Super if they had privilege that people just gave them that money. Yeah. And you want, I mean, I can't help, but notice that now they, sometimes you'll see that they're ultra confident and sometimes people will receive that as cocky and arrogant and stuff like that. But then you watch them interact with people. I know it's a show, whatever, but I mean, like you still see some things that, you know, nobody is coaching them to talk that way or interact with these. They have disciplines and characteristics. Yes. They're just like, wow, I see why you're so successful. Yes. And they're admirable. No, that's true. And it's like, they don't get highlighted because we're, right now we have this weird time. I feel like, you know, maybe billionaires and millionaires were celebrated two decades ago or something, but now they're not. It's like, it's like shameful. It's like shameful to be that well. Yeah, it doesn't make it. If you made your millions or your billions through the market, it means you've produced something that people value enough that they've voluntarily given you their money. So you've actually provided a tremendous amount of value to a lot of people. And that's, that's for the most part commendable. Now, I know sometimes what people want can be distractions and alcohol and shit. I get that. So I'm not trying to be too generous. I'm not trying to say that's perfect, but nonetheless, for the most part, you've produced something of so much value to so many people that they've said, please take my money. What you've done is so valuable that I want to do this. I mean, that's a, for the most part, that's good. That's what you want. So no, I agree. And what you said, it's interesting. I had a conversation with Jessica about this last night, exactly this conversation. And I found, I wrote this a long time ago about this nonprofit that I wanted to do. And it was a big, this was an idea I had for a long time. I forgot all about it. And it was that I would, I wanted to figure out a way to connect coaches and trainers with people who are either going through cancer treatment or who survived and have beat cancer because I had a personal connection to that. And I wanted to figure out some kind of a charity or something. I actually wrote out, I remember writing this out where coaches and trainers can be connected to people to help them through exercise rehab and the value that that would bring. And it was just something that was personal to me. I don't know what that would look like. Arthur Brooks did say, though, that he helps people create nonprofits. So I'm gonna talk to him and see what the hell, because I have no idea. It feels like such a complicated thing. I love Arthur Brooks. I mean, he's, I know he doesn't talk about economics as much, but he's an economist and one of my favorite economists next to my other one, which is Peter Lineman, who I listened to. Yeah, so you're saying he's saying that there's no recession coming. We're gonna crush. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He didn't say that. Oh, he didn't. No, no, no, no, no, he didn't say that. He's just very bullish about the economy right now and in the next couple of years. Oh, really? Yeah. No, he thinks that we're gonna continue to see prosperity right now. And his logic behind that is what the GDP has grown over year, over year, over year for so long. And from that lockdown, it basically took it to a screeching halt. And right now we're trending, on average, I think it's 2.5% GDP growth year over year. And after we had that huge surge right now of like 3.5% or what that, and he just, and he goes, but when you look at that over the course of three years, we're actually already a little lower than average. And he goes to average that back out. You're gonna see it, you're gonna see it continue staying in this, he thinks in this kind of three, three and a half percent until it levels back down in the, in the two and a half percent. Oh, I see what you're saying. And of course, there'll be a like quote unquote mini recession to bring it back down to that 2.5 or, you know, 2%. So he doesn't think it's gonna go down below where we were before everything else? I mean, yeah, based off of the, if you could, if we were to continue to grow GDP by 3.5% the next two years, that even if we took a dive, we would still be ahead of- Was he taking into account, or did he comment on- His supply and demand is what he, he's like, it's, instead of getting over, making it too complex, he's like, it's just as simple as supply and demand. And add in when you infuse that much money. And we still, his, his theory is that we have not even come close to seeing the effects of all that money. So does he think there's gonna be more inflation then? Well, so yes. And, but the Fed will try and tamp that down by increasing rates. Did he bring up the, like the people are talking about potential food shortages coming up because of the- Well, that's all part of what's driving the inflation. That's also, I mean, the demand is so high. Everybody still wants all that. And so until, until we have a supply that is- Why has it been lacking substantial- I hate, you know what I hate about? What I hate about this is that, like, you tend to want to believe the person that makes you feel better about your own beliefs. I know I find myself doing that. I remember clearly, we all remember the 2008 crash. It was one of the big, it was the, what do they call it, the great recession, right? And everybody panicked and it was, it was pretty bad for a lot of people. I remember literally the year before, or even the months leading into it, people were like, this is, it's never gonna go down. We're crushing this. There was, who was it? It was the Fed chairman at the time. Yeah. You talked literally like six months before. No, there's no indications of any issues. It's gonna continue to grow. I mean, I intentionally listened to both sides, right? I'm always thinking of somebody who's like the, I mean, I've been listening to this one guy who's been yelling like, we're gonna see 2008 crash or worse. Oh no. And I like him. He's got a lot of good information and so, but I intentionally listened to him because he's on the other extreme. Does he know one of those that sells gold? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he, this one doesn't, but yeah, I know Peter Schiff is very much so like, Schiff's big on gold. The sky is falling. You know what's interesting about the last recession that we had was in 2012 was a record time for affordability for houses. Of course. In 2012. I mean, I still wouldn't have thought that. You're talking about over the last 20, 30 years or like that. I thought that was really interesting. There were 79% of United States homeowner or people that could buy homes, right? Could afford homes at that time. You know what's funny about that after 08? I remember also seeing this being in the Bay Area. House prices crashed everywhere, including the Bay Area. Always, of course, the Bay Area is more expensive than most places, but they did drop quite a bit. I remember people, smart people coming in and buying everything, buying everything. I remember being like, but everything's crashing. Obviously they were smart. Because everything not only didn't come back, but it went back. Well, I think that's his theory, too, of how the money's gonna come out, right? Because we still have after, I don't know how many trillions of dollars that we printed, but we haven't spent all of that. And there's a lot of people that are waiting for that correction or that little mini recession to happen, which is, in his theories, 60 to 90 day we'll see that. And then all you're gonna see is these people aggressively start buying again. Especially when you look at where the interest rates are. I mean, it's gonna be, we're at four right now. At the end of this year, it'll probably be four and a half, maybe five at the highest. It's still low. When I bought my first house, I had a two out of an 80, 20 split loan. And it was nine and 13%. So an average of 11%. Do you know how interest rates were in the 80s? When they rolled the question? Yeah, 80s was crazy, like 15, 17%. Yeah, dude. So, and that's how most people look at it like that. They're payment. Can I afford this? They don't think of like, oh, the house is $200,000 more. It's like, can I afford this monthly payment? And I already told you guys, I think the other thing they're gonna do to stimulate the economy is gonna be to do the 40 year mortgage show. So, you know, there is parts of me that believe, I know we have slowed down dramatically and I do think a correction is coming. I think we're gonna see it at the end of this year and the next year. But after listening to Lineman, I was just really surprised how bullish he was still. I mean, his thing that he says is like, I wouldn't bet against the US economy. I wouldn't, you know, everybody said how, if I would have told you all the things that happened, you know, in 2019 or 2020, all that was gonna happen. And where we'd be at right now with things, would you have predicted that? It was like, nobody would have thought that. Speaking of demand, I think I created some demand for Caldera today at the gym. So I was, hey, so quick question. What are appropriate things that guys can compliment you on? And what are things that feel weird when you get complimented on by a guy? You're looking jacked. Like, I'll take that. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, that's all right. That's appropriate. Like a specific body part that gets a little weird. Yeah, like you have really nice hamstrings, kind of weird. Glutes are real big now. So I'm in there, right? I finished steam and there's this older guy that's, and he's very talkative, nice dude. So if I see him, we bullshit a little bit. And I'm done with the steam. I come out and I take my cold shower and then I'm sitting in front of the mirror with my towel around me and I have my Caldera and I'm gonna put the oil on my skin. So I take it out, open it, put some on my skin, rub it in. And he goes, huh, what's that? So it's this face serum or whatever. He's really good. And he goes, that's why you have such- He's a big serum guy. He goes, that's why you have such nice skin. He goes, you know, I was thinking that, like you've got really nice skin. I'm like, I feel uncomfortable a little bit about that. I mean, I know the guy, like- You start bringing it in your gym bag and hustling around. Yeah, I just start slinging it down there. No, so he has to see the bottle. Bring your trench cut. No, he has to see the bottle. And I showed him the bottle and we started talking about it. And I'm like, no, it works really well. So my skin's oily, but it actually balances that out. And I said, I have friends with dry skin. It works really well. But I remember feeling weird, like, because he goes, you know, it's different, right? He goes, man, your arms are big. It's so nice. Can I touch it right now? Yeah, I'm like, thanks, thanks for the compliment. I was like, yeah, I've been noticing your skin. You've got really nice skin. I'm like, huh? Yeah. Come on, dude. Well, I was getting a compliment. Adam's like beard's super shiny. I don't know if you've been doing that, too. Do you put it in your beard? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, no, I love to put it in my beard, too. Yeah, I just want to do the whole thing, you know? It's like glistening. It does. Look at that. Glistening all over your body. Is that from? No, that's from Comfortable. Is it coming to America? Oh, is that what's? Water glistening all over your body. You know, what is that from? Is that that Soul Glow? That's my favorite, dude. When they have this Soul Glow in their hair, they go like this. Man, that's what drives me crazy. What is that from? I think it's coming to America. It might be. We'll go with that, yeah. No, the Soul Glow one's funny, because then they're all sitting up against the wall and they come off and there's an oil slick on there, which is hilarious. Anyway, I got some cool studies to share with you guys. Oh, but you have to talk about the alien UFO recent stuff. Oh, shit. Have you seen that before that? Well, I saw the Joe Rogan post, but I didn't go. I'm not like you guys, where you guys see stuff and get all crazy. So there's a Freedom of Information Act at first. Go read four hours of articles around the UFOs. So there's something called a Freedom of Information. Somebody's got to pay attention at them. Yo, no, I appreciate it. I'm not. That's not me shaming you at all. It just goes to show you how crazy times are. The news comes out like this and it's like on the fourth page. I'll worry about the economy for us so we don't go broke. Exactly. You guys keep me informed on the UFOs. We'll keep the pulse there. We'll keep the pulse on the alien invasion, OK? Like, thank us later. Save your money, the aliens are coming. OK, you got to bet anyway. Speaking of aliens coming, I heard that there's reports of being pregnant. That's part of it. What? So Freedom of Information Act is an act that requires classified information to be released after a certain period of time. So some of this information got released. And these are reports of people getting brain damage, having unexplained, being pregnant, unexplained. And there was something else, skin burns, radiation skin burns. So naturally, aliens. Is that how we go there? Default. But I know, that's the funny part. I wonder if some woman's like, she don't have a husband. She's like, what the fuck do I say? Denied, denied, denied. Yeah, there was this light. And then, yeah, I was pregnant. I already lied about the first one and said it was God What do I say with the second one? No, but I mean. I think they probe you anally. Like what? They're talking about you. Yeah, see, that's what I say. It's anal probing. OK, so tell me more about this. So they. These are reports. First of all, I actually didn't know that. So I didn't know what. The Freedom Act, you said? What'd you call it? Oh, Freedom of Information Act. Freedom of Information. So is that relatively new? I didn't know that. I didn't know we had that. No, they passed that. I want to say 10 years ago. I don't know if Doug can look it up. That's how we get all this crazy information from like the. Well, OK, so FBI CIA, like like all these like. That's why I was wondering why all of a sudden this stuff is servicing. I was like, why are we all sudden? You know, I'm always thinking like, OK, what's the. What's the desired outcome here or distraction or whatever that. But I didn't know this was in place where they have to release. And is it just like a certain time frame after like 10 years? What does it say, Doug? 1966. That's when it came out? Yep. Oh, shit. I don't know. It's like 50 years then, then. So 50. So 55 years every 55. So no, no, no, I mean, he said it's 55 years ago. OK, does it say how long like before you're able to then as public be able to read any. OK, so it says any any person has a right enforceable in court to obtain access to federal agency records, except to the extent that such records are protected from public disclosure by one of nine exemptions. OK, so this is why sometimes you'll get a free sounds fishy. You'll get a freedom of informations act like report. You ever seen these reports that come out? This was just released and like everything's blacked out. Yeah, except for like a few words. Well, that's well, thanks. So OK, it has to be in court. It's not like, I mean, is that. Yeah, I think you have to request it like I want to see this or I want to see that. I don't know. Was that old? I thought it was something that was a little it was newer. Well, anyway, these are reports of people that they investigated and they couldn't explain it. Well, yeah, they had radiation burns. We don't know how they got radiation burns. Yeah, you know, or yeah, this brain damage, you know, started happening to unexplain. We don't know. Aliens though, I don't know. Yeah, but they said it was fun to think. But yeah, all right, back to back to cool studies. They're coming out with drug releasing contact lenses. Drug releasing. So like drips in your eye. Yeah, for allergies. So people will put these contact. All my allergies are killing me today. I know you got excited. So you put these contact lenses on and it's anti allergy directly in your eye. And of course, the technology is they're looking at more potential applications for these particular types of contact lenses. Isn't that fascinating? Releases, like it's a time release. Something like that. I don't know how technology works, but that's right. That sounds crazy. Is there good absorption through the eye? Is that like a organ that's really good for like absorbing nutrients or allergies? Yes, I don't know how they would deliver other drugs that way. But now speaking of which, there's also. I started thinking about cocaine contacts. Isn't LSD sometimes put in the eye? Oh yeah, you're right. I didn't know that. That's true. I remember seeing that in a movie. I've never done that. I've never done that. Yeah, I'd call you the eagle. Yeah, that's never done that before. No, that's very interesting. That's true. So I bet you could. Is that they would drop it in the eye? You could. I remember watching a movie where someone did that. Oh yeah, someone, a friend told you also, huh? No, no. First of all, if I ever tried to psychedelic, the last thing I would do is do it in a weird way. I'd be like, I'm already scared. I'm not gonna do it in a weird way. I'm already nervous. Then there's some other sciences coming out where they're starting to develop drugs where they will test your DNA to find the most efficacious combination or types of drugs for your body because there are certain instances where some drugs which work very well for some people can cause adverse effects in other people or no effects. For example, pain relievers like codeine don't work in about 5% of the population at all. So they have to find, and the only way you know is if you test it. Or like a higher amount, like I know for redheads, like in terms of like pain medication, it's, you gotta like double the dose almost. That's true. You know what Katrina says? She claims that she gets nothing but nightmares from that. Opiates? Me neither. Really? Same thing. Yeah, she's like, I don't feel any pain relief at all and all I get is nightmares. Yep, wow, that's... Isn't that weird? Look at this. The first person I've heard say that, I've heard other people say the same thing too. Now look at this, the genetic code, here's another one. So the genetic code of one in 500 people puts them at a high risk of losing their hearing if they take particular types of antibiotics. But the only way to know is if you give them the antibiotic. So what they're starting to develop are DNA tests that will help them identify so that they don't have these types of accidents. Here's another one. Five to 7% of people would have a bad reaction to a particular HIV drug. Some have actually died because of it. So this is phenomenal science where they'll be able to test your DNA because one of the challenges with lots of drugs, especially drugs that affect the psyche, like antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications. You talk to anybody who's had to go through the process of finding the right anti-psychotic or anti-anxiety or basically drugs that affect the psyche. This is a trial and error. They'll tell you it took me two or three years to find the right combination. Yeah, I feel that. It's all trial and error. Imagine if we could erase that long period of shitty combinations where, oh, I felt like a zombie. Oh my God, I felt like killing myself. I have a lot of pain actually here. Here's some nightmares. Thanks, thanks doc. What the fuck? That's exactly what happens to me with that. So I have a confession and our partners over at LiveOnLabs will appreciate this. So I thought I had tried them all. I obviously had not because I asked you the other day about the uptake on creatine. And is that what it is? The alphalopoic acid helps speed up the uptake or absorb more? Yes, you will absorb more creatine when you take alphalopoic acid with it, which is great because the other way to do it would be to take a bunch of sugar. So instead of taking a bunch of sugar, you could use alphalopoic acid. Yeah, so I used it yesterday after my workout and it actually tastes good. I know. It's the only one. Yeah, why is that one taste good and all the rest of them not? It's not sulfur. Because some things taste good and some things taste bad. They don't go in. Consistently, the other ones are not good as far as tasting. Because their goal isn't to make it taste good. I know that. That's why I say it tastes like it works. So that should be their tagline. Tastes like it works. Yeah, it's efficacious. But this one actually tastes good. I thought there was something in it special that made it taste like that. I don't know what's in alphalopoic acid that's... I think it's, well, they might add a little something, but I think it's the alphalopoic acid itself that tastes mild. It has a taste that... What else would you find that in? Is there an eating where we would find that in something? I don't know. Because it has a taste that I recognize. Like, where have I had this before? I was gonna make a bad joke, bro. Please don't. Save it. Save it. You're like, you don't wanna know where this comes from. Yeah. I'm gonna look it up. Wow. I'm doing it. This is a high amount of alphalopoic acid and semen. I actually had no idea what it tastes like. I didn't know you were that much into whale semen. Whale semen contains a lot of alphalopoic acid. That's where I was going. Very strange. Another supplement that they have is their L-carnitine. Yeah. Acetyl L-carnitine. Now that's traditionally in pre-workouts. Yeah, and one of my favorite things about that is it increases androgen receptor density. All right, what does that mean? Your androgen receptors are what your testosterone attached to. And studies have actually shown that androgen receptor density has a much higher impact on your ability to build muscle and strength than your testosterone levels do. They actually did a big study where they took a bunch of men who didn't have extreme low levels of testosterone. So it was somewhere in the middle, but there was a range between low middle to high. And they wanted to see if those testosterone levels were correlated to strength and muscle gain. They also tested them all for androgen receptor density. Androgen receptor density was a far better predictor. Oh, I remember when Dr. Rand shared this, right? He told you that, didn't he? He did. Originally? Yeah, he said that to me actually because of how I had a lot of side effects from low testosterone, I didn't have that big of a side effect. And he said, well, you might have more androgen receptor density in your body. So your testosterone, so anyway, supplementing with it, we'll increase your androgen receptor density, thus making whatever your testosterone is more effective. So if I'm taking that synthetically right now, is it still valuable for me to use that? What do you mean? Would it be testosterone? No, I'm taking testosterone, right? So is it still valuable? Oh, okay. Yes, so whatever you're using will be more effective, right? If we can increase your androgen receptor density by 10%, your, I mean, for lack of, I guess this is very general, but essentially you're gonna have 10% more. And that's the L-carnitine? Yeah, okay. Yeah, L-carnitine does that. I should have done that all together. Speaking of which, you probably could have told me that when I was taking it. Speaking of which, as of the airing of this episode, just holding information. Doug, as of the airing of this episode, when's the next live Q&A in our hormone forum? Is it tomorrow? That is correct, yeah. Okay, so we dropped this episode. Tomorrow you can go on Facebook. And is it mind pump hormones? Yes. Yes, mind pump hormones on Facebook, yes. Okay, so it's a group. It's not private. Anybody can join. We've got Dr. Todd in there. And then Dr. Todd goes in there and answers whatever questions people have about hormones or about hormone replacement therapy or about peptides. And this is the company that we work with. He's one of the doctors there. And if you want like a consultation, well, they'll go through and do all the tests. That's different. That's mphormones.com. Right, so that's April 13th at 5 p.m. Pacific. Thanks Dr. I didn't say that at the time. Awesome, how long is it? When is the launch for our program end? Yeah, on Sunday. This coming Sunday. Oh, right. So right now, Map Symmetry, brand new program. You can get it. So it'll retail for $177. And the sale price is a lot less, right? $97. $97, so you get it for $97. And then what you also get included for free are the reverse dieting 101 ebook, which we're gonna sell for $47, but that's free. And then an isometrics ebook, which we'll also sell for $47, but you're gonna get that for free. So $97, you get Map Symmetry, and those two ebooks included. And it's all at mapssymmetry.com. So there's two S's in the middle. And is there a code, or is that gonna be? Yes, it's SYM50. SYM50. And this is the first time that we've ever done a launch like this where we've given away this much stuff. So, and those two books are fire. Oh, they're great. Absolutely fire. They're a legit book. They're legit. They're not like one or two pages. They're ebooks by themselves. So. Hey, real quick, check this out. Canabinoids have some pretty interesting effects in the body. I love taking cannabinoids to feel relaxed, uplifted, sometimes inspired. There's also anti-inflammatory effects, but a lot of products on the market are garbage. A lot of CBD products in particular, not NED. NED is full spectrum hemp oil. You can really feel, okay? So if you've taken CBD and not noticed a difference, try NED's hemp oil. You take it and you can really feel it. And they have different types of products. Some of them are specifically for sleep. So it's high in CBN and other botanicals. And then they have a general hemp oil extract product that you could take during the day. Again, it's the only hemp oil product that's high in CBD and other cannabinoids that I can actually feel. That's the stuff I can't even tell. Go check these guys out. Go to mindpumppartners.com. Click on NED, that's the company, NED. And then use the code mindpump for 15% off. All right, here comes the rest of the show. Our first caller is Tim from Illinois. What's up, Tim? How can we help you? Hey guys, it's kind of weird to talk to you. I feel like I know you, but I never met you. That's gotta be weird for you guys too. So I'm calling because over the last year I decided to change my training up a little bit. I'm 51. I've been training six days a week religiously for the last five or six years. The first couple of that were conjugate training and I've been doing mass programs for the last probably three years. I started training because of a chronic pain condition and it turns out oddly enough that resistance training was the only thing that helped me. Wow. So now I've gone from being sedentary, overweight, not active to being extraordinarily active. So the reason I want to change my training is over the winter I decided to really double down and just dial everything in strength training-wise. So I did an abbreviated version of anabolic and abbreviated version of performance and I've got a week and a half left in aesthetic. And the summertime I find myself now so busy with activity that I just want to do the least possible weight training over the next six months to not lose anything. I know I hear Sal, you talk about, it's hard to put on muscle, but it's easy to maintain. And then I hear Adam talk about what's the least amount of input to elicit the greatest amount of response. And I'm wondering how you put those two things together to kind of just maintain my strength over the next six months. And for me, I really want to strength train every six days a week. I already start my day with mobility. I started like 15 minutes with Prime Pro and then about a 45 minute walk with my dog. But it's just been so life changing for me. I want to do it. I don't know what I need to do. What I do know is I should never program for myself. So it'll become two maps programs stacked on top of each other if I do it for myself. So I'm kind of wondering what your input is on kind of a maintenance plan for the next six months. Well, I think we need to first reconcile your, so it sounds like you really want to still train six days a week though. I mean, yeah, you said the summer months you want to work out last, like, or you do- Yeah, so I want to be able to, you know, what I was thinking is maybe like, if I went in and did some, you know, did like 15 minutes of work and then 15 minutes of farmer's carries. Or if I did, you know, 20 or 30 minutes of kettlebell work every day. Oh, okay. Enough to touch it. And I don't want to jump back in next winter and have lost a lot of ground. Oh, I see. So you want to go to the gym six days a week? You just want to be able to do way less volume. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the gym's in my garage. So that's, I wouldn't, I would no more skip the gym than I would skip showering and brushing my teeth. So it's just a part of my day. Love that. I love that. Oh yeah, dude. We can have some fun here. Yeah, this is where we can get into some skills training and some, you know, some unique lifts to where you talk about like Turkish get-outs, we talk about, you know, windmills and some of these unique lifts that like a lot of people don't ever incorporate. This is a perfect time for folks. That's totally what went through my head. It was, you're on the exact same page as I am. Justin is, I'm envisioning like a maps anabolic type of routine and then the other three days that you're coming to the gym, it's maybe some trigger session with like a movement and like that movement be Turkish get-up one day, another day it's farmer carries. Then it sounds like you were already kind of thinking in this direction and I love that. I wanted to maybe not, because I did look at maybe taking like a maps anabolic and just splitting it up so I could just do a portion of the, because I don't, I'm so busy in the summertime. I literally, I'm putting in 10 to 15 miles a day and hiking and climbing and disc golfing and golf and I'm doing lots of stuff. So I want to cut down the time as much as possible. So if I could get, you know, if I maybe split anabolic into, you know, six different sessions and not do trigger sessions. I love that too. I do that, I do that right now. That's very similar to how I train right now is I follow a maps anabolic type protocol. Like last week I trained five days, but what I did was I took the three days of training of anabolic and kind of just dispersed it over those five days. So yeah, I mean, the cool part about this is that there's a lot of different options that you can do. And it's really kind of what I think that you enjoy the most. That's most important. I love the fact that you've made working out in your garage a, you know, like brushing your teeth or showering. And I never want to tell a client who's built that system like that for themselves and consistency to say, hey, you should really take, you know, three days off and stop working out. Like, no, awesome. Just let's modify what it looks like. And your idea of splitting anabolic is totally cool. Your idea of just doing maybe farmer carries. I mean, there, there, neither one of them are wrong answers. Yeah, Tim, you know, the, they've done studies on this and they'll show that it's like one ninth the volume is required to maintain strength and muscle that it took to build. It was one ninth, one seventh. Could I even cut down the number of sets in, in anabolic to make it even shorter? Just like I said, cause I want to touch, you know, touch it as little as possible, but still maintain. You know what? I always overdo things. Yeah. What I would do is if I were you, is I would, I would do one or two exercises every day. That's it. Now, if you're more functional focused during that period of time, you can make it more of a functional movement. You mentioned the sled. That would be one of them, for example, but a couple of exercises for a few sets, six days a week would be perfect. In combination with everything else that you're doing. And, you know, pick the movements that feel the best. Obviously the compound lifts are going to have a lot of carryover, but if you're really sore from hiking or climbing, or you know you have a big climb that day, then I would be more kind of mobility work that day. Have fun with it. Honestly, you've been working out for long enough now to where I think if you give yourself the 30 minute time limit to pick like two or three movements and you leave it up to whichever ones you feel are going to feel best for you, it's going to be hard to go wrong with that. Oh man, there's so much opportunity I feel like to really work on sharpening your kettlebell swing, doing kettlebell snatches, like getting into may spell training. There's just like lots of things people don't ever consider. This is one of those things that I do it all the time just to keep my body functioning and moving properly and strength driven, but not always overloading it and giving it some time away from just like beating the crap out of it all the time. So I would try and really expand your mind in terms of like learning a new skill that you can then bring with you coming back. Yeah, and Tim, consider this. You've heard us talk to athletes, right? About off season training versus in season training. For sure. Very similar to what you're doing. So off season, you've already done that. Now you're in season, you're going to be climbing, you're going to be hiking, you're going to be doing lots of hiking lots and lots of activity. Your workouts now should be really to prevent injury and maintain mobility. Don't do the workouts to improve performance because otherwise you'll push yourself a little too hard and your chance or risk of injury will go up. So 30 minutes of what's going to make my body perform better for the important stuff which is all the other stuff that you listed that you do during the summer. And then when you go back to winter training, you're going to crush. Perfect. No, that's good news. I make Derek Rose the bulletproof. So I do really easily. So it's good to hear that. So yeah, that's great advice. I really appreciate it. Tim, why we have you? Why don't you let the audience know? You have a blog, for the audience, they don't know. This is the first time we've actually formally met here is you're our best affiliate that we have out there. You write all kinds of great articles around our programming. And obviously you've got a lot of experience in them. Why don't you give a shout out to where to find you? Well, thanks, man. It's Jim Crafter.com, which is the word Jim, and then Crafters, C-R-A-F-T-E-R.com. And basically what I'm doing is I firmly believe that a home gym should be a staple on everybody's home. I mean, the real estate listing should say three bathrooms, two bedrooms, and a gym. I like that. My goal is to have that in everybody's house. I love that you guys work with TRX. But yeah, it's a few equipment reviews, but really I've done most of your programs and I've put reviews up there for people to kind of see what a normal user would like. So I appreciate you. Let me give the shout out, man. I'm really on a mission to quit a career of 30 years to do this for a living. So I really believe in it. And you guys have really motivated me to take that big step. So thank you. Good deal, thank you, Jim. Keep doing it, man. You're great. Good luck, brother. Thanks, man. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. So I got a question for you guys, right? At some point in our lifetimes, the most houses come with a garage. It's gonna be, no one's gonna park cars in there because electric cars will take over. And it's probably, a lot of people will be using these electric car services, most likely. You're not gonna own a car. What do you guys think garages are gonna be used for? Because he said a gym in every house and I thought, yeah, that would be great. Gym are converted to a bedroom. That's what I thought, too. Either a bedroom or a gym. What do you guys think? I mean, it's just gonna depend, right? You know, how many families could use an extra bedroom, right? Like I grew up in less bedrooms than kids type of household. So in that household, the garage couldn't be converted to a bedroom. In fact, we've done that in some places that I live where our family did that. But I actually think you could do both. I mean, when you have something, that's why I love PRX. I mean, I park all my cars in the garage and I've got a gym in the garage. To me, that's what makes that so cool is that you don't have to sacrifice one. And technically, if I wanted to convert it into a bedroom, I could have a bed in there, too. So that's what's cool. No, I agree. But I think having a gym at home, especially if you prioritize fitness, and you have a family and a job, so valuable. It's so valuable. It's, I think it's, I recommend it to everybody. I, you know, I love, it was so great to meet Tim finally because we've talked about him for a while now. And I love a client that's in this place. Yeah. Because there's so, we can- It's fun now. Yeah. And maybe the only challenging for me or us on the, doing this on a podcast is that I wish I was kind of with him week to week to kind of feel him out. Like, are you liking that or what do you think? You want to try this now? And I mean, this is a situation where I would try different things. Like Justin was saying, like to me, this is such a great opportunity to pick up a new, a new movement, you know, and practice at it and get good at it. Totally. And you're not training to lift a bunch of weight, you're trying to get good at it. I think it's harder, you know, for somebody to think of those things on their own. And that's like to your point, like if I was coaching him specifically, I would have a lot of fun with, you know, that, that mentality. Cause like I could introduce him to so many different things that it takes a lot of time to learn and develop these new skills. But then once you establish those skills and you get proficient at them, it compliments so much of your work. I did that one summer. One summer I did every day, I had a dip pull-up station. So I do dips pull-ups and jump rope. And I thought, I'm going to get good at this and just practice this every day for 20 minutes. And I got really good at all three of them in a very short period of time. Yep. Our next caller is Drew from Indiana. What's up, Drew? How can we help you? What's up guys? Hey, thanks for having me on. You got it. All right. So I'll give you a little background. My wife and I have been consistently macro tracking for approximately the last three and a half months. During that time we completed a maps power lift when we saw significant strength gains, however no aesthetic gains in this phase, but by far our favorite program. We're now entering phase two of maps aesthetic. Throughout power lift in phase one of maps black, we were either in a slight caloric surplus or a maintenance phase. Now entering phase two of aesthetic, we're starting our calorie deficit. So you guys will be happy to know in maintenance she was eating roughly 2,600 calories with no weight change. Same for myself but slightly higher calories. So prior to starting the program, I factored our macros using the old school nutritional guide from you guys. And then now using the new calculator off the website, there were some macro discrepancies I guess if you will. So the question is, can you manipulate your macros or is it all calorie based? I understand going in waves with some days being bulk, some days maintenance and some days a cut, but manipulating fat and carbs from what is calculated, can you change your body composition or can you manipulate these based on how you feel and see the same aesthetic gains? Oh, that's it. So for example, in the bulk my wife felt and lifted better with higher fat and slightly under carbs, but she noticed no aesthetic gains, just strength gains. She's also five months postpartum and breastfeeding, which may have played a role in this, but would she have seen more aesthetic gains sticking to her macros to a T or did that play no factor? Are we assuming calories are staying the same? Yes, sir. Yeah, most likely the same. And here's the thing, keep in mind when you manipulate carbohydrates, you're also gonna end up seeing a difference in water retention in your body. For every three grams of carbohydrates you intake, your body holds on to three ounces of water. So if she were to reduce her carbohydrate intake, which could be a positive thing or a negative thing looking at our physiques. Like if the extra carbohydrates filled her muscle bellies out, it might make her look more fit. If the lower carbohydrate intake made her have a flatter look, it may make her muscles look less defined. But a lot of that is just the perception. It's not really what's going on body fat percentage wise. So if calories are the same, manipulating carbs or fat up or down is really not gonna make a difference so their aesthetic goals really, it may temporarily for like a photo, but what's really going on body fat percentage wise and building muscle is gonna be the same. If calories are equal and really the answer for somebody is what do you feel best doing? Do you enjoy the higher fat? And I love to play with both and I encourage people to do both where you run a higher fat for a while and see how you feel then run lower carb and then cycle them around. I think it's good for us to kind of to mess with that. But you're, we're splitting hairs as far as like, can you really make a difference aesthetically by not changing the calories but by just manipulating macros? But visually, yes, like temporarily, if that makes sense. You know what I'm saying? Like if I had you on the calories all the same and we're low carb, low carb, low carb, like really low carb for like four or five days in a row calories all the same. And then all of a sudden I flip you to, you know, 350 grams of carbs. You will look different the next day but it's not because you added a bunch more muscle or lost a bunch more fat. It's what we manipulated was the carbon take and probably the water retention that's going on. And so it will look different. So the feeling that she may have that she didn't really change aesthetically maybe just because she was manipulating her carbohydrate intake. If that, does that make sense? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, Drew, ultimately here's what the studies say and this is just general. Okay. Cause, you know, Adam said something that's very important. He referred to the individual experience because it can be very different from person to person. Right. Generally speaking, there's a minimum requirement when it comes to proteins and fats, those are essential. So we got to say that because I don't want people listening to this and thinking they can cut fats or proteins out completely and be okay. You can't, you'll die. You need a minimum amount of protein and fat. Carbohydrates, they're not essential. You can cut those out completely and some people would do just fine and you definitely wouldn't die, right? So there's that. Number two, studies show generally speaking a high protein diet to be better for body composition. What's high protein? About 0.6 to one gram of protein per pound of body weight in average weight individuals. If you're really obese, then you want to go off of lean body mass. But that's generally true for most people. High protein diets tend to build more muscle. They tend to help with satiety, which also help with fat loss. Carbs and fats are interesting. Now again, generally speaking studies show that higher carbohydrate diets improve anaerobic performance. You'll be stronger. Does that contribute to more muscle gain? I believe it does. I've tried to build muscle on a low carb, no carb diet and on a higher carb diet. Calories being equal. I build more muscle with carbohydrates. Most people I've worked with are like this, but not all of them. There's some people who work much better the other way around. So that's generally speaking. Now at the end of the day though, there's some interesting individual variances. I've worked with people who do much better with diets that are low carbohydrates and high fat and vice versa. You also mentioned your wife has postpartum and breastfeeding. Her hormones are not gonna be back to what they were before until she stops breastfeeding. It takes a few months after breastfeeding for things to kind of regulate. So whatever's working for her now is gonna probably likely be different later on in terms of how she feels and whatnot. Consider that as well. And then aesthetically speaking, that's a tough one, right? Cause it's the mirror, it's your own perception. If you're getting stronger consistently, ultimately that's gonna mean more muscle. So ultimately means you end up building more muscle which usually improves aesthetics. But that's- She keeps telling me she's hungry so that's a good sign. Yes, very good. And it's a great sign she's getting stronger. She has the energy, she feels good, five months postpartum. I mean, I've trained a lot of women postpartum and most of them don't start feeling like themselves until a few months after they stop breastfeeding. So sometimes that's a year later and sometimes depending on when they stop the breastfeeding. That's more common in my experience. It's less common for someone to feel great a few months afterwards and they're still breastfeeding. So consider all those things but at the end of the day, it's the individual variance. So don't question too much when it's based off how you feel. If your wife says, I'm stronger and feel way better when my carbohydrates are low. Don't think to yourself, well, studies show that carbs are better for anaerobics. No, no, no, that's, believe her. Like that's what's going on for her. And the same thing is true for yourself. So I've seen some pretty wild variations. None of them outside of the general rules but there's a lot of room within the kind of the general rules that I talked about. So consider that. Well, thanks guys. You got it Drew. And you said- You guys take care. You guys are following Maps Aesthetic, right? Maps Aesthetic, we just entered phase two did the first workout yesterday. What are you guys doing after that? We actually were gonna run Maps OCR, I think. Oh, that'll be a great one. Do you guys have that program? I don't, sir. All right, you do now, Drew. Thanks man, you guys are awesome. You got it brother. Thank you. Always looking for that Oprah moment. Yeah, it just makes you feel good. You get a car, you get a car. Costs a lot of money to electronically give someone access to it. How much did he say she was on the cut now? 2600? Yeah, I was like, wow, that was amazing. Bro, this is five months postpartum. Now consider when you're breastfeeding, you're also burning more calories. But 2600 calories, I don't care man. Yeah, great place. That is fire. No, it was a good question because I think- No, it is a great question. We sometimes overcomplicate. And then what that'll do, I mean how many times have you guys worked with someone where they're three months into a diet that they're supposed to work and they'll feel terrible and you're like, it's not working for you. Well, it also highlights though when you manipulate carbohydrates like this, how you can look different. Oh, totally. You know, that was one of the things- That's the fastest way to look different. Yeah, one of the things that I struggled with on the ketogenic diet was also just my pumps were terrible and I never felt filled out. Totally. And being that that's my insecurities, being the skinny little guy or like that. I remember it messing with my head, being like, oh man, I just don't feel, so you could easily be doing great, but because your muscle bellies aren't all filled out, you think you're not making gains that you potentially are. So just- Or vice versa, you're the person who's so scared of being heavy. You cut carbs, you lose five pounds of water and you're like, this is the one for you. Even though you're constipated and you feel like crap, right? Our next caller is Megan from Georgia. Megan, what's happening? How can we help you? Hi, hi guys, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, thanks for calling in. So a little bit of backstory. My goal right now is to lose body fat percentage. That's what I'm really trying to focus on. Roughly about seven to 8%, I would say. I'm following maps aesthetic and I'm very disciplined on my diet. I rarely ever miss a workout, trying to get in all of my protein every single day. I feel like I do everything right, but I'm not seeing a significant change in my body for the effort that I'm putting in. My husband and I have very busy social lives. I travel for work a lot. We go to baseball games. We go to breweries on the weekend. So drinking alcohol unfortunately and fortunately is a huge part of my life. So the main area I'd like to see a change in is my core. I've got good muscle tone all around I think or I'm pretty happy with it at least, but after having a C-section no abs have never really been the same. So my question is, is alcohol really that big of a detriment to fat loss or can I still enjoy a few drinks every week and see results? And if it is, what are some tips on changing my mentality for the short-term? You know, I don't believe this is something I could or would want to do indefinitely. I, you know, cut it out of my life completely, but I do know that sacrifices might need to happen in order to reach a short-term goal. So I wanted to get your take on that and hopefully get some tips. Megan, have you tried smoking weed? Yes, and I don't really enjoy it. No calories in joint. I hope she still likes us after this answer. No, I enjoy the- I mean my physique speaks for itself. Drinking, like sitting out on a patio and having a glass of wine. I'm totally joking. And doing the social aspect. I am totally joking, I'm easy to do. Okay, so alcohol has got about seven calories per gram essentially. It's almost as high in calories as fat. So it's pretty high in calorie. It's not a benign drink, obviously. You know this already. Yeah, fat has some actually benefits to it. There's like zero benefits for the alcohol. Aside from the social- Yeah, no, yeah. As far as like what it's aesthetically speaking, since we're talking about body fat percentage goals, at least fat has some, you know, properties to it that are beneficial for your- There's essential fat, yes. There is nothing essential about alcohol. Us drinkers. How many? Justin, can I talk? Here, yeah. So Courtney and I have actually gone through this a bit. You would be surprised at how much like inflammation that is displays from, it's very visible that, you know, us drinkers. That it portrays. So if you cut it down and reduce it down, it does make a substantial difference. So to say that it's like, you know, a calories in, calories out thing is really not the whole story. Yeah, there's more. But Megan, let's get more specific. I want you to be really honest, okay? How many drinks do you average a day? I don't drink every day. And I knew that question was coming. So I don't drink every day. It's mostly like on a Friday or a Saturday, especially like a Saturday where we might have a, you know, a couple glasses of Prosecco at brunch and then it leads into, you know, a couple glasses of wine at dinner. And so for the full, you know, maybe Thursday to Sunday, it's probably around 10 to 12 drinks, I would say. Okay. And a mixture of that. So like truly wine, like a vodka soda water, I stay away from heavy beer, I stay away from the mixed sugary drinks. But it's still, I'm seeing, like you said, the inflammation I know, I know it's that. Lots of bloat, lots of formation. I mean, if you're going for aesthetic goals, this is definitely a deterrent. Yeah, you could trade, you could trade, look, you could try doing this. A lot of people try doing this. I'm going to tell you, it's a very hard, it's not going to give you what you want necessarily, but some people trade alcohol calories for food calories. So they say, okay, I'm having two glasses of wine that's going to give me 300 calories. That means I had to cut my food intake by 300 calories or whatever to make up the difference. So I mean, you can do that. What Adam said is 100% right though. There's no nutritional value. That's the problem with that. If you trade out a thousand calories of say fat carbohydrates, protein for a thousand calories of alcohol, it's not an even exchange. Because the thousand calories of food, especially with protein and stuff, and especially since most of my female clients struggle with hitting protein, if you replace that with alcohol, it's not just an even trade. It might be on the scale. So maybe the scale doesn't really move that much because the calories are the same, but you're not going to be able to sustain the same muscle mass. Here's the come to Jesus moment I would have with you if you were my client. It's kind of what I was hoping for. Okay, so here's the deal. It's like, you're five, six, and 151. I, without even seeing you right now, I imagine you're pretty good shape. I mean, but it sounds like you want more. You want this, I want to look bad ass in my bikini, which is totally a fair goal. But what comes with that is another level of sacrifice. And the question is, do you really want it that bad? Is it worth giving up some of those social events that you really enjoy doing? And I would not impose my thoughts on you at all. I would pull it out of you. I would say, listen, Megan, I think you look great. You're doing great. You've got great balance in your life. Sounds like you and your husband have a great weekends and you enjoy yourself and you still manage to stay in shape the rest of the time. Like I would really challenge you in saying, is that bikini body that you're saying, is it really something you really, really want that bad? And if so, then we have to evaluate some of these other things that you're doing that fly right in the face of those results. So that would be my come to Jesus moment with you is challenging your thoughts on your, do you really want that that bad? Or is it sound like, yeah, I'd really like that, but I don't want to give this up. Like if you're saying shit like that to me, then I'm just going to tell you like, listen, you got, you got good balance right now. Can it be a season? You know, can you look at it like that? Like right now we're just tightening it up. And this is a goal of yours. It's very focused for a goal, you know, it just requires a bit more to get further. And I don't know exactly like, so is this in terms of your training? So you said you're doing more like aesthetic type training right now. It was maps aesthetic. Yeah, I'm following maps aesthetic. Okay. And how, how long have you been doing that style of training is my question. I have been lifting consistently for about a year and a half. Before then I was all, I was the cardio train and the orange theory and you know, the berries. I love that style of training. And then I had a coworker who kind of introduced me to more like five by five workouts. And then I found your guys's podcast and absolutely fell in love with it. Love the process. But it's, I mean, and I have to get up at five 30 every morning and work out cause I have a child. So I make it happen. I make it work. I'm super disciplined in my nutrition. And for me, it's almost like I'm doing all of this work and not seeing the results I want. So something has to get. So that is the come to Jesus, you know, question I guess like what are, what am I okay with? Yeah, try these two things. Try cutting one day of alcohol and try reducing the volume of your training. I think maps aesthetic is too much volume. It's too much volume for most people. So many people picked that program because it's called aesthetic, but it's too much volume for me most of the time. Anabolic, yeah. Yeah, I follow maps aesthetic. And then for three months, I do stuff with low volume. I can't do it consistently. I've been working out for a long time, you know? And so I would say two things you could do. You could cut one day of alcohol, like Justin said, make it a season. That'll make a big difference, by the way. When I train clients like you, because you sound like like a lot of people I've trained, we cut one day of alcohol out and they're like, whoa, this is huge. It's like crazy, what a difference. One day, so you could do that. And then I would go maps performance or maps anabolic because aesthetic is a lot of volume. You might be training too much considering your busy life and your workout history. And that just means you're not gonna respond very quickly. Give her anabolic, Doug. And I'm gonna push you a little bit different, Megan. I like what Justin said. Because when is Vegas, by the way, do you have a Vegas trip planned? I do, it's six weeks away. Okay, see, so this is what I would encourage you, hey, six weeks of your life, I believe you can do anything. Right, a week of that is a Bachelorette trip in Palm Springs and a golf tournament in Hilton Head on the beach. So. Oh, yeah. You all look good, so here we go. Oh man, it's all weeks though. You know what, too? It's also fun to abstain and then go have alcohol when you haven't had it for five, four, five weeks. I mean, so that would be what I would do for you is just, I would say let's challenge yourself and let's pretend like I'm trying to get you ready for a bikini show. And let's train, let's eat, and let's sacrifice that way for a while and see how you like it. And what you may see is maybe giving up a few of those social events you see is worth it. You might go, God damn, I've never looked and felt this way before and saying no to a few weekends in a row wasn't as hard as I thought it'd be and it's definitely made up for the way I feel now. Or you may be like, I feel a little bit better, but I don't feel that much better. And boy, I really missed out those last couple of weekends. Fuck that. I'd rather work through my insecurities about my body than actually sacrifice that social side of the, so that would be, if we were training together, this would be kind of the conversations you and I would be having during this process. And really my goal as the coach is to really get down to what it is that you truly, truly want. And in theory, it does sound great to have this great bikini body and then also be able to drink 1,000 calories of alcohol every week. But the reality is that they just, they completely conflict with each other. And I think that disciplining yourself for a four to six week period of time of like some serious sacrifice on the alcohol side, just to see what kind of, what that could potentially do as far as changing your physique. I would probably try and get you to at least try that. And then us together decide like, okay, was that worth it or not? Great advice. And again, it's also fun to abstain and then go somewhere where you really let loose. It could make the trip so much funer to show up. Oh man, last five weeks I was strict and I trained and I'm lean. You work towards it. And now we're gonna party and have a good time. And I mean, that's the way I kind of do it. I don't know if that's necessarily a healthy approach, but it's a lot of fun, you know? Especially if you know how to balance it out afterwards. Right, but that helps a lot. That's really actually what I was looking to hear. So I think that's great advice. I do have a question though about something you said with maps aesthetic because I'm in phase two and I honestly don't feel like it is too much volume. I think I put in my notes, an ex-gymnast, ex-chairleader. So physically I am pretty fit. So if you think it's too much volume, can I ask why you think that? It just is for most people and based off of your busy lifestyle, but what makes you feel like it's not enough volume? I don't know that it's not enough. I think it is a good amount. Like I did it this morning and at the end of my workout, I didn't feel exhausted. I felt ready for the day. Even on some of the moves, I felt like I could have done like four or five reps instead of three. Are you getting stronger? Let me see if those make sense. Are you getting stronger, Megan? I am. Oh, well, you're doing fine then. Yeah, I'm not against her staying with worship. If you're getting stronger, it's fine. If you're not getting stronger, then... If she's getting stronger, you're not suffering from a bunch of chronic pain. You feel good at the end of your workouts. There's times you feel a little more. I think you're in a good place. I think you're in a good place The real conversation is around the alcohol thing right now. It really is. Like getting to drink 1,000 calories of alcohol every weekend is a very nice luxury to have. And to be honest, I think, again, I can't see you, but knowing you're five, six, and 151, I definitely know you're not obese. I know you're in probably a pretty good place. You're just critical of yourself and you want another level of fitness and another level of fitness comes another level of sacrifice. And that's what I would tell you if you were my client and maybe you think you really want that, but maybe when you do it, I mean, here's the deal. I have no desire to walk around like a competitive Adam did. It felt cool. It was really cool when I did it and it felt amazing and it was the best I ever felt in my life, looks wise. But the amount of sacrifice that I had to do in order to maintain a physique like that, it just wasn't worth it. Katrina's family gets together and barbecues and drinks damn near every weekend also. And I like to go and do events. I like to eat out and I just enjoy a lot of those things. And so I prefer to have a more balanced life. Now, if I had a Vegas trip coming up in six weeks, I have the tools and the ability to say, you know what, I can clamp down and say no to a couple of these events or not drink at them for six weeks just so I could bring the best version of me to Vegas. Like, and I would. But if it's the rest of the year, I'm gonna enjoy the nice balance of my life and you're healthier that way, truthfully. Yeah, it's much nicer to hug them too. It's no better. Workouts are better. I totally agree. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Well, maybe we're sending you a free map Santa Bollock anyway. Oh, well, thank you. No problem. Thank you. Well, good luck. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. It was very helpful. Thank you. Have fun in Vegas. Thank you. I mean, this should not sound like so many clients. Oh, that's another, you know, today's questions I felt like a lot of, a lot of. You guys answered, I mean, beautifully. I loved what you guys said because it's, I mean, it's really what it boils down to. It's like, well, which one's more important to you? Cause that was always a trade-off. And I think people want both, but you can't necessarily have both. And I know there's, there's a fitness person right now that is, you know, grumbling because they have found a way to look shredded themselves and they drink. I drink all kinds of white claws and Zimas. And they use that as a selling point and an angle to people that they're able to do that. They're probably fucking 28 years old and move like crazy and have a lot of muscle mass. And it's like for the average person that, you know, the average mom that just wants to look good for Vegas time, the thing I would tell her is just like, okay, let's just, let's just buckle down for the next six weeks. Tighten it up, man. Alcohol is an interesting substance because it ruins your aesthetics, but it makes everybody else you look at more aesthetic. So it's a very weird substance. It's a double-edged sword. It's just, it's hard for somebody, her size to allow that many calories of alcohol. It's more than a thousand, bro. If it's, if it's like 12 drinks, I mean, it's more like 13, 14 hundred. Right, right. So that's a, that's a lot. And think in order to not gain a bunch of weight from that, you've got to pull out other calories. So what are we pulling out? You know, what are you, what are you? All valuable stuff. Yeah, what are you sacrificing? Most likely some proteins, carbs and fats and all those things contribute to your aesthetics. So. Not to mention, you know, getting munchies and cravings while you're drinking. And not to mention what you said too. Like a lot of things like Katrina, like when Katrina stopped, like, so she did, she went dry the whole January, right? And instantly she looked like she lost 15 pounds. It's inflammation. Yeah. Cause she's in, and I was explaining to her, I'm just like, it's not, it's, it's not like you, it's not like you lost 10 to 15 pounds. What happened was that your body released that water that you're holding on, you were in, you were inflamed. And that just shows you that alcohol is insult, is insulting you. You just don't, you've learned to live with that for so long that you don't think it's really. It's not going to get you stage ready. Yeah. I want to reiterate cannabis has zero calories. Our next caller is Jamie from Arizona. Jamie, what's happening? How can we help you? Hi there guys. I just wanted to start off by saying thank you so much for all of your great information. I wouldn't be the personal trainer I am today without your help. And I think my horses have benefited from it as well. So anyways, I'll get into my question. I'm a barrel racer, I'm a horse trainer and I'm also a personal trainer. And I'm looking to currently optimize my routine. So I'm running maps performance right now three times a week. And I am about happy with my appearance, but I need to lighten up my body weight a little bit for my sport of barrel racing. Typically I ride about five horses a day. So I'm very active. And amongst those days of training and doing the horse riding, I'm also teaching spin class at the gym two times a week. Right now I weigh about 160 pounds. I'm five foot eight and I'm sitting at 18% body fat. I'm eating 3,000 calories a day. And I have the feeling I might be doing a little bit too much with my training right now. I am also a little bit worried about cutting back on my current routine because I don't want to lose any of my glute gains that I worked very hard for. And also I think my barrel racing is definitely becoming my number one priority in starting to race professionally. And so that's where I really wanna back off on my weight a little bit and I'm willing to lose some gains to sacrifice to run faster in the saddle. So whatever you guys have for advice, I'm willing to take it. I've been loving maps performance so far. So thank you so much for that amazing program. Jamie, you're obviously a high level athlete. 160 pounds, five, eight, 18% body fat. 3,000 calories a day. Anyway, 3,000 calories a day. You have a lot of muscle. Yeah, yeah, I'd like to, I mean, it's your program. It's been great. I can't eat enough of it. That's incredible. I mean, you're really, here's the deal, you're lean. So in order to lose more weight, I mean, we could get you a leaner, but you might have to lose a little bit of muscle too in order to be more effective at your sport. Cause there's a, with what you're talking about, you're talking about strength versus weight ratio. So, and that's going to be really tough. You've got a lot of muscle on your body. This is more of a diet thing than a training thing. Cutting your calories will get you where you want to go. And you're already eating 3,000. You have a big, you have a lot of room to go down. So cutting your calories is going to get you what you're looking for. Will you lose some of your booty gains? I mean, maybe a little bit, but with the amount of the muscle and the body fat percentage that you're at, I don't think you're gonna, I think you'll be just fine. I think you're gonna be totally fine. That's all I would do. I would just pull back the calories a little bit and just see what happens from there. I mean, in a perfect world, I might have you, I would like you to probably cut back a little bit on the amount of stuff that you're doing. But honestly, like you're a high performing athlete, you're eating a good amount of calories for sure. You're at a great body weight and body fat percentage. You just obviously say, you want to drop a little bit more to improve your sports, your performance. So yeah, I would restrict calories a little bit and you've got plenty of room to do that. Yeah, I mean, if you went down to 2,500, you would end up losing some weight and I don't think you would lose a lot of strength doing that. So your strength to weight ratio would probably be pretty darn good. But I mean, again, the numbers you're giving us is like. Yeah, run a 2,500 calorie diet for two weeks or so and then go back to like a 2,800 calories and see how you feel in that range and see how you look, feel and weight, what it's at right around there. I'd play with that. Okay, thank you. Cause I jumped down to 2,300 while I was running maps hit. I actually got the, I think it's called the sexy athlete bundle. So I ran maps hit and that just felt like a little too low calorie for the 2,300 jumping down from 3,000. Yeah, that's a big jump. Go down 500 is the most I would do with someone as active as you with as much muscle as you have. And I'd actually lean as you are. And I'd only do it for like two weeks and then I'd actually put you back to like 28. I just, I would use the 2,500 calorie drop for two weeks just to see if I can drop you a couple pounds real quick. And then I'd put you at a more balanced place like 28 where you're probably going to feel pretty damn good. Cause 18% body fat too for a female's lean. I mean, you're doing great. I wouldn't want you, if you as an athlete, I wouldn't want you lower than, I mean, the lean is 16, 17% of the lowest. And you lower than that, you might start to notice changes in hormones and in performance. Yes and no to that. I mean, it depends. Cause here's the thing like Katrina, you would never guess what Katrina's body fat percentage. She walks around at 11% bro. Oh well. Consistently. But so a lot of people just, how, where and how you store it? Yes, 11 to 12. I've never seen Katrina test over 13 and she doesn't look that lean. It depends. There's definitely a variance. I'm speaking generally. Yes, I just want to be careful all the time cause she may be able to go down. But considering how much work she's doing, the amount of muscle she carries, how many calories she's eating. I wouldn't try and chase getting super shredded, but cutting your calories, like we said, I think that would be it. That would be answer. If you feel like you're working out too much because you feel tired and fatigued and your joints are stiff, then you probably are doing a little too much. In which case I'd say. Well, I like her shift from hit to performance. Yeah, performance is perfect. Because yeah, you're now you're reinforcing and getting the mobility sessions in between. And you know, it's got more restore developments in there. But yeah, if everything you're doing, you're so active to begin with. This is a hard one for me to, you know, weight cuts in general are really a hard one for athletes when they're already performing at a high level. It's the whole weight versus the weight to strength ratio thing, right? That you're aiming for. But Jamie, what's the, if you don't, do you know what the average weight is of a high level of a competitor at your level at your sport? So most of the girls I'm competing against, they're around 120 to 130. Okay. 130 pounds. So you're a good 30 pounds heavier than the average one, but you're probably also a lot stronger. Right, right. That plays a role. But then again, you're obviously on a horse so the weight can make a difference. She's tall too, right? Didn't you say you were 5'8", right? 5'8", yeah. You're probably taller than the average girl too. I'd imagine they're probably more like 5'3", right? Is that true? Yeah. They're very petite girls, similar to jockeys. You know, you want to be lightweight so that those horses can run super fast. I mean, I think the calorie thing that we advise is fine. And then I wouldn't chase it too hard to try to lose too much because then you're going to be losing a lot of muscle and you'll be sacrificing, like you're in a really good place. I mean, when you're done with the sport, you're going to still be with this body. So I wouldn't want you to try to lose a ton of muscle to win this competition and then afterwards be stuck in this kind of bad position. Oh, okay. That's a really good point. Yeah, I was kind of thinking I might end up losing a little bit of muscle. So I'm just playing around with a good balance of how I can maintain some muscle mass but also lighten up just a little bit. So that's very helpful. Thank you. I wouldn't have you lose. I wouldn't have you go below 150. I mean, you're really, you're in a great place. Fast metabolism. I mean, this is going to be, this is going to carry you for a long time if you can maintain this physique. It's really good. Excellent. And as far as my training goes, after max performance, should I cycle into like an anabolic phase or what would you guys suggest for following max performance? If you're going to keep doing what you're doing with the horses, I would say a little more functional, similar-ish program to anabolic would be MAP Strong. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so do you have MAP Strong? I do not currently have that. No. All right, good. We got something we can send you then. We'll send you MAP Strong. Gosh, thank you guys so much. I've been wanting to try that one in particular but I wasn't sure how to go about it. You know, after which phase I should put it in at. That's a great point. Yeah, so there you go. Is there anything else we can help you with? No, thank you guys so much for everything. Like I said, you've even made my horses better. I'm training them better. Wow. I'm training my clients better and so I really have a lot of appreciation for you guys and for your show. Thanks for having me on. Awesome. Thank you so much for calling in. Thank you, Jamie. Keep killing it. Thank you. Bye, guys. Bye. That was a hard one because she was like, I mean, calories are high, fast metabolism, a lot of muscle, she's lean. It's like, and I've done this. I've trained athletes where we, in order to get them in a weight class, we have to drop some muscle and I hate, as a trainer, getting someone to lose muscle is like cutting off a limb, you know what I mean? It's similar to people that are like really responsive in certain muscles and their body parts and they're like, I just don't want to train it anymore. Yeah. It's like, what? Like, look at you. This is also an example where, you know, high level sports aren't necessarily really healthy for us either, right? Cause like if she was like so competitive that we were going to sacrifice. Starve ourselves. Yeah, I mean, you definitely could. I mean, we could put her on 2,000 calories and say, run that for the next few weeks. Let's lose 12 to 15 pounds muscle. Yeah, let's lose 15 pounds, knowing that a big portion of that's going to be muscle. Also, just so she could be, you know, a half a second faster on the horse, that's possible. And some people would make that sacrifice because they care that much about the sport. But I love that you brought it back. Cause I was going to say something and then you started to allude to this by asking her about after she's done doing this. Like if this is not your end all be all, then you want to consider like, what does life look like after you're not barrel racing? And it's not as easy of a trade as people think. You know, I've trained wrestlers where, I mean, it's very strict weight classes. And I had trained a young athlete. He was a collegiate wrestler and he was in a particular weight class and he had to constantly starve himself to be there. And his, the idea was, well, I'm bigger than everybody else at that weight class. Cause I'm starving myself. I said, but you're also weaker and more tired. Why don't we try the next weight class? And yes, guys, it'll be bigger than you. It'll be easier for them to be, at least you'll be fed. It'll be more natural to your actual weight. And he crushed. He crushed, he felt so much better. So it's not as easy as you think, exactly. Look, thanks for listening to Mind Pump. If you like our information, head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out our guides. We have guides that can help you with almost any fitness goal. You can also find all of us on social media. So Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump. Justin, Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump, Adam. And you can find me only on Twitter at Mind Pump South.