 Thank you everyone for tuning in to Straight Talk for my show. I'm Bruce Wilson, Executive Director of Service Rooney, Incorporated, and art so wonderful. And before I get started, I want to talk about my co-host here, the Honorable Mayor Christine Lott. You know, I live in Winnieski, and that's my mayor. I love her. She's my friend as well. And, you know, she does a lot of work. She's definitely boots on the ground there. And I want to say to everybody, please come in and Winnieski, check out everything we have to offer. A lot of fun events. Oh, incredible food. And you go to the lake, the river walk. It's incredible. So come to Winnieski and see what we have to offer. Thank you. Before we get... So now, we talk about our wonderful guest here, Scott Phan, from when we get to the new name, BPR and BPS. Right? We'll first start. That's how I started. Thank you, Bruce. I'm really excited to be here. And you started with BPR and BPS in 2018. Yeah. And now we're calling ourselves Vermont Public. I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit. And I come up through a combination of community organizing. I was a community organizer in a place called Big Ugly Creek, West Virginia. It's actually a small, beautiful little place. And then I was a journalist. Worked for a newspaper for a long time in West Virginia. And they got into public media. And been really happy. My family and I both have been super happy to be here in Vermont. So yeah, thanks for having me on your show. We're gonna invite you. So we want to hear about all of those entities because I know that you do other things. You're a CEO and president, right? A Vermont public, yeah. And you're in some other program too, right? In some other city. Yeah, no. So Vermont Public is basically what is funny. It's public television and public radio coming together. In part because we're trying to make the case that the way media is changing. I don't know if you guys have young people in your lives. My daughter is spending not so much time with TV and radio, but lots of time on these other platforms. And so we're trying to say we're gonna be there too. Yeah, so that's why I'm excited to be here and talk about it. What is the impact of the merging of the radio and TV? Yeah. Does it change your program yet? So our goal is, Mayor, is to be able to continue to serve people on radio and TV in exactly the same way. So we're hoping that people are not seeing any disruption at all to their service. But by merging, we're able to have more resources to do things on YouTube and Instagram through podcasting. And so we're talking with groups like CCTV and Town-Mating TV, which you work with, community media folks. And trying to figure out there are ways that we could help boost youth involvement in media. It's good for us in terms of our future, but it's also good for the state. So that's the whole purpose. So I'm hoping you're not, except for the name change for the public. I'm hoping you're not really seeing or hearing much different on TV and radio. But behind the scenes, we're trying to use the resources now that we have to reach out to more people and do a better job. Not just young people, but also people who have been historically underrepresented in public media. And so that's the BIPOC community, it's rural people. It's a whole bunch of different folks. I saw there was a goal, a goal of the organization to have your programming better reflect more parts of the community. Have you seen any change on that front yet? I think we're just getting started. I mean, there are two ways we're trying to do that. One way is by hiring folks who are called engagement producers. Whose job it is, is to go out in the community and tell stories with them instead of for them. And like Myra Flynn, for example, is a recent hire. She's a well-known performer, but she's also a really talented journalist. And she's one of these engagement producers. So we're hoping that by having more people on staff that have more diverse experiences with the goal of telling stories with people. It's very similar to actually, and we're aligned with, what groups like community, CCTV are doing and town meeting TV. And so the other thing that's happening is we're talking a lot with those groups too. How can we help each other? Yeah, so I'm hoping that we're doing a better job. We're starting to count the racial diversity of our sources to see if we're matching the population at large. And what we're seeing is we're starting to, but there's a lot more work to be done. So that's awesome that you're working more on by-product people on PLC. And so you count it, you're doing the measurements and who you're reaching, right? So I know you reached like a million of people, right? Yeah, yeah, it's pretty incredible over the course of a year on TV and radio. Every month on radio, we're reaching about 200,000 people. And then there's another 100,000 on TV every month. But then when you aggregated it, of course, of course a year, a lot of people are, and not just in Vermont, but we have a large audience as well in Montreal, especially for TV. There are English speakers there that consume our programming. One of the things that's happening, though, in one of our problems, is that our audience continues to get older. So most of our audience is 40 and over, with one exception, which is PBS Kids, which is eight and under. So we have this big missing middle. Yeah, you do. So that's like the 14 to 25-year-olds, right? Yeah, yeah. So how are you going to work with the old school? That's my age group. I work with 14, 25-year-olds. I need to talk to you then. I mean, if you don't mind, with the young people you're working with, how are they consuming media? How are they producing media? Oh, man. What's it like? Well, first of all, I have new provides reports that age group around for the restaurant chain account. But what they do, they just do this regular Facebook, Instagram, and emails and stuff like that, and some other social media names. I don't know them. Like the younger high school kids, they know social media stuff that I had never heard of. But I think everything that Vermont, what's the name of it? Yeah, Vermont Public. Vermont Public is doing what's going to be doing as well, reaching this age group. Is this something that they were allowed to get involved with? Because you know what it does? It expands their horizon. And they get to reach more people. Youth like their age is that 14 to 25 age group. And they get to learn more, you know, find out what's good around that million people you serve. So, you know, I would love to be able to work with whoever, to try to get some of those individuals involved. Because we do work with the radio station at St. Michael's, with the WWPB, 90.1, you know, at UVM. And they have, it's very interesting, you know, because this is to 90.1 at UVM, all kinds of music. Like, man, I never heard so many types of music. And I'm like, all kinds of cool music, you know. But my point is that they all have incredible thinking about what they like and what they see in this world and how they want to show it, you know what I mean? And so, what you're doing, you know, for my public is exactly what these individuals need to raise up on, you know. And so, I can help you with that. I'm surprised that you don't have 14 to 25-year-olds working in those areas. Yeah, we need to do a better job. And, you know, what you're talking about, Bruce, and what I'm hearing is like young people, they want to be involved in making media. They're not passive consumers like I was when I was at age. Like, just turn on the TV and watch. They want to be doing it. And also it's really important that they're hearing stories from people like them. Right, no doubt about it. You know, it's like we do this thing called the peer-peer model, you know what I mean? Like each one teaches one, but they all are teaching each other, you know what I'm saying? Based on, like, we're sending one to a seminar or something. They come back, you know, presenting what they learned, you know. And each one might tell stories about what their ancestors, their parents, their grandmothers, what they learned through their cultures, you know what I mean too, you know. And how wonderful was that to hear some of somebody saying, talking to me from who's born and raised in Ireland or something, you know, or, and then, you know, and I can compare it to what I've learned from my ancestors when my parents taught me some people from Africa, you know what I'm saying? You know, it's very interesting. And things that you never, you know, knew, and, you know, you lie around in rain all the time, you know. I always loved the green meadows, you know what I mean? When I say on TV, I've never been there. But, so there's a lot of things you learn, you know, about it, you know. Some of my friends tell me about the, you know, the places, you know, the hangout places, you know, that has been there. And it just thinks that these conversations need to be learned. And so I think what happens is, I know this is for a fact, is when you do this type of things, that it creates harmony, a harmony in the world, a harmony in the community, a harmony in the church, everywhere you go. You know, people who are more or less, you know, like any child or whatever, you know. And it stops a lot of the high risk. Because that's what we do. We help them with their goals, dreams, aspirations, you know, while creating safe places to be at. And because we do that, we know for a fact that if somebody is hanging out in our gallery, guess what? They're not drinking, they're not drugging, they don't have no technique, they don't like stuff. They're not hanging out with us or some other wonderful other person. What are they going to be? They're going to be in the woods, the barn, having, drinking and drugging, having, you know, all kinds of high risk stuff. And so that's what we need to do to help the world get these youth, everybody involved, with their ideas and suggestions, learn from their cultures, learn from whatever they are, you know what I mean? Like in a poetry or open mic or rap or rock, you know, whatever. We need to do that. We do that. We try to do it as much as we can. But everybody needs to, you know, better than nobody. But everybody needs to do that. I know because of the measurement, our organization, we have over 50 awards, is that I see and I hear from the youth, you know what I mean? And I'm on this album. Basically, they run our stuff, you know what I mean? And so our program is in events. And so for me, I see and learn what, you know, how they interact with each other. And it's a wonderful thing. Well, it sounds similar, this strategy that you have of hiring, what did you call them? Engagement. Engagement producers. Yes, yes. You know, trying to actually get the population you want to reach. Are you having any success getting younger producers of content that way? Yeah. Actually, we have, so Myron is a good example, but also we have a young man named Myron, who's our first Vermont Public News Fellow. And so we had a problem in that. We were hiring journalists who, you know, they all had to have three years experience like public radio or public television before we'd even look at them. And that walls off people that have lots of great ability. I'm sitting in my head just like you said. Right. And so we're trying to change how we hire people. And one of the ways we did that is say, we're going to create a position that is for someone who's fresh out of school, who, you know, has the ability to learn how to do this. And Myron's been great, actually, and helped us to like, he tells stories that are funny and informative and finding stories that we wouldn't have found otherwise. Yeah. So we got to do more of that. I think it's like a path we're on. And once we realize like to reach our goal, by the way, our new goal is to basically engage with and really increase our engagement with people that are under the age of 45, while also not losing our existing audience. So we're trying to hold on to what we have, but also do a lot better with younger folks. To do that, we have to have more people on staff that understand that community and can relate and can help us tell that story. It's similar to challenges in local government in who we're reaching, right? It's traditionally been a certain subset. And if we continue to be that subset, we're not going to reach anyone broader. Yeah. Oh, I'm curious, like, you know, from both of your perspectives, what is the challenge that Vermont has in welcoming more diverse people on that, people on diverse, excuse me, more people of color, more people who come from different backgrounds. New Americans. New Americans. Like, my daughter, I'm white, obviously, and my daughter is white, and we want to live in a place, and we have lived in places before in our history, that have more people of color, more, you know, Winoski being a big exception to that in Vermont. You know, what can we be doing as Vermont public to make everybody feel welcome? We've, I think, mostly been focusing on, and obviously in Winoski, we still have a lot of work to do as well. But internally, trying to change the makeup of our staff, do more local recruiting, looking at processes, like you were mentioning, that create barriers to, you know, exist in talent. We are trying to be more connected with the local organizations and the school districts, showing up in classes there to actually talk to youth, and, you know, do that relationship building so we start to understand and trust each other. And then, I think the third thing that we've been looking at is the structures that we work with it. So the majority of our engagement is through, like, public meetings. It's an evening, come to this location, we're advertising in certain spaces, and so trying to be more flexible with when and where and how we make over and available. I wouldn't say that we have found like a successful model again, but I think trying many things is getting us closer to that point. Yeah, so you have like over 100 employees, right? And so, and you might not know where I've had, but on the diversity of your employees, you know what I mean, around Montreal, to where's your demographic? Yeah, yeah. Where's your staff, where are they? I actually do have some numbers. That 100 makes it easy because you can kind of see percentages and things. Out of our 100 staff, we have about 10 that identify as Bob Hawke. Which is not matching the Vermont stat even. So the Vermont statistic, I think, is more like 12 to 13% after the last census. So we're still behind there, but we've made progress. Two years ago, that number was much, much longer. So I think over time, we're catching up there. But the other piece, Bruce, that we're lacking is diversity and leadership. We have only one of our managers and no members of our leadership team are people of color, and that's not sufficient. And then other types of diversity, we could, we have one employee in Montreal, even though we have a big audience there, we could do a lot better on that. You know, we even could do a better job, and this is hard to talk about in the current environment, but I am political and ideological diversity and making sure that we have a staff that represents all Vermonters there. And then people with disabilities. I have a son that has severe autism, and why would I like to do a lot more to make sure that people with disabilities are part of our team too? It's a long way to go. I think the age group of 14 and 25 is one of the largest audience in this whole entire world. For not to have that any part of what you're doing, to me, it's surprising that you made it in these numbers and success as you have. I know for a fact, when I look at your shows, whatever, and I see interviews, it's a lot of people my age are a little younger than me. All the time. So that's all right, you know what I'm saying? No problem. That's what probably kept you to your levels. But I think if you, what you're going to do, you know, because I'm going to help you, bringing in 14 and 25-year-olds, then you will get a lot of, like you will get like, like, you know, you need to get like the street hard rappers and you need to get those people who might not have a PhD and individuals who just have inspired to do media work. And we know, if we don't know, we'll find them, you know what I'm saying? And here are the ideas. Do a survey, find out what their goals, dreams, aspirations are, working in media, working with based on your mission goals and objectives. Now you said you changed some things, you just figured that. So did you change your mission statement to your mission? Yeah, mission and vision. So our vision is a Vermont that is engaged, inspired to build our future together. And our mission is to, we want to broaden and diversify our audience through stories that bring people together. Now that's really important actually, we're talking about stories here a lot. Stories are powerful tools and they're not always powerful for the good. Stories can be powerful for the bad. It's all dependent on how they're used. And unfortunately, I mean, there are all sorts of benefits of social media, but as you all know, it's in general, it rewards a lot of bad things, anger, things that get like strong, negative emotions. And so what we want to try to figure out in public media, look, we were created 50 years ago because TV wasn't doing enough to serve the public. It was basically a lot of the same things you say about social media. Overall, it was shallow and it wasn't helping people develop themselves. It wasn't community based, it was national. And so public media stepped in and said, wait, there's a space for nonprofits to do this. And then community media, what we're doing right now, that's another response to the market failure of commercial television, commercial radio. Now we have a market failure in social media. Commercial social media is not making us healthier. It's not strengthening our democracy. It does the opposite, Bruce, of what you're doing every single day in your program. And I feel like it's our job collectively to put good stories into the world, to do the sorts of stories that bring understanding and connection and not hate and division. Yeah. And so why are you bringing in people, why are you bringing in more people, bike parking, PLC people? Why are you bringing in more people like who looks like me? Why are you doing it? Oh, because, well, practical reasons and also mission reasons. Like public media, again, going back 50 years, it was set up because commercial media wasn't serving certain people very well, including people of color, including low-income folks, including folks that lived like I did in the middle of nowhere in Iowa. And when I was growing up in Iowa, we had exactly two TV channels that we'd get on our antenna, that's how old I am, right? And one of them was public television. And thank God for that. I mean, I grew up on Sesame Street and that was my vision of the world is like I was been printed on that. And so that's still, there's still a need for that even in today's world. But sometimes public media has gotten away from that. And we, our audience tends to be older, as you said, and also tends to be people who have like college degrees or higher. That wasn't, it's a nice thing to serve that audience, but it's not what we were set up to do. And I'm glad you changed that. I'm glad you changed that. But I think for 50 years, and I think I get it, you know what I mean? I kind of get it, you know what I mean? Because being a person of one of those people of color, it's just that it wasn't inclusive, you know what I mean? Right? It didn't start off inclusive, because first of all, probably a person like me wasn't interested in it to help me make decisions, help me build your mission goals and objectives. And so I think that now today, like with the issues with Black Lives Matter and all the different issues with the police and people of color around the country, that a lot of people in the organization started to think like, we should include some people of color, BIPOC, you know what I mean? We should do that. I mean, so to me, I don't think the back rooms will ever go away, because I said get rid of the back rooms, don't bring me in the back room, would you? But I'm usually one of the ones that's in the back room, because it's where I work, hard work room, and I don't like it really, I like it, but that's why I sit on some of these boards, because I want to help make people like me get what they deserve. But is the back room ever going to go away? Are people of color ever going to be a part of, is it going to be the CEO or president? Can they step in as you retire, be your position? And you know, based on the things that they've done, how they make the programming or bring people who like me in there, because I'm a little concerned about that. Well, not just from my public, but... Hey, see you later. That's just a real place. It's a real place for my public. I just want to make sure that this is for real, you know what I mean? Like, you know, one of your staff, one of your senior staff, coming in and you guys make decisions without talking to somebody who looks like me, probably they think the issue, you know? And so that's very important, man, that we have to get rid of the back room. We don't need no down back room. What we need, I'm going to say it for my public, I'm going to say it to you. This is the front room, right? This show is part of that. I, you're exactly right. And your analysis of what's happened in the past is exactly right. I mean, I think that what we want to do is open up the process of talking about how we're going to serve the public so that we're not just making these decisions ourselves, but we're saying we would like to go in this direction. We, we have certain resources that we can use and then how do you think? So that's a question like, you know, I'd like to bring to you, not just today, but in the future. Sure. When we talk about like engaging with the young people you engage with and people like them, that's you shaping the programming. That's you helping us figure out what we're supposed to do next. And I don't, I don't, I don't like what happened to five people or something. I don't make no decisions when I ask them because I serve them. They don't serve me, you know, first of all. And so, and I always get great answers, you know, as same, you know, I always get great answers. I stand by, I'm a conviction, you know what I mean? Because like if you used to tell me you bought something new for a gender item or something, I'm standing by, I don't care what nobody else said, you know what I mean? That used to say this because I know for a fact that all the youth we work with, like that we work with like our youth and all the different ice cubes or whatever we're going to count them. And they are all the same. They might not, they might be different. They have different demographics, you know, might be some of them in high risk environments, economically challenged. But you know what? You as a youth, what's the color? What's pink? What's, what's, what's the meaning? Ta-da-da. You know what I mean? What's the, you know, they all know the same stuff. They just do in different, you know, places in the world. And so, that's why their voices have to be heard, you know what I mean? Especially if they live in different demographics and in economic status, it's different because we need to hear all these stories from our kids in Winooski to from our common hands. And so, whatever we need to hear, their stories, you know, about what the, and they learn from each other. So that's the big thing. Like, what, how can, they do some of the things that they're doing and they can do some things that they're doing, you know what I mean? And then, what happens? They grow old and actually, learn, live better, you know, live better, because learning is the best. Well, I feel compelled to share that at the Winooski High School. I've actually participated in interviews with students there. They have, they have some equipment and some programming for that. And I know there's a lot of interest in sort of media production and videography and things. So I think it's exciting that you are considering that voice and that there's opportunities to actually plug in, you know, the desires there. They want to learn these skills. Well, I hear you say I'm Bruce and I'm really inspired by your example of this Youth Advisory Board. You know, what we have in Vermont Public right now is we have a, we have a board of directors and then we have a community advisory board. And the community advisory board, I'm really happy to say, I think, it does represent all of Vermont pretty well. And it has people from all sorts of different backgrounds, beliefs, parts of the state, different races. And they advise our programming in general. But there's no one on that board that is, the age range of that board is 18 to like 80, but not under 18. So if we really want to do youth programming, maybe having a youth advisory board is the way to go. You want some real good answers about youth. I mean, you've got to get from them. You know what I mean? Like, like a money-grin psychology and I don't give answers for, you know, like for a doctor or an Indian chief answer. I know them all. If I need an Indian chief answer, I just go to a couple I know and get the answer. So that's, and that's the same thing. You kind of get the best answers. You stand by, you get convicted for it, because they're youth going to not going to tell you, they're going to tell you what it is. They're going to tell you what they do. You know, with the social media, they work on the, with all the things they, you know, they're doing with the art and music, you know, it's a basic, it's just elementary to them is to tell about their own life, their goals and their dreams and aspirations. And just like, so, but you got to get those answers from them right out their mouth. Well, so it sounds like there's two benefits, right? You get answers. In other words, you understand what they need. But also they're, they're developing, right? They're learning skills. They're learning how to speak and be heard and leadership. Right? There's a side benefit to that too. And then plus two, like I was telling on a Romero here is that, that these youth who, experience what, you know, what the Mariners office do and what you do and what we do, we help them. We help them get scholarships in college, job application, you sign your names, you know, CEO, president of, you know, Vermont public, you know what they do in the mayor sign her name or something. We just got some stuff, throw out another board and sit on the mayor sign up and we went on to the council and do some things about a youth program foundation we were working on. But I'm telling you, that's what we want to do. We want to inspire them and then make sure they get where they want to go. You know what I'm saying? And it's easy to do because most people just want to learn here from somebody. Bruce, what do you think about this person? You know, it's good. Okay, that's all I want to hear. They don't, they don't, you know, they don't want to have to go through all this stuff. You know what I mean? They don't have to go through all this and whatever. They just want to, if they hear from some honorable mayor and they hear from to say this is good, that's it. You know, that's it. So that's what I'm trying to say. So we put good youth and individuals into places where they want to go. And that's what we've got to do. Keep the low, keep things wonderful. Keep the low risk low. You know what I'm saying? We don't want nobody to go on a high risk. Anything. Just keep it all low, help them with their gold streams and aspirations. And there you have it. Wonderful work. We'll make it, we'll keep it working. You know why? Because those individuals who go through, to what they're going through and how we help them, they're going to tell their peers. Yeah. And they're going to tell their peers in theory, you know, that's going to just think it like them now. And guess what? They ain't going to be in the back rooms or doing stuff. They want to say, wow, they helped them with their gold streams. That's what, yeah, I want to get involved in that. Right? Don't they? Why not? You know, it costs you nothing. Why not? You know, I'll see you all, man. You know, you helping us do this? It's a big deal. It really is. You know, it's funny. I'm one of the first in my family to go to college and I remember everything about that system scared me. And there were several points in it where I felt like I wasn't going to make it. And I didn't understand. I was supposed to do certain things at certain times. And there are always people there to help figure things out and demystify these systems and open doors. And if you're working with young people, that's your job, right? That's what you do every day. Demystify these systems, help people figure out where there's opportunity for them, you know, knock down barriers that get in people's way. And I think that's the challenge in local government and in all of these areas where we're trying to create more equitable access, that system has been created, not everyone has been included in how it works. And we have to break that barrier and demystify it. Yeah, and part of it too, the other thing we're talking about is, does every job need a college degree? Of course not. Well, when did we build that barrier? But we have, you know, so having that conversation too. Yeah, yeah. So at this time, I'm going to say a couple of last things. But I was saying to the mayor that all these equity directions around the world, I know because of Black Lives Matter and police type of issues with people of color. And now, so, in everybody hiring equity direction, whatever it is, you know. And I'm saying, I don't know nobody who had, it was, I never saw anybody had a major in equity and diversity in the college, you know. No, I don't know nobody have a PhD in it. And so you really, the person, you can hire a person who, the best person probably needs to hire somebody who don't have no degree in college, but maybe have a bachelor's or something because of community college, they help build structure. But that's the main thing you get from college, you know what I mean. But I think the person, everybody should hire is a person who have life experience, you know. I can tell you, I'm going to say this, and I'm going to close it. I can say this to you that, you know, I can tell you about some racial incidents or some stereotypical things in my life happen. And you understand, you know, you know me, and so you understand how I feel, right? You could, I mean, you could feel it. But guess what, you don't feel it, if I tell another Black person like that, they feel it right from their heart, you know, they get it, you know. So let's, we've got to close from here, so you want to have more last questions? Oh, I did see that you have some teaching in your background and was just curious how you've applied that in the role. Oh, yeah, I was a sixth grade English and Social Studies teacher for a while. And oh, that's a good question. You know, a good teacher is a good storyteller. A good storyteller is a good teacher, right? And so I think that's the connection there. And actually it's funny. I was a teacher, I was a journalist, and I run a public media station where education and journalism are both really important. Yeah, there's definitely some cross-section there. Yeah, exactly. It's great to have a diverse background of experiences as well. Speaking to Bruce's point, when you bring someone into a role, but they have a lot of experience. Yeah, and I think it's really important, speaking to what you just said there. And, by the way, thank you for sharing that, right? Oh, no doubt about it. I mean, you're right. It's like you can empathize, but can you really understand? And that's why we need to all be a place where you can tell your story and try to cross that barrier between people that have that lived experience and people that don't. Because, you know, that is the antidote to the problems we're having today. Understanding people feeling comfortable telling what they're saying, their story, and other people being willing to listen to hear. And that's, we have a long way to go to make sure people are willing to hear. Thank you for sharing with us about Vermont Public's mission and what we can look forward to in the future. It's been great to be on the show. Thank you, Bruce, for having me. Thank you very much. And Mayor, thank you for your talking. Thank you, Bruce. Co-hosting. And so, thank you for tuning in to a Straight Talk from our show, and we'll see you next time.