 President Bahari's refusal to sign the amended Electoral Act is an ambush ahead of presidential primaries, says the House of Representatives, and a 10,000 electoral officers to handle a kitty governorship elections in a kitty state, says the REC. Well, this is Plus Politics. I'm Mary Anacon. The leadership of the House of Representatives has called on political parties to ignore the delay by President Mohammed of Bahari in assenting to the amended amendment made by the National Assembly on the Electoral Act of 2022, which gives recognition to statutory delegates. Now, lawmakers who describe the possible withdrawal of the assent to the amended bill by President Bahari as an ambush ahead of the presidential primaries have asked parties to go ahead and approve statutory delegates based on their respective constitutions. Now on May 13, the Senate and the House of Representatives have passed an amendment to the Act that recognizes the statutory delegates at primaries, congresses and conventions of political parties. The majority leader of the House, Alhassan Ado Dogua, alleged that some persons within the ruling or progressive Congress and the government were misleading President Bahari on the amendment. What's allowing us to discuss this is Rima Shawulu, he is a member of the House of Representatives for Tungkum Donga Usha Federal constituency in Platu State. Thank you so much for joining us, Honourable. Thank you. One more just a small correction is Tungkum Donga Usha and Young Two Federal Constituency of Tarabah State. Of Tarabah State, apologies. Thank you so much for joining us. Let's start with the urgency that seems to come with the President assenting to this particular amendment Why is there a sense of urgency? Is it really needed, even though the House of Representatives has given an order saying parties should go ahead and approve statutory delegates according to the apartheid constitution? I'm surprised. The House Leader will make such a pronouncement. The canon of our existence, democratic existence is that there is separation of power between the executive legislature and the judiciary. A law is only a law if it is assented to by the president. The National Assembly cannot order the parties to follow an act that has not a bill that has not been assented to by the president. It is only when the president has assented to a bill that it becomes an act and it becomes a law binding. The political parties and INEC are not bound by any bill that has not been assented to by the president. In the event that the president does not give his assent, the National Assembly has a duty and a responsibility to either accept the veto by the president and that veto can only be attempted to overriding the veto can only be attempted after 30 days. I don't think that the president has reached the threshold of 30 days, number one, and the National Assembly, even a joint resolution of the National Assembly, a resolution of both the Senate and the House cannot replace a validly, cannot replace an act. An act for anything to become an act must be assented to by the president. Now I think the problem that we have is simply that the National Assembly, in my opinion, did some kind of legislative overreach. In the first place, the National Assembly, it has been my considered opinion that the National Assembly should not be legislating for the political parties. The parties were made to be or are made to be self-government entities. I have made my point very clear before that the parties should be allowed to do whatever they want to do. Anyone that is not happy with the parties or any decision of the party should be allowed free to go and take another party or, if we in the National Assembly had done our work properly, go to contest as an independent candidate. Now the issues are very clear. There are some democratic gains that the late Danifahemi went to court, up to Supreme Court, and that were achieved. Honourable, you were trying to explain to us what political parties, the powers that political parties have in terms of picking these delegates and you also said that the National Assembly should not have a right to interfere in party politics that this should solely be the job of political parties. Now I remember that we had a conversation some earlier in the year when we were also talking about the issue of indirect or direct primaries and this is also a position that was taken by the National Assembly, something that you opposed. But then you also made a mention of the fact that political parties can do whatever they want and I wanted to ask, whatever they want or should it be done within the confines of the electoral act? Now we are bound by the electoral act. We cannot do anything on our own. We cannot go ahead and which is why it is not possible for National Assembly to order parties to walk contrary to the electoral act until the president signs the amendment. We cannot the parties, any party that adopts the amendment that have not been assented by the president is going outside the confines of the law, the confines of the constitution. And the point I was making really is that when you say political parties should do whatever they should do, I am simply saying the political parties should be bound by their rules. Political parties are supposed to have clearly spelt out rules and these rules are supposed to be obeyed. National Assembly now goes to write rules for parties on how parties should conduct their affairs. That is what I thought about the confusion that we have in the country today. And I think I have made the point very clearly in the past that in some parts of the world, in a place like the UK, for instance, parties do, these parties go to source for candidates by a contest election. And the parties that source for those people that will contest elections, I mean, should be allowed to source for those people. And the parties, anyone that is nominated by any political party is not automatically a representative of the people until that person has contested the general election that is conducted by Hanek. And that person stands in competition with other candidates. The point is that today you are writing, we are written laws. And in the bid to micromanage the political parties, we have now excluded us, members of the National Assembly, elected party officials, governors, president, and so we now want to change it quickly. What is the change that we are making brings out other problems. I think that the process of law making, a law, a legislation by our constitution, goes through several processes. And the reason why it goes through several processes of first reading, second reading where the general principles of the bills are debated, committee, public hearings, and all that is to avoid the situation that we've had now. Some of these sections that we have now were sections that they are legal, they are correct, they are constitutional. They followed our procedures, but they were made in the hurry. And there we are wanting to amend, wanting to force the president to amend. And the legislation is supposed to be broad in perspective. It's supposed to be such that it covers problems that will be seen in the future. But the legislation is targeted at trying to improve certain sections of the population or give its advantage to add some sections of the constitution. The army of the population. You arrived at the crisis that we have now. And I think the solution to this is for us to appeal to the president. Now the People's Democratic Party has conducted primary today is concluding the primaries for senatorial candidates. So it's gone more than 50%. So even if the president now comes and assigns to this, this bill and turns it into an act today, before it comes back to the national, the clock of the National Assembly for Gazettein and so forth, the time will have left for other, it's a lesson for the future that those need to be made carefully. Talking about the carefulness of making these laws. And I know that you obviously a member of the House of Representatives, although the PDP is the minority here. But I mean, I know that the certain people have said that the president is being misled by the ruling party, which is obviously the majority. What do you think it could be the reason why this law? Because you said we have to do we have to make these laws carefully. They had to have been some back and forth between members. But of course, it's a case of numbers. My sister is a very straightforward issue. The constitution gives the president party this to consider. This whatever we said to him, you have to give the president those 30 days before you complain that he's not in a he's he you have to give him the 30 days. We are bound by our constitution. We cannot go outside our constitution. But but I'm asking because there are people who are saying that the president that this amendment was unnecessary and that this is misleading the president and that this misleading idea is from the ruling party. And I'm saying if you and other members of the PDP, I'm saying because I wasn't there. If you kicked against this and it's still scaled through, what do you think the agenda would be? There were several protests by the public, by political parties, by members of the National Assembly, even some in the APC against certain provisions in the constitution. Now, for instance, the provision in the Constitution, Section 84, the first Section 84, which makes rules for how parties should conduct their primaries. Now, in that section also makes permission that for people for consensus candidates to be accepted by the political parties, by the INEC, candidates who have to sign an undertaking that they have withdrawn and that they are supporting some somebody. The ruling party simply circumvented it and made people who are buying forms to sign an undertaking that and the undertaking that they had withdrawn from the race even before the contest the election. As a matter of fact, if the APC leadership wants to be, even though that section may still be contested in the courts of law, it can simply decide on who is going to contest the election without going for primaries because Section 84 that speaks about, if you are going to do consensus, all the candidates who have to sign letters or withdraw, blah, blah, blah. The parties, every person that wants to contest the election under the platform of the APC has already signed a letter that they have withdrawn and that letter was freely signed because each person had to take the letter to the commissioner of oaths to endorse. It's like an oath. You are swearing on oath that you have voluntarily resigned before you contest the election. So the point I'm making is that this is a political process. Many people are going to be victims of the high-handedness of political parties. But I think the solution is to expand the political space so that if you are not comfortable in one, you can go and test your popularity in another place. But we do have several political parties in the country already. It's what has brought us to where we are now. And what I'm saying, what I'm starting to say is that we gained a lot of, we made a lot of gains when the democracy came. First, Annek was charging fees. Ghanifarimi and others went to court and the court had not charging of fees. Annek no longer charges fees for people to contest the election. We have room for political parties that can be formed. All we need to do is to further expand the space as it happens in other climes, so that... But it's not the job of Annek. Annek has already registered so many political parties and still we have many other political parties. I do not necessarily know if that is Annek's job to expand the space. Could it also be that the politicians like you have decided that it's just two political parties that are going to be wrestling in between? It's expanded by the political system, by the constitution, the laws and the courts of law up to Supreme Court, the various rulings that have been made and expanded the political space. Annek cannot, as of today, refuse to register any group that seeks to register as a political party. But there are conditions for you to continue to be in existence. You cannot just register a political party and go and do anything. No, that can be... There are conditions for how political parties should exist. So those things are embedded in our constitution. I think what we need to do going forward is that in the next assembly, every effort should be made to expunge provisions in the electoral act that seek to control and micromanage the political parties. Even a political party decides that it's going to bring members of one family to contest elections. So be it. The people will reject them. That is democracy. If you seek to impose candidates because you have money or because you are in government, you will make the electorate. And as the political system, the part of Annek is to ensure that we have a good voting system where people vote who actually come. If you impose a candidate because you are in government, because you have money, they are going to meet people during the election. And people will reject. Many people have lost, including sitting governors. I can count to you several sitting governors that did not win senatorial elections. And I assure you there will be many more sitting governors that seek to go to the Senate that will not go to the Senate because the public will reject them. And that is how it is. If you impose a candidate, many people have been imposed. People are crying out in the ongoing PDP primaries about certain things that have happened. We are waiting. We have one year. We have eight months of the election. If you are dissatisfied, you adopt another candidate in another party and watch for that candidate to win, to defeat the people that you think have made things bad for you and your people. That is how it is. But we cannot, we should not, write rules for parties because that does not develop democracy. I hear you. This is the power of our system. I hear you and I appreciate where you're coming from. But I mean, I also wanted not to ask this question, but I will ask. It's great that you're saying that this is what you expect that the next National Assembly will do. But then who's to say that the majority is still not going to be selfish because, permit me to use the word selfish, because of what they are all interested in. It's a game of interest, like you said. It's a political thing. But where does the interest of the average voter come in? You talk about governors endorsing candidates and endorsing other people to run for Senate, et cetera, et cetera. This has been the modus operandi for a long time. And if people are benefiting from it more and more, and half the time these people emerge as the party flag bearers and find their way into government house, whether it be federal or state, who's going to sit there and make that change if they're also benefiting from it? Yeah, you're right when you speak about that, because if you look at Nigeria, especially from 1999 to date, you need to ask yourself what are the gains that we have made? Is my considered opinion that the last years have been... We have not done much. Africa, Nigeria has been a disappointment to Africa. Nigeria has been a disappointment to its people. Nigeria is more divided now than it has ever been. And the rules of the system, the freedom and the rights that the people have, a lot of which have been taken away by non-state actors that the state should have driven out of the country, out of our system. The rights and the welfare of the people have been compromised by people who hold political offices. You can look at it properly and see that most states, most states, if some people have been in government for eight years, you cannot see what they have done. Some come to the television to tell lies that they have done projects, projects that don't exist. You have a situation where people take other people for granted. They want power because they want to impose one group on the other. They have created ethnic animosities. They have created problems for people that Nigeria is now more divided than it was even during the Civil War. So we are right. The people come in because of their interests. Now, the solution to it is a political system. It's a system where votes will really count. So far, we've had a problem where people write election results. You can see, for instance, the situation we had in the last election, 2019. Borno State, for instance, where we have Boko Haram, had more people vote in it than in the river states that were peaceful and Iboni state combined. So the fact that votes don't count gives room for people to want to go and turn themselves into warlords, into virtual terrorists for the people in the states, areas where they have domain. And they do that, and they succeed in doing that because elections actually have not been taking place. And people are praying and hopeful that INEC, this time around, will actually use the divas in all states of the Federation and in every place where elections are going to take place. It doesn't matter who wins. If the person that wins was elected by the people, it means that the people will be able to drive him out if he does not perform. But if you really look at the delegate system or a selection that is taking place which my party, the PDPS, adopted, there are very, very, very few. Maybe 1% or less, or less, electoral votes of the country were doing the Congresses. People actually lined up to vote for who should be their delegate. That did not take place. Some stakeholders, some governors and some warlords in some states where there are no governors sat down and wrote down the names of people that are delegates. In some places, people put the names of their children, put the names of their wives, put the names of their aunties, their mothers as delegates, people who cannot read or write. And so you say, okay, you are going to hold elections. You are going to hold Congress. People are going to cure. But those people have not been checked. The membership cuts of those people were just manufactured just before the election. Who should take that blame? You see, every time I have conversations with INEC on voter education, actually, they say that, look, the job of educating the public, even though INEC has a job, but then the political parties also have a job in educating its people. I'm talking about the issue of delegates here. Because what we hear on a daily basis and what we see now is that the delegates issue is a money-making thing. It's a group of people smiling to the bank for one man's interest or going to the highest bidder. And as you rightly said, people who may not necessarily be party members. But then when asked about party registers and who the people are within these parties, there's radio silence. So again, can we really be pointing fingers if those fingers are not pointing back at us? And when I say us, I'm talking about you as a politician who is in a political party. Why are parties not engaging their members? That is the point I'm making. That is the point I'm making that we in the political system have been a disappointment and a failure to the country. And if people rise up against us, they will be completely justified because we don't play according to the rules. We don't have rules that are followed. And we do things. For instance, let me go back to talk about the issue of political education. Why would somebody who wants to benefit from the illiteracy of the people, of the lack of capacity of the people, give political education to the people? Political parties are not interested in people who ask questions. They are not interested in people who are independent. They are not interested in people who do what is right. That is why I say we in the National Assembly should open up the political space so that people that seek to contest the election and I deny for whatsoever reason can contest the election as independent candidates. Number two, I also said I think if I think it goes ahead today and implements the beavers, the system that they used in the FCT and Anambra State in the last election, it will bring out it will not indicate to people that votes count and people will be able to vote. There will be no more fake votes to manufacture by bribing any official, any police or security agencies to go and write results, chair results sheets or pre-new results sheets as we've had a balance of complaints over the years. And then the final point I want to make here the people themselves, political education is not just for political parties. The political education is for civil society groups, community-based organizations, faith-based organizations. It's for the people who are suffering the brunt of failure, of leadership, of corruption that we talk about, of decay in the system that has made Nigeria that we look at every indices, every indices. If you check every indicator in the country today, you'll discover that Nigeria is either on the top of the worst or at the bottom of the best. And if you look at Nigerians, they go out of Nigeria, they perform excellently well. Why do they perform excellently well outside Nigeria? Because we have a system that does not allow things to move the way it should move. And people operating that system, they are benefiting from it. The mistake that they are making is that we are sleepwalking into disaster that will consume everybody and everything. And the reason why today, we have large swathes of Nigerian territory under the control of non-state actors. Well, Honourable Rima Shawulu is a member of the House of Representatives for Tungkub Dunga Ussar Federal constituency in Tarabah State. We appreciate your thought. Thank you very much for speaking with us. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break. And when we come back, how prepared is INAG for the upcoming Akiti State election? We'll be talking with the resident Electoral Commissioner after the break.