 Hi, my name is Sandy Baird and I'm here for What's Happening, a discussion of the current events of the day. I'm also joined today by my colleague, Eric Agnero, who has given me a fresh perspective on the news always and about the politics of the world because he shares a perspective from, I believe, from Africa, which has a totally different perspective on the news than basically the Europeans. Or the Americans, and that's for a lot of reasons. I believe it's probably because of the colonial status that many of the African countries have suffered in the past. So I just wanted to talk a little bit with you and you want to talk with me about the current state of what? The war. Right. And the world, correct. But also I believe about what's happening in Ukraine still. So what's going on? Yeah, in Ukraine we were surprised that the U.S. will send cluster bombs to Ukraine. Why? Why is it so surprising? Because cluster bombs have been denounced across the planet because targets, yes, targets military, but mostly are dangerous for the civilians. Because, you know, they don't detonate all of them. They're like mines, aren't they? Yeah, they transform themselves into mines. Once the main ammunition has exploded, it spreads like smaller bombs that, you know, I mean, in the most, you know, reliable case, you have like maybe 70% of these bombs that detonate. And then the rest stay there as mines, potential mines for, you know, the civilians. And the whole international community, you know, looks at cluster bombs as barbaric and, you know... There's even a treaty against the use of cluster bombs. Yes. Which you said recently of the United States. The United States or Russia. It's like, I understand, because these two superpowers, probably China also, you know, regard them as mines. And then in that case, you know, the U.S. is still, you know, uses or at least, you know, keeps the right to use mines in conflict. So people around the world were upholed. Like, how can, you know, a great nation like the U.S., great democracy, great republic like the U.S., you know, go back to these, you know... Not go back. I mean, the United States is also, at this moment in history, an empire. Yes, it was a great republic that was created, as we talked about earlier in the day, by the American Revolution, when we overthrew monarchy and princes and princesses, like yourself, a prince, and established a republic where everybody was equal under the law. But that was a long time ago. And at that time, the creation of a republic, I think, was virtually anti-imperial, anti-empire. We overthrew the greatest empire on earth at the time, was England. And in a way, therefore, we renounced having our own empire. But that all has changed. I believe it changed with the Spanish-American War in 1898, when the United States sought empire, essentially in Asia and in Latin America. But the American empire is coming to its end. Well, wait a minute. First, it had an empire, which I don't think that most Americans would admit. But we had an empire, and that empire was deepened, I think, after World War II, when the Cold War was declared, essentially, against Russia. Right? Right? Yeah. Okay. So, and what did that lead to? That led to NATO in the first place. So if we're talking about the war currently in Ukraine, we're also talking about the war of NATO. NATO, yeah, against, you know, yeah. Which was established in 1947-48. NATO is the alliance. Who is it allied about? NATO is a military alliance allied against Russia, always. Yeah. It began as an alliance against the Soviet Union. It didn't end when the Soviet Union collapsed, and it has expanded its... Yeah, and then even beyond Russia, it went to Gaddafi's country, Libya. Yeah, so NATO is kind of going everywhere, trying to... And then it's the case now, trying to counter the influence of new powers, China and Russia. And Russia has always been a power, but in this... China has, too, for a long time, but... So, to me, sending these ammunitions are either a sign that, you know, the US... I mean, NATO and Ukraine is losing ground against Russia. It's losing the war, because it's like kind of a desperate... I don't know if it's a desperate move, but, you know... I mean, to go to that extent means maybe that they're losing the war. Or, you know, it's really Russia out at any cost. Well, both at the same time, correct? Okay, so it seems to me that this war has been portrayed in our country and probably in Europe, but as a war to save Ukraine. But there's another whole theory that's a counter narrative, correct? It seems to me. And you pointed it out to me by pointing out to me a long time ago that the nations of the world, the black and brown nations, Latin America, Africa and Asia, see this war as a proxy war of the United States, primarily against Russia. Yeah. And is that correct in your view? Yeah, that's how they see it. And so much so that, you know, when there was this uprise from the Wagner group, people thought that in Africa, you know, the efforts by some African nations to get their independence from France and the Western powers through an alliance with Russia and China will collapse as well because, you know, they thought that Russia was going to plunge into chaos. Right. But it looks like Vladimir Putin won this one. He won this one and then people are still asking, were they really a coup or it was just a plot? Okay, let's look at that a little bit. Okay, so anyway, so that's what we see the war as and that is shared by many peoples of the world, but not the white European nations nor the United States. This war in many people's views in the other parts of the world, Latin America, Asia and Africa, is a war between the United States and Russia. It's a war against Russia, which is being fought in Ukraine, fought in Ukraine at the great expense of the Ukrainian people, but that it is a war essentially that NATO at least half caused themselves by trying to expand NATO into Russia. Okay, but we've heard our president say or I have that the war is not about Ukraine anymore. It's about to topple Putin to get rid of Putin and to have regime change in Russia. Our president has said that. All right, so but you're talking about something else. What we're now talking about is Wagner or Wagner group. What is it? And let's explain this as well as we can. It's so hard to explain. Sometimes you ask yourself if Wagner is not like a segment of the Russian army. Yeah, but that's not yet. Not yet. A group of mercenaries that are managed by Vladimir Putin's good friend until what was supposed to... What's his name? I can't pronounce it. Priogsen or something? Yes. The head of the Wagner group. The head. And as far as I could tell, the Wagner group is a group of mercenaries that operate on behalf of Russia all over the world. Like many mercenary groups have done on behalf of the U.S. Right. Like Blackhawks. Yeah, like around the world. So it's a common practice. A mercenary. By paid soldiers. By paid soldiers. But here we're not sure if these guys were rebelling against Putin or were... Or in reality. In reality were getting... How to deal with them. How to deal with them to get closer to Kiev. Right. And while you know the... But in any case, using the proxy like Ukraine. And then today the idea of having cluster bombs over there would be even dangerous for the civilians. Horrifying. Yes. So it means that, you know, whole country, you know, millions of people are being sacrificed for war. We're not sure that, you know, NATO will win this war. It doesn't look like they're winning. So... Well, but to the mainstream media, they are proposing that they're winning in this Ukraine. In other words, this counter offensive is going somewhere. However, if you look beneath the common narrative, you see that it hasn't done much. No. At all. That it hasn't taken back the territory. Okay. But I wanted to ask you something. So let's go back to the Wagner group. Okay. That group is a bunch of militaries, mercenaries supported by Russia, I guess. Yeah. They operate in Africa too. Correct? And they operate in competition with, for instance, the French Army? Yes. In your country of Ivory Coast? No, in the Ivory Coast, no, because the Ivory Coast is still a stronghold of, you know, the French post-colonial empire, empire over there. But Mali got rid of the French soldiers. They called French soldiers like a few years ago to help them deal with terrorists. Terrorists? Okay. And then finally they realized that the French were not doing much. Just as bad. Probably. And probably were, you know, were in collusion with the terrorists themselves. Yeah. So they decided to drift away from France. And then call upon Russia. And Russia probably knowing that they will be involved in a massive operation in Ukraine probably sent the Wagner group. But the Wagner group is also present in Central Africa Republic. Right. Yeah. So gradually these mercenaries or these soldiers from Russia, paid anyway, you know, spreading across the continent of Africa. And the United States is opposed to them? Of course. The United States is opposed to that. France also is opposed to that. All European nations as well. But you know, what could you do? I mean, these countries are sovereign. So now they're using pressure, like in the case of South Africa, for example, which is a different thing, South Africa is a member of the BRICS. Right. Okay. BRICS though is. The Brazil, Russia, China. India. And South Africa. South Africa. So, South Africa is expected to host a summit to which Vladimir Putin was supposed to take part. But, you know, the Americans and the European are putting pressure on South Africa not to or to arrest him. Right. Or to arrest him because he's in the restaurant and out for that guy. Right? Okay. So, it's a strong competition. And since, you know, the l'Ener de la guerre, the nerve of the war is military might, these African countries want to see Russia to help them. So, it's tough right now. And then I don't know if they will deport these proxy war in Africa against Russia. Would there be any confrontation on the African continent? Against Russia? Against Russia. Against Russia. Yeah, I doubt it. But it is occurring, of course, in Ukraine. Okay. So, if you go back to the Wagner group, what happened recently was this group of mercenaries seemed to turn on Putin in Russia, correct? And they marched against Moscow. But what happened? First of all, they did not succeed in toppling Putin. No. Okay. And Putin simply moved them to Belarus. But today, yeah, he moved them to Belarus. And that's near Kiev. Yeah. But even today, you know, they knew, I mean, that, you know, Vladimir Putin met with Primovin. So what is the theory? Yes, they had a meeting today. To me, the theory was, all this was like a strategy, a war of Putin. And he has been from the beginning. When I saw that guy, you know, the Wagner, you know, group of boss, you know, criticizing the Kremlin and so and so, I knew that it wasn't possible for someone from the same house in the middle of a war to do that. I'm pretty sure the intention was to have the enemy drop the guard, thinking that Russia will be in turmoil and, you know, maybe precipitate the counteroffensive. But to me, it was clearly a maneuver. On the part of Putin? Putin. Okay. He's no dumbbell, right? Oh, these guys. I don't know if there is a mastermind in chess. Oh, true. I forgot about that, the Russians with their chess. That's what it appeared to me as well. There is some evidence to support that theory that it was a strategy of Putin to just to move his troops closer to Kiev via Belarus. Right. But we'll see, I guess, but the proof or at least some evidence exists that those two guys met today. Yeah, they met today and then there's no, we don't, we don't hear about no, you know, confrontation. Confrontation. He's not in jail. He's not in jail, so it looks like they succeeded in fooling the West. Well, is that true or not? What do you think? Okay, so the other thing I wanted to discuss with you is there's great talk today about NATO, which is meeting, correct? And there's all these deals being made with Sweden. Sweden's going to break its neutrality of centuries and enter NATO. What are they doing? They must be out of their mind. Do you suppose that the Swedes want that, the Swedish people? I need to look into that, but I'm not sure they want that. I'm pretty sure that's like it's NATO has put pressure on Sweden. But also maybe, you know, the fact that Vladimir Putin was a little, you know. He's been really rough with Sweden. Yeah. Right, no. No, they have been. Maybe it's in the best interest to find a place where to be. But it seems to me nations like Sweden and right now Turkey as well are counting on NATO to beat Russia. That's not so clear. Is it that the war is going to end favorably for the U.S. and NATO? What? Turkey. For Turkey, I know that is just a way of, you know, yeah, and also, yeah, yeah, bargaining. Yeah. I'm pretty sure the Turks, the Turks, they know that they don't count necessarily on a victory of NATO, but, you know, because they have good relationship with Russia as well. They do. So they pose themselves as, you know, the last resort if there's a war, a declared war between NATO. So for Sweden, I don't know exactly what they're doing, but probably very much, you know, pressure from America. It's astounding that they're giving up their neutrality, which they've held on to for even throughout the Second World War, they were neutral. Did you know that? Yeah, I know that. And all of a sudden they're giving it up, Finland too, right? To join NATO. To join NATO. And NATO began as an alliance against Russia. Russia had already been defeated, no, Russia won World War II, but they were flattened anyway, right? Well, we'll see, but it's also for NATO, it's a way of survival, so it's a way of maintaining. Why? Because of this big influence of China. To me, Russia is not so much the problem. Not told people like you and me, but China might be. China, but you know, you can't take on China if you still have Russia around. So the weaker Russia is, maybe the easier it will be for the Western world to take on China. It can't take on China, can we? But at least, you know, bargain more because China will be like soon a gargantua. I think it probably is, though, right, except the United States is messing in China too, always, right? I don't know why people think that there can be a war. At all? At all, because, you know, all whatever we produce here is done in China. I mean, whatever we consume, here is produced in China. China has like so much... Including antibiotics? Yes, so how can you, how can you even go, we've seen the state, I mean, the Secretary of State try to go to China. They didn't even invite him, did they? We've seen also, we've seen also the Secretary of Commerce trying to massage the Chinese so that, you know, they can preserve. But it's difficult to preserve good, I mean, relationship, you know, commercial relationship while you're in a war. But the thing about China that's so strange to me is that the United States weaponizes Taiwan, right? Gives all these weapons to... Taiwan is part of China. At the same time that we give them all these weapons, the weapons are directed against China. It's almost as if the Chinese are funding Texas, right? And yet, Biden says repeatedly, we have a one China policy. Okay, yeah, and you obviously know what that means, right? I mean, after World War II, there were two Chinas, right, Taiwan and Beijing. Beijing, yeah. And the United States refused to recognize Mao Tung and the Communist government only recognized Taiwan, but that changed at some point. And we have supposedly decent relations with the Republic of China, except that we give weapons to one of its provinces. How can that be? How can any, people have lost their mind? Do they really think that we would be, we would tolerate such supplying of one of our states? How about Alaska? China can give all these stuff to Alaska? I mean, big superpowers need to keep some leverages. What's the leverage? If you have Taiwan, you can... But we don't have Taiwan. But at least, you know, we don't leave it, I mean, we are, like the U.S. is like a pain in Taiwan, I mean, for China, by supporting Taiwan, at least, you know, you weaken a little bit your adversary. It's international relationship, madame. Yeah, but you, yes, but it has serious consequences, and you just said something that I think most Americans would find astounding that the American empire is losing. The American empire is in a crisis. I don't think most Americans think that, but I do. Yeah, I do, too. And then it's normal. I like this country. I don't want it to be an imperial power, but I like the republic. I like it if we could stay a republic and get rid of this empire. But as that empire implodes, what do you suppose is happening? There's absolute chaos in this country. I mean, I don't know how connected it is except that all these monies go from this country to places like Ukraine, to Zelensky, in terms of weapons. Maybe the country will be well off the day, you know, America, maybe the country will be better. I mean, the day America would not have to spend money around the planet but take care of, you know, the folks. Okay, I think Tucker Carlson, as you and I both, we admitted that mortal sin, right? He said his politics around the war is what I think Americans should think about, and that is, ask yourself, is this war in the interest of the United States? Is it? That's a good question. Is it in the United States? I mean, we all know we have bleeding hearts for the Ukrainian people. I, for instance, have the same kind of sympathy with the Russian people, however. Yeah. Okay, so I'm a person who's against war, period, however, rather than looking at this in a sympathetic, emotional fashion. Shouldn't we be asking ourselves, is this in the interest of our country? And what would you say? I mean, you're not yet an American citizen, but what is your thought? No, I think it's... But you like it? Yeah. I mean, it's probably in the best interest of the US in terms of, you know, containing China and Russia. Why is that in the interest of the United States? It's not in the interest of me or you. It's not in the interest of the American people. Tell me who's interested in it. Then we need to ask the American people what they really think. And what do you think they would do? You think if there was a referendum, should we be sending all these weapons to a guy named Zelensky? We should be sending him cluster bombs and tanks and weapons and all of our surplus weapons and all of our money? I'm not sure the American people would like that. How would they vote? Do you suppose? They would vote against. But it depends. Also, it's highly political. I mean, you have the... The Democrats have made like this war. Bullset themselves over this war. What? But there's no referendum here. Of course not. There wasn't around Vietnam. You were here during Vietnam, but I was. And I would say the same thing. I was a high school teacher at that time at a Catholic high school. And I remember asking my students, you want to go? They were being drafted out of my classroom. They didn't want to go. Nobody did. Then to be against the war in Ukraine would be like... No, no. I'm asking. Do you suppose that if it was put on the ballot, people would say, oh, sure. Let's send him all of our money? No, I don't think so. How would it go? It would go... And that's why we don't have a referendum. That's why there's no referendum. Right? Yeah. Why so? Because the superpowers, the people who govern us in Washington, want this war. And I have no idea. But they have wanted war with Russia since 1917, when the Bolsheviks took over Russia, right? The Bolsheviks, me and the communists. Yeah, the communists, yeah. But prior to that, why do you think that there's always been this thought that it's a good thing to go to war with Russia? Or Africa? Why? Why these huge big land masses? What do they offer to the United States resources? Probably, you know, the military complex is making money. I'm sure of that. But why do our political leaders support that? What is it about... I mean, let's face it, Russia is not only a European country. It's also... Asia. And it's very, if you think about it, undeveloped. What does America want with it? Same as it does in all wars. Resources. Yeah. Russia is, like, it's, like, untapped. What? Yeah. Yeah, you know, regions. So, resources. And is that true in Africa? Oh, yeah, big time, you know, in Africa and also, you know, prestige, you know. I mean, they don't get much, but, you know, it's just like a matter of international prestige or, you know, just, you know, don't get, you know, or influence, I should say. It's good to have a group of nations in Africa that could vote for you like a herd. Or for you where? Like the United Nations, or, you know, be... Remember, you know, they were counting on the African countries to vote in favor of, you know, a resolution condemning Russia. They didn't. So it's always good to have herds of countries that you can control that could, you know, vote for you. I want to know one country in the developing world that even supports the sanctions. Can you take a one? The good luckies of... Who are they? Oh, probably, you know, Ivory Coast. Yeah, the Ivory Coast, Senegal maybe, because these countries are, you know, these countries are districts of France. Yeah, so, yeah, all the Francophone countries. And how about the Anglophones? Oh, the Anglophones are not for this war. How come? Because, you know, they don't have like... Like Kenya? Like Kenya might have some, you know, links to Great Britain and the Western, the Anglo-Saxon world, but it's still not, like, under so much influence as, you know, the French... I mean, the Ivorians and Senegalese could be under France. So and then in the Anglophone countries, you have a more of a spirit of your resistance than in the French colonies where, you know, they've been assimilated totally. Yeah? Yeah, the British came, they left the locals, you know, deal with their own problems, but the French were under the skin of, you know, they were everywhere. So these countries cannot do anything if Mama or Papa France is not there. Wow. Except that in general, when you were last in the Ivory Coast to one of the times when we first got to know each other, you pointed out that you saw Putin signs everywhere. Oh yeah, the people. The people on the street, but, you know, the government, of course, and then it comes to here. The people, the American people, I know that, you know, they don't like what is going on in Ukraine. They don't like how the Ukrainians are. I mean, Samalda? People don't even know. Definitely. If you go, if you dig deeper, you ask them, they won't be for a war or, you know, a permanent state of war that depletes, you know, the resources, kill people. You know, it's like, when you see, when you see the news, oh, America is providing cluster bombs. It's like you are agreeing to have civilians, you know, massacred kids, you know. Right. And we haven't even talked about our support of a country like Israel. Israel. You know, so just for the sake of getting rid of Putin? Well, that's what that, that's what they're after. We'll see. We'll see. But he's no fool. And as you point out, he's a master at chess. Oh yeah. Okay. So that's enough, I guess, for this month. Yeah. But we'll be back next month. Right? Thank you. Thank you.