 We had a situation in 2004 where Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killing thousands of interface in Iraqis. We're trying to get him and he's holed up somewhere vicinity Fallujah and we basically have Fallujah besieged and it's a very difficult time and we follow a truck that comes outside the city and we know it's full of weapons to take to to build car bombs inside Baghdad and so we stop the truck we detain the driver and we start to interrogate him and then there's about a 13 year old boy with him we don't detain 13 year old boys but we had him there and so while the professional interrogators are talking to the to the driver they start talking to the 13 year old boy they gave him a coke and they said anything interesting happening he said yeah we had a big guy visit the other day and eventually they came out our operators came out pulled out a book with pictures and he pointed out Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and he described this meeting there and so we were convinced that the driver knew where Zarkawi was in real time and this was a time when the violence was huge and this person was you know Zarkawi was causing huge problems so they're interrogating the driver and you know no foolishness or anything like that we didn't do that the interrogator left the room and two of the operators used a taser and hit the driver several times and they were brave guys who'd been at war at that point for three straight years they were unbelievably focused on stopping the killing by getting Zarkawi and yet they used a taser and and hit this detainee so we fired them we punished them and these were good guys brave guys who were trying to do what they thought was right but they did something that was fundamentally wrong and so you can't step back and say well you know they had a good end in mind they were trying to save lives because ethics is a slippery slope and once you start to justify backing away from your ethics you start this slide down the slope and it's really hard to get back up again it's a great theoretical conversation but when you are literally going into houses where there are torture chambers in the basement and you see what al Qaeda is doing to innocent Iraqis and other suddenly you've got to remind the force and yourself every day as you start you know as there's the danger of slipping into this and you slip into this back hole because it is ugly warfare