 Hey everybody, this is Sam one of the producers of conversations with Tyler today We're releasing two bonus episodes to go along with episode 193 featuring Steven Jennings These two episodes show fascinating elements of the daily life the culture and the politics of Nairobi and Kenya as a whole In this episode part one You'll hear from Harriet Marathi a young woman working in Tatu City a 5,000-acre mixed-use development just north of Nairobi After this episode make sure to check out part two to hear from the perspective of an elder Gatai Gatenji who also works in Tatu City for a contrasting perspective of the rapidly developing country of Kenya Now on to the show Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University Bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems learn more at Mercatus.org for a full transcript of every conversation enhanced with helpful links visit conversationswithtyler.com Hello everyone and welcome back to conversations with Tyler I am sitting here right outside of Nairobi, Kenya in Tatu City, and I will be speaking with Harriet Marathi She's a 22 year old hostess and waitress She works at a restaurant roast by Carnivore located in Tatu City She's worked there for a year and a half, and she has strong interests in the hospitality sector She studied supply chain management at the Kiambu Institute of Science and Technology in Kiambu County She loves reading books watching movies and also traveling She comes from Uranyaga County her village is called Karumandi. It's near Mount Kenya I am told the area has spectacular views especially in the morning It can be cold, but it's ideal for cash crops such as coffee and tea She is a kikuyu speaking the Bantu language, and that is one of 42 tribes in Kenya Harriet, welcome. Thank you so much What for you makes Nairobi such an interesting city? Why is it the place you chose to live? And Nairobi just has so much to offer in terms of opportunities career-wise Also, it's a very nice place to be in Nairobi And the part of Nairobi you live in why did you choose that part of the city? At least I chose because one it was close to the school where I was and Now it's close to the place where I work. So it's convenient for me to move around And languages you speak Bantu, right? That was your family language? Yes, it is English obviously, and you speak Kiswahili Sure any other languages Not for now. No, what else would you like to know? Maybe a bit of Italian Italian. Yes. Have you ever been to Italy? No, but I do have a friend who just moved in there like last year If you dream of going to Italy, what do you think you will see or do? I Will say it's the views for me and I also know it has a variety of job opportunities around that place Also, the pay can be quite good more than it is here Do you eat Italian food in Nairobi ever? Not really. It's very good. See if you can get some. I like pasta very much We do have pasta though And the artworks in Italy, they're very beautiful very interesting to see sure You say you you like to read books. What are some of your favorite books or kinds of books? I Will say fantasy history Adventure Yeah, what would be something you would read in fantasy? Let's see Dean Kuhns will be my writer to go all the way Yeah, his books actually he covers almost every range that I actually mentioned Yes, and for history. What do you like to read about about Kenya or about Italy other countries? History is quite interesting Because actually to specialize in Kenya we have different tribes and they all have different histories Which can be actually fascinating something that you didn't grow up with or did experience on your way growing up How do you think about what makes key you tribe different or special? I will say it's special because Kikuyu in general is a Bantu language, but it's divided in different mode of languages Because we can actually speak Kikuyu, but different versions of it maybe from the intonations To the way you communicate yet a different way to different words to mean the same thing But say the culture or the personalities are they different for Kikuyu? Not really. Not really saying there's other people in Kenya. Yes. What are you most proud about when it comes to Nairobi? I'm proud about The growth I have seen Nairobi grow since I lean off How old were you when you left your village? I Would say I was 10 so that was 12 years ago. That's a long time. Yeah, and what made you decide to leave? I won the reason why I left my place was I was offered a sponsorship in a school around Kittangela Yeah, so I left for school and Given that you have to choose high schools around your area. I chose around Nairobi And that is how I found my way in Nairobi and that's because you're ambitious and smart Yeah, and did your parents come with you where you came here at age 10 alone? No, I my parents were left back in Kirinaga, but I used to live with my aunts and uncle and they took care of you Yes, they did And how many brothers and sisters do you have? I only have one brother way, too And he's still back in the village or he came here or no, he's still back in the village And what does he do? I still in school. He's 13 years old 13. So younger brother. Yes When you see families in Nairobi a lot, they only have two children You're part of a family of two children. Do you think that's the future of Kenya? Yeah because the economy is quite hard as it is and Having more children is the one that is leading to all these three children a lot of people in Not good businesses like theft and stuff And if you think of your future you think you want two children or something different or maybe no children I'm okay with two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I understand What do you watch on YouTube? I? Do watch podcasts. Yeah podcasts story time. Which podcasts? This guy's Kenya podcast or American know these huge guys in America like Joe Rogan and Tim Ferriss So yeah Like those ones, but I can't recall the names But what do you find interesting about it? Like what do you listen for or what topics? They evolving technology that is coming along you could say the AI you can see the People who are privileged to own like they have money. They help a lot of people They just create a random way of reaching out to people who actually need their help So you're interested in tech. What social media do you use? Social media. We do have a tick tock. Yes, we do have Instagram. We do have our YouTube What's up as well, but which do you like? What's your favorite tick tock all the way because it's more fun? Yeah, do you make tick-tock videos? I do I actually do and How can you tell us how to get to them? Sure. What's your site address? It's Hazel Hazel. Yeah, Hazel Jones Hazel Jones. Yes on tick-tock and what are your videos about? Mostly, it's about how I spend my days and my work at roasts Yeah, about how I go about my days and you do these in English not Bantu or both Both depends sometimes it's dancing Yeah, it makes it interesting when you have a little bit of everything. So you'll dance and then you'll talk. Yes And your friends watch the videos many strangers watch they do they actually do When you listen to music, what do you listen to? For me in music, it's about the message conveyed in the music. I'm more of an old soul the Westlife kind of vibe Yeah, so you listen to rhythm and blues Yes, I do Beyonce of course. He's your favorite or my all-time your all-time favorite. Yes The Lemonade album by her is one of my favorites. Oh, that is an amazing one and there's a new one I forget the title, but I think that's quite good It's a 1970 sound for a lot of it a lot taken from disco and earlier musics Okay, I'll be sure to check that out And in Kenyan music, what do you listen to? I Used to listen to a bit of bongo, you know bongo, of course Yes, we do that. We also do that right now Mmm Ganga tone a bit. It's the clubbing vibe Do you listen to Nigerian music? Yeah, they are Afro bits. That's very popular now also in America really absolutely a lot of big Nigerian stars now in the US On YouTube most of all, that is interesting. Yeah. Yeah, and you go out to clubs at night Sometimes I do yes, and that's to hear music or to meet people or how do you think about it? Just for fun Mostly it's more about having fun Just letting loose a bit from the normal schedule and work and everything Also, it's a nice way to hang out with friends Like y'all can catch up and talk about what has been going on because we all on different parts right now Could you tell us a little about the restaurant where you work? Sure, the restaurant is roast by carnivore Right now. I'm the Waitest roc hostess, but hostess is my main thing. I just help out a bit in service interacting with people Because it's a hostess in overall I manage and make sure that all the guests visiting the restaurant They are served quite right. They have everything they need Yeah, and just checking up on them every once in a while So you have to oversee the other staff and make sure they're working well Yeah, what's the main mistake? Sometimes they make Will didn't call it a mistake, but when we are a bit overwhelmed You have like five six tables you're handling and they all want your attention So you can't be there all at once so somebody has to step in to help out and that's you. Yeah What kind of food do they serve? Mostly it's about meats. We are all five different types of meats Do you serve game like ostrich or just like beef chicken goat? Right now we're doing the beef chicken goat, but I know main restaurant in carnivore They offer all that the world even the croc dials His goat your favorite meat No, I'll go with beef beef. Yeah goat is more like traditional meat Right. Yeah for a ritual ceremony Older people prefer goat Yeah, I think they do Because depending on the turn up I see at work on a daily basis many people prefer to go for the goats that age Do you like Indian food? I Hate the spicy parts too spicy. Yeah, maybe you don't like it so much Yeah You like Oogali, of course I do that's the main like your staple food for breakfast or I Wouldn't say that I will say I'm more into rice But I do love Oogali because where I'm from rice is like readily available Because we're just around the Muayah region and that is where you get the best rice the Pichori rice That's a little unusual for Kenya, right? There's more wheat here than rice overall True, but the region where I come from is more rice. Yeah, great Have you ever had like Jollifrice from Nigeria or Ghana? No, that's a good dish It's hard to make but I make it very well in Nigeria. Okay. Yeah And the job you have why did you take that job? Okay, I took the job because one I'm passionate about the hospitality industry I love that the way you go to a place that is not your own and you meet different people And you get to get a treatment that Will make you remember the place and want to go back there over and over again Also in restaurants, that is where you find people mostly want to unwind About their days. So the people can be quite talkative and it's amazing You get to interact with different people from different places How ambitious are you? I want a scale of 110. I will say an eight point five So you want to own your own restaurant someday? Of course, that would be a dream come true And what kind of restaurant would it be? I want to go for A high-end restaurants Yeah And it would be Kenyan food. Yes or something else Food from your village a lot of rice or what's your dream? I will have a mix much of everything more like giving the people what they want Because from where I'm at I can be able to see what it is that people love what they like I can visualize on that You think you're a good people person like very friendly Cooperative. Yeah, I can say that about myself a good boss Yes Are you good at getting mad at them and firing them if you need to fire them? Oh, not the firing part that one. I leave it to the big bosses But if it's your restaurant, you are the big boss Yeah, I would say I love giving people chances before I am done completely done Why do you think the cost of living has become so much harder in Nairobi in the last few years? The government What do they do wrong? Everything I just have a million questions I would like to ask them because The management controls everything the government governs everything so They are the ones who are calling the shots and right now what they're doing They're pressing on people so much So you don't think they're running the country that well? Yeah And do you think it's a question of voting for some other party or you think of deep structural changes are needed? Boss a little bit of both we could use both because right now we need Complete change around the government We need to switch things up a bit so we can run smoothly like we used to a while back If people try to start a small business Do you think it's very hard? They need to get a lot of permits spend a lot of money get licenses Or is it easy? So if you went to start your restaurant, how hard would that be? It would be a bit hard. I will say I actually try to start selling clothes a while back sometime last year but one And it was a bit hectic One reaching out to people second before finding a spot and the permits as you said So you find the kanjo people as they call them. They are quite distracting for the people who are Trying to start up their businesses And your clothing sales was it from a physical store or online? A physical I used to do physical and also what's up is to help me a lot by then Reach out to my friends reach out to people from school You talk a lot on whatsapp Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah, so you're very extroverted Uh, yeah, I can be extroverted and introvert because I'd rather be indoors all day than go out And how fun Why would you rather be indoors all day? What's your thought there? I enjoy my company and um your own company Yeah, and the movies it's the storyline for me when I start a movie and I love the storyline I just want to go with it till the very end What kind of movies do you like? A little bit of everything It's the storyline for me if it's drama if it's horror if it's a thriller if it's fantasy But is it like bollywood movie nollywood movie canyon movie us movie Hollywood nollywood us all of those yes, and you have like a favorite movie of some kind Right now what I've been following up on is power Power political power or you mean just people who are strong It's the storyline for me because the power started when I was quite a bit young And I have seen the people who are acting grow till date and they're still doing it So I've seen them growing that industry and the storyline is Quite captivating you mean electrical power You know just political power. Yeah So you like movies about political power Yes Do you think power corrupts people? Oh, it sure does Because when you really want the power you have to go through extreme stuff And the people who come out of that process they care too much about power maybe Yeah You have mobile smartphone, right? Yes, I do. How much time do you spend on it? Given that I work for like 10 hours in a day. I would say I spend like four five hours maximum And you think that's the right amount too little too much Ah, it's too little sometimes because when I'm tired from work sometimes I don't even look at my phone I just want to get to bed and sleep But it makes you happy when you do it It does And what kind of phone do you have? I have a techno spark 80 And that's the android system or what? Yes, it is and where is it made? China Yeah Yeah You see a big chinese influence in Nairobi Yeah, I can say that How do you think that's going? For me, I don't think I have much to say about it I'm just happy everybody is trying to find their way because When they come and they make things a bit cheaper for us that is where that is exactly what we need And they help create jobs, right? Yes by investing. Have you ever been to America? No, I haven't What's your main impression of it from what you see? You can tell the truth. I won't be offended I think it's a nice place but I will say the Blending in or do I say fitting in Before you actually do familiarize yourself with everything that goes on around that could be quite a challenge Do you think we're crazy? Sometimes when you all go out on the black people Yeah Do you think we don't respect our parents enough? No, I wouldn't say that because it's all about the upbringing Yeah, and it happens in every place different countries Yeah, and the race problems in America. What do you think they come from? Technology have some technology Because your technology is more advanced It is way more advanced than it is in other places And you think that increases racism in some ways Not really But the platforms they The fact that nobody knows who's talking to who It makes people have the courage to speak out what they want and not everything that they do speak out is good And then they become worse maybe over time because they're saying too much true Including You know messaging services or online. Yeah Do you think the world will fix that problem or what do you expect? The world can fix it, but it all starts with an individual because once you want to change it And you influence the people you're hanging out with or the people you have around It goes like that and maybe with time we might see some changes Are you an optimist about Kenya? Yes, I am Do you think you'll live here your whole life or you'll try to go to italy or somewhere else? I would remain traveling, but Kenya is the place I would like to be Like for living Kenya is the place to be, but I would like to visit other places. You like the climate here Everything about Kenya is amazing the people the food. I especially the food But not the Indian food not the Indian food And in the food Have you seen that change in your lifetime? For the food. Yes So you've been in Nairobi 12 years. How is it changing? It is changing quite a lot because With time The people are forgetting about the indigenous foods that we used to get at home right now around Nairobi given that it's more Residential place you don't find a lot of places where people want to grow this stuff And the thought of getting them from the villages and transporting them to where you are can be quite hectic because Some may spoil on the way Their budget may be just not pocket friendly So yeah, people are more reliable on the junk food parts around Nairobi than it is around the village areas Do people here think about the british much? This was once a british colony Is that an important issue or you've all forgotten? History taught us a lot about what happened in the past But with time we have seen the changes and by now people have adjusted to the day-to-day living Do you think being a british colony was good for kanya or bad for kanya? Not so good It isn't in between because we all had something to learn Like the christianity mode came along that time And yeah And yeah At least to go to learn something from them, but they treated people here very badly. Yes Yes, they did Do you go to church? I do christian Yes Which branch? I'm a catholic What makes catholic appealing to you? The unity there's no much diversity as it is in the protestants because Whatever is being taught in the american church is whatever is being taught in the Village church we have the same bibles the same readings scriptures for every sunday It's programmed that so long as in the catholic you're getting the same information Do you think fewer kenyans are going to church than before? Yes, I will say that And that concerns you or you think it's okay? It does concern me because I'm also affected because I work six days in a week and sunday is one of the busiest days You can never get enough day on sunday So personally for me, I will say it has affected kenyans a lot work wise Yeah, if you marry someone you want your husband to be religious catholic Or it doesn't matter so much It doesn't matter so much Just to fees a good person. Yeah There's this cult in the south of kenya paul mckenzie. I read about this in the newspapers How do you understand that what what's your sense of what happened there? Uh, that's a tricky and interesting topic at the same time But I really don't get what teaching it is that these people are getting to the extent that they can go and undergo the Fasting session and their leader is not undergoing the same thing You know, that is something that is controversial so It is weird I'm not in support of it. Yeah, we've had things like that happen in america, of course What do you think of women's rights in kenya? Are they strong enough? Yes, they are How could women be treated better? Nothing, I will say that is not being done right now So you think it's really pretty good. Yeah, it is because in terms of leadership We're given equal rights in terms of speaking our minds out. It's allowed I think it's quite okay. We just need to walk your way up to the top And then for women you think have the same chances as men Yes, they do Yes Are you worried about any of kenya's neighbors? So there's samalia, ethiopia a lot of fighting Does this concern you or it feels very distant? I wouldn't say it's distant because every kenyan is a human And I believe so long as no one is trying to attack the other one and we're all trying to live in peace Everything is going to work out quite fine Because it's all about the peace and the humanity and the friendship between the countries That's a very catholic view, right? Yeah, it is And kenya takes in a lot of refugees. How do you think that is going? I'm not sure how that is going to be going in the next few weeks or months because with the gmu cutouts I don't know how that is going to work out How's it working out with uganda as a neighbor? I don't know how they handle it. I haven't read much about it But if they're doing okay, I think that's good But do you worry that kenya is better run than most or all of its neighbors and that you will receive a lot of problems through your borders? No You just think kenya will be safe. It's strong enough No But I wouldn't say the management in kenya is quite as good as our neighbors around Also, we're all working our way here to try to improve lives around What would you do to improve the schools here? the schools Curriculum What would you change? I'll take it back to the 844 system And what is that system? Right now what they're doing is called the cbc They have a variety of things. They're teaching in schools Some that were not even teachable before they're even teaching pe in schools nowadays And that's good. You think or no It is okay. But right now what people need is To go on with what they used to do You mean stricter more math more reading and writing Yeah Just to make sure everyone can read and write very well Yes, I will say that How good do you think your school was? Okay, I have been in different schools in primary and secondary. I was in one but Schools were how do I say it? It all depends on the schools because we have the public sector and the private sectors And the two can never much cannot much or even come close Which is better It is not better, but it is okay But of the the private the public which of those two kinds of school gives you the better education The private of course private. Yeah How is it you ended up curious from your family from a teacher you were born that way? For me, I just wanted to see more than just what was around me And coming to Nairobi was the best thing If you were to travel somewhere else but in Africa, where would you want to go the most? In Africa we'll go with Uganda Yes, why Uganda? It's just the thing about Uganda and there's Way of living there. It's not as expensive Yeah, the people seem very friendly when I meet them other places. Uh-huh. Yes, you have that impression Yeah, people can be friendly, but it all depends on the approach And if you think of visiting somewhere in Asia, where do you think of going? In Asia That's a funny one That's a tricky one. I'll have to research on that When COVID came here, how bad was that for you? You were you couldn't go outside You couldn't meet with friends or how was it or maybe not so different. How would you describe it? It was quite hard And it actually delayed my school year. I had to extend time in school Comparing to what I would have And it was tough. It was tough times Do you think the country is over that? Not really not really. Yeah, so people are still depressed or upset or frustrated Yeah, people are now trying to find their way back because COVID really affected a bunch of people Many people became jobless Relating with one another became an issue Because of the social distancing Yeah, and you stayed here or you went back to your your home place Actually did both I went back to my place, but I also came back to Nairobi. Yeah In your village, do you see large animals very often? Yes, so you see lions elephants giraffes We do have elephants. We do have hyenas Not all the animals are there, but we do have some of them And you've seen them so many times you're not excited or you're still excited when you see them It's exciting because you know, you know, he used to sing them on a daily basis And it's always fascinating to see animals Are any of them dangerous for you? Yes, they are You know, our place is near Mount Kenya, like I said and sometimes they run away from the forests and they're coming to pupils Shambles to eat so it can be a bit scary And which one is the most scary? The elephants all the way Because they're so big and strong and they might just step on you and they are fast These things can chase you so fast. Yeah. Are the hippos scary? Yes, they are They are scary, but you don't get to see so many of those around Kirinaga. There's just a lot more elephants. Yeah How do you think your village is doing in terms of its economy or people getting richer happier? Or do you think it's stuck? It's stuck I have been there like a couple of times and I can't say I have seen as many changes as I would expect to see in that span of years Why do you think it's stuck? The curious people leave Yes, that is one And the people are a bit closed-minded about Opening up their minds to things They make it more superstitious than it should be So they don't have so much Christianity. They have older beliefs Yes, I will say that like what would be something they might believe in Let me say like in case you're having disputes Or let's see one when you see an owl they say that somebody's gonna die or something Right. Yeah, and they believe it. Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it actually happens. We had lean off And how much of your village is Christian? Everybody So they blend Christian and earlier beliefs together. Yeah How are women's rights in your village? Do you think? The people have not opened up their mind as they should like I said So for the women around that place, it's more of like a home-based thing Not many of them go out to look for jobs or even Want to do much about studies They just know they should stick around at home to help their husbands and all And raise children So not so much opportunity. Yeah But Nairobi is much better. You think? Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah And you think you'll always live in or near Nairobi Always could be a tough time, but but mostly. Yeah And what do you see you've taught to city you work there, right? Yes And you're optimistic Yes, I am very much so you see a lot of progress jobs coming people visiting. Yeah Like see I got a chance to meet you. Yes Maybe your restaurant will be in tattoo city sometime. Yeah, maybe hopefully Will you encourage your brother to move here? Yes, I will And you think he might? Yeah, he's very much interested Did you or he ever think of moving to Mombasa or some smaller city or you just think it has to be Nairobi because it's the best the biggest You know, it's all about giving a place a chance because Coming to cambo for me. I mostly came because of school around the cambo institutes And me moving to tattoo city was closer to school and still closer to where I work What is Campbell Institute? I it's a long cambo road It's a college And they what is it they teach? Mostly it's I will say more of the physical kind of stuff like They have business courses like how to build things Yes, we also have the hospitality in the the hospitality there. They do teach hospitality Yeah, so it's and you studied hospitality No, I haven't you want to or you think you know enough already I will remind you because it is something that I'm passionate about But what I did in school was the procurement the supply chain management What did you learn from that? There's a lot and there's procurement in almost everything be it hospitals be it companies be it the hotels be it schools Procurement is everywhere and it's fascinating how people do that Do you think you need a degree In hospitality to advance further or you think you can advance just with experience Now school is important the school beat is important because the papers will also help a great deal But it's all about it all narrows down to what you learn on the ground because Mostly what is in the books is not what normally happens in the places of work. It's very different Do you think you'll go back to school or it's too much a waste of time? I will go back to school but first I want to learn more learn more on the job. Yeah What kinds of things do you want to learn? You know interacting with people sure takes a lot of courage and humility Because not everybody is quite friendly Some people just come like I said they want to unwind their days and sometimes they're not that good Because they can be harsher times So that part world is something that I would really like to Impound on The humility part because it's it's a bit tricky. I will say that What questions might you have for me? How do you like it in Kenya so far? Well, this is only my second day So far I like it very much the green Vistas are very beautiful. This part of Kenya is quite peaceful I've had very good food It's been good to see Steven again But most of it I haven't seen So I'm going on safari in a bit. My wife is coming tomorrow And she will join me here I want to come back sometime and see the coast see the north So this time I will only see around here and then safari Okay And for the people are very friendly here and it's it feels easy to me Okay, that is great. And for food, what is one thing that you would like to try? Maybe the meat I once visited Tanzania And I very much liked the ugali Now, I don't know if it's the same here But I go to these meals and westerners. They feed me everything but ugali So I hope I can get some more ugali I'm sure you can pass by a roast and you you'll be sure to get some. Okay But unlike you, I like Indian food. I like very spicy. We have the spicy part too. Yeah, so I will do that On safari, I'm not sure what they serve me, but I think I haven't no choice Yeah, but sure since you're in Tato city, you might pass by roasts. We'll give you the ugali. Okay, great Okay, and if you think about America, what is it you wonder about America? About America is The way of living their education How they know so much at a very young age They're also quite friendly Americans they're pretty direct fairly open I think Yeah Final question. What is the next thing that you want to learn? What is the next thing I want to learn? You know right now the way the country is evolving I believe it's all about gaining a skill. You need to have a skill because employment The deductions are getting worse and you'll rather be self-employed than it is being an employee so For the skills, I would like to learn more about technology. I don't want to be left behind I want to learn more. Do you use chat gpt by the way? Oh, yes, I do And what do you do with it? I have another few more questions that Um, I learned about chat gpt through a youtube channel And also I have colleagues who are so much impressed by it And I just like the way it makes work easier for everybody But it also poses as a threat because once you're getting the ai to do all that stuff for you You might not need the employees as you do But you talk with it does it write poems for you? Do you ask it questions? Yeah, all of those when I have burning questions when I want to know something Because when you're in the night shift, I will say I'm not much of a newspaper person or news So Chat gpt is my way to go just more fun. Yeah chat gpt and tiktok Harriet marathi. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you too for having me. It's a pleasure Thanks for listening to conversations with Tyler You can subscribe to the show on apple podcasts spotify or your favorite podcast app If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review This helps other listeners find the show on twitter. I'm at tyler cowan and the show is at cowan convos Until next time, please keep listening and learning