 the speaker, it's a quite illustrious historian of music instruments, or what you describe yourself as that, it's a music historian, yes, with an emphasis on the instruments themselves, and then the focus is Italian music. So how do you get from Italy to China through various roots, if you've studied Chinese history before, but in this case it was through music, the introduction of music to the court, here we have a key figure for features in the work of also prominently, namely Teorico Pedrini, who our speaker has studied in a number of ways, both in the origins of the musical tradition itself, and then also the, you could say the court political context that arose out of it. So here we have a very interesting example of an interface between political history and cultural history, so and of course, religion, so this answers prominently. So we have a very rich topic itself, it also is very familiar with Chinese setting as well, regular visits, regular teaching regularly in China, and I would like to invite all of you to ask very direct questions afterwards, don't be shy, and you don't be afraid. So thank you very much, this is the session itself is recorded and we'll try to make it available on these, so as China Institute's YouTube channel, and for the discussion part, we'll switch to the recording after, you can speak as freely as you like. At the end I would like to, and the word to our speaker, Professor Paul Song, let it go. Right, following on from that, I'll just tell you how I got to be at being, I'm running conference at the University of Exeter, where I was for a number of years, if you know the name, the Corvallian Museum, which I've written for a conference, at the Imperial Court of China in the early 18th century, by Paul Ampereus, my flight, I've heard of this, and she started in China in the 16th century, back in the 17th century, I actually got my degree, she asked me if I would mind looking in about a bit or the room, it has been a long 10 years working in China, and if there was anything left, so one day I went on to the last rest of the mission down there, 400 pages of this letter, really the most famous of 300 pages, 400 pages, so sitting there, as I went through them, and I'll never forget the last one, his brother, the last step I'm going to write, I've not received a letter from you for five years now, I can barely see, I can see you in paradise, and by the time I got through them, I realised that the fact that he took western music to the imperial court in China, is very interesting, there's nothing like this in court, that's his contribution on the Chinese mics, and I quickly realised that if you mentioned China, by the time I worked in an Italian traditional artist, no one gave me a penny, as soon as I started writing about China, I got too little of the ocean to walk his house down, so that's the trick of it, to put it in Chinese language, anyway, let's get on with it. I first came across the other eco-veggy in his capacity as a musician, and I should say a few to my biographer, he involved Andrew O'Reilly. O'Reilly's music had found its way from Europe to the new world, so I was given to an unaware that I also performed at the imperial court of China in the early 18th century, Petrini was undoubtedly responsible for this transmission, if he made no claims to be any more an intelligent musician. In a letter to his mother on 4th of July 1730, he was quite dismissed from his employment. I've already written numerous times that the emperor has given me seven pupils to teach music, having heard at least in 90th that kind of progress, so much so that at the end of my days, I shall see myself as my astrophysicist Petrini. Providence, it seems, has been pre-needed with this one. Petrini's emperor's interest in European music had already been nurtured by the Portuguese general Thomas Pereira, but untimely then in 1708, he registered the emperor's interest in film. What in theory of the arrival of a union of Bach's admissionaries in Macau, invading Paris as to their competence? Petrini was summoned to Beijing as a musician, along with his companions. Matteo, as an artist, and Guillaume Fabrié-Fontiart as a Bach musician, he just introduced you to. There he is. He had several different versions, but the most likely thing is that he's a mandarin of the First Order, be deterred by the French thing, that's probably right. That's probably right. When it was painted, we don't know. I do know it, probably where it is, but I'm not allowed to say what it's saying on this. Beethoven's collection, now housed in the National Library of China, contains a remarkable set of 12 sonatas violin and bass of the three. It's a thinly described anorama of their treaty. The early manuscript of Western music from this period, known to survive in China, and she commissioned him to write a treatise on Western music, to be added, which forms a fit volume of the movement needed to accompany the music, a freedom of playing of European music. All this is often considerable interest for music colleges, but pales into insignificance, besides his chronicling of the latter stages, the Chinese rights controversy that consumed Catholic Europe in the 1780s centuries. My research has uncovered almost 2,000 pages of his correspondence, mainly for China to wrote. He passed a whole new light on the events of these critical years, principally a polemic concerning the government and the compatibility of Christianity with the Chinese rights to profusals and the ancestors. This became a bitter power struggle between the Jesuits and the Papers. The so-called rule of Mateo Ricci, by which the rights were defined as civil rather than religious, was fundamental to the Jesuit modus operandi in China, one which they sought to defend at all costs. This end, they drew up a manifesto of their own standpoint on the rights, which they then presented to the country emperor on the 30th of November, 17th century. Of course, having to move far to not know whether or not their stupid thoughts are justified, we respectfully request that the emperor favors us with his instructions and corrections. I've given you the list of all the references, just a little few to see where the manuscripts are. There are really a huge amount of manuscripts made into your rule of the moment. There are a lot in Paris that he would spend several years in Paris. There are quite a lot in Mateo Ricci, as you can find out, and his colleagues in Mateo Ricci, who I've worked with, made a lot of them. But mainly, there are a lot of these huge numbers, thousands and thousands of pages. This document was sent to Germany in the past. When in future years, it comes to be cited as the old right imperial declaration on the rights. It is a well to remember that these are not the emperor's words, but those of the Peking Jesuits, which he was really asked to endorse. This response makes no mention of the rights, which express his sentiments, which would totally have been shared by the Pope and some. Revere heaven, serve order and parents, to be respectful towards teachers and elders. This is the code of all people of the empire. So this is correct. There is no part that requires commendation. That's a newly ordained piece of the Convocation of the Mission. Petrini left Rome in 1720 to meet up with the first Peking nation to China, and the child's mind on it or not. The primary purpose of this location was to serve people authority over the mission and demands mission to the jurisdiction of the bishops and the beggars of apostolate. The authority of whom was disputed by the Portuguese. The objective never was to enforce the condemnation of the Chinese rights, nor could it have been, since no decision had been made at the time of the location's departure. Verney went to Tornaud, heard from the Bishop of Peking, Bernardino de la Piazza, that the Portuguese Jesuits, Thomas Pereira, had pretensions to propose himself to Kangxi a superior over all the missionaries. But he took the fatal decision of requesting importance with the emperor. Only then did the location take on the perspective in which it is widely held today, of an omission to the imperial court rather than to the missionaries. Such and subsequent meetings with the emperor resorting into problems banished to Macau with the grace of Charles Macrae, visible for not a well-known, the accounts handed down by the hardly objective Jesuit commentators. Then he also commissioned two Jesuit barters, Antonio de Barras and Antoine de Waubolier as his ambassadors to the Holy See. Later he recruited two further Jesuits, Giuseppe Rabana, Jose and Romundo, who had a accent. For Tuesday, since Barras and Waubolier were both drowned off the coast of Portugal in January 1708. Finally, on the 7th of December 1709, he authorized the issuing of the resident permit of Giao. I don't know about you, but my mother-in-law is certainly not very good. And I was expecting to find not only Giao, not by many, I've found about three of them, that's all, I think it will be lost. But on the three that I've seen, they don't mention Matteo Ricci at all. That's the whole point of it, I suppose, to enforce the rule of Matteo Ricci. I don't think they were ever intended to do that. It was only at this point in the Sardinia that Padrini made his entrance. For no fault of his own, he had missed the boat the rest of the location to China. He was actually waiting in Samara for his father. Spain didn't know where to go. It wasn't the best time to take a trip to China on account of the war going on, the Anglo-Dutch war. So, you know, it's not many boats going to be China, but it was only about one year. So, it was bad that he missed it, and hadn't been told where he was supposed to meet it, but this boat at all. The place of departure was the Spanish territory of the Canaries, rather than Lisbon as required by protocol, which kept secret so as to avoid an open challenge with the king of Portugal, Paterado. In a letter from the Canaries dated 28th April, 1703, the polon expressed his dissatisfaction that Padrini was not the amongst common people. I wrote to him in Spain to encourage him to take one of the two ships, but without telling him that he had to meet me in the Canaries, so as not to break the silence Monsignor Alonso of Paris had imposed on me. And you've agreed me to every step to obtain his implication with the gentlemen of the India Company, but they made excuses such as the smallness of the boat and the large number of passengers they had already agreed to carry. He thus remained in Paris. When God, perhaps embraced, set out on his mission, he will be able to apply the words of the gospel. First, he will be lost. Had he managed to meet at this rendezvous, he would undoubtedly have so been in the many a state of the rest of the nation, as Padrini was called he were. But what has not judged me harshly enough and in effect through his love I have suffered nothing at all. But for this reason I have been kept so long in trouble, as he wants me to see this tragedy go far, making me stand at the door without letting me enter. This divine will be done. He arrived in Beijing on 3rd of March, 2011, by which time the papal constitution extolled in PA 704, but pronounced the rights as superstitious and therefore incompatible with his teaching. This house was not an enviable one. On behalf of the propaganda of E.J., he was to uphold the papal ruling against the staunch opposition to the E.J. while living in the house of the French fathers. Despite the E.J. statements of a contrary from then until the present day, he had no independent view of the rights. As a true and faithful Catholic, the matter was a closed book to him. He laid out his position in no uncertain terms, and led up on 25th October, 1726 to his repatriated colleague Antelo Rima in reputation of accusations of chancellors. Until now, through the grace of God, I have remained in the same mission, and indissolubly attached to my holy mother, the Roman Catholic Church, and all the doctrines and opinions approved by her. I hate and detest everything she condemns or removes, but in particular chancellors in all its forms. And I give liberty and power to whoever sees this letter to endorse in my name as many formulae, as the Holy See wishes, is true, faithful, and since here Catholic Christians to endorse. The obedience, veneration, love, and respect of which I am ready to spill my very lifeblood for the thousand lives if I had them, and the consequence of which I hate and appore every other kind of heresy or schism whatsoever, and in particular that which the Jesuits have done in this mission to China, and the resistance that they have had and still have in receiving the Constitution, Epsilon D.A., and their accursed involvement with the Chinese superstitions of which they still defend. Thus I hate and appore Jensenism and Confucianism, and as many types of heresy and schism as are found in this world, and attaching myself strongly to the Holy See, my most beloved and esteemed mother, and my natural prince, according to his holy teachings, I commit my spirit with God, the Creator. I don't think you'd argue with him. It was his boundless duty to inform Rome the extraordinary lengths to which the Peking Jesuit went in resisting the ruling, the duty that she fulfilled the utmost of his abilities. From the start, Petrini enjoyed its closest relationship with Kaisi. No one was better deceived by the Emperor than I, who was the lowest of all. So much so that from then on, he began to praise me so continually for many years, along with many gifts, continually calling me into his presence, and constantly showing me many kindnesses, even distinguishing me from the other Europeans. With so much familiarity, Petrini himself wrote the musical notes and made me correct. Giving me his own hand, he made me write at his little table. Both of us played together on the same chamber that each of us had. He did not consult raise the question of the rights. The matters came to a head in 1714, while the Emperor's summer retreated the whole. This was his colleague, Matteo Riva, who he said, quite a number of the world, but I don't get them, they're all in the British Museum. That's very good, and they're rather good. In response to a direct question, he outlined to him the contents of the Payable Legislation. To his surprise, the emperor's reaction was not to be outbursts of righteousness in nation predicted by the Jesuits, but a calm and thoughtful appraisal as if of a matter of little concern. And she then took the unexpected step of commissioning his master, music master, to write to the vote in his behalf. Since he did on the 20th of October 11, which has remained him, you know, give you a little bit of background to the present day, it was not until there that he presented the text and they already dispatched letters to him. Much to Petrini's consternation, it won't do that it should be translated into Chinese, not by Petrini alone, but by the head of the Portuguese Jesuits. Unfortunately, he stopped to bring in all manner of objections to the content in the process of translation, the original text of the letter, largely abandoned in paper one, which accorded our more closely to the changes of the rights. It was in this form that the letter became known in Europe. Neither can she, Norston, be aware of her previous earlier, far more forthright letter. Perhaps it was this rewriting at the hands of the Jesuits that prompted Petrini's decision to send a memorial to the emperor on the 13th of November 17, indeed, hearing the precise contents of the legislation. This was destined to become one of the most widely circulated documents of the controversy. In fact, in such a nation, while scathing of the Jesuits with mutual consent of people prostitution is considerably more in the hope than that of the decision to come along, once the document fell into a Jesuit hands, a little short of the death warrant, embittering, presented between his evident rapport and feeling. But worse of all, he had broken the conspiracy of silence about the post-assistance on the rights. With the help of their court monitoring, they set out to undermine Petrini's credibility, just as they have done. Because I told His Majesty these things, the anger of the Jesuits that aroused against me, every occasion they persecute me, oppress me, hate me in a way that makes it very difficult for me to remain in their house. Their sole desire is that His Majesty expels me from China, does not permit me or anyone else to set themselves to remain here. Enemies of the sacred congregation of propaganda, fide, and their protector, Zhao Chang, lose no opportunity to harm its missionaries. In the following year, in 1760, the Emperor himself prepared in his own hand the text of the famous written manuscript, an investable sign of this 300 copies of which would be sent to Europe. It was to be translated from the Manchu into Chinese and Latin, and then signed by all the missionaries. Nowhere in the text is there any reverence to the rights of each person or to the people's constitution. But instead, kind of his main preoccupation is with the indignities of having no response to his previous endlessness. On the 3rd of November, the short text had been prepared, the Europeans all assembled to sign it. Petrini, alone, refused to do so. On the grounds that he had no idea why the envoys had not returned, that he had never had any communication with them. This refusal enraged the Emperor, but now can't believe that Petrini had thoroughly seen his correspondence with the Rome. In the Jesuit signs, nothing short of a full retraction of everything that he had written for his sufficient to assuage the Imperial Horde. The formal confessional oath was to try it. Petrini was adamant as to his exact wording. If I wrote anything that did not conform to Emperor's thoughts, I wrote his statement. In this oath each Europe, those who were mighty to do so, were in it a retraction of his denatured staff over the years. Petrini is now sought to drive home their advantage, discredit him still herder in the eyes of Kanshi. Raising accusations, which she summarized in the letter to Robert Downer P.J., written in numerical November 17th. Someone else did decoding. There are lots of them and there's actually one that they haven't done, which is very long. Accusations against Petrini, given to the Emperor of China by the Jesuit specific one. Sinu Petrini gave false information to his Majesty by saying that our Pope had already deliberated on the Chinese Right's Controvers too. And he said this for no other reason than to persuade his Majesty to agree, to urge them to advise our Pope to condemn them. Free, that he falsified his mightiest words and wrote to our Pope to say that he could definitely condemn them because his Majesty did not object at all. Or, that our Pope, who was willing to adhere to the Emperor's orders in order to think, only saving this advice, had condemned them and issued the Apostolic Order. All these were blatant lies, since the Jesuits were fully aware that the might had been condemned before ever that really set foot in China. Inevolent, the less had the desired effect. Destroying the Emperor's state, his erstwhile favorite, 1616, permission was in diagnosis. Despite the efforts of the Bishop of the King's Vicar, Carlo Orazzi Adar Castorano, to promulgate the Constitution to the Beijing Jesuits, their only response would depend on the administration of the sacraments. In effect, permission has ceased to function in Beijing. Under such intense pressure for the next two years, Petrie's health declined, but it's less as the Euro in code came forever. Since the end of last year, 1717, senior Petrie felt suffering from violent pains in the head and continuing her vomiting. This illness became worse day by day. It reached the point that when the following year, 1718, began, like fear of being refused, the chance to use poisons. I have shown his innocence might well have been poisoned, and it wouldn't be the first time the Jesuits have poisoned me. With respect to health in the House of the Gentile Mandary, according to Reaper, proposed scandalous comments from the Jesuits. This devil of a priest who pretends to be ill has gone to the Chinese New Year celebrations at the Gentile's house to visit the women. Towards the end of 1719, use was received at the convening of a second obligation to China, and Carlo Orazzi Adar had survived, a chance to get a certain outcome of which filled Petrie with great discrepancies. Jesuits were used to meddling people officials, and so prepared their strategies when in advance. He mounted a slanderous campaign against Petrie, maintaining that it had not been sent by the Pope at all, but by the arrival of Mansur Baba in 1720, he was in fear of his life. The destitute of all human support. I am often obliged for my consolation to remember these words. When the culpable fall upon me to debar my flesh, when the same come to raise the army of the whole society of Jesus against me, I shall always hope and will never leave off from the fight of the fight of the Lord, the sacred Lord, which the Holy See has prescribed to this man. I am threatened with losing my life at the hands of the executioners. From Petrie's account, the treatment of the lego was no less extreme. Mandarin Zhao Zhang and his companion did not cease to harass him with terrible orders from the Emperor, menaces, injuries, contempt, insults. Everything was set into action to lessen his resolution. He kept him in a makeshift prison, putting his soldiers in front of the gates of his lodgings, preventing him from all communication with persons who would have been able to help him. The Jesuit, the Father Moral, Master Zhao Zhang and his companions gave this minister of the Holy See so much torment that during the entire day, apart from the night, he was prevented from drinking, eating and sleeping. The greatest attention was to prevent him from saying a word to the senior Edrini or from learning anything that stands. The official proceedings of the location were to be taken from the so-called Mandarin's diary, allegedly compiled by some court officials. But Edrini was convinced that he had been concocted by the Jesuits and passed over to the Mandarin's. He accordingly refused to endorse it on the grounds that which had answers to the legacy she never made about subjects on which he never pronounced and with many words which he had never spoken at least on the times and occasions they had been attributed to him. How could I attest to sense in you that I had heard what I did not hear at such a reply of the legacy at which he had given when I was absent. Father Moral then gave Zhao Zhang the charge of telling the Emperor that senior Edrini had been due to decide to issue his statement. Once more, the Emperor was enraged but in another case, this time decided to make an example of him. The order that he should be punished under supervision of Zhao Zhang, deprived by the Jesuits' money. The Mandarin's lost no opportunity to promote the Monarch who became enraged in order that senior Edrini should be lazed and with nine large changed. While waiting, his hands joined behind his back. He received blows without numbers on his head, back and stomach, slaps on his face and kicks on all other parts of his body. After he had been spread out from the ground, he also received the pastime in the Chinese pastime. Afterwards he was dragged like a dead beast out of the room but a little while later when he had come round, he found some new men who on the exalt with the first caused him to feel the strength of their arms and their feet but it blows without ceasing which they discharged on him, losing him in a pitiful manner. After 10 days, Emperor relented and in a mistaken act of clemency released him from the public presence into the hands of his small enemies. My misfortune was that the Emperor calmed down. In order to lighten my imprisonment, had me transferred from the public prison to the house of the Jesuits. That was not without fascination on their part because they knew full well but among the pagans I would not be watched with so much severity or oppression if I were in there as Edrini found himself under brutal charges would stop at nothing to prevent him from communicating well. Incarcerated him in extreme severity and violence. It was confined to a little courtyard on the south side where the kitchen was found and attached to it speaking. I liked the public conveniences that with the excessive heat of piquing, a stench was continually given off capable of making a man die who was locked up there. If God did not have compassion among the enforcement. He then erected a wall without a door and with a single window locked by a cave outside. One of their servants had orders to open it only twice a day to be proved just as one does a page by an Emperor of course had no knowledge of any of this. The Venus salvation came on the death of Kashi in the succession of his fourth son, John Helm, and since it was the custom to grant a universal embassy to Christmas as his measurement. Now by the grace of God I find myself at liberty in a position to be able to serve the Holy See according to my feeble force during the little night I have been. I am freed by this new Emperor against the expectation of all, especially those of the Jesuits who certainly believed that they had made it possible only to die of their hand. New Emperor, it's unraged between a full blame. He resumed courtly duties for a further 23 years in 1740. Recently after his release from prison, he decided to invest in substantial poverty in a seizure of interest. Hence he had become the piquing residence of the propaganda missionaries where he would build a church, large part from the revenue earned to the teaching on music, the sale of musical instruments. This is the third church on the site in the church. It is unhappily beautiful, really. That's my principle, by the way. That's very eccentric. Last time I was knocked down with throwing boxes. Statists of this building as a house give it immunity in the centuries imposed on the other three churches by the 1724 lead it, prescribing the preaching of Christianity. Chinese Christians clocked there in their thousands. The dream informs Reaper that he was able to say two buses a day. They should have been truly remembered, had imposed their own restrictions by ceasing to minister the sacraments. In 1716, the situation became where the expertise of the missionary is still valued highly. Actually very different from the severity in which Christians were treated in provinces. Despite the various eating and the boredom rights that's been being reported on the 23rd of October, 1741. In pairs of religions, there is peace to be held in the kingdom. In the provinces, there is trouble time to time about the cause of peace. Here in the capital, sovereign Jesus in peace, although there is little contact. It's still strongly felt in some courts that it was my three needs, on the contrary, and on compromising stats on your Chinese rights. It was largely responsible eventful to pressure the first mission of China, for which he was personally asked. He belonged to those two missionaries who fully repaid the decrees of the Holy Sea and preferred the ruin of the Chinese mission, rather than the commitment to pursue Christian's rights. In reality, the Chinese rights only became an issue in so far as the Jesuits wished to make it so. Had they not decided to enlist the emperor and their disparate claims, probably it would have been made in ignorance of it. It's through the Chinese audience with the Bishop of Konong in 1705 that the emperor first became aware of the alarming extent of European infiltration in the province. Purpose-initially, yeah, the control of immigration rather than the attempt to enforce the rule of the Athenian madame. Some servants have not in one kind of issues priorities as can be seen, but his eagerness to retain services of the propaganda missionaries are called, none of whom were required in petition for the PR. Here, if unrest be made constant in the spring of 1717, the Brigadier-General Van Donk's triumph, delivered a memorial to the imperial authority, the strongest in European constituted a great threat to the teen state along its southern coastal regions. I know that the nature of Europeans is barbaric and they use the banner of religion to control Japan, but I also know that after they seized the Philippines, in Guangzhou and other places they constructed many churches and have won over the minds of countless persons. Therefore, we may consider the Europeans the most vicious and the most difficult to handle. Since there were then over 10 men of war, each with 100 cannon and Bacar harbour tending to continue to count on, his suspicions were seen to be justified, and his rights issue was a dispute among European Catholics. Adrini always maintained that had possessions were quick to contend other equally, thus from such a concrete renown, had been willing to accept the decision of the whole institution. This would have been tolerated by the emperor, a measure of little concern, and prohibition was no impediment to the flourishing of Beijing's church. Now become a proverb among the Christians he goes to Petrini's church or else to the congregation in seven circles. Just as a way of saying that he observes the constitution, Adrini always insisted that his actions had been, as he put it, a MTG, a plurium, a glorium, rather than a MTG, an old MTG. What you heard here is actually a crime story. It's like a novel. It's better than a novel because it's actually true. I've studied this episode a few times from different angles. I was surprised to study from the Jesuit angle, but it's the severity of the treatment and also the language is extraordinary. It is an intra-European affair with international diplomatic consequences. A parallel case would have been, in the 20th century, a discord between the different types of communist believers from different directions, but belonging to the same organization, the same party, more or less. This is within the Roman Catholic Church and this is within a setup which was actually authorized by the Holy See initially, but communication at that point is, of course, a vital issue because if you've worked in an archive, for example, in the propaganda video, you can see the dates and the dates between when a letter was sent and when it arrived and the difference is sometimes enormous. So in a situation like this, everything relies on the local situation and the local interpretation at the time and it is very difficult to rely on guidance from at this point. I was fascinated by your talk. I was very much taken back to times when I had time to research and I would like to invite all of you to ask anything also about the wonderful documents that you saw. Do you know what order is really belong to? Yes, the Congregational Mission, he was a Lazarist. That's the whole point. Tim was the only one who wanted Lazarists to join the occasion. There's some particular animosity between that order and the juzzles. There was animosity between the Jesuits and everything of order because very much of it really changed all the time. Are you a Jesuit? I'm a Jesuit, isn't it? But I have to say that when I was in my teens, I didn't see them become Jesuits. So this is burning down. But I'm afraid it's not to do with that, what they were doing downright criminal. And then after the suppression, of course, many Jesuits became Lazarists officially. So it's the CM becomes essentially a, it becomes the Jesuits in waiting because, of course, they would be later re-admitted. Can you go back with that? The talk that was really interesting, fascinating actually. I have two questions. The first one, I know you said that the musical side of the story wasn't as interesting as the right controversy, but I was wondering what role maybe music played in this. I mean, you kind of suggested that the intimacy between Concy and Adrini was formed through music. I'm not sure if in any of the other material you looked at, there's stuff on Concy's reception of this music, how I interpreted it, and how that may be played in a role. And then the second one was just about the aftermath of this and whether or not the behavior of the Jesuits had any impact on the way that the courts saw capitalism in China. Right, so the first thing is that I wrote a number of articles on that really used to get to my terms of 19,000 Italian, but the thing is that it's fascinating, fascinating to me, it's such a case you shouldn't know so much about West Virginia. This first meeting with West Virginia, he asked me, please, I always say to musicians that if you had suddenly done, there wasn't a thing to tell most 12 persons. That's all the questions you were asking. Amazing. And the truth is that this matter to do with the music, to do with Thomas Pereira. Now, I've tried, anyone's interested, as one of my students to work on Pereira, and he did. He's a PhD, he never did this one, and then I started my manuscript to my treatise on Western music, which means writing the between you took over, which is part of the part of it. So that's probably what I'm going to say, you know, you have double night energy. I tell you what's most interesting is that I ask him whether he uses C, you know, C or C. Will they only use C in France? I think it's really important in the 19th century, so she could only get known. So would you say music played a large role in the sort of actual people engagement between the Chinese, I mean, all of these rehearsals and whatnot, but would this be the first one thing between the three and seven musicians as well? Well, another interesting one is there's no, there's no more. The doctors also, well, they really know much about Western music. Now, all we know is what really tells us is that they used to do concerts. One, two. I really quite understand what you're saying, but why can't she does not trade between us like political contrivals or like, you know, for Dutch, without that, like a protest dance, which is like different, you know, why can't she don't think exactly, but then you could like, against confusion, without against like, the balance, you know, the balance between us. I can say the truth is that she was an excellent question. When does she say they say that? It's not interesting. So don't forget everything we have. It's not that she's any time to speak up. There's never any I didn't catch that, so truly he said that he was not interested in Confucianism, that was not interested in that. Well, it was some deductions. Some Chinese or... These three Chinese. I'm quite interested in saying that Confucianism is easier. Okay. And of course I was... He was very interested. He never used Confucianism. He uses the transliteration into Latin or into Machu. Into Latin. Yeah. Just a little French. You had it with Cardinal about 12 years ago. I don't know what's the meaning. I don't suspect you would know what's there. Was that Maynard? What is the name? Yeah, I have to try to remember what we told me and then... Okay. Yeah. It's been a long time to write this. I know that my story is the same place. My music department, I think, 30 years in 2010. I've been to Beijing in 2006. And 2010, my ultimate job, so to give. So I suspect that... I've got a captive audience here. I'll just tell you some things. I'm not being recorded now. I've got.