 should we get started? We have a we have a quorum, right? Yes. Yay! We have a link and we have a quorum. Here we go. Pellentine's joining as well, but we can we can get started. So if folks want to pull up the minutes from the 14th, you know, we talked about the, you know, potential DEI trainings for city staff and city staff liaison. And that looks like about it. Anyone want to make a move to approve? I move to approve. Jeremy moves to approve. I will second. All in favor? Aye. Yeah. Any opposed? All right. We have to make, I think we have to make a motion to approve with the agenda or is that not necessary anymore? We don't need to approve the agenda. Okay. Done. Yeah. Yeah. Just if there's any anything else that we want to talk about, we can bring it up in any other business. I just have a question because I'm not even clear about this. So if I'm representative of the city, do I vote then on the team or am I really this year to observe the process and be a liaison? Kelly? No. So you're the liaison. So you're not appointed. So there's a pretty distinct set of things to do. But that's a good question, Carol. We can certainly talk about that a little bit more. And we've got, yeah, Lauren and Jennifer as our city council representatives, but they can vote, right? Yeah. Cool. And so if Helen joins and runs, yeah, or runs and joins, then we can still have her part of this as well. All right. Any other public comment or any other business? I'm just, I don't know Kelly. Hi, Kelly. I'm Jeremy. Yeah. Sorry, we can do introductions. Chair, can I introduce myself? Yeah, please. So I am Kelly Murphy. I am sort of acting finance director right now and also the assistant city manager. So I'll be transitioning fully into the assistance role pretty soon. But for right now, it's double duty. And so that's, that's me. Great. Nice to see you. You too. Glad to have you on this committee. Yeah, thanks, Michael. Should we do a quick round of intros? And Ditto for Carol that you're now just a visitor, but you're part of it. That's great. Michael, do you want to introduce yourself? Michael Sherman. I'm the last standing member of the original committee, which I can't even remember when that when that we were we were created, but I'm a resident of Montpelier for going on to 37 years. And I'm retired. But I'm the editor of Vermont History, the Journal of Historical Society. And this is the only one of three committees I've been on for the past several years. I'm glad to be down to one. Jeremy. Hi, Kelly. I'm Jeremy Bodrie, Montpelier resident. Now for a little over six years. Live up on Elm Street near the Nature Center. And my day job, I work for the UVM Health Network. Yeah, I've been on the committees. It's been just about two years, I think. Palin. Morning, everyone. It is very, very nice seeing all of you virtually. So it has been a long time. Hi, Kelly. I'm Pellin Kohn. I work for Norwich. I'm the leadership program chair and leadership center director. And I think it has been almost like four years that I'm on this comedy. And I'm very happy working this group. We did fantastic thing, I think, all the time we meet. And Lauren or Carol? Yeah. Yeah, Carol Plant. I'm the director of the Community Justice Center. I think Kelly knows me pretty well. I think we all know Lauren too. Good morning and issues. But thanks for going to meet the link, Shayna. But nice to see you all. I think I know everybody. But great to be with you. And I've been on this committee for like four years or something. Yeah. Times all like, you know, construct during the past three years of doing it remotely. Yeah, and Shayna, your pronouns, I'm up on Kent Street and got work in prescription drug pricing reform right now and have also been on the Mopiliar Community Fund Board with Michael who just left. So very exciting. Okay, well, we're going to talk more about like community makeup and charter and things like that in just a second. But before we do for Elks Club project outreach, it looks like no one's been able to make it. And we've had, you know, it's a lot has happened over the past couple of months. And so maybe just to ground us and kind of why why we're doing this and where we're at. Oh, hello, Evelyn, we just did a round of intros. Sorry if you want to Sorry, I'm back. Go ahead. So hi, everybody. I'm Evelyn Prim. I'm the new communications coordinator for the city of Montpelier. I have been trying to make the rounds to all the communities just to put a face to this new position. So I primarily work with the city manager's office, but I also collaborate with everybody else in the in the city administration as well. Great. Hi, we're sorry. Go ahead. To say hello. Thanks. Okay, so for the public process, kind of where we left off from last time is that I've connected that Jeremy, Josh to Creative Discourse, because they have the list of people that they did their outreach to that are kind of that public that protected from, you know, the public. And so if they wanted to do outreach there, they've done a couple of, you know, like walkthroughs and other public spaces to hold your public input in including, you know, including walkthroughs of the of the space and then for, you know, committee chairs and other kind of community forums. And so there's like, yeah, a couple of different phases as they've shared of being able to like for the different goals of engagement at these different stages. And now we're in the winter stage, which is actually like the quietest one, right? So there was like a bunch of outreach in the beginning. Now they're kind of consolidating all of that outreach and being able to make a proposal. And then in early like late winter, early spring, they're going to be, you know, sharing that proposal of the space and asking for feedback there. And so I think, you know, just thinking about like, what is our role as C. Jack to be able to facilitate having that be a really robust public process. And we attached some of the thinking that we had done last meeting. But yeah, let me stop pause there and open it up for like any big picture reactions, reflections, additions. So I know that there are quite different ideas about that land. And it does anyone have the like a majority wish, right? I keep hearing different things like housing, new recreation center, right? You know, a couple other ideas. I know that they will ask public opinion, but is there any, you know, trend that's winning? I do remember being in a meeting where they said that there were three things that came to the surface, but I'm not remembering what they are. So I'm trying to see if I can pull them up now. But I think it was like housing, recreation, something else. Was there anything about childcare? Yeah. Sorry, Michael. I heard also like moving all the schools there and using like school buildings for housing, you know, again, there are so many ideas, but I don't know which ones are having the like most attraction. Lauren, were you gonna coming off a? Sorry, I can't unmute you. Sorry having tech problems this morning. I mean, I think it's too early to say like at this point, the like the bond as it was issued specifically named recreation and housing. So I think there's like been an understanding all along that some version of those will be part of it. And then it's like, what else might be might the land be used for like schools is complicated. That's like a different jurisdiction. So that I would be surprised if that's where they went. But but I love people putting out creative ideas. So I think like right now that they're doing like the land assess people to understand like the engineering like what are the constraints of the land? What are the opportunities that I think will make the public process like the next phase easier to be like, okay, kind of reality fact, like, it would be good for X, Y and Z like here's the places here's like the amount of actual acreage that would be good for different uses. And then go, you know, look at the public view back so far and then do like the next phase of it with that. Just kind of like reality check of what's what would really work there from a variety of perspectives. And correct me if city staff that there's anything about that. That was my understanding. You mentioned the third one you said housing, recreation and what was the third one, Lauren? I think the only two named in the bond were housing and recreation. The the other one I remember from some of the public meetings was like some portion conserved. I think I think we'll be part of it. But just based on like the way the land is, I'm guessing that will probably be part of it. But and those three, I think like that that early meeting with Paul Costello, but like those were the three buckets that he had kind of oriented the meeting around. But again, I'm not sure what else might come out from the public or the consultants. And I just found my notes. Sorry. Yeah, looks like the feedback in the fall of 2022 has been housing, recreation, plus environmental conservation, agriculture, retail and education. And then in spring of 2023, or sorry, first, there's going to be kind of the opportunities and constraints assessment with public workshops, where it will then have provide direction to create two or three concept plans. And then spring of 2023 will bring forward these two or three scenarios to be considered for development pathways and then with like more specific cost comparisons. And that sounds right. And so yeah, I think I'm like, oh, go ahead. Sorry, just to note that the consultants way and Burke will also be on the city council's agenda for next week to give an update on kind of where they're at and some of the sort of assessments of the site and what's possible. So that will hopefully feed kind of maybe some of the discussion going forward for the next round of comment. And so yeah, just like, what is CJAX role at this point? You know, if we provided support and saying like, here are some of the communities that we think makes sense to have you reach out to, you know, folks who, you know, that don't speak English as the first language, people who, you know, like it's just like, we kind of provided a lot of those, you know, specifics as well as just kind of like the process conversations about like, what, what are the barriers or incentives to practice participation and just really trying to support it being like a robust public process. Now it is kind of rolling is that our continued role is to just I mean, this is like leaning into our next conversation about like the charter of CJAX at large. And so do we do we want to continue just to like point people in by like asking questions of who should be prioritized as part of this conversation or is there more is there a different role that we can see CJAX playing for both this process and then kind of leaning into what are our next steps? And I'm also like looking at all the city staff on the call too of like, do you guys have a particular request or suggestion for us as well? I can jump in real quick, just to give a quick overview on my role in this in this process as well. So I am I'm part of the team that is organizing and spearheading the country club road development like master planning process. And so my role in communications is to help facilitate that public outreach process. So I we like we are going through the process. We've done our the phase one outreach and now we're gearing up for phase two. And so we're we're again kind of reevaluating and making sure we have identified a vast and expansive group of community stakeholders. And so I am so I'm I'm still learning the different roles of each committee because there are there are quite a few. So forgive me if I if I don't quite understand the nuances of this one. But the way I am imagining the this team this the city's team coordinating with the various committee chairs and like using that network, like we all have a network where we are where we know folks. So like I know you and I can just imagine each person on this committee has has their own, you know, groups that they're associated with. And so if we like envision just that hub and spoke model, whereas new communication and updates from the city materialize, I would help facilitate the distribution of that information. And then so like one of the functions would be sending those updates to all the committee chairs who could then help disseminate that information to their their various networks. That makes sense. Jeremy for you. Yeah, I have a question about the the outreach engagement sessions that happened this fall. Any sense of demographics of attendees to that like numbers, kind of which so anecdotally, anecdotally, it was mostly older folks, like part of I would say, just about to retire or retired folks. We are still trying to robustly involve parents and folks that would be interested in recreation just because that was part of the bond focus. And so we really want to prioritize the voices of the people who, you know, would have the most interest in participating in this project, but also reaching out to folks, you know, who we just we have not seen represented yet, which is younger folks and again, trying to coordinate with like the school communities is one of our big priorities right now because it's obviously a great place to to reach a lot of younger folks and parents at the same time. So yeah, that's anecdotally, it's older folks with more time on their hands who have been participating. And my can I assume that people involved in this also include the folks working with the homeless population and and also I guess the Department of Parks would have a so are they on the planning committee or are they just on the way in the wings? So we had a meeting with the different boards and commissions committee chairs and so they were parks and like the tree board and other folks in that area were part of that conversation. And so we we had initially asked for feedback for the initial Phase One to come in by by today, just so we would then have sort of a body that we could work with for to aggregate the next steps. And so that does not mean that the like our listening sessions and feedback is is ended. It's just we wanted to to have that really robust push first to make sure that we we kind of hit all the all the different nodes. And so as we move into Phase Two, we're kind of, you know, we're winnowing down that the consensus of of that feedback. And I just want to add to that, Michael, that's what I was thinking about, too, is not only the homeless population, but also, you know, the folks that are most difficult in my experience over the years to reach and get feedback from our people who are in financial poverty, right? Like the people who are the the the most disenfranchised just finding ways to to reach them and the way that we, you know, the way that you do it. So, Shayna, when you are mentioning barriers to participation in these forms and that sort of thing, you know, in my experience, providing food and childcare at every one of the events makes it actually possible for some of those folks to show up, giving them some incentives. And which is why, of course, we do the the incentives for people to join committees on the for the city. So to me that that is a focus like that's where I think we need to just continue to be looking at what they're doing and constantly reminding them that this is a group of people that if we want them to actually feel like they belong in the community and that they're going to have a place in this new place, then they need to be considered. And they and we need to say, you know, who these people are, we need to name who they are so that we break down the barriers and and and try to lighten some of the stereotyping that happens in the community. And, you know, and and it seems like we're always we we, you know, it's great to go for parents and families that probably going to end up being the ones that use it the most. But in my mind it's not okay to just target that population because that's where we think we're going to get the most feedback, right? Like let's really make an effort to find a new way to reach out to the other the other folks. Yeah, I think that's really well said. Carol, thank you for sharing that because it's exactly where my my head is on this. I mean, there's already a perception that Montpelier is only for a certain kind of class of people and is increasingly pushing other classes of people out because of affordability issues. So I would hate for this process to kind of reinforce that. The question I have is, you know, for whatever reason, we haven't been able to kind of put this on our plates as a committee to focus on. In terms of the process, though, are there still moments at which we can influence the process itself and some of the kind of action that's taken to include a more diverse group of stakeholders in the feedback sessions? Yeah, I would say there's definitely there's always an open line of communication through Josh Jerome. So he is the community and economic development specialist here in the city and he's the the primary person who is organizing the feedback and and collecting public input. So reaching out to him is a is a great tool. And Kelly, if there's anything else that I'm missing or that you wanted to add in addition to that. No, not at this point. I mean, I think that, you know, really, you know, I think it's engaging folks that haven't been involved. And there's there's definitely quite a lot of populations that just haven't been engaged yet. And so I think that that's where the work of this committee could be particularly helpful in sort of identifying what's missing, just so we do get a full picture. And then in terms of this particular item, but then also thinking about, you know, other items and, you know, how this committee could be useful. I think I was just thinking about the stipend policy and how great that has been as starting to get traction. And so it's ideas like that that I think, you know, maybe perhaps in the future, staff could bring forward for recommendation to help get people engaged. So I think could work on developing a strategy. And also like everyone is also welcome to contact me as well because I am helping facilitate both the external communications of this project, but also internally within city staff as well. So please feel free to reach out to me anytime, especially with with ideas and brainstorming, like like Kelly said, this is like tapping into everybody's specific strengths and unique networks is super important. And I'll just issue a reminder about the $5,000 that we've been awarded one time money to use specifically for DEI efforts and the Department of Corrections has really not given us any guidelines about how to use that. So we can use it for strategic planning. We could use it for incentives. We can as long as we show it on a separate line item in our expenses. So that money is potentially available to do, you know, a portion of this work. So when I'm talking about, you know, childcare and stipends, if we set something up so that we can get the folks that we want to get to the table, we could use the money in that way. As long as it's specifically for addressing inclusivity, you know, in in these efforts. So I and I'm really we at the Justice Senate, we haven't figured out like exactly what we want to do with that money. And, you know, it needs to tie into what we do and restore, you know, with our processes and the people that we serve. But I could see that as being really great use of some of those funds. I'm wondering if this is an OK time to transition to talking more about our committee charge more writ large. Because, yeah, I think it's sounding like there's nothing kind of new coming up and maybe it's a circling back to Josh to remind him about what what we have offered of like the list that we have on the equity audit of Communities and Montpelier to be reaching doing that concerted reaching out to bumping that creative discourse email and then I'm just like how to connect right of offering stipends of, you know, doing that like specific outreach to, you know, specific folks in the community. And so I think. I can I can just like put that on my to-do list to like bump those things. And then why I'm kind of wanting to transition to talking more about the committee charges. I think it's kind of it's it's it's pretty integrated here. So as you guys know, Sea Jack was formed in 2018 with the tasks of, you know, identifying and nurturing projects, engaging in a broad range of city residents and partnering with the city and groups on working on equity and justice for the long term and like specifically of like supporting dialogues to engage broad range of community members and listening to others experiences, attending committees to assist members in recognizing I'm just looking at the charter now unintended negative impacts of policies and unconscious language rates. So we've had like the equity audit on or the equity policy assessment. And then basically taking on new tasks as needed, essentially. And we've had a number of vacant seats for quite a while, and we haven't really been prioritizing filling them until after we have the stipends process in place. And until we kind of have a little bit more of like what we're wanting to have some more of that direction, right? So because we had creative discourse do an initial so we kind of started in 2018 got funding to do the audit and did the audit in twenty nineteen to twenty twenty kind of got that work plan into twenty twenty one, which was focused on like housing, police review committee. I don't have that pulled up right now. Sorry, here it is. And yeah, like the operational, relational and structural changes that were recommended with some of the specific recommendations and kind of coming out of that process, there's like the housing committee, there was the police review committee, there was kind of all these other structures coming out. And we've been kind of, I would say struggling a little bit to figure out what is our role and kind of like the next steps, right? Creative discourses that we're not going to be doing kind of the other we're not moving forward with the other processes coming out of the equity. You know, there was going to be the equity assessment and then some other processes. And there, you know, we've been doing some of those processes in other spaces specific to the need, but not of kind of doing the big picture on big, you know, it's mostly like leaning on staff, leaning on the housing committee, leaning on the police to kind of implement some of these structural changes that were being recommended. And so now, you know, this is just this had gotten brought up at one of the meetings that was not, you know, and like not an official meeting as just like an initial discussion point of like we keep getting approached as C. Jack, as people saying, can you do a DEI training for our committee? Can you do? Can you connect us to, you know, folks in the community and of just saying like, those are not the things that are in our charter. And so, you know, do we want to rewrite our charter and recruit new members based on these new priorities that city members have been approaching us with? Do we want to fold the committee and incorporate the committee's charter into kind of these other standing committees and just like wanting to think of other kind of creative options, kind of recognizing these these issues that have been coming up about our our committee charter. So let me pause there and maybe see if there's any other kind of like identifications of problems before moving into solutions too. Yes, my observation is we definitely seem to be adrift and I think while we should there's a there's some degree of self determination here. I guess in my time, I've not felt a lot of engagement from the mayor or city council at large. And that's excluding Lauren, who's you're awesome. You're you're such a good important component of this committee. But in terms of like a larger conversation in the city council and the mayors and the mayor, it doesn't feel like there's a lot of specific requests coming our way or direction about where we should be focusing our energy. And that's my perception. I'm not. There's probably a lot of conversations. I'm not a part of, of course. So I'm just curious about that. And what does that say about, you know, our place in the ecosystem of city government? And that for me is like contributing to this feeling of like, I don't really know what we're supposed to do. So yeah. Michael, we're going to see them in two. Well, I think we the first things that we started with were specific requests. There was the one about. Living wages for all city employees and I took that on and did a study and sent that to the committee. But that was a specific, you know, task and that it was good to have that. And then nobody else on the committee at that point was interested. But but nonetheless, I mean, that was where we were. We really have to put in some advice. And I agree with Jeremy that, you know, it's a little bit difficult other than monitoring what we have already reported through the through the creative discourse and see what's happening with the implementation of that. I'm not sure what we're doing either. I guess it's been my assumption that that this team would take the next steps from what was learned to create a discourse and and create something to put, you know, out for the community. So, you know, where I'm where I come from, I feel like because we train a lot of volunteers and we're introducing these ideas about diversity and inclusion. You know, as in the ways that we can. So I'm always thinking about like, how are we reaching folks in and in addition to our volunteers? Like, how are we reaching folks in the community? Like, how can we provide, you know, some kind of forum or educational piece to just or to set up conversations where people can get together and talk about their differences in a way that is non-threatening. And, you know, what are, because I think that people need to, we still, I think a lot of people still need to do some internal work around even identifying, you know, where what the issues are that are causing people to feel separate from each other. So I think about like, what is there a next step and is there something that can be created from this team taking the information that was learned from creative discourse and put that together and in some way benefit the community? I don't know exactly what that looks like, but that's my interest. Hey, hey, hey. Sorry, the dog, I did something dropped off my desk. That was what I was saying about it. Sorry, Michael, go ahead. I agree with you, Carol, and I'm starting to sound like a Johnny One note here, but I really feel as if we've been hobbled by the fact that we cannot get names and contact from the people who served as resources to their study. If they already know about us, those people, because creative discourse told them why they were being contacted. But the fact that we can't go forward on our own makes it very difficult to do what I think, Carol, you're suggesting and I agree is very important. What else is out there that we don't know about? And it looks as if and I agree with Jeremy that we have kind of fairly limited scope in our own contacts that bring us into direct contact with most of the people we were trying to reach. So I don't know what to do next about that. And then, well, that's all I'm saying. I don't know what to do next about that. I think, Carol, what you were recommending is not how I understand what is our charter. And I think that is what we have been approached for doing, right? Of doing this education, of like doing, I think like our charter is more of like creating the structures and the systems to be able to bring in like actual experts on doing this work and that like, we're not bringing that expertise. And that's where I'm like, I think if we wanted to change the charter to do more of that education outreach, providing the spaces to be able to have some of these hard conversations, doing the trainings, then I think we would need to change our charter and our membership accordingly. And I think we haven't like had that conversation, but like I know, so I think that's one option. I think another option of what we could be as a committee is to be more ad hoc. And like, I think we, okay, well, or we could continue kind of with what you're saying of like, continuing the work of creative discourse and of doing that. And I think what I'm, I think I've been reflecting what I heard Jeremy say too, is that we've been trying to do that really intensely since like, February, March of like trying to figure out what is the next like project that we're gonna tackle? What is the next like thing that we're gonna take on? And we haven't really, there hasn't been an outcome of that process and like recognizing we haven't had a lot of meetings and things like that. And this was started in, you know, 2021 too, you know, after we got the report in August from creative discourse. So this has been a little while of trying to figure out what that next structural thing is gonna be. And so, yeah, I think there's kind of like, seems like there's three different options. Like we continue to figure out what the next thing is gonna be. We continue to do that like structural analysis. We change our charter and focus more on like doing like DEI training and DEI work or we become more like an ad hoc committee where we, when we get requests from city council, we meet and kind of more like the like, the fund committee, right? It was like, you know, once a year, we like get together and we like work on a project. And then we like disband based on, you know, we only kind of get together when faced with these requests. I don't know if there's other options on the table, but that's kind of what I was thinking of. My understanding is because we are an advisory committee, our job is to collect data and advise city council, not take an action, maybe I'm wrong. We can always go back our strategic plan, our committee strategy plan and pull up things that we can work on, but the even name of the committee says that we can advise, right? Not take an action and go to, you know, do other things. I don't know what to think. Well, the other thing. Harry, where are you gonna? Go ahead. Just the other thing I'm hearing in the conversation is that the not having input from city council or from the mayor's office in terms of priorities. So I know that, you know, I make note of that in my own brain that I don't hear talk about that, you know, from that level, and I might just be missing something, but so I hear that, you know, that we can, so it's a chicken and egg thing, right? Do we advise and say, oh, this is what should happen or are we waiting for direction from city council and the mayor's office? And just to reframe that and be slightly differently is like, I think we've also now created the structures where there's better spaces of different expertise to tackle some of these issues. Right now there is a housing committee. Now there is this like process, like parks process. So yeah, just to say that. I mean, my perspective, I'm glad we're having this conversation and agree with like pretty much everything that's been said. I would say from like the city council perspective, like my impression is there's like, okay, we funded and did the equity assessment and I feel like most of the city councilors and the mayor, it's like, okay, we did this process. It's great. We were really like excited to do that and assume that this committee is kind of an implementation mode of that. I do think there's a lot of flexibility. Like I feel like C. Jack actually does come up a lot in the city council of like when we're talking about different public processes or things, it's like, it's kind of like, oh, we've got this committee who can like think through it. I think, and I don't know if that's kind of like an excuse not to integrate it more fully in like every committee. Like it's almost like, oh, we've got this committee. So great, we can like check equity. So, you know, maybe it's a part, but I don't think it is well integrated into other committees yet. The other ones I serve on, there is not a deep understanding of equity and like there's a lot of work to do. So like to me, the answer would not be disband this because okay, we've done our equity assessment. It's like, I think revisiting our mission and having a really intentional conversation and plan and present that to city council. But I think we could drive what we think feels like the right next steps for given where the city is. I mean, there's the ideas that have been talked about. I think, and I agree that changing the mission could mean changing the structure of the committee. And I think council would be totally open to that. Like I think they want this work done, don't really know how to do it. Like we know better than they do, I would say. And so I think it would be very open to like what should the next phase of this work look like? I think the other piece that hasn't come up, but could be a focus is like, yes, there are a bunch of other committees, but there's our ideas. Like one of the things that got in the strategic plan is like a just cause eviction policy. The housing committee is like so overwhelmed. Like maybe that would be something that this committee could spend time on instead of the housing committee that's working on has a ton of other projects on their to-do list. Like so there might be some more like policy issues that are really getting at core equity issues that we look at the updated strategic plan and like are there policy decisions coming up that we feel like we should play that important role in like how would you shape it? Why, you know, is this a good equity policy? And if so, what does it need to contain to meet our equity objectives? Go ahead, Michael. Yeah, I'm sorry, Jeremy left because I was just about to get to the tool that he sort of finally pulled into shape that we worked on for a long time. And what can we do with that? Can we pass that now along? We passed it to the city council so that they have that as some kind of measuring stick for decisions and policies that they are making. Can we intrude on the committee autonomy to pass along that same planning tool to each committee so that they also use it? Is there any other use for that particular document which I think is probably our other most successful effort to advise the city on these? And the other thing is, well, who is now monitoring the implementation of all the training programs that came out of result of the Creative Discourse Report? I assume, Kelly, that that's part of your work. Is that right? Who's got that place as basically equity guardian or whatever, equity consultants, I don't know. So it's my understanding that we did work, to implement the initial phase of the recommendations within the report. And I think that there likely probably is sort of a next step that needs to be taken. And certainly that would flow through the city manager's office. Truthfully, in the transition, I think we do need to assess where we're at and where we're going. So I mean, it's a good opportunity just based on the conversations here to kind of figure that out and make sure that we're reporting back on exactly what is happening or is not happening. So that then you have good information. At this point, I don't have anything to share in terms of a status because to be completely honest, I don't know what has, where we're at right now. So I would need to do a status check for sure to see sort of what is in that report, what we've accomplished. It's just sort of get like a baseline benchmark and then go from there. And also evaluating what efforts were made. The audience response to the trainings that we've done as a result of the report, that would be helpful. It's sounding like there's definitely still a need for providing the ad hoc like reactive support kind of like with this example of the just cause eviction policy. I think when I've done like the outreach, yeah, when I've done the like, hey committee, like remember who we are here as CJAC people. I think that the kind of the response keeps being like, oh yeah, like we really need to like do a training for our committee. And we like need to do a training for staff and we need to like do more of this like training work. And we keeping like, okay, well like here's some groups that you could call to do it. And there's like multi year long waiting list to get on any of like the lists that are doing this work in Vermont. And so I think, yeah, we keep being approached and like we're desperate, can you do this? And we're like, that is not who we are. We are not trained to do that. Like, is that, that's a long way of me saying, do we want to incorporate that into our charter and change our committee makeup based on it? Cause it sounds like the other two things I'm hearing, yes. And that one is like, I just have, I have no idea. I, yeah. So how are other committees, Shayna, do you know that? Do they just do what you just suggested by doing, changing our committee mission and everything or how do they act? What do, do they advise like us? Or do they, you know, take action, other committees? I think other committees have a much more, much narrower charges. And that allows them to focus in on, I've served on several committees, city committees. The police one was ad hoc and the police committee was ad hoc and had a limited lifetime and it had one specific goal. The foundation, the Montelier, not foundation, but the community fund has a specific goal. Replacing all the ballot items and doing the work of screening those. I was on the tree board for a while. I was on the conservation commission. They're all very narrow. This is our charges very broad. And I think that that's the problem that we ran into. We knew what to do first, respond to anything that came from the council. We knew what to do second, give them some, the tool that they need to consider, use when they were making policy. Then the third was the big report. And those were very focused and they had a timeline. And well, I guess the other big effect is the stipend policy, which I'd like to hear about a little bit more. But we don't have that kind of focus in our charge. And either, I think we really are at the either or point. Either we create a bigger and more explicit focus or we just let the city council basically say, okay, this problem belongs to this committee and let them do it. And we pass along whatever it is that we have. And I think Jeremy's toolkit is the perfect thing to pass along to every committee so that they and the council are working together towards that end. I guess one thought on that. I mean, I think, I think there are some committees that also have big charges like address homelessness. Like that is a big charge, also very complicated, multifaceted. And I think those committees struggle more with trying to figure out like C. Jack with like, how do we focus? I mean, I think it could be like that we could look at our actual mission and rewrite it to be narrower and more focused and then just focus there. And a lot of committees meet like once a month instead of every two weeks. So like we could take a narrower focus and like reconfigure a little. Or I think it's also like we just pick, I mean, it's such a broad mission. You could say like this is how we're interpreting it. This is what we think the 2023 priorities are. This is where we're gonna focus, do a presentation to council just to reality check. Does this feel right, based, you know, is there anything that seems missing? But, and then just like go forward. And I think council would be thrilled that we're taking the initiative to like be like, this is how we're gonna focus. We have a really broad mission this year. This is what we're seeing as the priorities. I mean, I again, like, there's like the responsiveness and like the policy work that I think we can play a role and like handing out the tool. Like I do think that capacity around training and stuff, like the other committees I'm on, I think would struggle with implementing that tool without guidance and help and support to do that well. So how do we, how do we do that? And maybe that's a big focus is like a little more hand holding. So we're like training the trainers kind of thing. Like how are we building more capacity across the city committees and government and you know, if at some point we put ourselves out of work, great. But I just don't think we're there yet based on what I see in the other committees. There's a lot of struggling with like wanting to understand the implications and a very, I don't know, superficial analysis from what I've seen of just, just cause people like it's complicated and hard. It feels like a little bit far afield from the core mission of the other work that they're doing is how it comes across right now. I think there should be some consistency among committees. So if the idea having all the city committees to allow them at like very specific task, then every committee should have mission like that. If you think that which my, my idea is like Karen, sorry, Lauren just mentioned having broader mission and just pulling off things and okay, this is our focus for this year. Then every committee should be doing, doing the same thing, should have same approach. Otherwise, as Michael said, there will be so many different way of doing things. You're muted. That's why you can't hear me. Sorry. When do we want to be, when do we want to meet again? Cause we usually meet every other week that would put us to December 21st. I think like our, it seems like our next steps from here would be to like pull together some more of like that proposal. And I think I can maybe pull together something between now and the next, I guess the seven, the 16th, which would be the, getting it on the agenda of like, what could some of these changes look like? And then to have something to work off of. But I think I think I'm hearing, we don't want to be closing as a committee. We think there is still value in us holding space for looking, doing this like evaluative work. There is still space, there is necessary space for supporting other committees in their work. And that could be not doing like DEI training, but to do just like provide support and hand holding and like the work that we've already created, but provide, yeah, providing more of that hands-on support. So I think does that sound okay as the next step of like, we outlook like, just create some language to work off of, to then to be able to bring to the city council in early 2023. Does that make sense? And Shane, I'd be happy to work on that with you. Oh, great. Okay. And then I know the 21st is the 21st. And so does that work for folks? Does that make sense? I'm not going anywhere these days. So great. So let's plan on that. So we'll get you materials on the 16th, 17th. 16th, 17th. Sorry, 16th and 17th. And then that'll give us some time too to talk more about something that got added to the other business part of the agenda. And now it can be an actual agenda item is that Michael is going to be on the, it's going to be the CJAC representative for the police captain interview committee. I don't know what it's called, something like that. But as like the CJAC representative to just if there are any specific questions that we want to make sure get asked or evaluate as criteria that we want to identify before that, I'm hoping, yeah, it probably won't happen in the next two weeks if you haven't heard anything yet, right? I mean, I guess we have city staff on the call. Do we know, is that, is that an okay to punt that? I probably would not punt that. I'm not sure if we've got anything on calendar yet, but I do know that the intent is for us to get something scheduled. So if that hasn't happened yet, Michael, I do think that it will be happening soon. Sorry to be cryptic, because I'm not trying to be helpful, but I think, and I can check my calendar too, to see if I've got anything on there at this point. Didn't budget our time appropriately. Do you can folks stay on for five more minutes? Yes. Okay, I have to step out. First, what I can do is I can follow up with you too to give you sort of a timeline on what that looks like so that I've got the exact dates. For the police? Yeah. Yeah. There is a time for that, I thought. Oh, I thought I saw one come across the wire too. No, I don't know, I have my calendar available. I got something about a meeting, at least a Zoom address, but I don't know if there was a particular time for that. Yes, December 12th. Police. At 10 o'clock? One to two. One to two, okay. Okay, that's coming up real fast. All right. Yeah, but I've got that on my calendar too, Michael. So yeah, yes, confirm, sorry, thank you. I didn't need to actually delay, thank you for giving me the time to take a look at that. Great, we won't put that on our agenda for next month. Next meeting, but we will talk about it right now. Go ahead. So if anybody has any suggestions for specific questions that I should pose to the candidate, what, can they send them directly to me? Is that allowed under the rules? Do you know, Kelly? I think that as long as there's not an exchange. Okay. And it's more of a repository than it should be, okay. All right. So if anybody has any specific questions, please send them to me quickly so that I have, I'm ready to go into the, because I'm going representing CJAX, specifically the requested gone to Shayna and Shayna passed it along. Well, just, yeah, because you were on the police review committee. I feel like, yeah, that made total sense to me. I think I was just, yeah, I think of like pretty like broad like open-ended questions about like how, you know, yeah, how do you, I mean, yeah, I think like, you know, as we all remember the last police chief process was kind of happening right at the very start of the uprising in summer of 2020. And so, and it's just like, I think a lot of, I felt that there was not necessarily like the communications around like recognizing this like moment in history of, you know, countering like racialized police violence. And so I like, if there's like an open-ended question around like, you know, yeah, how do you, you know, I don't know what the language would be, but of just like having one or two open-ended questions about like how do they see their work as credit, like as a critical role in, you know, like providing questions that are not necessarily about like safety, but about community and about how, yeah, something along those lines that I don't have any type of question language written out and I will probably not do it today. But that's, yeah, I want to make sure that something like that gets asked. Yeah, well, we have a few days. So if anyone thinks of anything. Yeah, maybe one question could be about budgeting, right? We know that city had to cut down budget. And so what's the plan? Because sometimes money, money is so important to do things. So is there any plan to work efficiently with the last number of workforce and money or budgets, whatever we call it? I wonder too, just, and I just, I'm not going to have time to like write up a question. I'm sorry, it's so much going on right now. But I mean, I think just like looking at the CJAQ mission and like something about the core values that the city has expressed in, as your role as the CJAQ member of the interview committee as like important priorities and values of the community. And just like to Sheena's point, like an open-ended question of like, what have you seen working so far in the police department to advance these values and what would your priorities be to be through the police department working to build a more equitable, inclusive community? And how do you see the police department's role or something in that vein? Okay, I guess they had done some training as a result of the police overview and the CR report, so the CD report. So I can ask about that because he's been part of it, of course. Okay, that gives me enough and so pretty large committees. So probably none of us will have more than one or two questions that we can get stuck in the time that it's only an hour, so that's not a lot of time. But thank you for that. Thank you, Michael. Yeah, thanks for taking the sun. Okay, so see you all on the 21st. Yeah, I think that's it. One last thing. Could we get some, Kelly, you said that the stipend report is really working. Can we get something to talk about for that meeting? Get some firm information? Yeah, sure, I mean, I can certainly, are you thinking that you'd like detail on maybe year-to-date spend and number of people enrolled? Is that kind of? I think that would be useful for us to know how this is going, what numbers and... I will certainly try to get something prepared for the 16th, I think it can do that. We are also under budget development right now, so there are multiple requests for my time, as I'm sure you can imagine. This shouldn't take me very long. So long story short, I will really try to get something into your packets, sort of a quick memo of where we're at with it, and then go from there. Thank you. Thanks so much, see you all. Bye, everybody.