 Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast from the Kama Sutra to 2020 where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always, we have with us Dr. Anvita Madanbehel. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kama Sutra has to give. Welcome Anvita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. And with that today's question comes from a young lady I'm going straight into the question because it's a long one and it's something that we've dealt with in little tiny bits or in portions over time. But this is a lady who's actually written in with a bunch of things that are happening in her relationship and I think you are the right person to address them. So she says that she's been married about two years and their sex life has always been dull it's always been bad right from the beginning, but she's tried very hard and she stayed optimistic she's tried to change things. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, and she's starting to lose patience, and she sent a few little mini questions around what are the things that are happening in the relationship. So she says that to begin with sex or penetration aside, her husband will not even kiss her, and he hasn't kissed her anywhere on her body and she says that initially she used to initiate it but now out of a fear of rejection and also the fact that if she asks him to do it he gets really angry. And that fear of his anger. She's actually stopped asking altogether. The second thing is that she says that her husband resists sex, even when he's hard so it's not that he's not getting hard, even when he's hard he doesn't want to have sex. She says that he rushes into fingering without any kind of forplay any kind of conversation and if she's still dry which he is at the beginning, it really hurts. If every now and then they do decide that they will have sex it's very scheduled. It's all about okay let's have sex on Sunday which she feels it's just becoming too scheduled and it's like losing the excitement for her it's never organic. And she says that in the last couple of months, it has started to hurt so much that she doesn't know whether it's her body resisting because of all the psychological issues or whether it's an actual condition and she said that she is going to the gynecologist for a proper checkup but it's still worth exploring because sometimes these things are literally psychological. And finally she says that she hasn't had no gasm and God knows how long it's just never a priority. We usually end up finishing when he climaxes and he generally climaxes through a hand job. And it's just like a it's like a non starter as far as she's concerned and by now I can see your expression and you're thinking oh my God this really does sound awful what a terrible way to live. But she has actually gone on to say that initially she did try and address the issue because you know most people end up thinking that the woman hasn't tried and we often think that it's actually the man wanting sex and the woman doesn't want it and we want to make a point of saying that both sides, both genders are equally capable of feeling pleasure and have the desire to feel so. But anyway she says that initially when she did address the issue, he made me believe that my request for sex was unreasonable. And the fact that she wanted to be aroused was just an ideal mind talking. And it's just a discussion that he won't have and he shrugs it off. And she says that she would like to work towards making this marriage work but at this point she's just getting very frustrated and is getting to that point where which we know it can be a sort of make and break situation. Oh God I feel for the woman honestly I do. And this is what we spoke about in our video of sexless marriage right like this is where it starts in some ways when you're trying trying trying and when things don't work. And you just you know believe oh I just don't like sex and it could be either gender you know and then you come to this point and from there it's just downhill. But I think one of the most pertinent or important points she makes is the lack of intimacy and that you know he wouldn't even kiss her. And if I could make a video just on that I would want to say that we always think or we always believe that sex is something that happens then and there you know you start with the four play have sex finish with the climax and that's it. Actually for sex to be better and more enjoyable if there's intimacy in the relationship that changes everything because otherwise it's the physical act and I'm not like I know there'll be people out there who will say oh but you know what about the one night stand and everything. I'm just talking about within a relationship. If there is a long term relationship. The idea that you you know just holding hands or kissing or just coming in putting a hand around the shoulder builds trust and intimacy and that changes the sexual experience right because the sex at the end of the day is letting go it's it's a very vulnerable thing that we take play you know takes place between two people their bodies involved their naked bodies involved. There's letting go there's allowing somebody to you know touch you in certain ways so there's a lot of vulnerability there and there's a lot of loss of control. So more trust and intimacy you have with your partner the easier that will feel and the easier you will let go you know you let go of your inhibitions your fears your you know whatever you're scared of and then the sexual act will be you know much much more enjoyable and more pleasurable so for everyone out there you know and thank you so much for this woman raising this idea. If you can build something in your relationship, it is this idea of intimacy and trust and it comes from, you know, just gentle touching or showing affection to somebody. So I think one of the things you just said and I want to make a point of it and repeat it, because I think it's really important. Like you said people have one night stands and people go to sex workers as well, but sex in a relationship is very different. It's not your average okay in and out of bed, there is so much more that comes with it good stuff as well as baggage. So sex in a relationship is very different. Please everybody out there do not compare it to going to a sex worker or a one night stand or a short affair or whatever. It's a whole different ballgame. Yeah, and I think that is really important in some ways because there is you know of course people like having sex and people have one night stands and just have sex with someone and you know and and they will say oh where is all this emotion coming from. But that is the biggest thing that we try teaching younger people when it comes to porn because pornography has become so much about the physical act. But like you're saying Seema a relationship is much more you know there is so much baggage around feelings and emotions and how much you trust your partner do they show affection are you angry with them are you sad are you upset whatever it's happening in a relationship. And that is what is missing from pornography it is very physical and it doesn't really reflect relationships and how sex happens within relationships long term relationships. So yeah I think you make a really important point. And you know this thing that you said about intimacy so when lockdown started last year in March in March 2020. This was something that I did many many sessions on on just this idea you're locked in together to people in a closed space you cannot even step out for a lot of people who live in flats that wasn't even an outdoor balcony space to step out on. And most people's relationships were suffering intimacy was suffering and I was trying to explain this over and over again that intimacy is not necessarily about sex. That's not the start and end of it. It isn't even about kissing that is not the start and end of it either intimacy I was actually just trying to say to people that forget about holding hands. When you sit down to watch television, maybe just link your fingers together. It's the lightest touch I mean, I've said this forever that you know when the commerce who actually advises this that when you're trying to arouse your partner. You don't grow you don't grab you don't go for them help a letter you know straight to their genitals. The idea is to bring about the nearest that's the most basic touch that you know just that sort of feathery light one, particularly on the on the skin like on your arm even. It is so exciting because it's that little bit of it's that little thing that sort of arouses anticipation inside you. And that's the excitement, you know the anticipation. I remember reading a long time ago. There's a book by some man called the seagull who sort of translated a very academic version of the coming through where he says that a lot of the foreplay that the coming through mentions is so long drawn out that it's almost like. It's actually permanently imminent that's the word that he uses, you know that that build up that excitement that sensation. Now I know that that's not the ideal situation we don't have 100 years to just sit around being permanently in imminent in our intimacy, but it's the little things that make all the difference. You know, a hand on the upper shoulder hand on the arm and linking of the fingers a little, a little nice word, you know, darling. Yeah, sweet. And that's, and that's what I'm talking about like it's like, if someone's in the kitchen going in standing besides them putting an arm around their waist, you know, or just a peck on the cheek or like that also feels like exactly what you're saying it's. It's coming in and saying some nice words, you know, and it doesn't need to be erotic in any way it just is something that you're showing affection for. And it changes because what happens is, I know there was some a question around scheduling and things. You know, people start thinking, oh, if I go and put an arm around or if I go in case, then it will become a long ground on process and we'll have to have sex and then sex will require half an hour for females or whatever, and who has the time. And, and that's why the mistake happens because showing affection is a building block to, you know, to the relationship I wouldn't even sex is just a byproduct, it's a building, you know, building block to building a good relationship, and people feel afraid and they feel like it's public display of affection or it will lead to sex or I can't do this like I will look cheesy or something, but it is about very like feather like just, you know, the finger touching the arm, and you know just a hug saying something darling or sweet heart or anything that, you know, you know just that tingling feeling inside someone and it does these small things do arouse that tingling feeling. You know, over time I've heard from a number of women who will say that, okay, you know, we're trying to keep the intimacy going but we don't want sex all the time but there is this fear that the moment they say okay you know a little cuddle. We are in bed together a little cuddle and then I just want to go to sleep but the moment I give that cuddle. My partner is going to think that okay this is it it's time for sex now. And so a lot of them won't even do that much, you know they'll say no no I'm not going to go down this path because the moment I give them a hug, he'll want sex. So they stop doing that and gradually that becomes a habit and then gradually you pull away. So I think that's one thing that you should definitely I know that you said that already about the trust and about the building up of the thing and not always wanting to rush in. The other thing that I want you to talk about from her question is the anger that builds up so I know that over time, you know, you say okay look look at it maybe there are some deeper issues. Maybe it's something that he's feeling that he's not telling you and you have to go into the deeper issues. But reality and honest fact is that when you try a few times the anger inside you does start to build up and then suddenly you don't want to, you don't want to be making that effort. And you know these little things that we're talking about the little touches the little bit of intimacy to build things up. Suddenly it's almost like damn if I'll do it because I'm feeling so angry with him right now. And that again causes for this question I'd really. I would really want to explore the commitment that the man in the relationship is showing or his interest like I'm wondering is he interested is it something that is forced on him and he's just forcefully engaging in sex and he really doesn't want to and it's kind of like. Oh, I now need to like get over it and just do it you know and it's very mechanical and very scheduled and everything so. For me that would be one point of exploration the first point of exploration would be what is happening and how come there's lack of interest and the same things that we've spoken about before. Is it something to do with the relationship is it something to do with his physical body inability to have sex. Is it emotional like is that is he upset depressed, whatever angry is it bad. Or you know is it something else that is going on so you know exploring the areas in some ways with him to see. Is there a problem you know that we are solving for. Other than that, I do think that it is frustrating when when you can't openly talk about it you know as an I wish I think what feels troublesome here is that she is making a lot of effort. But from the other side the person is not saying okay yeah let's there's a problem let's work on it every time that she tries a suggestion it's coming like a block saying, oh I tried this I tried this you're asking for too much you know this. It's an ideal world that you're living in. Let me just put the finger in and get over with it. So I think what's coming across is that she is trying. But what's coming back is just like how do I get it over with or how do I finish this and not engage with, which can be very hurtful, you know which can be me make you feel like very dressed desperate for something and then we know what the world and society things about being desperate about sex right especially for women. Yeah, and I think one thing I'd like to say over here particularly you mentioned this thing about putting the finger in special she's dry. There's a lot of men and this is particularly guys who have this idea that if the woman is dry there will be more friction and it'll be more exciting. And I think I'd like to say to all women out there that this is one thing that you never compromise on. You never, ever go into sex without a great deal of lubrication. Trust me, when there is more lubrication, the man will last longer. I always listen to me as well on this one. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. If there is a lot of lubrication, the man will last longer and so will the woman because it won't be painful for her. It'll be more pleasurable for both of you. And more importantly, going and having sex with somebody when they're dry, the long term impact of that physically is bad because you end up with long standing abrasions which can lead to many many health problems. So dryness is a no-no at any point. Absolutely. I think it leads to a lot of scarring and tears which can be very problematic. And watch out guys, we're going to do a video with Dr. Tanaya on the vagina and there are going to be two videos on that. But one of the things that we will talk in the videos is that orgasm actually happens through the clitoris and not through the vaginal duct. And that's what a lot of people keep saying. And what you need to rub is the clitoris for an orgasm. So I don't know what they are doing. She didn't mention anything about a clitoral orgasm. She said she hasn't orgasmed in a while. But it will be way tougher and more frustrating if you're trying to get an orgasm by fingering or by penetration. Much easier if you do it through the clitoris. And to the woman out there, what I would really suggest to you is try masturbating yourself. Don't let this build up as a frustration. You can still get sexual pleasure. So try clitoral orgasm. And then maybe you can, if there are a few opportunities where you are having sex, then you can also feel pleasure even if it is yourself through clitoral orgasm. And I think on this side of fingering, I must reiterate that the Kamsutra actually says that according to Ayurveda, when you use your fingers to pleasure the woman, not to pleasure yourself, the woman uses her fingers to pleasure herself, they say that every finger has its own energy and you combine your fingers, you know, for different energies, etc. And it says very, very specifically, you never use the index finger on its own, because it just agitates, it does not give pleasure, it's too powerful. And I think a lot of men tend to do that. So guys, if you're listening out there, ladies, if you're listening, please listen to this and inform your partner about it. There's a whole list that I've actually put in one of the chapters in my book of different combinations, but I mean, you don't have to read that chapter. You know, do different combinations, put two fingers together, put three together, put all sorts of different ideas, but not that one finger on its own, because that's what a lot of people tend to do. And you were just saying about the clitoris. And yes, of course, we've got the one coming up with Dr. Cutris about vaginas. I just want to again add to that by saying that we did that other one with Habiba Kande on Habiba is the author of that book, Kunyaza, where he talks about the African idea of the African concept of female pleasure and how to bring a woman to sport. And he has a really interesting idea, which is also mentioned again in the Kama Sutra that if the orgasm is going to come via the clitoris, you don't want to penetrate all the way. A lot of women don't necessarily need that penetration all the way. Maybe you should just go that far. I mean, it says that if you actually take the penis in just the clitoris and just inside the lips of the vulva. So just inside the labia, whether the clitoris says and you knock in and out through that. That actually stimulates the clitoris and it leads to orgasms or you can also tap it and, you know, but if sex, the full-fledged idea is not comfortable or not good for you. Try it in the most shallow way possible. Don't go all the way in. Tap it on the inside. You need less lubrication. You need less penetration. You need less time. You need less everything. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think the fear that I have for this woman is that if, you know, if sex keeps happening when she doesn't feel like it or she is not aroused or it's feeling like a chore or an act, it will lead to psychological problems and it could lead to problems like vaginismus or pain while having sex and everything. So it is really important for her to take ownership. And I know this feels once again, I'm asking her to take ownership and not the man and it seems and she's already taking so much ownership. And I hear that and I understand that. But at least in some ways you're thinking about it as prevention, you know, because you don't want your personal sex life completely, you know, impacted by not doing this. So make sure you're aroused. Make sure that you are looking after yourself, thinking about ways of arousing yourself, maybe having masturbating yourself and releasing some of the frustration and the sexual energy and thinking of ways of pleasuring yourself. Because I do think, till you don't have your partner coming on board to understanding that there is a problem and that he is willing to work on the problem. It's going to be really frustrating in heart. And I don't have an answer to how you can convince your partner to see the problem. But I do empathize by how frustrating it sounds. And I know that last time you also said, which is a really important thing, that sex is a language. It has a language all of its own and it comes out in so many different ways. And anger is a very big part of that language because if you tend to react with anger, if the rest of your relationship is good, and you're thinking that you need to get past this. And as Anrita has said, try the small touches of intimacy, try and make your partner more comfortable. I know that you're sitting there thinking, but for goodness sakes, how long do I have to do this? Just remember that you're doing this for yourself. So work a little bit hard and give yourself the patience and the time to say, you know, if you were dealing with a little child, your baby who wouldn't do a particular thing and you were trying to encourage them to do it, that the amount of patience that you would put into it. Give it the same amount of patience to build up that trust that every single time you come near to hug, it won't necessarily, you won't be forcing him to have sex so that he starts to feel more comfortable and more trusting of your touch and your intimacy. But really, I mean, the best I can do is advise and say that the anger that you're feeling right now, which is making you stop and step back. Try and focus on some of the other stuff and think he did this for me. This is really nice. I appreciated that. And use that to motivate that little bit of the touch next time, you know, the building up that we're talking about. And I think the point that you made was really important because if you will build the trust, you know, that your touch is not going to mean sex. And that is just a way of your showing affection, your, you know, start with that, like maybe take sex off the table, like build on the relationship. That would be my advice to this couple. Sex is not right now the relationship needs to be worked on because there is a lot of tension and problems. So use your these these ways of showing intimacy and trust and I know he's not reciprocating and he's never kissed you and he doesn't show any intimacy, but try building on those things try talking to him. So that he feels comfortable enough to share what's going on. How come he's not interested in sex or how come, or if, if, you know, the other side of the problem could be that in his head, sex is let's schedule it. Let's go in and out, you know, I'm not interested in penetration. I'm not, you know, interested in, you know, I'm just going to finger and I'm just going to come with my own hand and everything like examples she's given. If he, if the trust and intimacy grows, then you can express that you want sex differently, and then he would be more willing to consider it right now, right now you're on two different angles. He wants sex a certain way. He just wants to do a hand job get it over with you wanted to be more full play more caressing more kisses and everything. So there's a lot there's sex right now seems very different for both of you. But the only way you can openly talk about it is if you build on the relationship. So focus should be building on the relationship and not building on the sex. Yeah, and I think articulating it and telling him specifically that. Okay, look, let's take sex off the table. I'm not going to ask you to do this but I would like a little bit of this. I think that's a starting point. I also want to say that it could be that something like this takes a very long time to fix. It could be that it doesn't get fixed. You know, we reality is if we face the truth that maybe this will never get okay. You have to understand what this means in your own life. I mean, are you able to come to some kind of compromise are you able to articulate what you want. But most importantly, are you able to shift this thing from feeling angry to trying to see what else you can feel because if you continue to feel anger about it. Honestly, that will destroy you. Yeah. And I'm like I'm saying that you know, sex, sex between partners might be off the table. But if he's willing to masturbate and you're willing to masturbate, you can still feel that sexual energy and you can still experience pleasure. And sometimes you can actually orgasm together, you know you can masturbate together like you know so there is so much that we don't understand where the discomfort or the fears come from. And even for men there is so much pressure of expectations and what they should be doing and not be doing. And we tend to not be sensitive to, you know, fear that they might be carrying or issues that they might be carrying. And just by this one act of saying, Okay, penetrations of sex is off. Let's just, you know, let's, let's just be warm and affectionate to others can really change the dynamic. Can I tell you one piece of advice I gave somebody a while ago a few years ago, and it might work. It might help. So similar kind of situation and this thing like you said that there's a lot of expectation also from the men and so sometimes it's also difficult to go and see to them. Okay, sex is off the table. Sometimes when you get to that point of anger in a relationship where neither person is listening you can't even say that. And so I'd actually said to this lady I said why don't you tell your husband that you have taken a little vow of celibacy where you said for one year. You know as part of a prayer thing like we go and do sometimes we say okay we've taken a vow. So she said go and tell him that for one year, you decided that you can't have sex because you've taken this vow. But in the meantime, can we do this. And I have to say that it worked because suddenly he didn't feel the pressure and also he wasn't receiving it with anger like, well, you know, you don't want to have sex and therefore I'm having to say let's take it off the table so it's all about the psychology. Yeah, and I'm not sure about the one year without sex but yeah, so you can change the timeline, but I think you know it seems like for this couple. What is positive is that there is already communication about sex like she has asked him she has shared with him she is saying so at least is it's very common and we speak about it often that the dynamic is so like the man's always asking about sex and the women can't even talk about sex. Here I feel like the woman feels empowered. She understands her sexuality she's able to talk about her sexuality. So just say, let's just take this off the table and you know you can say I'm doing it out of religious reason or other reasons. Let's just say let's like you know for a month start with a month start with a few weeks and just say we're going to take this off the table. But it would be nice if we can hug cuddle build on our intimacy show affection, reignite the love that was between and you know talk about those things. I certainly hope that this has been of help I know that a lot of times people write in and they feel that we have an instant solution but the thing is that the human psychology the human psyche is not an instant thing it takes years to build up a particular thought process and there are layers to be unpeeled and uncovered so start small and always try and understand the psychology behind something and then try and approach it because it's not a case of I need to open the lock I need the key. You know, and you don't have a physical key this the mental locks open with very different types of keys. They can take time they can take a lot of lateral thinking. So, I hope that this is helped and like I said, there may not be black and white solutions there may not be something we can say, do this and everything will become okay. The first thing that you need to do is to try and make this relationship less angry and less of a conflict and the moment you can put those conflicts down to rest. Other things then have a chance to stay there and build up. Yeah, and just a shout out to all couples out there work on the intimacy and trust really that is the key to relationships. People talk about other things and people always be like oh we need to focus on the sex or we need to focus on things. Any if you can build on the trust and intimacy and like Seema said, the light touches the feather touches just the hand around the shoulder just few kind words, they will change your relationship. So if you take anything from this video that's what you need to take. Absolutely so you know in passing if you want to drop a kiss on your partner's head. Drop that little light kiss and move on don't do the case and then wait there for a reaction. If you actually drop that kiss on somebody's head and move on. The first couple of times it's going to give them worked up thinking okay are you going to follow through with something and then gradually the trust starts to settle in so it really does make a difference. It has an impact. It is long term. I know I'm with us thinking that a year without sex is like, oh my God what the hell, but I'm with us sometimes it takes that long. So, we hope for better for everybody but you know, and like we've always said you know penetrative sex is not the end of the world there are other ways of lots of couples are happy with a lot of other sexual ways of being. So not defining it for anyone. Just saying that you know like pick a timeline that's been like I was just imagining they want to have sex in a few weeks and then they have this thing about like, oh I've been told God that we can have sex for a year. So I was just meaning I was like, manage the time like you can say one month and then say oh I've taken it for another month I can take it like so keep the loopholes open basically. Okay, that's that's good advice. Actually, I hope that you have found this useful and if you have any questions, we are always there to try and respond to them. If you liked the video, if you found it useful do like comment and subscribe. I am on info.seema.onan.gmail.com where we receive your questions and if you need to seek Anrita out for counseling session or a therapy session, she is on. Anrita.medanbehel.gmail.com and all the info is below in the text. And in the meantime, stay safe, stay healthy, stay mentally stable and happy, try and manage that as best as you can. And we will see you over here again very soon.