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We got 25% off at-home gym accessories, 30% off all shirts and sweatshirts, 35% off all hats, 50% off our mirror drinkware, and 60% off all maps, teas. Just go to mindpumpstore.com for that stuff right there. In this Mind Pump episode, we actually interview one of our listeners, one of our fans. She won a contest to come up on the show, and what we didn't know was this person was extremely accomplished and very, very interesting. Her name is Helen Lin. She's a personal trainer with some incredible accomplishments. You won't believe the stuff you hear in this episode. She's a badass. We have a lot of fun talking to her in this episode. Now, we did talk about some of her favorite supplements, so she did mention Organifi, which is one of our sponsors. By the way, you can get 20% off all the products if you use the code Mind Pump at Organifi.com forward slash Mind Pump. We also brought up Zbiotics, which is a product you take before you drink alcohol to prevent the negative effects from alcohol. Now, she doesn't really drink, but we did bring it up. And, of course, Adam and Justin piped up because they do love to drink, and you get a discount with Zbiotics as well. So just go to Zbiotics.com forward slash Mind Pump for 10% off your first order. Now, if you want to learn more about Helen, go check her out at HappyHelenFitness.com. But we do think you're going to love this episode. It's always fun to talk to our fans. It's even more fun and exciting when they're surprisingly more fit and accomplished than the hosts of Mind Pump. So we know you're going to enjoy this episode. Helen, welcome to Mind Pump Studio. Yeah. So you were the person that won the contest. The big winner. The big winner. So I have a question for you. You got to be honest. Okay. Okay, so who's your least favorite host? Yeah, we got to start low. Why is it Adam? Whatever, Sal. She just took the pressure off of you. Totally. So how long you've been listening to the show? How did you enter into the contest? What happened? I've been listening to the show probably about two years and then I saw the contest on, maybe you guys sent an email, someone sent out an email or maybe I was on the forum, probably a little bit of both. And I thought, yeah, I want that. Yeah. Who wins contest in their adult age? I know, right? I feel like they're fake half the time. Yeah, well, that's the fake. Now, you're like extremely accomplished. So we get this bio from our assistant, right? Because you're coming in and we want to have you on the podcast. That's part of the contest. We want to know what we're in for. And it's like, yeah, let's get to know you a little bit. And I'm being totally honest. All of us felt insecure. She had to give us multiple sheets. One sheet wasn't enough for it. Yeah, it was actually like some heavy reading to get through all of this. Yeah, you're a badass. How did you get into fitness or athletic competition? Because I don't want to give it all the way yet, but there's some stuff on there that's pretty crazy. Yes, there are crazy things. How did I get started in fitness in general? Yeah. Well, I guess that goes, I mean, it starts back from, I was a swimmer. I started as a swimmer. At what age, really young? 15, which isn't actually that young because by the time I was 15 and I joined swim team, everyone was swimming at nationals and I was just learning to swim. So at the time, I didn't feel that young, but obviously it feels young now. But I joined a swim team, loved it. And that's, I guess, where it started in terms of my love for athletic pursuits. But I just thought, I didn't realize, I wouldn't call myself an athlete, I just was a swimmer. Now were you competitive right out the gates? Yeah, that's what I want to know. Oh yeah, I did club swim team. But no, I was never, I wasn't any good, but I made it for enthusiasm. That was my thing. So like in high school, they always gave me the most inspirational award, right? Versa, you know, like instead of the MVP, it was, well, you were really looking like a clown on the side cheering, but we'll give you that reward, you know? So that was my thing, you know? Great attitude. Yeah, the great attitude award. That's very, that's very humble of you. Now, were you though competitive with yourself? So maybe you weren't, you know, you weren't as much competitive as far as feeling like you were the MVP, but were you the type that's very competitive with yourself? Oh, I mean, being an Asian, you know, growing up with strict family in which you're supposed to be a doctor or lawyer, I was none of those things, was not interested in math and science at all. So I think it kind of funneled itself into athletic pursuits. So that meant I had to be the best. But the problem is it's really hard to be the best, but you don't know that as a young kid because you're taught that, you know, you can do anything you want and you can be the best. So yes, so I was very competitive with myself in the sense that I wanted to be number one, but I really didn't know how to get there. So I think that's probably why I ended up doing so many different types of activities later in life, because I think I switched things when I think, well, maybe this one is the one I'm gonna be the best in. Well, tell me a little bit more about, that's interesting, like the pressure as a kid to, you know, go down the lawyer or doctor route and then you push back, what was that like? I mean, was there a lot of like rift between you and your parents early on? And then they, at what point did they accept the direction you were gonna do? What was, what has that been like for you? I'm not sure they've ever accepted, but growing up, I didn't get into an Ivy League school. That's one you're supposed to get an Ivy League school. Strike one, yep. Just Boston University, no big deal. That's it, yeah, yeah. Didn't get an Ivy League. You know, I got A's and B's, not good, you know, gotta get all A's. And I was interested in theater, terrible. Oh my gosh, my family, you know, did not like that either. And they weren't really particular in love with the athletic stuff either, so I just, so I think I just completely rebelled. And as I got older, I just decided to do all the things that they didn't really want me to do. So I think some of this is like, rebelling and like, no, I'm not gonna enjoy studying. You're super punk rock. This is, this is fascinating. So, because I have young kids and so these guys, so the way you rebelled was to just be good at sports and get A's and B's. Damn, I gotta meet your parents. You know what I'm saying, most kids rebelled, they do drugs or, you know, they go, they get pregnant, they get old goss and crazy. Yeah, but it's like trying to, I think in the back of your subconsciously you want that validation. Because I know all my sports, athletic pursuits were all for validation. I was all trying to find some of the self-worth that, you know, I didn't get from my family because I never did those specific things. So I think in my back of subconsciously, I thought if I was best at this thing it would win their approval. But they never gave their approval really. So I think I just, you know, as an adult, you just have to make peace with these things. So you just continued kicking ass. You just continued kicking ass and all these different pursuits. What was the next one that followed up swimming? What was your? Yeah, so it was swimming. So swimming has been a huge part of my life for good, I don't know, probably 15 years. So regular stuff, like you were a swimmer too, right? No, I was never on a team. I was just good at it. The first time I got, it looks like a swimmer. Yeah, well, it wasn't until, no, this was not until, and again, this isn't about me, right? But I'd be like, I'm not a model. I'm just handsome. I was just being like a swimmer with a lab. Listen, Linda, listen, okay? When I was 25 in the middle of like being a big meathead guy, I was like 230 pounds at this time. We had this thing at 24 Fitness where all the managers and the company got together and they had like this little like triathlon, but it was like an indoor swimming, biking, running type of competition. And so, and they grouped us all up and somebody said, I'll take the bike, I'll take the run. And I just got kind of thrown into the pool and I was like, okay, that's cool because I always like to swim as a kid. I was born on the lake and doing things like that. And when I was a kid racing around, I was pretty quick. So let's see, why was racing against a former Ironman and then a former Navy SEAL guy and I whooped him. And I was like, I was not in like swimming shape at all. And that was like the first time I had realized like, oh, maybe I'm like, would have been good at this. And so I never really slammed though competitively. I just, I think I was built for it. I got narrow waist, skinny legs and then a big wide back. So you went into bodybuilding. Yeah, the worst. Yeah, well, like you, I do the opposite of what everybody thinks I should do. Right, exactly. So Helen, so did you, in terms of that, when did you start to notice the benefits for yourself? I'll be, you're saying you're doing it because you wanted some validation, but at some, cause I started working out because I was insecure. But the side effect of that was I started to really notice the benefits for, you know, feeling confident, you know, learning about hard work and effort and all the wonderful benefits you get from fitness. Did you start to pick up on that as well? Did it make you feel good? Was this something that kind of molded you? Not when I was that young. Yeah, cause when I started as a, yes, later in life for sure, probably when I got to the rock climbing part of my life, then yes, that's when I actually care about fitness. So I started with swimming as a kid. And then when I went to college, I was too slow to swim in college. So I just did theater. And then after college, I started picking up swimming again and did, I mean, master swimming is just 18 and up. It sounds impressive, but it just means you're an adult and they call you masters. So we did master swimming and I did all the competitions there, you know. And then I started doing open water swimming. So that's just when you swim out in the ocean or lake or whatever. So no lane lines. Which is way harder. Well, you can't see the bottom, you know, if you're afraid of sharks, all that stuff. So I started doing open water swimming because I was getting bored with doing like every competition pool swimming under the sun. So I wanted something else. So I introduced me to open water swimming and I started doing open water swimming and then probably there was this one summer, I came to California a lot cause I did every open water race there was over here because you guys have great oceans and races. So I did something like 18 races in like 12 weeks or something. I just like flew back and forth, winning Boston in here and just did like, you know, I did Alcatraz, Golden Eight Bridge, all that stuff. And then I was like, well, what do I do now? Like I did all these races. So then I started doing a marathon swimming. This all leads to the fitness, I promise. I started doing marathon swimming, which you swim over 10 miles, over 6.2 miles of marathon swimming. So that's when you swim in the open water for over a certain amount of distance. That's terrifying to me. Just to think you're swimming for that, how long are you in the water for? Well, at least minimally probably around three hours or more or more. Usually that's the shorter end of it. So you're swimming for three hours in open water. Did you have any seaweed, tickle your legs? Oh yeah, I mean you run into all sorts of stuff when you're swimming. It's part of the joy, you know. That made me go fast. Yeah, I know. I can't imagine you dog paddling for three hours. I can't either. I've done three minutes. So I read in your bio that you competed in these like super cold water. What is that? Yeah, so after the marathon swims in which I did a few of those, I was like, well, what's next? So then I started doing, I didn't wanna stop swimming in the wintertime because I was just feeling very stubborn. And so I thought to myself, summer's not over if I just keep swimming in the ocean and I live in Boston. And as it got colder, I just kept swimming. And next thing I knew it was like February and I was snowing and I was still going out there and my body was acclimating to the cold. Like you guys know, your body can acclimate to anything and I just kind of rode the temperature down as the water temperature came down. And next thing I knew, I was swimming in the middle of winter and found out there's a whole community of people who do ice swimming, a lot in Russia and Sweden and other countries. Yeah, crazy people in China. But yeah, the ice swimming is- The polar bear crew. Well, that's the thing we make fun of them because it's not a polar plunge. We're actually swimming. Uh-huh. Yeah, so we're big snogs. We're big snogs about it. Only idiots would say that. No plunges and also no wetsuits. Wow. Okay, so that's the thing. We're purists, right? You have to swim with English Channel rules, which is when you swim the English Channel rules, you swim only swim cap goggles and bathing suit. Nothing else, no assistance. Hard core. Yeah, yeah, so that's the polar rules. Okay, so what is driving you at this point? Is this pure rebellion right now? Or because you're saying that you're not very good at it, but that you're doing all these competitions, you're getting crazier and crazier levels of it. What is it that's the driving force of this at this time? Yeah, I'm not, it's a great question. Well, the driving force is wanting to stand out, I think, because I wasn't good enough for any of these things. I just did them. For me, it was the act. Like marathon swims is great because you just had to finish them. In competition, you have to be the fastest. You have to be the strongest. You have to, you know, those kind of things, but in these weird things I do, you just have to do it and not die. And it's a miracle, right? It's such a relief. Right, so like just the act of doing it is good enough. So I think that's what I was doing, I was trying to find. And I mean, honestly, the rush of, you guys know, like you did the ice bath thing. The rush afterwards feels amazing from an ice swim. So after all the shakes are gone, it feels like endorphins rushing. So there's definitely an endorphin for addiction, for sure, for some of these niche things. But the ice swimming, for sure, there's a thing called an ice mile, which is you swim one mile under 41 degree temperature. Did you do that? Yeah, if you do it, you get a red jacket and you get to be part of this club. So you did that? Yeah. What is that? That's pretty cool. Hold on a second. What does that feel like? Because I've done ice dips in temperature water like that. Yeah. And this is the truth now. If I go beyond two minutes, I'm like super proud of myself. Yeah, because it's endurance, but how do you breathe and manage that? Because, you know, you're tensing up so much. Well, I mean, you know, it's you just, I mean, I trained for it for, you know, a few months, but you just keep going out as it gets colder, but watching your time and making sure you're not staying in too long. And obviously having people watch you and whatnot, but you just, it's just constant exposure and pushing it a little bit longer at a time. It's very dangerous, don't get me wrong. But I mean, it took me 33 minutes. So I was in the water for about 33 minutes to do a mile at that temperature and you come out and they wrap you up in blankets all right and you shiver for like 15 minutes and then you're fine. Wow. So it seems like your superpower that you might, no, I mean, seriously, because it looks like you were searching for your superpower and it looks like you discovered that it was tenacity. Am I correct? I don't know, maybe. Like you just go after it and you go when you do it? I just go and do it. You're right, I just go out and I do it because worse, I mean, no one else, not a lot of people are. So you kind of... So we're, yeah, we're doing, okay, so now we're doing, now we're moving on to crazy swimming. Okay, what comes next? Well, hold on, before you say that, I want to ask you about this, Helen. You probably, you'll definitely know more than I will. I read somewhere that one of the sports where women compete directly against men and oftentimes beat them is an endurance swimming or cold swimming in particular. Is this true? I mean, from what I read and also from the community, it seems true because, I mean, there's a lot of guys as well, but for sure the endurance, I don't know, I mean, maybe we store fat in certain places that really help protect the organ so we can stay out there longer. But yeah, so I was, I mean, I don't know, who knows, I don't really know. I just, I really enjoy the rush is all I can say. Yeah, because I remember reading somewhere that this woman broke the world record and it was all, it was both genders, right? And she crushed it. And then in the article, they said that women seem to perform really well, period, in these kinds of sports. So when you're competing, are you, is it, is it just open or is it just women, just men? Do they put everybody together? Well, in something like an ice mile, it's not a race. You literally just do it and complete it. It's all about completion. So you do it and that's it. Yeah, just because it's so dangerous that you just need to get the right temperature and be able to finish it because we've watched people finish unconsciously and it'd be taken to the hospital. What? Yeah, because it's that, because it's hypothermia. Are they following you with like a little boat? Yeah, so there's, there's boat and all that stuff and also your mind, I haven't experienced it, but you can just black out and keep swimming. What? Yeah, yeah. So you're gonna keep your head above the water the whole time? No, no, you can't. Oh my God. Yes, I read a study on that actually. You can't breathe underwater. Yeah, really? Even with a snorkel though. Yeah, so if the faster you are, the better because you can generate more heat and also get out of the water sooner, right? But if you're slow, then maybe having a little more body fat will help too. So it kind of, you know, individual. Now is it common that in almost every one of these races someone's getting pulled out of the water because they don't make it or block out? Well, I mean, again, in terms of ice mouth, it's not a day like set race. You just, it's like swimming. Well, maybe you swimming the English Channel. I don't know if you guys know. If you swim the English Channel, it's not like a race day. You pick, you have to hire a boat and they have tides and you have to just go with the tides. And so you just kind of wait for your window of tide for English Channel. And with the ice mouth, you kind of just, you have to just plan that day and go. There's no race. And so you just have to have an observer and staff and then you complete it under these specific rules and submit to an organization that, you know, deems it that you follow all the rules. So yeah, so it's not a race day. They would never organize something like that. I think cause it's just too dangerous for people to try and make it that competitive because you just want to finish. Now are you using, are you lifting weights as part of your training for swimming at this point or was that something that happened after? No, I was pure cardio for the first 20 years of my life and then pure endurance. Okay, so that was, that's very important. The first half of my life, I was like cardio, swimming, endurance, crazy ice things. And then no lifting at all, no strength training, whatsoever, nothing. When did you discover that? So then at one point, I was having a swimmer crisis or identity crisis or something which people were like, this is Helen, she's that crazy swimmer or a crazy ice swimmer. And I just, my identity was always known as just a swimmer because that's all I've been doing. I was on swimming boards. I travel, all these races are so involved that this is just all consuming of my life, which I love. But I don't know what happened one day. I woke up and was like, oh my God, is this all I am just a swimmer? Am I nothing else? Am I an athlete? Am I the person that didn't go to Harvard? Like who am I? Am I just a swimmer? So I was having this identity crisis. So then I started to on a whim, try rock climbing. And I found out that I had really strong lats maybe from the swimming. Oh, for sure. Yeah, so I was just really good at rock climbing with upper body strength. So I was completely shocked that I just did some rock climbing and I could do a bunch of pull-ups. And I was like, this is amazing. I could never do pull-ups before. So I had some naturally strong lats, I guess, from the swimming and that's when the rock climbing started. And when you rock climb, you have to really be fit. Like swimming, you can be, you can eat unhealthy. You don't have to weigh a certain way. You can be fast swimmer and be different body shapes or most obviously we're not talking about elite level. Which I'm not really a people. But with rock climbing, you had to be fit. People had muscles. When I started rock climbing, I realized people had muscles. Swimming, people didn't have muscles. I mean, not, again, not elite level, but like especially marathon swims. If you ever see a group of marathon swimmers, you would be like those people work out. But just the body shape of the people who do marathon swimming. But yeah, when I started rock climbing, I was like, wow, people look amazing. They have muscles, they have definition. They probably eat, right? You have to hold your whole body way up with your finger. Yeah, I was gonna say, because some body fat in the water can actually make you a little bit more buoyant. But in rock climbing, it's just weight, right? It's hard to pull yourself up in your head. No advantage there. No advantage. Did that appeal to you, like seeing that going like, oh, wow, they're all really strong. And is this what led you to the gym? Yes, well, so I once, well, so I started climbing and I was developing muscles and I was like, oh, cool, like these things, this is great. And I think, because I was already trying to find a new identity anyway, so I really thought that was really cool and it seemed cool to have muscles. And I wanted to be a better climber, so I really wanted to develop some more strength to complement that. And I think this is also around the time. So I started lifting weights and not knowing what I was doing, doing the whole body split thing and looking at, reading every article under the sun, probably under bodybuilding.com. Oh, I was gonna ask you so. So you got your information from the bodybuilding websites on how to work out. That's all right, we all started there. I copied so many workouts. Well, also the other thing is, this is very funny at the time, I was like, I want a six pack, right? Like everyone, but not like the bodybuilder six pack in women that has the six. You wanted a vein. Yes, I want like the 5% but I didn't know that that was, I didn't understand the things I understand now how ridiculous that really is. But at the time I was new to fitness, I was new to being climber and I just thought and I had the mentality of, well, if you put your mind to it, you can do anything. So I was like, I'm going to get the six pack and I think that's also part of the reason why I ended up asking you for help, Sal. Yes. For a lot of things because I was just focused on looking a certain way because it just looked cool on the wall too. So that was when I was like, I want to look a certain way. I want to get a six pack and everyone's going to think I'm amazing because I have a six pack. Now are you competing in rock climbing or is this just for fun and is it indoor or outdoor? It's never for fun. It's always for competition. With you and I can, I'm getting that just now. Yeah, no. So I did a lot of competitions because that's what I do. I go in, I do competitions and I cried at every single one of them because with rock climbing competitions it's very subjective with rock climbing. Have you guys ever climbed rock climb? Any of you? No, I stepped up to curve a couple times. Yeah, like boulders. Could you imagine him climbing a rock? Get the fuck out of you. That's why I didn't stay long. Give him those short little stubby paws and those big old cakes. There's no way he's climbing a rock. I'm not a climber body. He pulls the rock down. Yeah, I do climb a lot though with my boys but it's nothing like, you know, what you're talking about. So what does a competition look like? Is it just for time? Like who can get up to the top first? Yeah, I mean, so in rock climbing competitions you have to hit a certain amount of boulders that was worth a certain amount of points and then they kind of do that. But the thing with rock climbing is that everything's subjective. So swimming is great because you can be the fastest or the slowest. There's a time. Rock climbing, you can argue about who's the best rock climber because every climb is different. Right, the path they take, right? Yeah, the problem, the way you solve it, the route, and your body type, right? If you and I went rock climbing we have very different beta which is kind of the road map to how you climb it. So like if Adam climbs something he might be able to just reach something whereas I have to get my feet up and do a whole thing but I'm shorter and more flexible so that might help. So like how you do it is dependent on that person but how that person sets the problem is all dependent on the setter, right? So everything's subjective so it's kind of hard to measure who's a good rock climber. I mean, obviously you can tell people's loveability but in terms of how do you judge who's the best on a competition? Now that's got to be frustrating. Yes. That's like bodybuilding, you know? That's one of those things. Subjective. Yeah, it's so hard. Like, wait a second, that's not fair. Right, so I cried after everyone because again I was trying to be the best of something and I couldn't and even though I would win I would still cry because I didn't understand how, what that meant and if I didn't win I would cry. I think my boyfriend was just like stop doing these competition. This is so emotional. Yeah, this is supposed to be fun and I was like, I don't know what having fun is. I just have to do these things and be competitive, right? So that was miserable. That was the strength training helping you when you started doing it? It was for sure. I remember asking you on a DM I was like, should I climb or lift weights first? And you were like, just do whatever's priority first. And I was like, okay, I think it's climbing. So I would climb first and I'll lift like that afternoon. I don't really know because I don't think it got me that six pack no matter what I did that I kept trying to go for but I mean, I think as you guys know if you want to be better at the sport you just have to do things in that sport. Like no supplement things are going to make that huge amount. It helps like maybe if you're really weak but I didn't find lifting itself benefit your finger strength. You know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff. Not so much. Not as much as the actual rock climbing itself. Right. But I enjoyed lifting and made me feel good and strong. So I enjoy the feeling. Well, the type of grip strength you need for rock climbing is quite specific to rock climbing. There's definitely general hand strength but like if I for example were to hold on to a barbell or squeeze a squeeze test against a high level rock climber I would probably do pretty well but hanging off of rocks grabbing different positions using the fingertips the way you guys do I would I would get killed. It's a totally different kind of strength stamina and you need a certain level of toughness and correct me if I'm wrong in your fingers because you know, like I said, I can hold the heavy barbell but if I put my fingertips on something to try and squeeze if the pain makes me like go because I just I don't have the toughness on my finger to get super connected to your body though. I'm sure like carry over. Yeah, for that going into weightlifting for sure. So yeah, it's all finger strength and through your toes as well and also keeping core tension when you're doing an upside down overhang as we call it. But I mean, it's it's it's really fun and it's great but the thing with rock climbing is also you have to use your brain a lot. So you have to solve it's a puzzle. Yeah, look at a climb you have to solve it to see how to get up it doing this move doing that. So a lot of people like it because it's using your brain. It's cerebral too. Exactly. And I didn't love that. Any favorite. I just wanted to work out any of your favorite any favorite climbs that you've done any notable ones. No, well, so I'm a boulder. So I don't do any rope climb my friends make fun of me but I am a pure boulder and the reason for this is so bouldering for people don't know is basically you just climb as high as you're willing to fall. So that means you're climbing small rocks which could be like 10. I mean, there are some high boulders 10 to 15 feet maybe even 20 and then you just jump down onto a crash pad if you're outside. Oh, yeah, yeah, a castle rock. They do that. Yeah, all the time over here. Yeah, so I don't do ropes. So with ropes, it's endurance. So the moves are a little bit less difficult but you have a lot of forearm endurance. Is there more explosivity though and some of those moves with the bouldering? I've seen the bouldering. I like because it's like five really hard moves. So you got to think it's more like fast twitch strength and explosive movements versus rope climbing is like, you know, endurance. Oh, interesting. So that's why I really love bouldering because I've been doing endurance stuff all my life. So so different. Yes. Oh, very cool. Yes. Now, did you go from there to the Olympic lifting or did you go from there to the Ninja Warrior? So with rock climbing, I started climbing and I realized, oh, yeah, I'm kind of relatively good at this and I've always been fan of American Ninja Warrior who isn't and I as I did more rock climbing I could see how that related to Ninja Warrior and I was like, I wonder if I can do that. And so I just went to a local Ninja gym. There was one near my house and I just went to an adult class and that, you know, and I realized I had some good upper body strength. So and then I just started training at that Ninja gym and when you go to a Ninja gym most people on there have applied for the show or been on the show. So you're already kind of in the community. So people really, you know, encourage you to apply for the show. So that's what I did. So then I just apply for the show. I don't know, two years into probably climbing and ninjaing at the gym. I mean, every ninja cross trains with climbing. So because of course I've seen it in the smoke bombs. Wrong Ninja. Yeah. What's the application process look like? Oh, yeah. It's very I tell everyone everyone should do this. This is not difficult. You literally just go on their website. It's like a six page application. You fill information. You tell your story. It's about your story and you submit a video two to three minutes long. So that's the main thing is that you really want to I mean, it's for a TV show. You kind of really want to sell yourself and make yourself seem interesting. Thank you for the show because here's the thing. If you're a guy, there are so many jacked looking fit dude with upper body strength. So many. So how do you stand out in the video now? In terms of the actual course? Yeah, actually. Isn't it like there's there's a bit of disadvantage for people that are a little bit shorter? Yes. How was that in terms of like like navigating through that? It's much harder. I mean, I had to be much more explosive, which I was not at the time, but I was never, you know, explosive athlete by any means, especially in climate is very static. But yeah, no, so it's much harder and you had to really my biggest thing was training. Ninja was working on explosive movements, jumping high, jumping over that kind of stuff, imbalance agility or agility, that agility as well because I had good upper body, but in the beginning, a lot of it is agility and an explosive. Now, are you doing a competition first? And then if you do well, then you're on TV or is it right away? You're on the TV. Nope. You're right away on the TV. So you apply for the show and then they just call you if they pick you. Wow. That's it. How did you do? I fell on the balance obstacle, the agility, of course. And yeah, I was very excited by this because I just, when you're a rookie, they call you a rookie if you've never been on the show and they, you're just hoping you don't fall in the first obstacle. That's all you're like, don't fall on first obstacle. Don't trip on the way to first obstacle. That would be me. Yeah. And here we are, sell the step he fell. All right, next guy. Well, you only get one shot and you don't know what the course is before you go. So you have to just train for a variety of skillset and just hope that, I mean, just know that's going to transfer that. Now, when you got up there and you had already done all the training and you finally get to see where you like, fuck, or where you like, okay, I like this. Well, we knew the first obstacle is going to be the quad steps. So we always knew that. So I was like, I can do the quad steps because we had trained when you're in the community, like some guy had built quad steps in his backyard and replica. So we, I drove to like Connecticut and just we practice on his quad steps. David Campbell has that up in in Scott's Valley here. So yeah, he has got his own little course and everything. But that's yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Now at this time, are you are you listening to our show at this time? Yes, right. So right around then, yes, for sure, because that's when this 2018 was a ninja warrior and that's also around the time when I got coaching from you and Jessica. Yeah. Yeah. So it was around that time that this was all in my fitness that that's when all fitness started happening. I started eating better and caring about nutrition and lifting weights and listening to mind pump and, you know, all it meshing together into one group. It's an awesome journey. It really is. And your journey is although it's spectacular and it happened pretty quickly. If someone sticks to it long enough, we all kind of go through that same journey. We find one thing. Yours was endurance. And we push that and then you learn that there's another element that might bring you some value and then that teaches you a few other things and the longer you do it, the more I guess the better you get in the sense that you start to really learn about yourself and figure things out and piece things together and every piece of the puzzle makes a big difference, doesn't it? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. When did the Olympic lifting come in? So after I did Ninja Warrior, I was, you know, once again, wondering what's next for me and for a lot of people, they try again for Ninja Warrior and they're like, that was amazing. Now I want to finish and hit the buzzer. You're like, I'm over it. Well, for me, I was like, how am I ever going to be better? That's the thing. I was like, I made it through obstacles. Yes. Like, I'm never going to be any better. So like, you kind of actually feel like, oh, God, what do I do now? So, so I was looking for something else that gets the adrenaline going again and I was and I tried a whole bunch of stuff. Couldn't really figure out what excited me and then of course, I'm sorry to say I went to, I tried a month of CrossFit. Oh, okay. Hey, listen, listen, we need to apologize. Listen, you are rebellious. I am. You are rebellious. I don't know what made me decide. I did like three workouts of theirs. You know, I tried a month, even though I've heard you guys talk and I do agree with all these things, but I was just bored and it was something different. Actually, if CrossFit suitable for anybody, it would be someone like, I was just going to say, I just say, you're the right type of person. I think to get involved in it. Exactly. So, so what was your experience like? What did you, why did you not like it? I did not like it at all because I have the same thought. I was like, I'm going to hurt myself. I have no idea what I'm doing with the Olympic lifts. That was biggest thing. Intuition. You know, I did like smart, even though you didn't go to Harvard. Do you hear that mom and dad? That's an A plus. Yeah, we would run a mile and then I have to lift and do us, you know, power clean and no idea what I was doing. And I was like, I'm going to hurt myself. So then what I did, because knowing that probably hurt myself, I was like, I need someone to teach me Olympic lifting. So that's how I started Olympic lifting is I started looking for Olympic lifting team or coach that could teach me just Olympic lifting. And I like that much. I like lifting weights part. I didn't like the cardio part. I like lifting weights because I've done cardio in my life. So well, aren't you finding? I mean, Olympic lifts are so difficult and new ones. They're technical. It's a skill. So hard. And I love that because it's it looks so simple, but it's super difficult. And I like that. It was not subjective. You know, you either lift the weights or you don't. There's a number. You know, it's not, you know, it's very objective and you're only practicing limited movements. Now, now are you is this currently the main focus for you right now? Yes, that is my currently my my current focus is Olympic lifting and you're competing in it. Yes, and I'm competing. OK, so how many competitions have you done and what do they like? I've done it's been about two years. So almost three years. It's been great. I love it. It's it's a lot of fun. Just like every other sport that I've done. You get into it. You meet. It's funny because now I've done a few hobbies or whatever. Every time I go into a sport, everyone thinks that that sport like you meet people and they're like, oh, isn't Olympic lifting the greatest? Oh, isn't rock climbing the greatest? Oh, I love it. You know, everyone thinks that the camps everyone thinks is the greatest and everyone is like I've grown so much from it. I have made lifelong friends and I feel that way about every sport I've done. So it's just like the rest. It's awesome. It's rewarding. I love it. And I really like lifting weights. So that was the thing is that I love lifting weights. I like the feeling of feeling strong. Yeah, this is such a great conversation because we have so many listeners that are kind of starting on their fitness journeys or are in the middle of it and asking someone like you some of these questions is so good. So I want to ask you. Let's start with nutrition. Okay. What part one thing of nutrition that you changed or what was very pivotal for you because there's a lot of changes you can make with nutrition. Like, oh, I'm watching my calories. Oh, I'm working with my carbs, fats. Oh, I'm increasing my protein. Was there one thing that you did where you were like, wow, this made a big difference. Yeah, actually. So, I mean, so about two years ago, I also, during this time when I cared so much about what I look like, I started looking for coaches to train me to make me look a certain way. And one of them was you. Sal, you and Jess coached me for about three months and I really just wanted to have this rip in six pack that is so unrealistic. And also, I think genetically it's just, you know, anyways, but I didn't know that at the time. So, and so I really wanted someone to tell me all these things. Like it's like you hire a coach and you think they're just going to give me the magical formula that suddenly I'm going to just look shredded and it's going to be gray and you know, just something I was missing. But that was not the case. So you guys really, and I've had other nutritional coaches or other different types of coaches including a bodybuilding coach who just made me eat chicken and rice all day. And I lasted for like three days. That didn't work. So I tried all these different things and then when I came to you guys, who I also said, I want to look a certain way. You were just like, let's focus on health. And I was like, no, I want to look good. So, but at the time, the thing is intuitive eating and intuitive eating meaning, you know, I'll eat something and Jessica will be like, how did you feel afterwards? And I would say, Oh, I feel a little bloated. Am I not supposed to feel until I got coaching from you guys. I always felt bloated most of my life when I ate anything and I thought that was normal. I thought it was just, I just ate too much. But it turns out, I think it was the foods I was eating and she brought light to that. So that was really, really awesome from both of you to realize that kind of listening to your body sometime works the best instead of following a very specific protocol of what you think you're supposed to do. Yeah, people don't realize that when you're eating foods that don't work with your body even if it's the right macros, you're going to lose reduced performance. It's going to be harder to burn body fat, harder to build muscle. You're not going to get good sleep. Hormones are not going to be affected as well. It's an important thing to pay attention to. Yeah. So the intuitive eating was really helpful and also not and the intuitive part also not feeling restricted was very important because for me psychologically someone who gives me specific macros I feel restricted and want to rebel against it and eat everything in sight versus this you told me just eat whatever you want just but just not processed then it kind of it's a psychological thing and suddenly I'm eating better if I'm told to just not eat a bunch of crap I guess versus you have to eat 100 you know, grams of protein or something like that. Oh cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was very helpful. Now you're also you're also a coach and trainer yourself so and been listening to the show in time been coached by sound just go what do you find yourself repeating that we say a lot? Like what are the things like that as a coach yourself you're like oh my God the guys are so right. I always have to say this what do you find the most common you're having to say to your clients? To focus on health instead of aesthetics. Yeah. That is the biggest one for sure that I'm always trying to help my clients with which is it's a process for sure because everyone wants to look good so it's hard. It's hard to sell health as funny as that sounds. It's like oh yeah, healthy that's nice. I want to look good though. You know what I mean? It's like okay if you're healthy you'll look good you have to really sell it in a way that's appealing otherwise you'll lose the battle and also selling to people oh you should eat more instead of less That's very I don't know I've also posted on 4 in the past asking people how do they sell that and I don't know anyone had a magical how do you guys sell well if you eat less I mean eat more it's going to benefit your metabolism. Yes, you have to hit you have to hit the points that they are they find most important. So if someone wants to lose body fat and you want to tell them to eat more then you got to sell the metabolism boosting effects the calorie burning effects from the faster metabolism the fact that makes fat loss easier I always sell them on the things that they like the most right? So if I have somebody who's a wine drinker or they enjoy like a burger right now whatever food they like I always you know give them the ratio of that calorie wise of where they're at right now metabolism wise like right now you eat anything more than 1600 calories you put on weight and you love to have these two glasses of wine that's the reason why that kills you so much over the scale yeah the reason why that tips you over so bad is because that's like 30% of your calorie intake if we could get your calorie intake of 2500 you can enjoy these things in your life every once in a while and not put on body fat yeah build your your body have build your metabolism up so you can enjoy those things that you love so much now Helen I remember when I coached you you had also used a lot of the products and stuff that we talk about on the show now we're supposed to mention our sponsor today Organifi I don't know what you're going to say so this is all real and honest have you used any of their products and have you found any value in any of their products yeah I got the green juice and because Adam kept talking about this green juice and I saw it on sale somewhere so I was like okay score and I I'll I will admit I haven't felt any specific effects but sometimes it's it feels good to just take some if I'm lacking some veggies in my day but that's how I use it yeah so I just been doing that or if I'm traveling or something like that but I just got some samples of the the pure yes yeah I mean that's what we fueled up yeah before the pod did you guys notice a mental clarity you know definitely yeah I do notice a little bit it's not like caffeine like you don't take it and you feel it kick in like caffeine but I'll drink it and then I'll just feel very subtle I'll feel a little bit more sharp well most new tropics like I just don't have a good response from and this is just one of those yeah I think it's to each person's individual in terms of like how you know they do well with what's in there so but yeah this is a great one for me yeah I think if anybody takes a supplement expecting it you're going to be super disappointed along the lines of supplements I am I am curious regardless of organized commercial so that is like protein is protein something that you hit on a regular basis pretty easily or is that something that you tend to have to supplement I do I do have to supplement usually away protein of some sort yeah yeah so I do that do you find that with clients to I mean do you find my God yes right I tell everyone a crazy amount of number for protein to hit just because no one ever hits it so I figure if I tell them higher they'll hit a little bit more there's that psychologist yes you're a great trainer yeah but they still don't hit it half the time anyways but yeah it that's protein is by far I was just having that exact conversation with somebody I think was in our former on our page or DMs or something and they're saying like because I recommend one to one and the reason why I recommend one to one is because I know if they hit point the if they hit point six to point eight is where I want them to be with the reality is if I give them that goal they fall short of that so I give them one to one knowing that most people you know you know it's funny in my family because we we run on Italian time I don't know if you've heard of this before but essentially if someone says dinners at six nobody shows up at six it's usually seven right so if you show up at six you're the only one there so you'll tell people in earlier time yeah so it's like the same thing yeah it's it starts at five and everybody will show up on time yeah at six o'clock yeah I just think that's one of the hardest macros to hit and I think focusing on that it's satiating it's hard I mean even if even a hundred grams of protein you know if you're a hundred and thirty pound female try to eat a hundred grams of how many chicken breasts is that Adam how many like say three and a half yeah throughout the day and you're just you just start to get really full this is why protein helps people lose weight it just fills you up it's just hard for the prepping of it right I think that's I think the main reason is that it's at least for me as a coach and trainers like I most people just you know don't realize like oh wow if I'm going to do that meat is the main source you're going to get that I mean what you're getting from from nuts and other sources like are just not high enough to hit those numbers so really it's like most people have to realize like oh wow I need to make sure that at least three or four meals have a large portion of meat in it and just not the average person does that like carbs are so readily available and easy when they're hungry it's just oh let me grab some pretzles or grab some snacks or this or that and then your your calories are filled up with all these carbohydrates and you never hit your protein now you mentioned that before this all started that you're doing this at home like so you're doing in-home appointments with your clients as a trainer like which is great I'm super glad that did you have to pivot to that or was that something you were already doing and with the current circumstances of not having gyms open and all that can you tell me about like how that all looks for you yeah so I started as an in-home personal trainer about well I started full-time I quit my nine-to-five job and wow that's what was your nine-to-five I was working for a show called Improv Asylum in Boston and I was always in theater I was a lot in theater business management type thing so I did that for like the first 10 years and got into fitness later when I started rock climbing realizing I need to you know be a little more fit for that kind of stuff but then and as I started doing rock climbing being more fit I started realizing how much I like fitness I like lifting weights and one of things I love the most was actually teaching women how to lift weights and that was something I'm very passionate about but I have found it sometimes a hard sell even now and I find it's like a cultural shift that I feel like we should work on I mean it's gotten better but but yeah so within a home training I started that two years ago I'm just was trainer working by myself and I love just driving to people's homes it's always a different environment keeps things interesting and then the when the pandemic happened you know things shut down and I wasn't going people's houses and you know freaking out like everyone else but I've noticed now once when gyms were reopening at least in Boston we reopened a while ago I know for you guys that reopened and just they're closing again and all that stuff but welcome to California but actually the pandemic has done done well for my business because people are not comfortable going back to the gyms so they're looking to hire in-home trainers talk about talk go back to the what you just mentioned about the cultural shift and while I was listening you talk is you never seemed to there was it was never taboo for you to do any of these sports or get into Olympic lifting where it's some there is still this mindset of like you know women don't need shouldn't be doing Olympic lifting or power lifting or things like that talk about your experience of starting to notice that with clients because you didn't sound like you felt that way ever yourself or did you I I didn't but I think I enjoy doing so I but or maybe it was just rock climbing and then Ninja Warrior but I mean now there's more women in Olympic lifting is full of women these days which is great because of the mobility thing but which which I love but but for sure I've noticed that a lot with clients because I'm all about doing strength training with everyone but in strength training for women they love the circuit stuff they people love the circuit they want to do cardio with weights yeah because of the way that they've been sold for so long but it just so interesting I mean I should say this but but some my my some of my favorite clients are my male clients because I don't have to sell them on strength training it's so easy they just want to do it they just need a little help they need accountability and be there watch their form all that stuff but I don't need to sell them on it and they love it but with the women I have to sell them on it all the time they'll do it but they'll tend to complain a little bit more you know they'll they'll just be like oh but that hurts or that feels uncomfortable or it's too heavy yeah have you had to deal with the whole mail because sometimes guys will give you this have you have you had to deal with the ego where the guys like I can grab heavier well yeah I'll do more than that let's grab the 40 you know well like would you do like lateral or front raise and they and I'm like just go too light go light on those because you don't need that much and then they grab like something crazy and they're like oh just kidding I can't I can't actually do that but yes for sure for sure but I don't mind that because then they guys are never like that because I like pulled something yeah but you got to pay attention because then they'll be hurt they will and they will tell me that's the other side they will tell me that they're hurt but but culturally I just thought it was really interesting that I have to do this battle with the weights thing I wish I could start them earlier my biggest thing is like wouldn't be griffly to start teenage girls earlier yes absolutely yes go into schools and do that I was like this is great guys we should do this yeah no I think I think we're on the cusp it's come a long way for sure you have no idea when we when I started training it it wasn't just convincing women it was like okay fine I'll just do legs yeah no I won't do that that's a anything heavier than five dumbbell five pound dumbbells I won't do you had to like constantly talk about I'd get the I don't want to turn into a line backer okay every time and I'm like I'm not trying to that will never happen yeah you'll be so blessed if you could do that that would be amazing yeah no it's it's definitely come a long way but I do feel like we're on the cusp of resistance training really achieving mainstream acceptance where you know when they go to the doctor and the doctor says you start exercising I think we're getting close to the part to the point where people start to think I think I'll do some resistance training versus I'm going to go running or cycling or or something else what we're getting close why do you think we're on the cusp of that I think we're on the cusp of it for a couple different reasons studies are confirming the benefits of resistance training tremendously like huge strength is by itself a great predictor of all cause mortality better than cardiovascular endurance or strength there were studies now that show that strength training is better for as as good or even better in some cases for heart health and then you have the popularity of female athletes that are in strength sports so more and more of these female athletes that look like they're fit and toned and women are saying oh I kind of want to look like that so that's helping I also think that just information is more readily available and so it moves quicker where you know 20 plus years ago you know a myth the myth around women lifting weights is going to make them bulky could stick around longer because you couldn't just get online real quick and Google that that's not true right where today that it's so much easier you hear information like that you can search it really I think too depends on who they're following on Instagram that's so true let's be honest yeah that makes a big difference yeah so the one more we were supposed to mention one more sponsor but this is going to be funny because I asked you about this earlier and I said have you ever use the biotics and you said you don't drink at all do you do anything to let loose some smoke a joint lift weights over my head okay hey great answer I love that great answer or I love that or swimming freezing cold water I mean Jesus Sal what else you need pretty high from that you don't need cocaine if you do these things so you're not going whoa so you're not going to buy the 48 pack of the box doesn't help with that like Justin gets he's like this will this will last me over the weekend no we so I actually just speaking of that I I just found that so on their website they have you know that I think it's like three six nine 12 packs and then in small print you know Jerry was looking to suffer us because she's like you know we keep buying these 12 packs in between the four owners the staff like these things don't last very long at all so she emailed in and they'll actually make you a deal if you buy in bulk so they don't they don't sell it on their website as a normal package but you can email them in that hey we're looking for this mini and they'll they'll make you a better deal than what their packages are so for those people that have tried z biotic absolutely love it and it's something that you want and you want to save money you can actually buy in more bulk now you have had alcohol though it's not like you've never had it before yes okay so before you leave I'll give you some when you go home I want you to test it and I want you to to let because it'll it's weird it's not like this it's not below it's actually quite weird it's very strange so we'll send you some we'll send you off with some and then test it out go hang out with your boyfriend whatever have a good time like a break this in case of emergency exactly that's I use it exactly I can't because that's like it's like defining love it's I know for every person it's different man yeah you're I mean what's one person considers fit may not be fit for someone else like a bodybuilder might be very fit for their workouts but would be terribly unfit for you know running a marathon or