 Everybody say we're debating the case for patriarchy and we are starting right now with the pro side in particular grace Thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours Hi James. Hi guys. Thanks for having me Okay, I want to start this by saying that I think there's two different ways to define the word patriarchy And I think it's really important that we figure out what exactly we're making the case for here on On the one hand you have the sort of very traditional Oxford Oxford dictionary definition, which is very literal, which would be any form of social organization in which men have predominant power This comes with etymology of the word. So patrie meaning father and Archea meaning rule in Greek Then you have a more sort of political definition of it Which would be sort of an oppressive structure that men enforce over women a Society controlled by men in which men use their power to their own advantage over women Um, I would hope just to start that we could agree that the concept that men as a collective Have conspired to oppress women throughout history by establishing power structures that subjugate women is ridiculous It's sort of a conspiracy theory Pre-christian societies did see women as second-class citizens the Greeks the Romans, etc The Greeks even thought that women were like unfinished men But post-christian societies, you know, I would I would say generally There isn't a collective of men that are oppressing women now that leads us to two essential questions number one is patriarchy the natural way of organizing human society and If you agree to that if so if it is the natural way Is it possible that we've progressed beyond nature due to technological advances, etc To the point where we no longer need to use the natural hierarchies I would say the answer to the first question is obviously yes But the opposition may try to fight us and say that patriarchy is not the natural way of organizing human society But in response to that I would just ask anybody to look at a family and tell me that the father is not the head of the household You know simply look at male and female anatomy and you tell me that the male is not the dominant and the female is the submissive Or show me one way in which men are not the source and creativity They give the source of life and women take that source and develop it I think debating about that is just boring. It's in our anatomy. It's in the way we work It's in the way we think it's obvious now the thing is I think about the patriarch I think the reason that it pisses the left off so much is because Unfortunately our society prizes masculine traits like leadership and aggression and dominance As like more valuable than feminine traits like cooperation real religiosity Empathy hump humility stuff like that So admitting for the when the left if the left admits that men are natural leaders They feel like they're admitting that men are better than women because leadership is more prized in our society than you know submission frankly and I don't think that I think that's the underlying motivation for saying that For denying the the nature of human, you know for denying human nature is to say Well, we can't admit that men are natural leaders and that men should be in charge in society Because if we admit that then we're admitting that women are lesser than men when in fact That's not true women and men both equally have important roles But I don't think you can debate the nature I think society has to value women more and not that society has to Masculinize women and say that they can be as great leaders and is great You know be in charge of things like men can I just think it's obvious that men have a certain role and women have a certain role So if we can agree on the basic natural human fact that men are naturally Leaders in society we can address a second more interesting question, which would be have we progressed beyond nature? Due to technology and other things like that to the point where we no longer need to use the natural hierarchies When I was researching this topic, I found a quote by a feminist historian Dr. Lerner who said What Freud should have said is that for women anatomy once was destiny But it no longer is and it should not be in the future Patriarchy is a human creation. It is not functioning very well now and it can be ended We can't do that as long as we believe that patriarchy is natural or God-given So in that quote, she's kind of saying like yes women are naturally due to our Anatomy and also, you know, just just due to nature. We are submissive, but due to advancements We no longer need to use this outdated system As a Catholic, but more so just as a person I firmly believe that even if technology can overcome certain physical differences between men and women that these differences are only the physical Manifestations of a deeper separation between the two sexes Women are contingent on men and that's just a fact of reality But I'll leave disproving that to our opposition I'm not making the case for patriarchy. I'm simply pointing out the obvious and it's up to them to make the case for something else There's no coherent way to organize society except for the way that society naturally organizes itself Which is that men are the leaders and women follow But if you want to play god, you can see how that works out for yourself. Thank you We'll kick it over to infrared for his opening as well sure, um So I'd like to begin this by saying that um, I'm not necessarily committed on Any heavy statements on you know, biology or anything like that? Of course I think these things Play a profound role, but I think it's even more simple When it comes to the topic of patriarchy and what else what I'd say is I don't think the following statement can be contested Is that patriarchy is the foundation of civilization now? I'll preface this before the advent or era of civilization It appears that Mankind lived in these kind of small communities these bands of so-called hunter-gatherers In which it appeared. There was a matriarch But civilization is more or less defined by the ability for different groups different social communities to be able to somehow Uh coexist in a state of mutual recognition And in a state of submission towards some kind of higher power than even that And if we look across history every era of history Of this history of civilization Corresponds to some kind of patriarchy Now we can speculate on the reasons for this I think one of them has to do with a relationship between manhood or masculinity And socialization It seems that the dream of a matriarchy or the dream of a so-called equality. We know it's impossible absolute equality um Is this idea of unconditional sociality of everyone being fully absorbed into some kind of Socialization the more effeminate the man is the more he's socialized and willing to obey The rules and norms of institutions and discourses manhood If you want to simplify it can be defined by being able to step out of the mold Step out of the box and step out of a given social community and found a new one Um and this is principally done through the unit of the family Whatever arrangement or form the family has in the era of civilization Has a man at the head of the household for a reason because the family is the form in which man establishes a new realm of social community that While of course can coexist with other forms of community like countries nations or states um Is not purely continuous with them So to me it seems clear that the agenda against masculinity and against the so-called patriarchy Is founded upon this attempt to fully socialize society and eliminate The revolutionary impulses inherent in masculinity men do not want to obey some kind of uniform Uh institutionalized straight jacketed safe space society. They have an inherent inclination to Look at society from the perspective of outside not to be of all revolutionary psychologists, but it's almost as simple as Men had to deal with the issue of it doesn't matter what meaning it has socially. It doesn't matter Whose feelings this hurts a lion is going to come fucking eat us unless we grab a spear and go get rid of the lion Whereas women are more focused on the inner world of community and sociality And men have to deal with the fact that every social community is premised By its contrary by its opposite every social community is premised by conditions That can are not within the control of the social community You cannot discursively arbitrate the existence of lions volcanoes hurricanes droughts famines So on and so forth or even external threats in the form of Invading enemies. These are not things you can negotiate within a given community Female psychology it appears to me and I have I'm open to being proven wrong but I haven't in the entirety of my 26 years is more based on this kind of um Assumption that the entire world coexist with the way in which we talk about it describe it or communicate it With one in another and the ability to understand a pure objective alterity seems to Not be possible for women in my view and that's not necessarily a bad thing Uh, but it does speak to the fact there are differences between men and women as it relates to how Communities are reproduced They fulfill different roles not just different roles at the level of a household But different roles at the level of civilization And instead of trying I am not necessarily against formal equality between men and women We should not say women can't be Engineers or scientists and so on and pursue this form of education Because then we preempt something we can have no absolute knowledge of But even when we have full absolute formal equality, which appears to be the case of the united states It seems like we still end up fulfilling more or less natural uh sexual roles And feminists consider this to be an outrage and want to go beyond the realm of formal equality and establish Some kind of absolute equality in the realm of culture and this is exactly what I oppose Culture is patriarchal Not because it's some system or it's some kind of political establishment but because the male and female role Ontologically mean different things The male and female role are not arbitrary gender constructs Because this assumes some kind of flat neutral biological state When in reality all biology is sexed in some kind of way even in terms of asexual reproduction all biology Revolves around the contradiction of sexuation and this is an irreducible absolute contradiction no matter how much you want to say We can bridge the gap There's always going to be the male way and the female way of looking at things and I don't think this dialectic can be dissolved there it may reproduce itself in new ways But that dialectic between man and woman that fundamental difference has always existed uh across all of history and here's the most important kicker The recent movements which attempt to establish Lee some kind of equality between man and woman Only ever have the effect of making men effeminate It never has the effect of actually allowing women to somehow fulfill the patriarchal or masculine role All it does is basically try to turn everyone into a bitch excuse my language So that's the effect we've seen So when people say haz you may say this is the case for all of history But what about these new things that are happening now those are not succeeding in eliminating sexual difference They are just succeeding in uh in an extremely misanthropic anti-human way attacking masculinity and manhood itself Which is Contributing to the decline of civilization itself and a healthy relationship between the sexes So that's my Thank you very much For that opening statement as well infrared and folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate I'm your host james want to let you know our vision at modern day debate is to provide a neutral platform So that everybody can make their case on a level playing field if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button Because we hope you feel welcome and we've got plenty more debates to see You don't want to miss out so hit that subscribe button right now with that We're going to jump over to the you could say against patriarchy position. Thanks so much for being with us Nina and anthony anthony the floor is all yours Thank you, james appreciate you inviting me on to this program. Great got to be here So tonight we are arguing whether or not patriarchy should be followed My opponents have just said that we should and I will do my best to explain why we shouldn't This is an argument that has been going on for all of recorded history and pretty much nearly across all cultures The ancient stoic philosophers argued that the women should study philosophy But in order to be better wives and mothers It was led but it was left to men to lead In ancient china kung fu's the founder of confucianism talked about the proper role for men and women He promoted traditional values as a means of achieving stability and that meant men should be leaders and women should be homemakers We see the same thing in india going back to at least 1500 bc where women were outright prevented from entering religious life And i'm sure we all know how judaeo christian values have influenced the west Now while all this is true It is also true that the opposite arguments were being made as well Going back to ancient Greece. We have the ancient myth of amazonian warriors being fearsome and battle hardened Plato and socrates argued that women and men were roughly equal in china We have the story of mulan and the polo book the warrior cream of eva existed Medicine women in the dark ages of europe were generally respected by their communities before the takeover of christendom Jonah vark need i say more Regardless of what anyone says there has never been consensus on this issue If one believes that patriarchy does exist, which i do it doesn't mean that the existence is just Just because it may have served a purpose in the past doesn't mean it does so now For example, we can easily postulate that patriarchy rose out of physical power differences between men and women war Farming a desire to control parentage or any other manner of convenience and rationalization But the material conditions that gave rise to the patriarchy are no longer In existence if they ever were With each passing century humans have pushed towards greater equality and liberalization for our collective betterment We have gone from a paternalistic authoritarian based system to one of roughly liberal democracy And if you are like me, you believe that is an inherent good But let's say you aren't like me and that you think the decline since women were given the franchise in the 19th amendment Uh has been bad The united since its passage though the united states gdp has increased exponentially going from roughly 59 billion dollars to 25 trillion dollars In today's monetary money Maybe you're okay with women having the right to vote, but you think society only really started going downhill when women entered the workforce Well, since about 1960 gdp per kappa went from roughly $3,000 to $70,000 and us gdp has gone from roughly 534 billion dollars to again 25 trillion If women being empowered was really that detrimental to society, you would think you would see it in these numbers Wouldn't you? What about laws? Well, I can think of no better example than francis perkins Who is instrumental in the creation of the fair labored standards and social security I think most people can agree that society should strive to get as close to a meritocracy as possible I believe most people would say that not every person is suited for every type of position I would venture to guess that my opponents agree with these statements as well In fact, they likely believe that men and women are generally suited for different roles as you heard and that is well, okay Of course, but I I'm really selfish For the sake of argument, let's assume that my opponents are right about the patriarchy What does this do to people who do not fit neatly into these tiny little boxes? Are they to be ostracized by society? Are they to be forced themselves into these boxes which they do not really belong? If so, then would that mean that we lose out on their talents? Doesn't all of society suffer as a result? Like I said, I am an extremely selfish person. I want to be able to have access to all of the world's talents I want to be able to live my life as I choose As long as I don't hurt other people Forcing everyone into these confining roles prevents this and as a result it does hurt us all Thank you Thank you very much. We'll kick it over to Nina as well. Thanks for being with us Nina for the first time ever. Glad you're here Thank you for having me. It's always exciting to come on a new show um I'm gonna keep mine short and sweet because I can't imagine the attention spin is gonna hold that much but um I want to just address a few things that were obviously mentioned Earlier about like the natural way. I don't think that there is a natural way if you're gonna use the the phrasing of saying like a natural way Um, then we wouldn't have differences in societies, right? Um, there's more than I want to get into later obviously, but I'll just Very short here and just say I'm an American I love freedom And I want freedom for the most amount of people What I think people forget when it comes to patriarchy is it doesn't just like shit on women It is very damaging to men as well I don't think that men should be required to be this like a strong domineering like I'm Ned Stark emotional person or emotionless person If you're not that type of person because people are different and we all know that I think that it shouldn't be A requirement to just be like what like the tallest guy the strongest guy like we have to be the best leaders. No, I think it's okay to be somebody who is um more um I don't know more shy more uh more even like I guess like feminine like more Intune with their feelings they don't have to put on this presentation and play this role um another aspect of the patriarchy is the um The core is to basically oppress both men and women in my opinion um Because the limits of freedoms because you're not able to like stay a house husband in the way that um, I think Should be the option to you I think it puts an incredible amount of societal uh system and systematic systematic pressure to maintain rigid gender expectation and To also add or to agree again with my partner here that it definitely weakens the pool of talent That is available to contribute to society Um, I think diversity again as an american diversity is our strength Why do you think we're the best country in the fucking world when it comes to? freedom because I think that as an american everyone should be against the patriarchy because that is undemocratic That is anti freedom And I think that We have no need for it It doesn't make sense. We are the strongest country in the world Why would we go back to some archaic value that clearly has not worked out? Do you think that the patriarchal countries that exist in the modern day are doing like significantly well? I'm gonna end on that. You got it. Thank you very much for that opening as well We're gonna jump into the open dialogue We want to let you know folks a couple of housekeeping things first If you didn't know modern day debate is also available via podcast All of our debates end up on the podcast within 24 hours of them being live Pull up your favorite podcast app right now and find modern day debate On your favorite podcast app so you can listen to debates on the go add free with that We're gonna jump into the open dialogue. Thanks so much for being with us Nina, anthony, grace and even infrared actually I'm gonna tell you infrared save the day by coming in early. So I want to give them some major street cred Thank you infrared and the rest of our guests. The floor is all yours So, uh, I'm just curious. Are there any examples of some non patriarchal countries you can name? Some non patriarchal countries I don't understand the relevancy of that question Yeah, because you weren't paying attention and your head was up your ass because nina was just saying That well, what about all the patriarchal countries? How are they doing? Well, what are some non patriarchal countries? Well, I think that you could compare a patriot or a patriarch. Sorry patriarchal country, for example, like I don't like Saudi Arabia to america. I mean like Those are obviously two different levels of patriarchy the GDP per capital in Saudi Arabia Probably I'm just giving you an example of a like a country that is more patriarchal But nina you're equating patriarchy with oppression of women, right because you would aren't you equating that? I'm equating it to oppression of both men and women Okay, but what I'm saying is you're saying that patriarchy limits people's freedom All I'm saying is it's a way to organize society And america is by forcing them to go no to force them into going into it has patriarchal systems Yes, of course every country does to an extent. There's no like No way It's not a system of government. Like what do you mean? Right. It's a system. It's a it's a hierarchy. It's a way. I mean, here's a less loaded question Exactly. Can you name some non patriarchal societies? Or culture you want me to name a society or culture that doesn't have hierarchies That doesn't have patriarchy as you'd see it. I don't have any like a matriarchal care a matriarchal society That's I have no fucking. Okay a non I mean a matriarchal society I thought that the question was whether or not we should follow a patriarchal society not whether or not they exist The question whether or not they exist the question of whether we should have a patriarchy is directly related to the question of whether it's possible For there not to be patriarchy Is it okay? So then my follow-up question and if red would be whether or not is there going to be an instance where there is Either meritocracy where patriarchy doesn't really matter anymore Or is there some societies that are less patriarchal than other ones and those societies are doing better or not? I love your question in a meritocracy. I'm willing to bet a patriarchy would arise naturally We don't have a meritocracy in today's feminist institutions because what I would argue There isn't a meritocracy even the most What we have in the woke institutions is affirmative action for the fair We have a quota if you're a woman we're going to appoint you to a position of power not because they're a quota What country are you talking about though? You don't actually have quotas in the united states We don't have quotas in the united states We have institutions which definitely there are some companies that wish to have Some companies it's a corporate fucking standard. Don't weasel out here. I'm not weaseling out There are some companies that want to have a more Equity name some major institutions that don't practice affirmative action For women when it comes to affirmative action for women. Yeah name some can you name one that does? Uh, every corporate almost that's a cop out every okay Okay, okay, you know what? Almost all of the writers who work at netflix who are women are just there because they're women. They're not talented They're worthless everything they produce. That is a completely subjective interpretation of what is going on If you don't know these corporations literally go. Oh, yeah, she's a woman. We'll hire her because it gives us some fucking brownie points Yeah, that's what you know capitalism Wait, don't we have to wait We have to I I think you guys on the opposition you have to give some basis for why you say patriarchy is oppressive to women because You're saying it's wrong and we're going into what societies have patriarchy matriarch or whatever, but what is your Yeah, go ahead. So we're changing the subject Well, I mean quotas like but don't we have to go back to the basics and say like why are you guys against patriarchy in the first place And then we can go into how it's Do you want to go first now? Um, well, I mean that was literally our opening statements. So I don't know because we're just we're paying attention But like do you want to just read them again? Well, what i'm saying is you're saying that patriarchy hurts women, but you haven't actually identified everybody The reason it hurts everybody and that's what I ended my opening statement with is that there are people that Hold on Just because we have each of you asking hold on one sec. Just we have each of you asking your question of anthony I want to give anthony a chance to respond Thank you So to to answer that question It is oppressive to anybody that is not within the quote-unquote norm And there are going to be men that are going to be outside of the norm They're going to be women outside of the norm What we want to see happen is a as equitable of a society as that we can have and to me That means meritocracy which means that if a woman is good at leading people They should be a leader if a man is good at being a leader They should be a leader if a woman is smarter than a man in a particular Field of study They should have more say in what that field of study is rather than than a man does just for the fact that they are a man I agree with that too, but i'm not saying I think you equate patriarchy with like fifties Which is like this then you don't know what you will you you can't no hold on You can't agree with that and then before the patriarchy just I know it's my turn now No, patri patriarchy in the sense that men are generally the leaders, but not every man is going to be a better leader than But naturally men are the leaders you have to disprove that one sec Let's hear from nina and then let's hear from infrared And then anthony, uh, well, I would respond directly to her So I don't know if we want to get into that but like you're saying men are the naturally leaders based off of what? Well, meritocracy is a patriarchy essentially because men will be good at leading aggression dominance and women will be good at you know Taking care of the house and being more submissive And there will be outliers, but essentially it will form itself into a patriarchy if it's meritocracy Why did women not want to what did women not want to do that anymore? And why why have we moved past you can you can I know this is jordan peterson poem You can you can look at scandinavian countries You can look at scandinavian countries when women have all the freedom to choose They choose feminine jobs like nursing teaching young children, etc, right? So that does naturally form itself into a patriarchy Men are the making the decisions. They're the leaders. They're in politics. They themselves wait So how was being a nurse on a like if you're like the head nurse like you're doing a leadership job You seem like big. Yes. Yes on a lower How was that a lower level? Yeah, how is it lower than a doctor or a surgeon based off of what? A nurse is equal to a doctor or surgeon. It depends on the level of If we're talking about a nurse practitioner, they are basically the essential the equivalent of a general a general Let's welcome in for right in for his point Yeah, so you're gonna say there, huh? First of all, uh, let's stop pretending that men are happy with uh, the new feminism and shit Men no one's happy right shut the fuck up men in 2023 Are way more miserable and depressed than they were in the 1950s You're gonna sit here and deny that you're a dishonest Weasel and a coward and a liar now the second thing I want to say people are more depressed than they were After world war two Infrared about 30 seconds to make a few points and I'm gonna give you the same amount of time Why the fuck why the fuck is anyone gonna sit here and pretend like in America? Like what we have with this equity policy reflects meritocracy if we had a meritocracy There would be zero Zero women in positions of corporate power compared to what we have today if you're gonna deny that you're full of shit These women running universities corporations institutions academies Even the damn police are doing the equity shit saying we need female cops to go fucking fight Big dudes and shit. What the hell is that? Why they sending you believe in sending female cops out to go and wrangle Strong grown ass men that's stupid and then you complain about police killing people Well, what else do they have with a fucking gun? It's stupid every segment of society in america Every sector of society in america is doing this shit. We're like, oh, we gotta have women just because they're fucking women Why why don't we actually have a real meritocracy where people who have the skills get the fucking job? That's not what we fucking have that's why That's why infrared look it was an infrared haze I'm not gonna get nominated as the vp of the democrat party We gotta have camala harris because she's a woman camala did dog shit All right, let's take it over What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have any proof for a single fucking claim that you're making? Excuse me Do you have any there any proof of anything that you're saying you're just kind of For example, I was saying hold on for so me. Let me let me have an act a question direct question So you said that they're of course police are killing people look at all the women on the police force How many women killed people within in 2020 or 20 will say 2022? That's the last year you're missing the fucking point No, you can't make that point Listen crowdsource crowdsource the the point is We have irrational cases of affirmative action Where women are put on the line of duty to go and fucking Fight and and how many of those women have pulled their their Service piece out to blow somebody away versus how many I have no idea, but I'm telling okay The point is is that the vast majority of shootings that happen No, we're going to talk about what It is though Okay, let me ask you common sense question. We do actually have to have a chance for people are able to interact with each other's questions This is common sense. This is common sense ready Can a woman female officer restrain a grown big-ass strong man. Can they do that? Oh, so how do they Yes, women are much This has nothing to do with the patriarchy. This is a It does have to do with the patriarchy because that's okay Then I want to hear grace. Tell me how it has to do with the patriarchy Just because I do have to put everybody on mute for a second just because I appreciate everybody's passion, but if everybody's speaking at the same time Especially if sometimes people are even speaking over their debate partner It really defeats the purpose of people being able to hear anybody at all. So I'm going to unmute everybody and I'm ready for you. So I think the last question was posed by I think anthony So if you can remind us just by literally only asking that question We'll give infrared 30 seconds to respond to that question. What was your question one more time anthony? I would like to know why women's existence in the police force has anything at all to do with the patriarchy I'm just saying it's an example of how even police departments are starting to adopt the equity policy Appointing women in positions. They're clearly not fit for But this has nothing in my opinion to do with the patriarchy patriarchy is a societal system Where men are by either Quote-unquote natural virtue of their their biology Are more likely to be in charge of society versus women not necessarily not more likely are in charge of society How do you how do you um get rid of the patriarchy then if it's just an immutable fact? I don't believe it's an immutable fact. That's what I made in my opening statement Well, can can I try to answer your biology? What do we do? Female police officers. Okay, the patriarchy. Okay, so men are more powerful naturally, right? So Female police officers are trying to invert that nature and that's happened a lot in our society with women It's it with the problem is is our society values masculine traits So every so feminists want women to become police officers lawyers politicians Be aggressive assertive dominant forceful, right? The problem is that our society values those traits Which do naturally lead to men being in power, but it doesn't mean that men are any better than women But women now feel the need to constantly prove that they're as good as men Which actually ends up masculinizing women The patriarchy is just a recognition of the natural order of things and is much more beneficial to women because If a female is in the police force, she's going to do poorly She's she has less gravitas. She's going to be more violent because she can't She doesn't have the physical power to restrain people and control the situation and it actually is much worse for women Okay, so I just looked up the stats. There's 11.5. I don't want to do data Can we just I know I know concepts But but the point is is we're going to talk about how this this existence of the police Women being in police force are going to be more violent and therefore more masculine lies It's somehow being bad and we have to look at how many people make up for the fact that they physically cannot control a situation as Nearly as well as men, but if that was the case then it wouldn't be men Overwhelmingly using their service arm to kill people in the line of duty Well, it's men overwhelmingly because there's way more men in the police force There's way more men even proportionally It is more men proportionally killing killing people in the line of duty than women And that is probably because the way that the police are trained to be fearful for their lives because America's got a gun It's not I'll just stop it there because I don't want to do that ever So let's simplify this I'm not here to deny that men are more violent than women. Obviously they are But here's the question we have to fucking ask all right Just so we can level somewhere in terms of like where our level of common sense is or do we have to pull out data Do you agree there is a widespread phenomena of? Feministic equity policy across America's institutions where women are appointed into positions of power or the professions Because they want to Look good hiring more women or having more women like is that an institutional policy? That's been adopted by pretty much most of america's corporations universities NGOs and stuff like if you have a basic Mainstream institution in the united states do they consider it a good thing to like Higher women and put them in positions Primarily because they're women and they think this is a win for equality. So just so we can level Not primarily because they are women how but no because you're gonna laugh I know it is not just because they're women what it is is that they are women with certain leadership qualities And so those are the people that are being promoted. It's not just any old woman That's being like pulled off the street and then be like, okay, you're CEO now. That's not what's happening Experience and everything else Hold on. You're saying women are primarily Being promoted career-wise and in terms of their professions and business of power Not because of affirmative action, but because of pure merits. That's what you're saying I'm gonna push back on has a little bit here because I think he has a sort of like a 50s cookie cutter idea of male and feminine Female traits women can be extremely good communicators. They can be great for business Like connecting with people networking. So it's not like all and women can also be good leaders I'm just saying naturally Huh, like Kamala Harris who was appointed because Kamala Harris is an extremely effective politician. Sure. Is she All right, we'll we can have you guys Hold on you guys hold on so we can have you guys debate about Kamala Harris later. I do want to give Nina a chance if you had any thoughts that you wanted to share Nina I know that the conversation has been moving fast and often has it feels like you'd have to interrupt Between a series of questions between two people. What have you got Nina any thoughts? They're muted on on uh On here on zoom. Let me unmute you. I think it might be set because infrared's on tonight. I set it so that I have to unmute you I guess I didn't realize I was muted. I have I have the thing Go ahead. I wasn't looking. I don't know if I've been muted for it. I wonder if it is listening to me Sorry, um, so I know we don't want to do the stats thing apparently, but I will say uh Oz what do you think about the fact that um diverse teams are statistically more likely to be um Have a higher production To be more efficient by the industry um in um research Specifically In researching what researching what what are you talking about? Um, well if you're talking about uh, I have a study of six 0.6 million papers finds that gender balance teams produce more innovative and impactful work um, so What are you talking about? What work? Do you understand how researching works? Researching what it's it's research in general. It's a generalized So you're you're gonna sit here and tell me it's data science. You found a legitimate study that said All research is better when there's diversity Well, it was a study of 6.6 million papers. It's a like make a meta study How did they measure the innovation success of those papers? You want me to just like I could just link it to you if you want to I'm just curious like what about it talking about because most if you know anything Well, I'm telling okay, so you're just gonna attack the study now Well, the problem is if you know anything about the scientific community That's the reason I'm asking this and if you know anything about academia Most research papers lead to nothing. So I'm asking you what defines success talking about medicine that they're More likely to be published Okay, that's I don't think that's a metric I don't like to be Highly set you understand what you understand a highly cited papers mean I think papers that are more do you understand what that means? Yeah, I do But I think papers that are more likely to actually lead to like technological innovation Or new practices for example, they're actually one paper is just gonna lead to like technological innovation No, it's research the thing is it's just All right, if it's based on results And I'd have to look at it, but if it's not based on results, I'm not gonna entertain what you're talking about I don't care about well assume assume that it's true though just for the sake of argument. Yeah, like I mean, I think I do Yeah, if if it happens to be true then my best guess Would be that it would have been the result of a meritocracy and not an equity policy of just hiring women That's it to overcome systemic oppression or whatever Okay, so then you would agree then that diverse teams are better If it was proven that diverse teams produce more results, of course, but first of all that has not been And I mean it does paper it is no one's first of all second of all you guys are being really bad faith because nobody's even denying that Nobody's denying that women can research scientific papers and stuff What I am insisting upon the fact of is that our society in terms of our institutions has tipped the scale in the extreme toward uh equity policy and affirmative action Rather than merit and I think if you deny that you're just being just okay. We're talking about patriarchy though So patriarchy would deny these women being able to be involved in these studies. So they would be, you know, nine That's not true. That's not percent less public Patriarchy is a merit, patriarchy is a meritocracy. Men are inherently better at those things. I do want to hear. Let's let's let Nina finish this point and then we'll hear from you. I don't I don't know if you just don't understand what it is, but like like If we're talking about that gender roles should be like patriarchy inherently Uh supports gender roles, correct. We can we establish that it recognizes gender roles that already exist that are obvious That are obvious, okay, you have to define what which which kind of patriarchy are you referring to? Are you referring to the the feminist theory that like there's a conspiracy that that men have conspired to Women I don't know where the fuck you got that from but nobody thinks that so let's put that out Well, you're so so who is who is so okay according to you Who is who is enforcing the patriarchy and wants to subjugate both men and women? Who is both men and women do it? It's just so if it hurts both men if it hurts both men and women, then who's doing it? You must have somebody it is a self perpetuating cycle based on prior prior existence Prior existence that is similar to the way that people lefties I'm sure haas couldn't agree with this lefties believe that capitalism self perpetuates itself Must come from somewhere it must have originated somewhere. I believe it originates in the nature of human war It originates in the fact that we created farming and farming created the the material conditions that led to There was not jibberjabbing this is You gotta let me finish hold on one side Go ahead Anthony So If if there is a there is a feminist theory that says that patriarchy came into the existence Because of farming and the reason they became in existence because of farming is because when you are staying stable in a single area For long periods of time you have to have a system where you divide the the labor of the farm And as well as protecting the area So that's that doesn't make sense because farming is less masculine than like hunter gathering, which I assume you would say was before That is that is a entirely Modern interpretation of what what it is hunter gathering is an even more extreme enforcement of gender roles If you want to say that somebody's enforcing something that men go out and hunt and that women stay home and Prepare the food and take care of the kids. That's they didn't dude. We're not Farming is much more farming is much more egalitarian But you have to blame somebody for this oppressive system. You have to blame somebody who's to blame Really quick, let's hear an actual answer from either Nina or anthony and then we'll go over to infrared How can both sexes be oppressing each other It's the system that's graduating. Yeah, who started it Who started capitalism I don't know. I'm not here to debate capitalism. I don't know politics really. No, but it's a system who started that Is it an individual? What are you asking for? I I don't know. I don't know. It's a system of It's an it's an economic system that develops. I don't know. It's a system And that people have been living under for Years hundreds of years. Okay, but you have to if you say capitalism is oppressive You must say that somebody started it to oppress others, right? You want me to okay? I think you just don't even understand what we're talking about Who started it then? I don't I know you can't just turn it back on me. I'm saying the patriarchy you're saying is oppressive to both Yeah, okay. Go ahead. I'm reaching out So grace is saying that the reason the patriarchy exists is an inherent biological function of humans in general Men are stronger than women. Men are more naturally Leading to people whatever right Whereas people that are taking a more sociological view of this which I think Nina will do Is saying that what we actually have is that at some point in human history We don't have all of human history recorded so we can only theorize based on anthropological findings and Piecing together whatever written texts or moral or not moral oral histories exist That what we see is that somebody at some point decided that usually a leader usually a group of leaders Decided hey, this is the best way to go forward for some reason And that is where I came with the farming thing That's where I come with the war stuff you have territory. You have to do this Crop sorted did a man or a woman invent feminism That's not relevant. So I'm not going to answer it Well, you're talking about like a bunch of stupid bullshit about farming So I just hope we rope it back to the actual topic But she grace asked who started patriarchy So I so I decided to answer that question. So there we go It was a relevant detour and I have to ask the question You keep talking about patriarchy versus meritocracy Well, what would you say to the feminist critique which is dominant and widespread in terms of how patriarchy is framed? Which is this even in a meritocracy if we don't go out of our way to quote unquote correct Uh thousands of years of imbalance culturally on a cultural level. We're talking about culture Then uh It's why I just disagree. I would disagree with those people Okay, so at some point you have to at some point you have to ignore Thousands of years ago. I don't care what happened a thousand years. I care what happens like 10 years ago What examples of a meritocracy could you give them that are not patriarchal? Well, we don't have a meritocracy right now partly because of meritocracy, but I mean partially because of patriarchy partly because of any other Let's say we had a meritocracy and on a cultural level It still led to something that most people could agree resemble the patriarchy It would no longer be inherently it would no longer be a patriarchy because it would be Yeah, those things don't exist Unable to exist in the same in the same world. I want to just get something out of this Okay, I'm not speaking to because I'm really curious Because there is no formal patriarchy, right? So if you're saying it would no longer be uh, really a patriarchy anymore. Why is that? And I wanted you to answer that Okay, just to make sure I understood your question correctly If there was meritocracy where men were still relatively in charge compared to women that would in your mind be a patriarchy No, I'm asking you. Why wouldn't that be a patriot? Yeah, no, I'm I know I'm making sure that I understand your position as well as the question So that wouldn't be a patriarchy in my mind because what we have we would get rid of every single kind of system that is sociologically constructed at some level and And then that that oppresses people and then we would have meritocracy What wait what what oppresses women grace grace grace let the man handle this. I do one second. Oh, come on. I do hold on Well, go back I uh, there's one thing that just triggers me. I don't really call. I don't I don't call Okay, no, all right now. I'm getting pleasure out of it. So I'm just gonna mute everybody for a second So what I'm gonna do is kick it back to Nina because Nina I think had a point earlier and infrared wanted to finish his point first. So Nina, what have you got? I Do not remember exactly we're talking about but I did want to make a joke of uh, yeah I think grace if she wants to live in the patriarchy should probably like just uh stop talking No, you misunderstand what a patriarchy is All right, so what I'm trying to say is that um these systems these sociological systems Is the word you use that you're talking about are cultural phenomena. They are not enumerated Institutions that exist on a formal level inscribed somewhere. It depends on the depends on the country, right? Okay, in the united states of america I think it's pretty fair to say that at the level of the law and most of the institutions which rule society There is not much of an enforcement of male dominance Yeah, no, it's a disagreement there. I there's something you said formal Yes, formal Okay, I can kind of hear that so if it's informal then how do you determine whether it's an organic cultural phenomena? Or if it's the nefarious so-called institution of patriarchy, which you seem not to be able to pin down You you look at the um This is going to be flubbed i'm sure but you look at the amount of people that are applying for positions And who are getting those positions you look at the people that are you look at um, how many more applications with similar Similar or even the exact same resume are going through it and seeing which ones are hired more than the others Etc etc etc to get to this to the heart of it. I mean, this is just basic sociological Oh, um, you would say that this would be purely measured in the form of past institutional credentials But that speaks to a problem I speak to earlier, which is itself referential if the only credentials for I'll give you an example of this Sometimes people are hired not necessarily because of the credentials they had in the past But because of the unique and creative ability for them to solve problems and engage tasks solving problems and so on so maybe women can in some cases have more Credentials on a piece of paper than a man, but a man is actually more effective at getting things done And that can't always be measured by institutions necessarily Well, then why wouldn't why would men why would those men then be hired because they're better at creating stuff If you can't measure it then how do you know that the manner better can't always be measured by a resume It could be measured in the results, obviously, but it can't always be measured Well, when I say resume, I mean like someone's job past job Someone's a test whatever it just the the augmentation of everything that goes into Uh getting hired. Yeah, but I think institutions Are inherently socializing Things which is basically they kind of neglect that element of human creativity and individual willpower That cannot always be premised by the terms of the institution And I think that's why in a meritocracy sometimes men do naturally come out on top and dominate Even if it doesn't make sense according to the resume or the institution because of you would you have to perform Sorry, go and finish your point. I don't mean to stop over. I'm just trying to give you one possible example of how What youth would take as a measurement of unjust patriarchy could actually just reflect Something organic. Yes, right men prefer to hire other men because they're less likely to get pregnant. They're more work focused They work longer hours It's it's it's that part of the patriarchy are those men part of the men who hire I mean if they if they prefer to hire men over women simply because of the fact that the woman can possibly get pregnant Yeah, I would say that that is probably that is well if you're trying to run an effective If you're trying to run an effective business, you have to recognize the natural The natural occurrence. Yeah, and if you hire a woman But if men need to spend time with their kids as well during paternity leave And that's an issue that men are actually oppressed by the patriarchy because they're expected to just be like Hey, you are not supposed to be with your kid during the first eight months of its life Fuck you come back to work. It's much more important. It's much more important to be with the kid In the first in the first couple months when a when a baby's born the man doesn't really do much of anything It's mostly the baby and the mother. Oh my god That depends that depends that depends on The the ability to produce nature. It's true. They don't do anything They don't have much to do they interact with the baby somewhat, but they can they can work just as Oh, so it's not important for you to be near your child I mean you could be near your child. You don't need to take time off of work. It's It's infinitely exponentially more important for the noble to bond with the child. One at a time. Just so we're clear All right, let's hear from nita. Go ahead nita. Okay, so you think That men don't need to spend time with their children. No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that Okay, so they need to spend much less time. They don't need to take time off of work if they have a newborn A couple hours a day is fine. They don't have much to do. It's a newborn. It can't talk. It can't Okay, so you want just somebody to stay at home and just But the second she gives birth you should just be able to take care of everything It's it's incredibly important in the early stages of the of the baby for the woman to bond with Bonding in terms of like actually like, um, you were with your partner What's the guy gonna do? What's the guy gonna do? Hold the baby? He's gonna hold the baby a little bit Baby's work. What the fuck are you talking about? What's a man gonna do? It's about the woman. She's breastfeeding. She's So you're saying you leave a baby in a corner and don't do anything Not all women can do this. You're lying. You're just denying reality. No, no Not all women are capable of this meeting. I'm gonna try to ask you to clarify, my girl. And your small minority of women can't allow it to be for me. No, you strawmanned me by saying something I didn't say. I'm asking you a question. I'm wanting you to correct me. No, quiet I want to hear from Anthony. I give you guys a shot. You guys talk No, you just I'm amazed that you make that face at me, Nina When I'm trying to interject just to give Anthony a chance to speak and you make it seem like I'm the bad guy Because I'm just saying like it was just several times. Hold on. Seriously. I'm still talking and you're still interrupting Is that when I'm saying let's go to anthony several times and you're still talking over me And you still just keep doing it. It's like, okay. I don't think you realize I'm the one that's supposed to keep this thing orderly so He's the patriot. You're a little quiet when everyone's talking. So I apologize. Okay, no problem I know I know there's a delay sometimes too. So I don't want to go. I don't want to get too triggered But yeah, I didn't mean to be rude Go ahead and Anthony and then I promise we'll come back to you Nina I know you had a point as well that you want to still make Anthony. What was your thing you were gonna say? First I want to apologize to everybody because I know I'm interrupting so that's on me. All right Put that out of the way. So grace. Do you think every single woman is capable of breastfeeding? That they have the capacity to do it No, of course adequately adequately, okay Most women like most though like 90% at least most so so In those instances where they're not able to then Then is it important for the husband to be around to help? Especially if there's other things that need to be done around the house Like it's where they're breastfeeding all the time and you know, that's what I'm saying The the human the physical contact with the mother and the constant bonding is the most important to the newborn at that time Whether it's formula or the breast milk, which is obviously much better But like if it has to be formula because of a physical problem then Still it would be the mother I've taken care of babies have either of you. Yes Okay, well my own child, but yeah Okay, so like It's much more important for the mother to bond with it during that time Why is that more important for the mother to bond with the child that it is for the father? Wouldn't we think that in like ancient societies that there was a not maybe a 50 50 split but a little bit more equitable split between time Spent between the two the two parents Well, the baby came out of the mother's body It's obviously going to be more connected to her and obviously breastfeeding and like the majority of the time is an Like an intense physical bond that is Oxytocin all that stuff comes in. Why don't you why don't you call it? Why don't you call it a matriarchy that only women can get pregnant and have kids and enjoy that experience, right? Because that's a natural order of things men can't experience that right But you said women are men impressing men because that's what you said But you said that men don't need to be around their children as much in those early months because they can't really do much And it's important for women to bond with their child more When well not nearly as yeah Studies that I have seen show that men that actually spend time with their children in early childhood Very early childhood We're talking between the the day of birth to two years old Are more likely to not only raise the child better because they have a more physical bond with that child and more emotional bond to them But also are more capable of understanding what that child As needs and have all these other kind of knock on effects from there, right? So we're telling men I'm sure that's true But but what the original point was in the workplace men prefer to hire other men because women Necessarily need to take time off to take care of their children Especially men do too because of all that stuff that we're talking about They don't need to take time off And it's society that says that men shouldn't be taking time off that they should be the winner the breadwinners the providers The the go the go-getters and push as much of their time off From their family as possible in order to bring as many resources into the family as possible So I don't think it's uh, it's not a stretch to say that you know if the father's At least a little bit around in the early stages That would probably be better, but but much time to fathers actually need to spend With newborn children compared to women. It's it's not just newborn children though. That's the thing So if we're talking about my point is why would it just say paternity leave my father spent a lot of time with me And he was working full-time Paternity leave increases the amount of bonding that can happen between a father and his child as well as also taking some of the house-carrying house and taking needs off the mother I just think that's ridiculous. I've seen men with babies. I've seen men with babies babies drive men crazy They want to work while the baby that that is Drive men crazy the constant is but aren't you Aren't you missing the factor that It's um also increases the likelihood that the the household is going to be broke No Not if not in a society that's more equitable, which is the whole point But I talked long enough. I want to get meaning on this You're saying it's sustainable for any industrial society to give both maternity leave and paternity leave For the same I imagine be roughly the equal amount of time in your view. That's ridiculous Yeah, because a lot of times when that Is provided that um, you are going to stay at that company longer. So I'm sure you know It's a lot cheaper to maintain employees and to hire new ones, right Wait, wait, you're saying that you believe that there should be both paternity and maternity leave for an equal absolutely That that that's not sustainable though and other countries do it Which country Germany doesn't Germany gives in Germany is not industrious Germany gives an equal amount. They get like six months, dude For both men and women an equal amount of time. I'm not sure it's an equal amount But obviously it's significantly more than what united states gives on either end To clarify this point In front of just to clarify this point a bit some countries do it where it's split between the family So this family can decide how much time they split and other countries do it's a mandate Some countries do a mandatory and some could just do a 50-50. I just all I want to say I'm turning my mic off Okay, if any countries are doing that that's extremely unnatural and frankly bizarre because everyone knows with any amount of experience That men actually do not need to be around New newborn children as much as women do it's not just for newborns If it's mistated, I'll give you it blank a blankly that men do not need to be around their kids as much as Okay, but what about taking care of their wife? For example, if she goes if she got a cesarean, um, that's like a That's a good. Okay, but that happens taking care of someone Who's sick and has no one else to take care of them in a traditional society Okay, but that happens right after you have in a traditional society Usually it's the extended family that does that the grandmother the aunt what if you don't have that? Well, okay, then you have it then you have an anomaly. Let me finish this grace. You're right we don't have that we don't have traditional communities anymore because The role of patriarchy it seems like is diminishing and those two are intimately related actually So if they die that's related to like if you just don't have like family that is Yeah, the the the decline of traditional communities is happening for the same reason that there's a decline Of a masculinity. There's a decline of an acknowledgement of the necessity of a patriarchy Okay, so you want to change subject? I don't know. Um, what do you what do you feel do we want to change subject here? I just mentioned As you said, well, what if she has a cesarean section and she needs someone to take care of her traditionally She would have an extended family women primarily so her husband I thought I thought the traditional masculinity would be that The husband takes care of the family So shouldn't he Of course a woman who's been through childbirth would be better to be taken care of by other women. That makes more sense It's more natural This is cool to intuitive nature is kind of beyond what the actual discussion of the topic was supposed to be But that's just my opinion I mean, I'm learning about Yeah, he's right. Yeah It is a direct example. This gets down to the heart of the matter Do you guys admit that there's differences between men and women? For example, it's much more important than women much prefer everybody agrees well to be with their kids in early childhood There is do not prefer it The argument wasn't just about you know infancy It's childhood in general and the paternity leave is not just just after the birth in many countries It's up to two or three years old and so what we're talking about having this equitable time for For fathers to spend time with their children it improves the relationship between the father and the child It improves the child's well-being it improves the relationship between the father and the mother Etc etc etc etc the idea that men don't want to have any of this in their lives the idea that men Any i'm not saying not any i'm saying much much less. He wasn't done I'll simplify crowdsorted would that have been a sustainable policy like in world war two or something for soldiers? No, I already I already said that the material conditions have changed significantly between the time that patriarchy came to existence And today possible anymore emergency crisis or not possible anymore an emergency crisis is Is still possible But the idea that now it can only be men that are fighting on the front lines because we have to wield giant fucking Swords and take off people's heads. It's just not the reality in which we Have a more we have more technology that allows people to bomb people from other Other sides of the fucking planet and that in allows women to actually do these roles as well I'm also interested in what you gave the example of germany because it's like first of all the fertility rates in these european countries are very low So having a kid seems like an exceptional event in the first place I'm also curious in the data as far as how many men actually take six months off of work after having a kid in germany I'm actually curious To to answer that question because I kind of know it off the top of my head It's going to be generalized to europe in general men take a little bit less time than they do with with The women do but not much. I think it's like 20 tops Well, I'm not saying having the right to take off the time like do they I'm saying they I'm saying like Comparatively women take a little bit more time off with the family than men do and it's around 20 or so tops So that women take 20 percent women only take around 20 percent more off of work when they have a child than a man No, just not when they have a child because there can be complications But the the maternity the maternity and paternity leave isn't just right after birth in these countries It is I think it's up to the age of three. So that can be spread out throughout the entire person's To participate out those years. Yeah, that's different. Okay. So to be clear about what I'm talking about um Europe has a lot of policies that allow their workers to take time off for a lot of things vacation These kind of things But what I'm primarily focused on here is when you have just given birth, right? And you need to take time off not only to recover but actually to like Take care of the baby the infant for a period of time And the issue is that in a lot of work environments with which much less flexibility Then in the case of Europe you can advocate for that if you want but When someone suddenly has a baby, I don't think men can just I don't think it would be sustainable for a man to just be like You know what? I just had a child. So I need to take like three years off of my job. I don't It's it's like it's not three years. It's like something like six months and you have to spread it out There's there's different rules and regulations. It's sustainable in germany because germany has an extremely low birth rate. It's it's an It is falling Something extremely important though, even if we are to believe men get six months paternity leave in germany I'm not sure about that a hundred percent by the way Um, because people are saying they googled it. It's only two weeks, right? But you're saying that it's spread out and It's spread out depends on the country. I don't want to focus on germany. I'm talking about you need to appreciate the fact that Getting pregnant if you're a woman Is much more it's much more necessary to immediately take time off than if you're a man And that's not we're not talking about some prolonged period of oh, you get Fridays off every other month or something and I'm not talking about that. We're talking about paternity maternity leave specifically Okay, would you agree that pregnancies interrupt? Jobs in the case of women more than it does in the case of men Sure, but that's not the argument because is that is that unjust or should it be the same? I'm sorry to say that again. Do you think it's unjust that female pregnancies? Um, interrupt jobs for women more than that's natural Okay Well, that's what we're trying to say here One of the possible reasons why women would want to not be hired Over a man is because of that possible interruption. Yeah, but that pot. That's a possibility That's not every single woman is not going to get pregnant as you said the entire the the germany's got a Because those women have been masculinized But that's not anti patriarchy and so they they masculinize women and then women don't have kids in the entire The entire country declines. How is this pro women? How is this not how is this pro page? How is this anti patriarchy? I don't understand this whole this whole that's the whole tangent of an argument It doesn't really make sense to me right now because we're basically trying to say that even in your ideal circumstances of a meritocracy It's probably likely that there's going to be a lot of scenarios. You would still continue to describe as patriarchal And and that's not that's extreme. No, no, so so okay I got you so to kind of answer that bit of the question I would say that in a society that generally pushes men to do things that they don't want and women to do things that they Don't want is an unjust society whether that is that's social what we're talking about Right, you just made that point in germany. They push women to work Which most women don't really want to do as much as men and they push men to stay home with their kids That is an assumption That's an assumption Your system is the oppressive one the system you point to The one where you have freedom I think you're being a little bit vague when you say want Are you talking about immediate wants or wants that some I am talking about what a person I'm sorry wants that you would consider to be reasonable for someone in the long term that yeah Sometimes society does have to take responsibility for children would want to just eat candy all day rather than spinach It's a combination. I would say a combination. So so like I'll give you an example. Okay, this is a really superficial one. It's just very personal But it can be applied to other things Um, do I always want to go to the gym? Not really, but I do it anyway, right because I know in the long term it's better for me So men oftentimes don't want to do a lot of the things that the patriarchy makes them do But that doesn't address the question of whether or not in the long run It's actually better for them men might not want to have to like defend their families in a fist fight And the moment of it, right? But that could be the difference between losing your family and not losing your family when you have to defend a woman Could do the same thing. I mean, that's not true When I say the same thing I'm talking generally here you said fist fight so we can take this to a gun or whatever else I'm saying it and they're gonna end up doing You even you even pointed out that female cops with guns against me are less likely to pull the trigger Women are less violent and confrontational than men are so yes men It is something that the patriarchy enforces on men that they have the duty to protect their family Okay being protectors and I don't think that's unjust. I don't think that's oppressing men I think that's something that's good for men and good for humanity in the long run Even if in the short term You it may make you uncomfortable It can raise to the sense of injustice in or not injustice to say God words injustice when it is done taken to an extreme where people that are not naturally predicated To do these things are then forced to and that is what generally Yeah, like women that's generally what things do but this is assumption that you're saying okay, so grace I say One sec just before it goes off the rails hold on one sec is one person we haven't heard from for a while Let's kick it over to nina Then we'll come back to you grace then we'll go back to anthony We were just on the assumption hold on. Oh, seriously grace is then we'll go back to infer infrared last All right go ahead nina Yeah, I don't want to drill too much But like yes everything that you and haas have both been saying are assumptions You don't have any data to back up what you're saying You're just saying like random shit about how you feel If you're gonna talk about like common sense, that's literally what an assumption is That's what you just think is the case that is an assumption That is common sense like no come on. You have to have data to back up your shit if you're gonna make claims like that Um, so yeah, go ahead and go uh Dean crowd was going next No, I think I was supposed to go next Okay, is it an assumption to say that men are physically more powerful than women? Or is that common sense to back that up? Obviously, okay Okay, is an assumption to say that data and Data can be biased both ways common sense like I know okay. I could be by the bit Wait, there's a consensus though typically when it comes to data Look, here's an assumption. Here's an assumption we can all agree on. Okay. You don't need data for this Women generally in the workplace are distracted by the fact if they have kids They're distracted by them and they're focused on them and takes away from their work, right? Even if it's not like newborns, right? Generally women are Going to be concerned about their kids, right in the workforce Generally, or are you saying that is basis women are going to be thinking about their kids how they're doing in school Their emotion taking care of them. They're going to be concerned with that and it's going to take away from their focus So you're implying that men don't do that, right? Can we just agree that for women that is a problem? Okay, that is why most men prefer to hire other men That's obviously true So you think that men don't do that don't think about their kids Okay, do you know what being maternal is? Do you know what being a mother is it's called? Okay, you just need to answer the question. Do you think that men don't do that? I don't think they do it nearly as much when the children are young. No, the women are connected to them Do you have any data to back that up? Okay, I would assume that men do care about kids I've seen my family right my mother had six kids. I've taken care of those kids I've seen the way my dad interacted them and my brothers when they got older, okay They do not have as close of an emotional bond with the kids. It's common fucking sense. That's what mothers do That's an assumption based on your assumption. That's reality. That is reality So what does it mean when a mother breastfeeds her kid? What does it mean when a mother breastfeeds her kid? So that's just equal to the man's emotional bond The mother has a deep bond with the with children in early childhood Obviously, they are literally taking food from her breast. It's intensely They're connected. Men don't have that. Okay. So obviously there's a link between mothers and children That men don't have until the kids get older. Can we agree on that or are we not in reality? I don't see any stats on that. So Oh, do you need stats to prove that women breastfeed? Do you need stats to prove that? That's not the point that you're making Not that I was making at all So you don't think breastfeeding creates a deeper bond And men can't statistics on there You need you need statistics to figure out if breastfeeding creates a deep bond with that child A deeper a deeper than just like like loving your child in early childhood Do you think that men just can't like love their child? I don't know You keep straw manning. You keep saying oh, so men can't love their child I'm not saying that I'm saying it's much more personal intense and deep and so they love their child less That's literally what you're saying. I'm not straw manning. You know, it's just in a different way It's closer with the mother in early childhood and then when they when the kids get older generally You're closer with their father more you're saying more so that implies that one is less You know, I'm winning. You can keep trying to deny reality Okay, that's obviously breastfeeding a kid creates a closer more intimate relationship Okay, and men can't do that with I don't necessarily doubt that but I'm just saying that's something that you need to like have Oh, I need to have statistics to prove that having a kid sucking off my breast is not going to be having to make it more intimate Than a man with a kid. I need stats to prove that if I was cradling a kid right now I need stats to prove that that's more intense Can you just get in contact? Is actually statistically a huge way to bond with your child and that doesn't require you having titties Yep, but obviously because women naturally we have stats on that Sure, but but but women obviously skin to skin that's not common sense to people though is my point Obviously, you should be physically Well, of course you should cuddle your kids and be physically close with them But if most of society you're denying reality and then you say well, I'm losing the argument I think we're getting Nina your argument is just your point of view is incompatible With how any civilization how families would function in any civilization? You're trying to say that you need to consult some kind of pretense of impersonal data by an institution Which you just admitted was just based in consensus and therefore in some sense can also just be How data is structured is subjected to the same scientific consensus Right, but dr. Fauci was scientific. Look how scientific data was one person how scientific It's an example of a scientific authority being abused, right? We can't talk about the name that cannot be spoken. Oh, right. We can't talk about that See listen, um how data is structured is subjected to the same amount of human factors as the Sacred relationship between an infant child and a mother which you're trying to Dismiss because you don't think there's data behind the fact that Women when they breastfeed their baby, that's creating some kind of like Fundamental like primal sacred bond you could say haze. That's just your feeling but the book has to She needs stats. She needs stats If we're human beings engaged in communication The book has to stop somewhere like you have to call a spade a spade You can't just sit here and say That we don't have a special connection to our mothers because there's no stats that confirm that I don't need stats Nobody I know who's an actual sensible normal human being Need stats to confirm that they would die for their mother in a way they would die for no one else That's a human quality we have And if if you don't understand that because it's not being translated in some kind of so-called Impersonal scientific language, I doubt you could even function as a human being living the life that you live at some point You have to understand and acknowledge we have to talk about common sense. Otherwise all language becomes meaningless And so I understand that apparently you don't believe in um Any of that that obviously was not my point, but I think that we've been on this point for too long So, um, I don't know if you want to get back to the topic here I'm just saying that empirical data is important No, you said you needed stats and you said anything I say without that's what empirical data is No, you didn't say it's nice to have empirical data. You said I need to say it's nice. I think it's important to have it Okay, you didn't say it's important. You said when you're making an assertion Unless I have statistics that it's an assumption. So you said you it's necessary not that it's important Let's jump over to which is obviously ludicrous for you to make a claim. Yes, it is necessary Okay, so for anybody to make a claim they need stats to back it up All right, hold on. Do you have stats to back up that claim simmer down grace? We're gonna kick it over to anthony. Where's the stats to back up your claim? We're gonna kick it over to anthony Yeah, so I think nina's point on this wasn't so much about stats or anything else like that It's the point that's what we're actually trying to get at is whether or not there is a if that assumption Of the woman being distracted at work is going to actually negatively impact the quality of work Or if that could actually have a positive impact of the quality work because they want to make sure they can get their job done Faster than a man does in order to get back home to their kids and be with them on a more regular basis Now to talk about a little bit of thing that might be considered patriarchy by some people But I don't consider it patriarchy is the the notion that some women actually work a little bit less than men Because they want to spend time with their children. This is a empirical fact that exists within the data of the The gender wage gap if you count for job to job hour to hour minutes a minute whatever title to title All those things that you can think of it's roughly 10 percent of a gap and the majority of that gap It happens after a woman turns 30 because that's typically when they have kids So this is to back up your point grace, but let me finish just for a second here But what we have to talk about here is whether or not that is going to be Everybody's position and whether or not that is going to be a generalized position enough to where we can say This is actually what we should have we haven't gotten to that. We haven't made any kind of argument to that I can't let you get away with this though You said well, maybe if you're distracted during work that actually is helpful This is the problem. You guys are just not living in reality Obviously being distracted and not focused at work. That's is going to be detrimental to your work Okay, so let me let's do this. Let's do this reticle. Let's do this rhetorically then, okay Say I am a person that really super cares about my kids and I want to spend every single waking hour that I can with my kid But I have to make this bread So what am I going to do? Am I going to sit there and agonize over the child while I'm at work or am I going to be like, okay This child's in my mind. I want to really get with my child. I'm going to get my work done early So I can take out early today Do you think that is more likely to happen than a person Neurodically thinking about their child and getting distracted every two seconds to the point that it negatively impacts their work What do you think is more likely to happen? Well, okay What I'm what I'm saying is that women women do not prefer to be in work Look, if I had a kid and I know you're going to say this is anic This is just me or whatever But this is true of most women if you have a kid who's in preschool You'd rather be with that kid than at work Knowing that that kid is getting taken care of by somebody else is going to Is going to emotionally bond with somebody else and think of them as his mother. That's true That you're gonna that is the common sense assumption that is based on a whole host of things things that you can't tease out sociologically That's also true of men It would also be true of men that they wouldn't be happy that their kids are being parented by somebody else But it's super true of women because they have that emotional But if it's true of men and it's true of women Then what we should seek to do is have meritocracy where the family can to make those decisions themselves And have an issue and have the bonding and everything else instead of just saying hey, man You're you're a man your job is to go and make the bread Hey woman your job is to go and be with your kid and there's nothing else we can do about it But you assume that somebody's enforcing this It doesn't matter if it's in men don't want to be around little kids and women prefer to be around little kids But why you have to ask why I don't think that's why Why do women breastfeed? It's natural. I don't want to tell you Breastfeeding isn't natural. Okay. No, that's it's just not relevant Here's here's the issue that i'm seeing women can breastfeed when you talk about meritocracy It doesn't seem like you're actually referring to some like Institution doesn't seem like you're actually referring to something professional You know formal or at the level of law. It seems like you're referring to something at the level of culture Yes, we're talking about culture. Okay. So you're in your view men are pressured Uh to fulfill roles that in is in the immediate moment. They may not want to and you're saying by adopting meritocracy Um, we are going to do what just have men and women do everything. They just feel like now Here's not whether or not they feel like they're still social I know I'm just gonna cut you off right here. So Wait, wait, you run on a big spiel. Let me go. I have to make it. No, I know But I just want to get to the point I have to make an important point Okay, I have to make an important point here Which is that the issue with that is it's missing the factor of wisdom Men and women adult men and women don't have all the answers to life But the best we can do is listen to what our parents say who have experience listen to what their parents say who have experience There's people who came before us who had experience sure that Patriarchy you're talking about that's cultural is really in many ways. You can say in some ways It's not well in many ways at least it's the result of that generational experience So by depriving grandma The right to call her son a pussy for not sitting in and defending his wife Right because this is what we're talking about here. You're depriving that man The wisdom of the generations that came before him Is no depriving if a man is put into a situation where he has to be the breadwinner and the protector And he's like, oh, I'd rather play video games instead And then his mother steps in and say you're a fucking pussy go out and work and do this job for your for your wife You he may not like that, but human beings are not individualistic atoms that grandmother that mother of his Is giving him generational wisdom passed down from generations That has allowed human beings to cope with the various contradictions of life So when you say this is patriarchy, it sounds like what you're actually saying is We want to wipe out all of these organic human interactions across generations and basically replace that with what everyone doing No, it's not anybody doing whatever they want. There's still going to be social responsibilities The question is as are those social responsibilities better for an individual To follow a generalized norm, which we're talking about in this debate is patriarchy Or if it's better for an individual and in their social circles to come to an understanding whether that they Themselves are going to be better taking care of the kid just because they're a man and the woman's going to be better Going out to work and doing that and if you have a society set up in such a way where every single person is pushed to fulfill a very narrow role in society you are You are inherently taking away the talents from everybody else because you are pushing people to do things that they are not Naturally inclined to do the guy that you're talking about sitting on his ass Eating fucking starburst or whatever while playing video games and not with his wife Well, that guy is a piece of shit, right? But that guy's not a piece of shit because patriarchy isn't kicking them in the ass He's a piece of shit because he's a piece of shit Why why is he a piece of shit though according to your own logic? Because he's not doing anything that is productive in general. He's just sitting on his ass And he has a he has a child that he needs to take care of and that child he can take care of in numerous different ways But if he's sitting on his ass and not doing anything What if he wants to hold the baby in one arm and play xbox and the other and he tells his wife Go out and work for us and provide for us. Is that fair? That happens? I don't know. Is that going to be better for that particular family? Is that going to be a production? Well, don't you think it could be kind of a don't don't assume things about me, please I did not make any assumptions about you Come on Don't you think that could be kind of abusive and unfair because granted women when they're at home raising the kid? sometimes they do They're it's like a 24 seven thing But sometimes they take all the rest they can get and you know relax or watch tv Yeah, I'm not not and You know a woman watching tv with her kid and the man going out and working seems to be something fair to most of us But if we swapped that role, do you think that's the same and that's that's also I would say that what we should do as a society if that role is swapped That should be looked as fair because that is the that is the ability That is what that family has decided to do and it works best for them So let me talk about a little bit about myself Hold on. Hold on. How do how does the family know if it's the best for them if they're inexperienced If they don't have I have a personal example. I can give you do you want to hear? Yeah, go ahead So I have a severely autistic brother. He is uh three years younger than me So he is uh currently 35 He cannot take care of himself when my mom and dad were together and find out that he was autistic My mom was not capable of taking care of him properly Not just not doing it. She couldn't she couldn't watch him as well as my dad could all this other stuff So she became the breadwinner of the household My dad was the person that took care of us now. Did he do a great job? Whose parents do a great job, you know, whatever like it doesn't matter to the to the discussion But the point is is that that is what worked for our particular family He was called a lazy piece of shit my entire life without anybody Understanding what our family was going through my brother would run into the street He would climb out windows There was a day where my dad went out to get groceries and my mom was with us My brother magically managed to call a A window that was above our kitchen and almost break his fucking neck If my mom was to take care of us in the way that you are prescribing I don't know what would happen to us But since it was my dad, we were actually Pretty much. Okay. So your dad made the decision to take care of you. It was not It was a decision reached by the family But if we're talking about patriarchy, which is what a sociological system is that would then end up breaking my dad down as being Makes more sense. Why can't he decide like because the patriarchy would make fun would make fun of him demean him Etc etc for not I don't I don't agree with your example because it seems like in this case The necessary role of the father staying home and you have to have thick skin I'm not going to insult anyone but you have to have thick skin because you brought it up in the debate Necessary role for the father in this case would just be restraining the strength Of your brother, right? Which your mother would not be able to restrain him in the same way your father could No, no, it wasn't it wasn't like that It was it was myriad of other different things that I don't want to particularly get into Okay, we'll just say example you gave that's supposed to be sensible to us. It seems reasonable It's it has nothing to do with strength. It was other things. It wasn't strength Ability seems reasonable to suggest That it takes a man to be able to restrain Uh, you know someone who wasn't it wasn't a restraint thing, please. I know that you're saying this is reasonable But that's how you made it sound. That's exactly how you made it It was about watching paying attention to the paying attention to us It was a whole host of other different issues that I'd rather not get into I really don't want to get into your personal life So whatever example you're going to use you have to give us the reason why it was more I did it was ability. It wasn't strength though. It had nothing to do with physical problems he had the ability to um Make sure that your brother was not getting into dangerous situations Correct in a way that you're in a way that my mom cannot correct nothing to do a strength though If this is not just based on strength, I mean, I think it would be reasonable to suggest that um That seems to be an extraordinarily exceptional circumstance. I agree. It is an exceptional circumstance But but right whatever that mysterious reason is that exception should not be elevated to the status of the tier It's not the norm. The problem that we have is that the generalized norm of what the patriarchy is of what we're talking about Would do it would demean my father and take away his dignity Well, actually, no, I think the patriarchy was patriotic crowd sourced I just think you're kind of underestimating how Communities on an organic level are capable of adapting. I am talking about my my family's experience in uh in the midwest Which was very much following what you guys are talking about in the 90s. That's an exceptional thing, right? That's what comes with it. I I think people should be more understanding of particular circumstances But you cannot expect to erase generational norms Just because your family happens to be an exception. It's not about race in generational arms It's about creating a society that allows people to do these things I do want to before we go we have to go into the q&a really quick here Yeah, so infrared if you want to wrap this point up really quick in terms of the last rebuttal like and then I want to get a chance Right after that. I want to get a chance from each nina and grace is I think they had each Both want to put something in the last couple of minutes. Go ahead infrared. Yeah I would say like it's a shame that most people probably don't have the time or the energy to be More understanding and have a closer examination of certain irregular situations than they should But that's what makes those situations irregular If people are ignorant and just have a blanket kind of prejudice over something because of only a number of factors Though the woman's the bread with or the man staying home um That is not necessary I mean all you could really ask for people to do is to be less judgmental and more understanding But what you cannot ask them to do is to reverse the general expectation The general norm and it is a general norm that the man should be going out and working and providing for the family That is not what's incriminated here The thing you're trying to incriminate is just people's lack of being able to be more understanding of specific situations Generalities are not things you just apply dictatorially to every situation General tendencies generalities. They're things that um Are what you call the rule not the exception You got it any last thoughts I view is that it's really pithy anthony I can give you a quick response and then like I said nina and grace that one here from two But we do have the q&a coming up So you also may have chances to get kind of those ideas if you have any lingering points you want to make During the q&a is there's a pretty good eclectic mix of questions But any last thoughts nina and grace before you go into the q&a? Yeah, I mean Okay, nina first Okay, um I just want to the haze there It really just sounds like you're saying patriarchy is when no patriarchy because if you're saying that people should accept that That's not what the patriarchy encourages the patriarchy encourages condemning what he's talking about So it really seems like for one that you really don't actually want to side with the patriarchy And you don't really know what exactly you're talking about here. Um, it's a little confusing on your you I'm doing Did I talk to yours? Did I talk to yours? I think you did yeah Not your most recent one. So let's go go ahead nina and infrared. Let's give her a chance to wrap it up We give you a good, uh, I don't know what it was maybe two minutes or so nina if you want to wrap up your plan Yeah, sounds good. Um, I won't go down. I just have a a few more things to say just um the surprising lack of Statistics and just feels over reels is Amazing to see it really seems like you're just cope posting because you didn't really know what the fuck you were talking about And you didn't really come in here with actually doing any um Having any arguments Okay, you're still doing you're still doing it's okay now I can talk over you too. It's fun. I can talk over you too It's not a big problem. I know you love doing the talking over thing Um, and I think that you really just as you do with most of your arguments You just kind of say things and you talk over people you go you do your, uh, what is it? You're not your gishgall at the uh What's what's your word now you can talk what's the word that you like to use? I know vosh has been using it recently and and I heard The word is uh absolute domination of the opponent is what you know Where you were you when you said like you talk when somebody talks too much That's it. Nina. Keep going. Go ahead. You talk way too much. No, no. Okay. What is the word? You said it multiple times and just forget it. I know the word is womanhood You guys just like love talking and saying nothing Okay, you kind of you walk into that one. I'm asking you. I don't know what I walked into I'm asking the question what you've been doing this whole time and he responded with that so I've been absolutely dissected. What is the word? Just drop it. You get really mad. Do you get really mad? It's not gishgallop, right? It's the word is infrared hop. All right. We've got to go to grace next grace. What have you got? Okay, first of all, nina your whole thing about stats is bad faith because crowdsourced gave a personal story And we took it seriously. We didn't demand that he give us stats and say like that's not real Okay, secondly, I have a similar situation to crowdsourced because my mother Also has serious problems parenting and serious issues with her femininity But I don't blame that on an oppressive Patriarchy, I would say the problem there is a personal problem that actually is That actually comes about because of this feminist society where women are not in touch with their emotions They are not encouraged to be feminine They are not encouraged to be mothers and therefore they end up leaving people like me and crowdsourced in situations Where the mothers can't deal with children, which is extremely Extremely bad for society. It's a huge huge problem and autism whatever you want to say about it Like that's on the rise because in some ways because of lack of Emotional bonding when the when the children are young. So the patriarchy would actually help with that problem In the patriarchy in the sense that men should follow their natures and women should follow their natures And with the men should not be feminized and women should not be dykeified. Thank you Any last thoughts nina? I know you guys you got kind of short you got cut short a bit by the infrared hop there at the end But is he hopped into action? What would any last thoughts nina? The I just everything that you've said grace is just so insane I would love to actually have a one-on-one conversation with you because I just I don't know if you're just like trolling at this point because you're just like so ridiculous You just said I'm sorry. What did you say dykeification? Don't know what the fuck that means I think that masculinity and femininity is clearly A social trait if we're not talking about like physical features And it's very stupid to think that Those things have not changed over the years being masculine used to be Being very emotional and crying a lot and like showing you your strength by being passionate on things like being masculine Used to be wearing a lot of jewelry being masculine used to be wearing Dresses like these things have changed and they will always change. That's just how social things work And I think you just don't understand that Has his masculine crowdsourced is not and that's never going to change Oh, come on crowdsourced was he was pleasant this whole time. All right, we're gonna. That's true. He was easy I have to be honest Crowdsourced we appreciate you man grace. I mean that I mean infrared masculine. Come on really Look at him over there I'm kidding infrared I can't take long here man. Seriously. I'm sorry. I want to give credit because like I said Uh people maybe know originally zirka's name was on the title as well as fredrick We couldn't bring him in because zirka didn't show. I don't know what happened So I don't want to make a judgment. You know if something came up. We got an accident or something, but Infrared was willing to jump in early. So to give him that credit and also I appreciate your beard CSP I appreciate all of our guests, which is why right now. I've got to tell you folks Nina and Anthony aka crowdsourced politics and grace and infrared are all linked in the description. What are you waiting for? You've heard a good two hours almost of their views You can hear more of their views and even if you disagree There's a real intellectual wholesomeness and maturity and wisdom About genuinely understanding people that you disagree with. So even if you don't agree with their positions, that's still a good reason to go there We're gonna jump into the q&a. I want to say thank you for our guests. We appreciate you guys It's been a lively one, which I appreciate too I'd rather have you guys be passionate Which you have been tonight rather than boring because that's just sad So this one from thunderstorm says patriarchy doesn't exist human nature does Plus Nina is wrong and grace is right. Wow. You got a fan. Is that ben? Is that your dad? All right, we'll go over to say that about every super jet that's positive for me. Nina. Do you have any thoughts on that? Um, we really wouldn't be having this conversation if that was the case. Um, it clearly is if I mean, it's just it's like a theory You know, it's not like it's a again Everyone wants to think it's like a person or a system of government patriarch is not a system of government is just a system and it's a pretty dumb to think that uh, that doesn't exist Think same words don't exist juicy infinite slick says another great panel modern day debate Thanks all credit to our guests By the way, if you're listening via the modern day debate podcast You can find our guests linked there in the description box for the podcast episode They say another great panel grace thorp won the debate. Wow. Oh my gosh It's like ben has all these soccer cards. They say She is such a young talented. Oh my gosh. Here we go Fertile. Wow. Okay, and they say and young I didn't make that interesting. They really say that and young beautiful lady Wow, you know what? Let's see. They at least said They said talented so that encapsulates being good debater. They said she is going places unlike Oh, jeez. Come on. Nina's sitting right here. See she's going places unlike Nina I'm glad my I'm glad my fertility came through during the debate. That's this very good. Thank you This one from coconut cream pie. So, you know, it's good based on the name They say the patriarchy debate is irrelevant. Okay. They say the oversaturation of selfish Values over communal values in western culture is the actual issue. What are your guys's thoughts? I mean, it is a problem, but I think uh, I think I think uh, you know You want to talk about the problem of capitalism? I think it's the erosion of patriarchy, which is the foundation of traditional communal societies uh, patriarchy's again Are based on specific Communities governing and ruling according to traditions and established norms across generations and the man is the authority that safeguards that whereas the capitalist society seems to go into the tendency of Flattening out all of differences in order to commodify everything about our human interactions So if you want to talk about the decline, I mean individualism is an example of that, right? If you could just be an individual and just play video games all day and do whatever you want to feel like hedonism, that's what capitalism promotes as opposed to traditional values Which are communal having to listen to your mother or your grandma Or your father or your grandfather and so on As far as how you have to run your life You do have to be subjected to some kind of communal opinion and communal pressure I think uh, you know, they're not incompatible. It's not just the problem isn't just capitalism It's also the way capitalism undermines patriarchal authority Yeah, I'm gonna have to absolutely disagree with haze on this one. Um, it's he's right about like how capitalism kind of like Tamps down on certain traditional values, but capitalism and traditional values are not axiomat or I'm sorry Yeah, axiomoronic, that's the word I was looking for There they they've existed while both structures have existed capitalism is simply a structure of The economy and something socially that promotes, you know The material wealth of individual of people over communal bonds necessarily So that's not necessarily eroding patriarchy. Patriarchy is can exist in a capitalistic system And so can traditional values can give us in the capitalist system Well capitalism turns men into other men's wage slaves. So and yeah, so this patriarchy Patriarchy Patriarchy would encourage men to to own their own businesses for their own families and to be self-respecting instead of you know But there's no many questions this one from made by jim bob says Crowdsourced politics if a true meritocracy was established, what means of force would you use to maintain and preserve it? That's a good question I'm not actually one to like to use force in order to maintain systems just in general. So Now that isn't to say that I wouldn't use force in defense of them against people that were actively trying to tear them down Through nefarious means whether it's counter-revolutionary people or whatever else it is people are trying to be violent, etc So I guess that answers the question if it doesn't hit me up later on twitter or whatever You got it this one coming in from do appreciate it Also want to say folks if you have not yet hit that like button if you've enjoyed this debate I'm a firm believer hitting a like button really does help in terms of this video being recommended to more people So especially if you thought your side was more persuasive tonight Which pretty much everybody does on everybody every debate. We want to say hey hit that like button and more people will see it Made by jim bob says If men were in fact superior and favored in most scenarios Wouldn't meritocracy and patriarchy be synonymous if not how so I would say that assuming that that was the correct Way that's you know humanity is set up Yes, and I've already conceded that point to grace when she said it, but I don't believe that that is The case I believe that there are various systems social cultural economic or whatever that Perpetuate there the unjust the injustices that we we experience You got it. Thank you very much for your question. This one coming in from you guessed it made by jim bob Oh, wait, there's actually guys Godzilla 37 says Nina. All right. Come on Ryan see No, it was It's actually not that bad They say how many cats do you see yourself retiring with do you like cats nina? I have two corgis. No cats No cats. Well, I live with somebody who has a cat, but it's not my cat Ha take that gordzilla this one from ryan see says Nina you celebrate your freedom in the u.s. Yet the constitution was written by A patriarchy. How do you support the claim that patriarchy is oppressive? Well, obviously they meant or they were very specific on when they're I guess vague if you want to say it in whichever way you want to interpret it about it being able to be changed So I think that they were actually pretty forward thinking that they were very patriarchal at the time But they knew things were not going to change And that goes for like pretty much everything that they wrote when we're talking about like the um constitutions about them They were supposed to be a living document You got it. There's some coming in from do appreciate it Coconut cream pie says fathers need to be with their kids. Obviously anybody disagree with that Farrah, I mean fia fia vascans Salos, let me know if I pronounced it right. It says as an rn and chpn myself Why do you think there are very few men in hospice care slash or they say Is it a nature versus nurture thing? Hmm, that's interesting. I think hospice I think hospice care requires a deep level of empathy and sympathy and compassion with those people and I think men are more inclined to sort of Logical medical procedures like surgeries and stuff like that whereas women want to help people who are close to death in hospices They they take great joy in helping somebody taking care of them. It's more of a relationship than it is just a medical procedure That's what I would say I see so I think fia's original question you interpreted it quicker than I did was why is it that hospice workers giving care to those in hospice Are overwhelmingly female that was the question. Thanks for clarifying that grace Do you want to answer our side? Yeah Well, I mean if we're talking about like hospice, I don't really know any specifics about it, but I assume it's mostly nurse work We're not talking about like, you know doctors and obviously a lot of um, a lot of nurses are actually, uh, you know immigrants that are Coming coming through and taking the these these jobs to And a lot of them tend to be women because men tend to do other jobs when they're working towards that one We're talking about immigrants. That's a little bit. Um be on the pill here, but I Don't really think that really means anything if anything I would imagine because a lot of them are immigrants It's more traditional like like Hispanic immigrants. They're more traditionally related to family And it's a cultural thing that works for them. Um, I'm sure there's a lot of other aspects to it I I don't know the details of that particularly But if we're talking about again like nursing in general, obviously the nursing profession is very much dominated female So that kind of just tracks directly. I don't know where the hospice comes in There's there's going to be as pay disparity depending on the level of level of hospice that we're talking about It's just administering a medic medication. Those are Generally not, um, those are orderlies that can administer Medication in some states and that pay is very low. So pay is going to be a factor of it You got it. Well, how would pay be a factor if women want less pay? What are you saying? Men technically Seek like one would say men typically seek out higher pay more competitive, etc And so if there's a system designed to pays people like shit And and then it has a certain level of stuff. They're gonna do different things Yeah, to add on to that like are you kind of proving our position? Okay, let me go on with that. Let me let me go with that. I understand what you're saying But like if we're talking about there are patriarchal values that like is as we were saying like traditional, um Uh people who are traditional are probably less Um interested and going after the highest paying job. They're just trying to get a job because they um are not In that position where the structure of their family is not that they're being the main breadwinner So the structure of their family is that they they're just getting the job Does that make sense? But why do the female immigrants go for the hospice work if we just even if we say it's immigrants Why do the female hospice house? It could be cultural. It could be cultural This isn't necessarily The patriarchy oppressing them is that a form of the patriarchy oppressing no, that's I would assume that that's their freedom of choice But I don't I mean this has nothing to do with patriarchy. Well, so why would women want Why would women choose to be hospice workers and the male immigrants would choose to to go for higher paying jobs that require more work There's cultural different. Yes Go ahead There are cultural differences that exist across nations, correct? We can all agree on that and some cultures are more patriarchal than other cultures And if it's a large number of immigrants coming into the united states They are going to view that as women's work and not seek it as often But I just asked nina if that was oppressive and she said no, that's the women's free choice So how does that work within the oppressive patriarchy? Is it free choice or are they being oppressed by are you saying mexican culture is oppressive of women? You have to move to the next one pretty quick here Okay, um, I just think that there's cultural values and you could say that there's aspects of patriarchy to them But I don't think that your values of maybe you want to have a traditional like as long as both people agree to it That's fine And maybe too white liberal privileged americans shouldn't be so quick to just judge somebody else's culture and say that The women are being I don't think either of us said that they were being inherently oppressed We just said I said do mexican does mexican culture oppress women and you went Which is you're implying yes No, maybe you shouldn't maybe you shouldn't maybe I think you're reading into it. I think you're reading into it. Come on We're gonna jump into the next one from vile van goh says this clown parade Wouldn't exist if it wasn't for thousands upon thousands of men with guns What does that mean? Okay Like you repeat it. Is that supposed to insult everyone they say this clown parade Especially haze and his hat they say wouldn't exist if it wasn't for thousands upon thousands of men with guns I agree Well, I fully agree was that uh Well, I mean, yeah, men with guns, but also women who support those men men and women are symbiotic You can't take one without the other But yeah, it's true. Ironic that you're saying that now because that was part of your opening. It basically means What did I say that men and women don't work with each other? It basically means when you're outside enjoying yourself at a cafe The one thing that's preventing Some crazy naked crackhead with a hatchet attacking you is ultimately men with guns You have to call the police and if he's powerful enough call the national guard to rein him in That's all that, you know, that's all that really is it's men with guns who defining who gets included and excluded from the community And that's why the country can't be flooded with everyone from around the world It isis can't come into america and just start killing everyone because there's people at the border with guns Every community you're in even if I go on even if I go on trying to come and kill Even if I go on the google campus, they'll probably ban me from these big tech places And I want to go like debate some pussy Yeah, it's ultimately the law that's protecting you from me. Yeah, it's force Men use force to decide who's in and protect people from other men So it kind of seems like the men are the problem a bouncer at the club is the guy who's preventing A crazy, you know, naked crackhead with two baseball bats from running in and beating the shit out of everyone Whether or not those people deserve it men have physical power But it really seems like, you know, as we know The men are more likely to be that so the men protecting us with guns are protecting us from with From men that have guns. Listen, you can't live in a society of just females. It's a there's men and women in this world That would be crazy. I don't know why you would live in a society of just men. I don't know if that's just what you're interested in That's fine. I'm not saying I'm saying Whatever the causes men with guns is patriarchy. Did you know that? No, this one's okay. Yes, it is. Anthony does not agree. Yeah, so this is coming in. Stop pouting. Can we have fun? Jesus? I know you lost but I mean come on. I don't think I lost at all This one from the moderator based says grace is smoking these fools like those cigarettes She's so sexually destroys Wait, do you destroy? Whoa Not j. What is it not? Lay geno says grace won this from the opening statements. Wow grace. You have quite the fan base out there They say coconut coconut cream by He says common sense are expected norms or actions within a given environment social or otherwise I don't know who that's supposed to support but I mean, I think I know is like but Sunflower says Nina is lashing out against the world Because she's suffering from inner pain. Is there some deep inner pain that you're Trying to compensate for or by lashing out at the that's what this person is They're uh, it's a little bit against the patriarchy, of course Juicy gourdzilla 37 says Nina. Wow say without a single doubt most If not all children will cry out for mommy Long before daddy common sense is a thing in all caps Okay, so if they spend all their time with their dad, you think they don't cry out for daddy Anti-gto highlight literally missing the entire point Hold on. I have to move fast. Anti-gto highlight says the 27th amendment states quote unquote Women shall not have the right to run for any public or elected office. How can we fight for? How can we fight against this horribly sexist law? I'm for a meritocracy I would say women should be able to try to do whatever they want same as men But I think it will naturally fall into a system like in scandinavia where women take more feminine Jobs and stay with their kids and men take more leadership positions. It's it is a great You're gonna have all these people talk about how you're winning. I feel like that doesn't make any sense I feel like you should stop mumble. You're not gonna crush the patriarch anytime soon with that tone of voice I'm sorry. Do you need me to talk louder? Saying if people Then it doesn't seem like you are making your position clear or arguing for it correctly because if they think that a Patriarchy is the good thing then why the fuck are you talking? So once again, you're misunderstanding patriarchy as the oppression of women the enslavement of women the subjugation of women All I'm saying is that men are naturally the leaders that doesn't mean women don't have immense power and have a voice And things just like that. You're bringing it to matriarchy. So if you're the best one here Probably shouldn't have been me or you my guy. We're going into iron horses. He says for infrared. Wow infrared Say do you agree that it's not okay to beat your wife with anything thicker than your thumb? Rule of thumb is right, right? Come on iron horse. What does that even mean? Amelia says says for crowd Says for crowdsourced politics Are you trans male says how come you fall to site studies and stats for everything in relation to societal Roles for males when you pushed on specifics for these metrics you're unable to recall specifics I don't understand what being trans has to do with it, but no I'm cis And it's just where we end up preparing different things for just and it's a debate I'm not going to remember everything. So if you want specifics again, hit me up on twitter I get it now iron horses. It's a iron horse. I think he thinks that you're a muslim And he's saying I I guess he's trying to I just don't want to get into a debate on islam iron horse Maurice Smithville says Nina, how would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast today? What? He said, how would you feel? I don't get it. How would I feel if I didn't eat breakfast? I ate lunch. So I I mean I'm sure I'd be fine. Are all of you high like these questions I just want Amelia says I feel like that's an inside joke that nobody understands Oh, is it I don't get it. I don't know. I don't get it. So this one from coconut cream pie So so patriarchy Is enforced values on the masses? Sure, that's now society Always how it always worked Patriarchy is a catch-all term to a set of values that somebody doesn't like Therefore irrelevant Yeah, I mean I can understand that kind of position, but I don't think that's what anybody here was actually arguing It's whether or not that that patriarchy in and of itself can be A just system or whether or not there's other ways or other systems that we can implement That are going to be more just than the current one. So there you go You got it This one coming in what part of our system is unjust towards women You have to back that up with some kind of an example Actually, this question is relevant. Defreak says how is everyone or anyone on the panel oppressed in any way? Exactly except these two are oppressed by me and has winning. Obviously they're pouting I'm not pouting A little bit You guys seem sad My back hurts Sit up straight. Let's see some smiles people. Come on This one coming in from Marsha Everett says males have been have naturally taken over because they're stronger But that doesn't mean everyone else was happy about it. I don't choose to be born female Let's stick with the first part women women love strong men. That's not true women love strong men and violent men It's hot. I don't know what to tell you it's nature This one aren't complaining Coconut cream pie says true meritocracy can't happen because the different humans adapt better Different environments. There would have to be a perfect Flat environment Sounds like they're approaching race realism there. I'm not gonna lie Well, they're talking about meritocracy unlike their environment. I mean That's it's more of a meritocracy argument than a conversation about patriarchy Coffee mom says patriarchy is based on the idea that biological sex is binary But our sex is bimodal not binary. What should patriarchy do to update itself? Bimodal not binary. Nina. Can you explain? I don't know that what do you mean? Well, binary means one or the other so it can only be one or the other bimodal is The fact that it could be a combination. Um, like for example intersex people Intersex people exist. They're not very Not masculine. There's no masculinity in that whatsoever Okay, sure, whatever, but if we're talking about sex, you can't deny Is that intersex people exist, right? That's like wait hold on before we get into that. I it's like it's like the most rare It's true. No Okay I hate to do this, but just because Because I was able to hold on it just because like I mean I see the context I think what they mean by a shush wash or uh Ha That was like a genuine Freudian slip, this is uh, I don't know why but this is uh The context of the super chat made me think like bimodal as in like like camel humps The distribution where you know, you have kind like like Nina was saying you have like people in the middle But more so that like bimodal it means that like most Are either male or female and then you have like a smaller number as the distribution goes toward the middle And as it goes further out from male and female. So in other words, binary is just referring to the humps to answer the question binary doesn't say like You know, there's no such thing as a more effeminate guy or a more masculine woman It's referring to the fact that your frame of reference is ultimately going to come down to whether you're talking about combinations Or spectrums within those the ultimate frame of reference is these two humps, right male or female There's you can say there's things in between you can try and argue there's combinations But it's always going to go back to those two terms Right, but bimodal just means to the term reference to the terms that ground the different orientations Which is a generality just because there's exceptions doesn't invalidate the generality. Okay, but no, but it can't be a binary if there's exceptions That's just by definition That's why it's bimodal. Yes, sir. As long as we are I don't think we need to argue over this. Can we just move on? Okay, so you lose Did you look at the definition? This that's uh, if you define the terms correctly there can be a binary here I hate to do this, but we have to they say uh, this one's sort of tanky They say Nina gonna need some stats on that. I don't know what they're talking about though They marshal everett says people's prejudices like graces in parentheses Prevent people from doing things they don't traditionally do That's what we don't like about patriarchy True well, that's absolutely wrong. I want men and women both to be happy. I'm just saying patriarchy is essentially meritocracy It's just a recognition of the natural order of things that doesn't mean obviously. I'm up here on a debate panel. Obviously. I'm not super traditional, but I'm Obviously pretty good at it. So You know, listen to the question though I'm I'm not trying to force anybody to do anything But if I came up here as a woman and I did a terrible job I'm not saying that's because I'm a woman, but yeah the meritocracy I would be kicked out and most women are way worse The debating than men that is true This one coming in from Let's see. It's just a recognition of how things are Or but doesn't mean that there can't be Given it was originally We're gonna move to the next one bite me xd says happy friday everyone wishing you all a relaxing weekend with perfect weather God bless. Thanks for your kind words bite me Jan r says How is it practically possible to quote-unquote remove patriarchy? It's impossible I think it's I think it's gonna happen over time. Anything equality is the removal of patriarchy. What are you gonna? What are you gonna? What are you gonna replace it with egalitarianism? Meritocracy egalitarianism, whatever. Okay. Okay, but okay, so but there has to be a leader, right? There is no functioning organization that doesn't have a leader. We sometimes that person is going to be a woman Sorry, okay, but most of the time are men better at being leaders. I don't know that Do you have thoughts on that? There are different ways that men are men Okay, we can take it back to sex ed class. Do men Give and women receive that has nothing to do with patriarchy. There's plenty of gay men. You understand that, right? That has nothing to do with what i'm saying. I'm saying men are the source and women are the receivers That has nothing to do with this argument this debate. Yes. Yes, it's a red herring Yes, it does. I'm saying there's a natural order to things A natural order to things doesn't necessarily lead to patriarchy I don't know what an erection is. I don't know what an erection is. Maybe it's the same thing as a vagina Okay, I don't know what that Uh First part of that sentence was but they said just let's see just a well lol says grace Okay, gosh Is really pretty and feisty. It's cute. You also seem kind of crazy. By the way, let's see patriarchy reign supreme, all right Ben noak What is the word they use sims? Okay, they say Nina. Will there be a rematch between you and grace? After any time absolutely Go ahead. Oh, sorry. No, no, you're good I don't know if I got you off with a question But no, absolutely. I would be I would love to talk to you again grace This one from Coconut cream pie says grace is hot equals winning. We got some simps in here Hey, wait a second. Wait, wait, wait. Me and Nina are both equally attractive. She is extremely pretty the differences I love men and she doesn't that's what makes me hot. Sorry. Wow Oh, so we gotta pick me here. I'm joking. Sorry men like women who love men. I'm kidding Anyways, um men's rights activists in the term that I I actually want men to not be Slaving under the yoke of patriarchy This one coming in from Marsha Everett says infrared you're so lucky you were born male where you get all the benefits Alpha ape suppresses other males from access to females Not happy Okay, what was the second part? They say alpha ape suppresses other males from access to males alpha ape With a p like a oh alpha eight. Okay. I see Do you like that? You're just like, okay fair enough. Am I the ape or what's going on? I don't understand I guess they say it's too late the debate for these kind of questions I'm gonna run folks. We can't take any more questions. You gotta get everybody out of here Uh, this one coming in from made by jim bob says nina. Do you do you think with enough Manpower you could destroy the patriarchy. Um, obviously men and women both uphold patriarchy So, uh, I don't really think you could do it with one only you can just destroy it with men You would need women as well. So both men and women oppress themselves. That's your stance. Yeah That was literally I've ever heard in my life This one coming in from If you're gonna do the oppressor oppressed thing you have to have an oppressor You can't say well, we equally oppress each other and ourselves. Yep culture can be oppressive This one from Okay, go ahead. Sorry name seven eight six one says should the federal reserve be abolished No Yes, yes, absolutely. Yes Get rid of the federal debate that's us later Again, we need to actually have a state run bank that answers to the people the federal reserve Is an open conspiracy of international bankers to hijack the sovereignty of our He's gonna go on This one coming in from I think that might actually be it. Let me just double check really quick The last one from Harold Sullivan says patriarchal societies today Secure the rights and dignity of women Iran Dprk, I should know what that means. I don't china and russia are examples Western liberalism equals only fans I mean, this is just appealing to a tradition where women's dignity is all wrapped up in their Ability to control sex and not Placulate the male gaze and be you know the w word. So that's I think they're maybe you could say I don't know what it is I mean, I don't want to be too right. We're women wearing burkas Based maybe we should just fucking do that Yeah Maybe I can teach this country a thing or two about honesty Overcorrect a little bit because it seems it went extreme in the other direction. Would you be attracted to a woman if she was in a burka? Uh, I'd be in a ranged marriage. Why do I need to be attracted to her? Yeah, he gets guaranteed sex But what if she was like ugly Well, I'm sure my parents will judge right and I could say no arranged marriages don't always Well arranged marriages are for status. So like maybe their parents were really rich. No, no I trust my parents. Oh the men the men can say no. That that's how it works Oh, of course. You have to remember that this one last one. I'll choose. I'll choose my song. I'm sorry. I thought you were done I'm so sorry james But last two actually coconut cream pie says race realism No, I'm saying people have unique traits abilities or downfalls. Why are you bringing up race? All right Well to answer that question is because there was a mention of environment in there and how environment plays into that And that's the thing that That's a lot of race realists say when they're talk about where people's cultures come from the land soil, etc So if that's not what you meant, I apologize. That was a poor assumption on my armed and I will do better This one from steel star gazer says i'm a bit older But the 20-ish guys Like me because they say girls in their 20s have terrible attitudes and ideology and constantly thinking They're so much better than men Is this cougar gonna show you guys up grace and nina? I'm sorry. Can you read it? Yeah, I had a woman brain moment. Can you say it again? They say i'm a bit older But the 20-ish the guys in their 20s like me because they say girls in their 20s Have terrible attitudes and ideology and constantly think that they're so much better than men What's the point? I don't think most I don't think almost women my age think we're a lot better than men I think there's a problem that like the society values male traits So we feel like we have to be masculine in order to be respected like aggressive sort of all that stuff and so we kind of We become masculine ours ourselves and then I think I think men find us less attractive But I don't really think there's a big thing where you realize that those aren't masculine traits And you'll realize those are just traits of people that get respect This one from marsha everett says you say patriarchy comes from nature So look at nature the ape suppresses the females and The other males grace thinks females should like it But it is obvious the males don't and I say some females don't like it either Yeah, well, well, let's just say the human ape is a little different from the others Um, you know, we're not literally talking about the observed behavior of chimpanzees and gorillas one for one Also, human beings have a soul. Those are things those animals don't have that's why we have Societies that's why we have traditions. That's why we have spirituality You know apes by the way do incest. We don't do that. It's not instinctually Correct We human beings have culture they don't have culture So, uh, we're not just talking directly about nature, but the way culture mediates nature And the two are not opposed to each other You're just basically saying we should have no culture if we're gonna make an argument and reference to nature Just because we call something natural doesn't mean it doesn't have a spiritual or cultural Uh quality to it, you know, so I would say you're where you're coming from Any last thoughts on that last question I'm gonna ask what does what does that mean when you say that it's spiritual Uh, generally what people refer to when they mean spiritual is things that pertain to the soul. I'm asking you You're asking me or someone else You I'm talking to you. You're personal things that relate to matters of the soul or the intellect or the mind Or of culture or of art. These are all things that refer to spirit Spirit can also refer to motion Matter in motion the way the motion actually changes The established forms of the material world So that's what spirit is. I know you thought it was a gotcha question But I completely fucking nailed it and hit it out of the park. So Make it cold, but okay We didn't really make any sense. That's that's the sound of surrender. We have to tell you folks Our gaster linked in the description. What are you waiting for? You can click on their links right now We appreciate our guests are the lifeblood of the channel want to say very thank you very much nina and anthony grace and infrared It's been a true pleasure to have you tonight and folks Go into the description box right now and find their links. You can keep listening to them Whoever you enjoyed most now's your chance. You can keep listening to them by clicking on their link below One last thanks to our guests and thanks so much for all of your James are you are you wrapping up? I just want to say one thing really quick My friend is hosting an after-show on the channel zoomer debates We're gonna have people on and keep discussing this topic if anybody wants to come over there. Just wanted to throw that out there You got it Okay, cool. It's called zoomer debates z o o m e are just links me on You got it. Thank you very much and with that folks. I can't do an after show tonight But I will in the future. So I'm going to cut it I want to say thanks everybody for being with us. Keep submitting out the reasonable from the unreasonable We'll see you next time at modern day debate Thank you everybody. Bye