 Hi, Bula and welcome to our democratic development in Melanesia webinar series, webinar three. Apologies, we will be starting officially in the next five minutes. Please bear with us. We should be getting this sorted very soon and starting. Thank you. We also just give a small background of our speakers. We've got William token from Trans International Transparency International. And we've also got William Nassac, the chairperson for Van Gogh, Van Wattu Association of Non-Government Organization. I understand that we are all waiting anxiously for the topic intrigue and corruption in Van Wattu. We are just waiting for a moderator to join in and then we should be getting it all started. This apologies for my end, apologies for my international idea. We will be getting this started in the next two to three minutes. Thank you. Hi, hello, Bula and welcome to International Ideas Democratic Development in Melanesia webinar series, 2022. This is our third webinar in the webinar series. It's on intrigue and corruption in Van Wattu. On behalf of International Ideas Regional Office for Asia and the Pacific, I would like to welcome you all who have joined us this morning for the second webinar, for the third webinar of the Democratic Development in Melanesia webinar series, 2022. This webinar series is part of International Idea Asia and the Pacific Regional Program Work Plan for 2022. The webinars aim to provide opportunities to citizens of the Melanesian region to take part in the substantive discussions surrounding democracy in Melanesia. It is also intended that through the webinars, citizens of Melanesian countries who participate may gain knowledge on the subject matter and on the experiences of other countries. This will in turn enhance debates on institutional and procedural improvements in their respective democracies. Why we are doing this webinar series? Transparency International 2021 Corruption Perception Index reveals the need for urgent action in the Pacific to address corruption. From Fiji to Van Wattu, Papua New Guinea and the Solmans Corruption is threatening the rights and freedom of Pacific islands. Positive efforts are being made by the Pacific governments and leaders to tackle corruption, such as the adoption of the Tail-Naiwa vision by the Pacific Island's foreign leaders in 2021, and the passing of key laws nationally. But the Pacific needs more significant actions more quickly to ensure progress translates into results. With a score of 45, Van Wattu remains stagnant on the CPI high value, vulnerable to the impact of natural disasters. It was hit the hardest by Cyclone Herald at the peak of COVID-19 pandemic. Since its independence in 1980, Van Wattu has been politically volatile. The frequent motions of no confidence filed against the government, political instability has contributed to an environment rightfully by bribery, nepotism, and misappropriation of funds. In a positive development, the country is taking steps to engage citizens in public service delivery with the aim of improving efficiency and effectiveness. However, implementations of the necessary legal policy and other anti-corruption frameworks remains a challenge. For example, difficulties with the implementation of a right to information right. Concerns over timely fulfillment of information requests to ensure reform such reach across the islands to support and engage remote populations. The government needs to build up a stronger partnership with key civil organizations. We have some households, the webinar will have two speakers who will deliver their presentation first and then the audience will have 30 minutes after both the speakers are presented to ask questions. Audience can use the right raise hand feature to ask questions. The audience are reminded to keep their mics off during the webinar and only on it when asking questions. Also, audience can post questions through the chat feature. We also have a disclaimer. The statement views or opinions expressed in the presentation do not necessarily represent the institutional position of international idea. It's Board of Advisors or it's Council of Member States. Thank you. We'll give the floor to Mr. Willi Token, who will be starting first from Transparency International Vanuatu. Thank you. Thank you, Vikash and the team at the International IDA. Thank you for giving us this chance to articulate on this issue of democracy in Malaysia, especially in the point of view of the NTO or CSO. So thank you very much and I will start with the, I will follow the notes that you gave me. So can I have my first slide please? Yes, Mr. Token, I'll share the screen. Okay, thank you. Let's have the second one please. I'm sorry. Okay, I just want to start by giving just thinking a little bit about CPI, Corruption Perception Index. In my understanding, this is a perception of corruption. It's an index to indicate that whether it's going up or going down, whether we're fighting corruption or not. A lot of people sort of ignore it as a foreign as a perception of corruption in Vanuatu. But having been with Transparency and CSO in Vanuatu for almost a decade now, I have taken a different view because I think it actually means a lot. So even though it's just a perception, when people try to discuss it, sometimes they dwell under what perception, so maybe it doesn't carry much weight. But when you combine it with the global corruption barometer like the one we had last year, it actually means a lot. If anybody has seen the global corruption barometer of last year, it actually shows that governments in the Pacific and the then countries that were surveyed for the global corruption barometer, they actually have a lot of work to do to fight corruption. And then, you know, like I said, when you're on the ground and you see, you see things like cyclone harrow or cyclone bomb assistance being targeted to staff of the NBMO or the health staff of health instead of going to the community. It actually begins to make sense when we talk about the importance of CBI. We actually have people, even though senior aid coordinating people in prison now, or some were prosecuted because of the corrupt activities when sorting out assistance during this event. So it, we shouldn't, we shouldn't just say it's because it's just a perception, sort of put it aside. When we combine it with the global corruption barometer and that when we see things happening on the ground, it actually means a lot. It should be our warning to governments and privates and the people that we have a lot of work to do to fight corruption. Can I have my next slide please. Thank you, because, okay, so from 2007 until 2021, with one or two has been stagnant around the lowest was 29, but it's been around 43, 44, 45. We're going to be launching the 2022. And I'm with what we have, we have seen happening in the community and in government now, I'm looking forward to something be a little bit higher than 45 of last year. But like, because I mentioned it earlier on, it's, we are not dying, but we keep repeating ourselves that the government needs to do some work. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. And we're not improving or we're going up and down along the same from between 43 and 45, 46. It means that we are, we actually sometimes we take a step forward and we take a few steps backward in the, in the way we tackle corruption. And it's even an incident in a lot of ways. Sometimes, transparency for not to is, is very bland about it, we sometimes that we are, we remind the government that, you know, they make a comment makes a statement that we need to do this, and then something happens. It seems like we've all been saying that, you know, when you say something you have to do it. You have to do as you say, you don't say something and expect other people to do it, and you do the exact opposite. So probably this is, I will touch a little bit more on this but this probably the reason why we are hovering around this 40s and never going to 50 or 60s like countries, other countries have done. Thank you, if you guys can have the next slide please. Okay, some, some of the factors, and this is not exclusive. This is something that we talk about on a daily basis with transparency, and William will probably a little to some a little bit early on. And it has been around that some people have been saying that one or two is, is a champion in signing international conventions on anti corruption work and the human rights and people's rights, but enforcement is a big issue. And like I said, we go and sign things and we look, the one or two looks like it's doing a lot of good things. It's on the right direction. And then we do something that takes us one of the two steps backward. So I'll just name a few here, weak anti corruption institutions, we have the audit department, we have the office, we have the financial intelligence unit, we have the big CSO organization that William heads vanco. We all talking in, you know, at the beginning on the anti corruption work and the corruption issues and human rights and other rights. But actually, implementing things or getting things forward to prosecuting people or revealing thing corrupt activities is, is not happening like it should. It has a lot of a few things one is sometimes these institutions are weak, because financially, they don't have the capacity to sort of do what they should do. For example, the ombudsman office does they don't have the capacity to even go out and only recently they're doing it but in the past few decades or so, they cannot even go out and tell people what they're supposed to be doing even accessing the services is a is a big problem for non ordinary citizens or this is what I mean when I say weak anti corruption institutions. In other words, civic education, I think William will mention it a little bit later on, but a lot of people. Excuse me. A lot of people 75% of the population of one or two live in the rural areas, only about 2025% live in the urban. Okay, right now we have put social media so information is going out. But actually going out like we do, or CSOs do, William, like I said, William wanted you a little bit more. And actually, giving correct and updated information to the people in the community is still not adequate. So a lot of people don't know the don't know what's happening in the lab. So, you know, we have we might have corruption, where we have state ministers, prosecuted and sentenced people in the community don't know that. So they keep voting for the right people for the same people to come to go back to parliament so this is why I mean when we say I say, in other words civic education, it needs to be strengthened. And it needs to reach out a little bit more from it from experience and transparency. I keep telling the government transparency volunteer workers and civic educators, they go to some places that government services don't go on rich. In these places, they reach they see government officials every four years when they go to campaign. And when they go when they bring the ballot box to vote for the people to vote. So this is what I mean. On the third one lack of protection or whistleblowers. Yes. Last year, if if you, some of you can recall, we had a bill passed in the parliament called libel bill. It needs still needs to be tested. The president has some, some merit transparency road to the president requesting him not to sign it into a law, because it goes against the constitutional rights for freedom of expression, but the president went ahead and signed it so it is now low. People, some people are still scared to whistleblowers even though we have the RTI act in place now to give some protection to whistleblowers. It is not enough. So a lot of people are afraid to talk out to speak out against corrupt activities. Now, we come and turn the ring system when you have this perception from our donors. It is, it is this plays a big part in it, we come and turn the ring system on the ground. I can tell you that when, when you are the minister of public infrastructure and public utilities. You're the most powerful person in the, in the government. Even though they have a tender board, the German of the tender board. A lot of things. It's a favoritism is, is practice. So you have. I have been to many conferences with community leaders who are who come to the leader of opposition and question him on why they said there's a government. There's a government structure in the village, but the politician will go and I would tenders to a political support us. So, this is one one thing that one transparency and I said one or two ones to tackle next year to see how the tendering government entering processes is done, and if we can improve on it. Number five, there is a lack of enforcement or financial management legislation. It seems that, you know, for example, a former prime minister two years ago. He signed and he prepared his government prepared a fun. For a road, road maintenance, road, road work on one of the islands, his island actually so he knows how much money was appropriated by the government and passed in parliament. Last week, he, he's still an MBA you went and he was surprised to hear that the amount of money that was supposed to be for this road work was 80 million. So he was shocked because the amount that he knows that was appropriate for this work was around 170 million. So you have to question where did 90 million, what to go. So this is what I mean, you know, there's a financial management process. And it actually, it should be strengthened it's very weak now that's why we have all this corrupt activities going on. One big issue that has always been has actually put some people in, in jail is public servants, people working from the government handling budget handling a fun funds coming from overseas. They actually own businesses on the side. So a lot of times. They work with that business isn't it's called what nepotism or favoritism, and a few people are actually in jail now because of these corrupt activities. And number seven, I cannot miss that out. Some of the factors behind all this corruption is political favoritism. You know you belong to a political body, you you benefit from it. Thank you, because can I have my next slide please. How does political instability contribute to corruption. You know, I've been asked this question a lot of times, especially when we have a cultural practice in one or two. But when somebody is doing a function like is organizing a wedding or there's a third in the family, everybody go and contribute. But nowadays it's this practice is sorry. Nobody else. When you have a problem, these people come around and help you as well. It's called reciprocating. But nowadays, this practice is abused because it's only practice during election time, campaigning time. It's actually more like bribery and vote buying than traditional and cultural practice that used to happen before. But, but it's a big issue because our people in the community they have respect. You know, last year I we were on one of the islands and after we talked about bribery and vote buying and you know you shouldn't be receiving this kind of things from politicians. You know, the chief of the community stood up and said, okay, but you tell me I shouldn't vote for this person, but he gave me 5,000. How can I not vote for him. You know, these people have a lot of respect. So it's a big issue. Civic education is important. The importance of voting and voting for the right person. And also, my number two, two point is inappropriate appointments to post in government and statutory bodies. We are in a lot of problems with our national airline now because there are people in the on the board who are making big decisions. These people are not qualified. They are qualified people there who are accountants or economists or people who have done a lot of work in the airline. So right now, our airline national airline is in a big prime minister calling a mess. It's a big mess because of the management. So you you wonder why these people get appointed to dispose if they're, if they're not qualified. It's not just a government post, but even in, in public service. This is saying among our public servants sometimes when something goes wrong with it we say wrong place wrong person in the wrong place. Sometimes the post is advertised. Many people applied, even the person who sometimes who was not shortlisted, finally gets appointed to the post. So, these are some of the things that are cost contributing to corruption. But this bit getting these people there is because of political instability. You know, it's whoever gets into power manages to get all these people together, get the support. And that's how we are, they get into power. And then my last point is lack of law enforcement. I was talking to a public prosecutor last year, or beginning of this year. You know, maybe because he's a foreigner he's dealing with cases from 1980s. And finally, he's spent about four years here now so he's finally getting things done, because, you know, complaints and not processed. People, people get away with corrupt activities. You know, we, we hear of the last few months or so we hear you, you might have heard about plenty of our director generals being moved around. You know, it's sad, because, you know, if somebody does something wrong, they should be removed or penalized. Instead, they move to another position. So you wonder how he's going to perform in another position when he cannot perform here. So, you know, in transparency, we say no to corruption, no to impunity. If you do something wrong. You should be penalized or you should be removed. It means you're in the wrong place. Thank you. I might be going on with time. So I think it's that my last slide because yes. Thank you very much. And I will, I'm here to answer any questions that I can. If I don't have answer, then I'll let you know that I can find the answer. So with that, thank you very much for your attention. One talk really. Thank you very much for that wonderful presentation. And it's, it's caught quite a lot of attention because I have on my list now about five questions already for you. Some of them very specific to the points you just made earlier about the need for civic education and the need for better awareness. I am going to keep these questions until after Mr. Nasak has spoken just to try and consolidate our Talanoa period for as much as possible. And just before we go on to Mr. William Nasak, who is of course our second speaker, I would like to apologize on behalf of myself for the technical difficulties that delayed me coming online this morning. Just in case it hasn't been done already, I'd just like to thank everyone for your attention. This has been quite an exciting webinar series, the third of a series aimed at encouraging substantial conversations in our Melanizian region so that we can find ways to address the difficulties we face in and around anti-corruption space. As my colleagues at International Idea might have mentioned earlier, this is this webinar series which started a few weeks back is specifically aimed at enhancing public discourse and international conversations in the hope that the institutions that exist in our Melanizian countries might be strengthened and so we are very fortunate that Mr. Toccon has been able to speak quite substantially about the challenges that exist in Vanuatu because we have covered Papua Negini, we covered Solomon Islands and this week of course we're looking at the situation in Vanuatu specifically given Vanuatu's Corruption Perception Index with a score of 45. So to talk to us further about that and to give us an explanation for why things may be the way they are in terms of where Vanuatu is at, I'd like to welcome our next guest speaker Mr. William Nazak who is of course going to speak about the position on the index that Vanuatu currently holds, the kind of reforms that may be taking place and whether or not they're enough and what role or what impact the civil society organizations in Vanuatu have been able to make but also looking at some of the difficulties that they're facing. And like I said we've got quite a lot of questions that have come in, so Mr. Nazak we're going to go straight to you now and after that come back to our talent law, welcome to this webinar series Mr. Nazak. You're currently still on mute sir. Good morning. Okay. Good morning. Basically with findings that has shown that Vanuatu on the Corruption Perception Index. Well, the views are that it shows Vanuatu still has a serious corruption problem. By saying that it means Vanuatu has done some progress in fighting corruption, but I think it gives the idea where we don't want to be too high. I have to actually give a view that Vanuatu has still got a lot of work to do. And I think it also gives an indication to the to the country as a whole that we need to work on what we have done well. And we have to continue to strengthen those process. And our internal process and I think another thing is that we should look at our legislation. We need existing legislations to maybe do a gap analysis. So that we can identify gaps, loopholes, and then try to strengthen the existing legislation. On the view of what is what reforms have taken place. And if they're adequate, we have recently passed in parliament a right to information act. The government has now taken the over the responsibility of looking at the leadership code, the annual returns and also looking at the management and admins of public institution. We also have a decentralization act. And what I'd like to say here is that there is a will political will to address corruption corruption risk and we're trying to look and improve our transparency accountability. In private sectors, public sector, and by engaging communities. However, the government needs to take a critical step. It can be. It has to continue to drive the drive what it's doing in a consistent manner. And how does the civil society organizations went on to aid in fighting corruption. Most government legislations have been amended to include Vango as a board member, and we currently speak out about advocating on issues that affect the communities. Before I jump on to the next slide I'd just like to say here is that as a civil society umbrella organization. We can't be jumping up and down and talking about corruption within the government. We can't get ourselves in order. And in that, I'll move on to my next slide. Our internal governance with the which has been a big obstacle in for NGOs and CSOs fighting for fighting against corruption is that we have a very weak governance structure. I think. As an umbrella organization has been has suffered the also with our malpractices and part of the corruption. And that has actually limited van go and actually fulfilling its duty as an umbrella organization. It has limited resources and currently with a new board that has been appointed. We need to actually strengthen van go to be more visible so that it can carry out its duties as the umbrella organization, and it is the view. It is my view that if we see something wrong within the government in the public sector. Before we start talking about how they should what they've done wrong, it's best if an organization like van go looks within itself strengthened its governance structure and shows that it has the enough resources, so that it can actually make a difference. And that is how I view van go if somebody is supposed to be holding public servants to account for the money that he spent, then I believe that van go should be the voice that should be carrying it. I'll be standing in that position to fight with that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your presentation on talk I listen with interest on what what I understand is the difficulties that exist even within the CSO sector in one or two so it sounds to me like both these gentlemen have a very good understanding of where the difficulties lie and on that note I would just like to encourage our participants all of our the audience here today please use the Q&A feature to send in your questions I am also of course taking some of my direct message, but just to give you a run through again. Dr. William Tokon is of course the Chief Executive Officer of Transparency International Vanuatu, a medical doctor by profession with a stellar career in the medical field but who of course ran a civil society career alongside his medical career and is now Chief Executive Officer of Transparency International who give us a very thorough and comprehensive presentation looking at what the context is in Vanuatu what the kind of difficulties that they go through the reality of corruption and the extent of it and maybe some of the barriers and that exists to in terms of the difficulties they have addressing corruption but he did give us, you know, a bit of insight into where the solutions may lie and that is of course in civil education and Mr. Dr. William Nasak, I want to talk to my apologies if I haven't got an updated introduction into your background but as I understand it, he is Senior Education Officer in the Ministry of Education and Training in Vanuatu dealing with policy development. So lots of education, lots of training in and around the corruption space, but he does come to us today to talk about what it means to be number 45 on the corruption perception index of the world and like Mr. Nasak mentioned, that position is kind of midway, not too bad, not too good but the alarming part of that rating is that it has been stagnant and as you know when you work in the anti-corruption space, you really do want those ratings to improve and Mr. Nasak of course brought us quite a bit of insight into the difficulties in terms of corruption space within the CSO and the NGO space in Vanuatu, so quite a lot of challenges and so we will now go directly into the questions and we have a few that came to us using the Q&A feature, mostly at the moment directed them towards you Dr. Thakon and so for the rest of you who have questions for Mr. Nasak please feel free to send them directly to me or to use the Q&A feature which I am keeping a very close watch on. So Dr. Thakon, straight to you and please feel free to keep your mic on so we can have a more interactive conversation. The first question that I had arose from your description of the kind of population you're dealing with, that 75% of your population live in the rural area and the rest are urbanites and when you talk about the fact that in your professional opinion the biggest issue is the lack of civic education and the lack of civic awareness as to what practices may be and what people's civic duty may be. How much of the current work in your opinion is directed towards the rural people, those stakeholders who are working to raise awareness, are they customizing their programs to suit the rural population? Thank you. Okay, the, yes, about 75% of the population in the country live in the rural areas and only about 25 live in the urban areas. When we talk about civic education, William will probably can support me on this or can elaborate a little bit more on this but in terms of, I think the last two years the government of Anato has realized that it needs a civil society to actually reach out to these people. So that's why recently in the last two years we've been working, CSOs and NGOs have been working very closely with the government in some areas, like we combine the two 16 day activism in November December, like we're doing now. So actually, in my experience, one of the few things is, you know, like I said earlier on, a lot of these places people in rural areas. They see, they see common officials every four years during campaign and during election time. What we're trying to do and transparency has been trying to do and most of the CSOs that come under vanco and William is, we're trying to make sure that these people know what's happening. So we try to advocate on RTI, how to access RTI, get information, is there still a bit of issue with that, the RTI Act was supposed to be enforced by the RTI commissioner, the commission has not been appointed since the office was set up in 2017. So that's a big issue. So you have this 75% of the population in rural areas who do not have access to write and correct and update information. That's a big issue. So, as the answer to your question, we've seen some changes, we've seen some communities, sort of, that we have visited and they're asking for revisits, they're asking for more information. When we come to the office transparency office and get information, not that the big issue is the 44, 45 CSOs that come under vanco. These people do not have the capacity to do that. There's funding. They have to do printing. What we do is when we go to the rural areas, because we go once every three to three years, we need to leave behind printed material. We don't have capacity to do that. Transparency is trying to do it. Hopefully, when we have the full revival of vanco, we should be able to do that. So people have information on their hand for reference. So people cannot go and visit us from urban areas, politicians cannot go and give false information because they will have reference information with them. Does that answer your question? It does. It does. Thank you, Willie. And I think another question that arises from that, and I see a few of the Q&A feature questions asking the same thing. How much is social media being used to both directly address corruption or to do more proactive civic education awareness programs? And how effective is that? What's the internet situation in Vanuatu in terms of the access that rural people have? It's quite good, but most of the information on social media, you know, some of them are good, correct information. A lot of it is not correct or not up to date information. So I'm a little bit hesitant. There are some groups that I trust with the information, but a lot of information on social media is not quite, it's not adequate or sometimes it's not correct. So if you go to a Facebook page, you will probably get good information, but if you go down general Facebook, probably the information is, it can be questioned. Yes. Mr. Nassac, can I just bring you in at this point? As the chair of the Vanuatu Non-Government Association, as the president of the Vanuatu Non-Government Association, how effective do you think your members are using social media to do their awareness work, especially around civic duties? Thank you. I think the, let me just make a correction here. I don't work for the education. That's my son. I used to work as the, I used to work in the government as the permanent secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture. Then as the, then I was transferred on to the Ministry of Youth and Sports as the permanent secretary there. The deal with civil education, I would have to say that, let me put, let me paint a picture this way. When we were growing up, they said that if you didn't do well in school, then you would be sent to the islands. So you could see that most of the people who are successful in education get to go on further studies and they come up and they work in the urban areas. While most of the people who didn't do well in school, they were sent back to the islands and they elected most of the people back there which are within the government at the moment. And I would have to say, people can say that the education, but I think it comes down to a lot of factors. It comes out to the economic power for each individual. And whether they have that economic power to refuse certain gifts that are given by politicians. I think if they don't have that capacity, then they tend to accept it. And no matter how much we talk, people will still tend to go that time. Then in Vanuatu we call it beletics, meaning you talk with your bell, your belly. So I think that's something that we have to keep trying to influence. Thank you very much. I have a question for both of you. Are there some features in your culture and tradition, which kind of rationalizes corrupt practices. So for example, we, we've seen it in, we saw it in Papua New Guinea, we saw it when we discussed the Solomon Islands contact and I can say that even in Fiji there's some parts of our culture that make it seem that it's okay to receive this, as you called it William gifts or freebies is what we call it here in Fiji. And so you have that reciprocal relationship where you feel you have to do what they ask you, even if you know it's wrong. Can you tell us if there are some parts of your culture, indigenous culture that is like that? I think I'll go first before I'm Dr. Willie Tokon. I think all across Vanuatu, before you enter any village, this is token of, well they say token of appreciation and for the chiefs allowing you to go in there. But when it comes down to election you don't know what is handed over and the chief can has quite a lot of influence. I come from a province down south and if you could influence the chief then you probably would get all the voters in the village. Thank you. Dr. Yes, this is a common practice. It's a cultural practice. It's a show of respect. When you go to a village you go and meet the chief and then you do what you have to do. But we also have reciprocity in terms of if one man is paying a bright price for his son, everybody contributes and he sees what people bring. When another person who came to contribute is doing the same thing next year, this man will go and give the same thing maybe a little bit more, as I thank you for helping him. But you know this is a random thing it's usually done at any time. But now, it seems like it's becoming a practice every four years, people go and do this kind of thing. And the sad thing is that because these people in the rural areas have so much respect, like I said in I mentioned in my earlier talk. When they see a bag of rice or 5000 Wattu. And when I try to tell them that you know, they may give you money they may give you food, but when you vote, you fought for somebody who has integrity who is fair, who is honest. They stand up and say, how can you say that he came and gave me this, this thing, I have to, I have to vote for him. But and the other thing about what William said is. Actually, it's, it's, it's worse in some, some areas, when, when somebody goes and give something to the chief, and the chief is happy. When he leaves the chicken. We have actually has half cases where the chief can said, okay, everybody here. They have to vote for this man. And that was the number of people who will vote. If one person doesn't vote for this man, and the count comes and they say this village has nine hundred people, only 99 people voted for this man. What, what did the other one person go. So, it's, it's difficult for, for our people on the ground, when we have this traditional respect and. Can I just interrupt you there, and there's a question that came up, and it's very relevant right this moment. So, in a community that small, can, can the secrecy of votes and ballots be maintained, or is it easy then for the community to identify, you know, who hasn't voted according to the chiefs wheel, and are they victimized, does that happen. I was talking to the woman leader in Williams on Williams Island. And there was a case where this thing happened. And one woman voted for somebody from another village. And everybody knew. And the chief asked, she cannot say, it's me, or it's not me, she cannot lie. And the sad thing was, she was sort of a soldier, and when the husband tried to help her he was also a soldier. So this, sorry, William, but this is what I got from one woman leader from the, from the island. I'm sure it happens on other islands. You know that the husband will say, okay, you all know the chief has said we vote for this man. On my island, sometimes the family splits up and said, okay, you, you are, you will go and vote for this guy, we will vote for this person. So it's sometimes it's even though when we go to the communities, like we do with transparency, we tell them, when you are in a boat, the only person who knows who you want to vote for is you and God above. Nobody else, your husband doesn't know, but it still happens. It's like, it's an open book. Everybody knows who voted for this man, who voted for this man. So do they know because the election systems are not private or is there a fear that people will know. I think I will add here. The villages are so small. And people tend to know everything about a person who lives next to them. And like, why, where I come from is that when the chief says, okay, I have about 50 people, you 25 year votes for certain people, certain person, and then you the other half votes for these people, he actually guarantees that he actually tells the politician when they come to the Nakama during today meeting house, and then he already identifies who's going to vote for who. If in between now and you vote, then they will know exactly who voted and who doesn't vote. I think it's, I'm not sure how what do you call it but people tend to be followed. I think it's a good system for quite some time. And it's also to say that we don't disrespect any of the policies. If it comes late, if it comes later and then the chiefs would just, so you should have come last week I've already divided my village on how they will vote. Wow. It's very interesting to, you know, to examine the way that our cultural practices are very similar, I have to say, and also the way that they provide and drive corrupt practices sounds to me like this is quite a lot. What I've often had mentioned is quite a lot of education and awareness that needs to be done at the very grassroot level. So we've talked about how our cultural and traditional practices can drive corruption. But we found out when we dealt with Papua Negini a lot, and also with the Solomon Islands last week that there are also cultural practices that anti corruption, or that we can use to address the corrupt practices that we're seeing in our communities Can you tell me, are there any like that in Vanuatu that we should be highlighting or, you know, which provide entry points for CSOs to help to discourage corrupt practices. I would, I would say here that there are ways. And it comes down to a very strong leader in the village. And he should be the one who would be championing the civic education to educate its people. Then having very weak heads of village enables the politicians to actually influence them. In the village where my father is the chief and he actually tells people, you vote for who you want to vote. And you have no right to nobody has any right to influence you. And I always believe that it comes down to a very powerful person who stands up in front and then takes the lead and tells people what they can do and what they what they what they rights are. And if it's a big person, then I think the politicians will take the lead and they will tend to influence, they have the influence. That's my view of it. Yes, I, I thank you very much for that, William. I think that that's actually a very smart idea and one that is universal to the entire Malaysian region is just work with what you have. It's a leadership structure that's in place and for want of a better description infiltrate from the top, educate and empower our chiefs to know that it's their right to make their own decisions and that they can pass on that right to their people. So just to move away from this thing, quite a lot of questions on on culture and tradition, and how they can either drive or address corrupt practices, I'm just looking very quickly to see that there aren't anymore. Let's move on to the next area that that a lot of that the two of you have touched on that a lot of questions can come from and that's the public sector. So, there's a comment that's come from Teddy win CPI data in general come from each country's public sector. What is your opinion of view of corruption within private sector. I'd like both of you to to have a say, because I think the implication there is that private sector can influence public sector and I think if we're honest we know that happens in a lot of our societies. So tell us about private sector corruption in Vanuatu. I think I will start for Willie goes in. I think with all developing millions in countries. I would have to say that the private sector has a lot of influence in corrupting our officials. They get the bulk of the money. They get the bulk of the money for tendering contracts. You keep wondering how some people get the contracts, even though they go through a fair process. And then you wonder how certain contracts are done and they're not completed. And where does the money go was the money calculated accurately or did some of the money go elsewhere that I am not sure. But then it happens within my country. You see a road that has been spent it could be 100 million and then after two three years the road is damaged and then we starting to have another new contract and the same person takes the contract again. And you wonder how the politician gets to fund his election. And how he gets to have certain things within his constituency. And then you wonder, okay, this person has been working and under his leadership, he appoints people to evaluate contracts. And from the evaluation the person, the chairman of the tender board gets to appoint them, whether the tender board and the tender board is chairman is appointed by the government of the day. And so there's no fair if they or even though they say they go through the fair process. You don't know whether he was the best qualified person for the job or was he was he appointed to the job just so that the party could satisfy his needs. And I would say the public sector has a lot of influence. Because I say it's almost like a triangle the money comes out it goes to the private sector, the private sector gets to clear the money. Some for the contract can they say that you also have to show your appreciation for the person who awards you the contract. And I'm not sure that is done but I, I, you can see happening but there's no clear evidence of it happening. Kickback. What's your take is the private sector in is there a big corruption problem in the private sector. I think it is. That's why I was actually in a meeting on Tuesday this week. And with my with our funders in Berlin, and we transparency one or two would like to look at the few things next one is a tendering process, the government entering process. Who is the political party funding. And this. And we already have the annual returns, which is very good. Like I mentioned earlier on, some, some people have been prosecuted and sentenced for not submitting. You wonder why they don't teach the high government official stone one to reveal the annual annual returns. You wonder why. But what William must say this through the tendering process. In relation to that, the private sector drives drives the corruption in the government. I mentioned in March, let their own earlier on that plenty of plenty come and over sales especially senior officials they have private companies, they have construction companies, and these companies. And that the wives of the brothers names they get all these contracts. And it's very common. I mentioned earlier on about the road road work on the cost. That was supposed to be a cost about 170 million what to. When the former prime minister was there this last week. He had that he had the amount was 8080 million. So he was saying, he was asking in the teleports newspaper, where has 90 million gone to. And this is a common thing. What William has said is through these people get all this tenders, they do some work. Sometimes it's not complete. Sometimes it's completely but very, very, very poor quality work. So, when our heavy rains come in November to April by May, June, everything has been washed away. Especially road work and buildings. So, yes, these are things that need to be looked at and legislation strengthen, but it's difficult when the chairman of the bodies have wondered by the government of the day. It sounds to me, the next question has been to ask us around, you know, the checks and balance assistance within the tender processes and you know scrutiny. It sounds to me like you've already answered that question then so we don't have it at all. We don't have effective accountability and transparency checks within the government tendering system. So in terms of audits post project or it's just does the auditor general's office have the teeth it means to conduct its work do you think gentlemen. Like, can I can I just add here is that I don't know whether to call it checks and balances, but there is, if something happens when the government is in in power. And then he is, well, certain money have been used. And then during the term nobody would talk about it and when the new government comes in. They, they find out that this has happened. And then they investigate the appointed commission of inquiry to investigate. I don't know whether it's called with some checks or balances but I think it's mainly just to ensure that the primary doesn't get back into parliament to the power on on the auditor general I would have to say we need to strengthen our auditor general. Basically, he just looks at the, he just checks a few annual reports and checks what the, and then do the parliament sit down and they question people about what they should be carrying up. But in the annual report and that makes it, I think that's very weak, because it does not hold the public servants after sometime if you go to the public accounts committee for some time you tend to know exactly what you what is required from you so you tend to have it already. And if it's already then they won't even question you they will just basically tell you if the money was used there, or how did the money come in. But your people tend to lie a lot so I would, I would just leave it at that. That's a very deep look. I am. I'm quite, I don't know if the right word is amazed, but amazed at the situation there. And, and I guess one of the obvious questions we were seeing this happen here in Fiji it is to where the CSO community, the NGO community are demanding a role are better accountability and demanding a place in terms of the monitoring and evaluation of our public finance management systems so for example this year for the first time. In our version of mango, Mr. Nassac, I was able to get an audience with the Minister of Economy and the Minister of National Planning to be part of the budgetary process and to be part of the monitoring and evaluation process as an example. What is the situation you want to do CSO actors such as yourselves have a place in the public finance mechanisms of the country do you have a say in the way budgets are allocated in the way budgets are budget disbursement is monitored. Finally speaking, I think when you're not within the any of the government ministries then you basically not part of the budgetary process. You just learn about the, what budget is available that the government is appropriating for use when it goes to parliament or when the report comes three years after or particularly, and then you get to look at it but the budgetary, the budget process nobody is part of it apart from those who are within the public sector. Can you just make a comment here. Yes, this is very true. The civil society CSOs they are not involved with the budget process. So, actually, the last meeting we had earlier this year, we managed to get the one officer from the eight coordinating unit from the prime minister's office, and he actually came and told us, you know, this is the process. If you are, if you are doing this work, you can go to this ministry and talk to them about getting involved. But it's a, you know, the organization that's why we, we, we're working on a bank. Sorry. It's almost like an afterthought. It's not their normal protocol to involve you. Yeah, so, so, but hopefully, as we go, as we become stronger with vanco, hopefully we can actually request that, you know, our, our member associations, you know, they wouldn't, they should be involved with because they're doing work. And it's good now that the government has realized that it needs CSOs to do that awareness work and advocacy work on behalf of the government. But they need to give us that support, and they need to involve the CSOs and NGOs in the process of this so that we can be part of it. Vanco can be part of it. So there's still a lot of work to, right now we're not involved, like William said, but hopefully we come in the coming years, we should be able to get involved and become more effective. But we need that support from the government. Thank you so much, gentlemen. I think that one of the really exciting parts of this, this webinar series is being able to learn from each other as, as, you know, countries in the same region of the Pacific with very similar. Everything really similar cultural similar sociological situation similar economic situation but most definitely similar culture and traditions is that we can, we can learn a lot from each other's best practices and I'm hearing you. I'm hearing the frustration that you're, you know, facing and all of the challenges that that stacked against you but so I'm happy that we could talk about the fact that here, public finance management or public finance issues is was this a very strong part of the CSO community here, you know, like pushing and articulating the fact that because as you say, you're doing the work on the ground, you have a role to play in, first of all, raising people's awareness so that they know that public finance systems are their systems are also raising the government's awareness to the fact that monitoring and evaluation is also your role as well so pretty exciting times ahead of us I think and then I'm really grateful to international idea for providing this platform and so I'm conscious that we almost out of time but because we started a bit just a little bit. So the second, the next set of questions is in and around legislation and policy frameworks that can help you to do your work, help you to do your work around awareness help you to also do your work around monitoring and evaluating and holding governments accountable. So, can you tell us what is the existing legislative framework in Banuatu that makes it possible for anti-corruption initiatives to take place so like for example, do you have whistleblower legislation, what kind of legislation is it and does it protect sources. As you said, you are at the mercy of public servants whether they want to teach you about budget systems whether they want to involve you or not is up to them so is there legislation in place that protects whistleblowers people who come and tell us about corrupt government officials. I think I'll go ahead and then Dr. Willi de Kangen from later. So far, I would have to say there's this if you would you want to be a whistleblower then like the saying goes in vanilla do it at your own risk. I think a lot of people are really. I think we have a public servant, we have a public service, but it is more or less the association that was supposed to be a public service association and that was dismantled after about in I think it was in the 1990s and then there has never been the public service organization has never been grouped up together and then most people who tend to see the wrongs they tend to be scared about talking about it because there's no mechanism to actually protect them. And if you think of doing something right there's always somebody who sees that they are threatened and they will always have a way to ensure that your employment status. That does not continue so a lot of things makes a lot of people very hesitant on coming forward to talk about what practices that are correct. Thank you. Thank you will am it's I think that's a very good and Frank way of putting it. I don't know about his experience but I am a living proof that in the in public service. If you're doing something right it means you're making hard decisions. I think it's very kicked out for some reason. And I can tell you that because I've been kicked out and I respect authority so you know I accept whatever is what decision is made, but that's a very true picture of things. If you think you're a good work and you are. It means you'll probably be stepping on a few toes. It won't be long before there's some allocations and you get kicked out. So status quo is what's happening. In terms of legislation. Now, William has to say in the Ministry of Internal Affairs there's a desk called NGO desk there's a policy. That is supposed to say something about the government working with the CSOs and Banco. It hasn't been successful in the past, but hopefully now with William. William's leadership, we're looking forward to doing that legislation is something that CSOs and NGOs are hesitant to sort of get involved in because we don't want the government to be telling us what to say and why not to say, especially if they're supporting the CSOs and Banco. So that's something that a lot of people have members have spoken against but I think teamwork is good discussions open discussion from discussions are good. So hopefully, you know, I've been doing some, one of the things that William mentioned earlier on in his presentation was the government is now starting to see that CSO representation need to be on board, no committees, which is good, because we need to see transparency fairness and honesty in all the dealings or if that representation can involve making good fair decisions, then that's what we want. That would go along with the words fighting corruption. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're absolutely correct. So you are indeed leaving an example of what happens when you are a public servant and you see wrong, and you highlighted in order to make a right and doesn't always happen that way. You seem to have landed in quite the right place. If I might, if I may add to be able to do really important work in, you know, holding power to account. Thank you so much for sharing that that experience with us and thank you, Mr. Masak for that very brutal but seemingly very accurate way of putting it you blow the whistle at your own risk. I note that, according to the United Nations anti-corruption programs, Vanuatu does have whistleblower legislation, quite like Fiji and like Vanuatu, sorry, like the Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea as well, but maybe it's the way in which we are actually protected under that legislation that requires a bit of attention. So that answers quite a few questions from Vicky, from Teddy, from myself, and from a few other of our participants this morning and at this point I want to say thank you very much to all of our participants. For example, Saul Edward, Teddy Nguyen, our anonymous attendees, Vicky, Vicky Prakash, Ardash Kumar, and especially Teddy Nguyen for being so participatory today. This is probably the most busiest time that's seen our Q&A feature in the three webinars, it's just been blowing up. So Dr. Tokon and Mr. Masak, you have quite a lot of fans this morning. So we're heading towards the end of our time, but I have time for one more question or at least one more comment and that's from Teddy Nguyen. And I'll just read it out. In my own research on government corruption in Papua New Guinea, citizens thought that theoretically they are willing to report corruption, but in reality they can't because of social security and economic costs associated with reporting that corruption. In other words, they do not trust that the whistleblower laws can effectively protect them. And I think that both of you have outlined both in your presentations and in the questions that you answered earlier, what that actually means. I'm going to ask you now to make your parting remarks by responding to Teddy Nguyen's last question there. If you can make some parting remarks directly in response to him and also any other remarks you might like to make as we close off this session. I'll read it again before I ask you Dr. Tokon to speak and then Mr. Masak. In my own research on government corruption in Papua New Guinea, citizens thought that theoretically they're willing to report corruption, but in reality they can't because of the social security and economic costs associated with reporting that corruption. In other words, they don't trust whistleblower laws to protect them. Dr. Tokon. Thank you. That's a very, very true scenario for one or two as well, I might say. If I can just remind us about the result of the global corruption barometer, the most corrupt institutions in the 10 Pacific countries are the president of the Prime Minister's office, the second most corrupt are the parliamentarians. Number three is the police, law enforcement. Number four is civil servants. So, yes, it is true. Imagine you want to go and make a report to the police about a police corrupt activity. It will not work. And yes, it's actually the scenario is actually worse than one or two because in one or two, we all know each other. We, everybody knows each other. So, when you, when you, when you speak out, everybody knows, oh, that person is talking about us or he's talking, he's going to put us in trouble. So, I won't be surprised if it's the same thing in the summons. And here, maybe teaching not so much. People are a little bit different there. But in front of like William mentioned, we all know each other. So, yes, it can be a threat. So, also some people are afraid to report on the relatives with in the marriages now. I'm, I, I'm probably related to William in the south, my enemies in the north, because I have relatives, girls married to the people boys from Miss Thailand so when you are related, really related, your friends school friends, it's, it's, it's very difficult. So yes, some people, they know something is wrong. The witness corrupt activity but it's difficult to report for all those reasons. So, I don't know how we're going to sort this out. We always talk about the rights, other people's rights and your rights and your responsibilities. We have our culture. We have our traditional respect for each other and our leaders. So it's a big issue as well. So, you know, when our leaders meet in Kirpas or in Fiji or in ten around when they talk about, you know, all these things. There's a lot of challenges when you go to implement all these things on the ground because we have all these relationships and cultural practices that are on so we look forward to basically, we need to educate our people much better. They need that you know they need to know what is corruption, what is primary, they need to know the rights. We need to know that corruption does not go with development. Whatever this corruption, there will be no, no development. I think that's that would be my parting idea we educate our community leaders and community citizens on corruption and let them know that when there's corruption they can be no development. Thank you. In point there. Thank you very much. You absolutely ended it on a wonderful note. You're right. Corruption gets in the way of development. And there is a monetary figure attached to that as well. I can't say it right now, but I know that it's in the millions. The amount of money we deny our communities when we allow corruption to continue. Dr. Thank you so much for your time. It has been wonderful listening to you and hearing about your experience. Thank you so much for your parting remarks, please. Fighting. Well, fighting corruption within the, within our millennium culture can be quite well. It is, it is a difficult topic because most of the people you would be accusing your own families. And now, now being in within the NGO sector, I find that a very good way for us to tackle. Issues. Well, when we look at the issues of corruption is that the NGO community has to be very strong. It cannot be divided. If there's an issue that comes up. We just can't go and open our mouths without having the proper facts and properly research. And we have to make sure that our lines are dotted and we ourselves as NGO are solid. Because at any time we got that we might be accusing our own families. But we should, the people should understand that we are talking for the better of our country. Part of the NGO is to be holding the government accountable. And we have to do our research properly. Have the evidence so that the evidence people can go back and check the evidence, and they know we've done it right. And that is how I see an NGO playing part in it. And I would like to see NGOs. Because I see, when you look at the parliament, there's an opposition in the parliament that holds the government to account on what he does. And then you wonder who does that for the public servants. And if nobody's doing then the NGO has to step up on that road. And I see van Gogh taking that spot. We've worked with a lot of people and I'm hoping that once we get the government structure in place then the smaller people who have issues we can actually check the issues that they have. Research it properly so that we can have our story straight. And whenever it needs to go to court then we have the resources to ensure that proper procedures are followed, and people are held accountable, and we have the data to back it up. And that is how I see NGOs fighting, because if nobody takes the leading role then I'm afraid we will be still talking about this next year and after this after thank you. Thank you. My, my, thank you to both of you. Dr talk on in Mr. Nassac, for your very frank, very honest. Thank you for sharing here today. We appreciate very much the time you've taken to prepare presentations to give us information about what the situation is in one want to. And we're hearing the need for a big philosophical change we're hearing that you're looking for support to raise people's consciousness about their rights their responsibilities but also what they stand to lose if they're facing corruption. We're hearing also your assertions that there is a need to strengthen existing structures structures of the government itself facing corruption structures of the CSO community who need to play a very vital role in holding government agencies to account for the power that they have and the resources they have at their disposal. I'm sure I speak for all of our participants today when I say that we've learned quite a lot and so on that note also I want to thank all of our wonderful participants. Everyone who's here today, a special mention to Mr. Teddy when who is also a one talk from Papua New Guinea and is a PhD scholar at James Cook University in Australia thank you very much Teddy I felt like you were a co host on this panel. Thank you so much for all the questions that was coming through from you. Thank you as well to all of the other participants who are sending questions through this is by far the most busiest Talanoa segment of the three webinars that we have conducted and on that note also I would like to. On behalf of international idea Asia and Pacific's original office say thank you to the two gentlemen and to everyone and also would just like to remind everyone listening in and those who may have been with us earlier that the statements views and opinions expressed in the presentation today do not necessarily represent the institutional position of international idea it's Board of Advisors or Council of Member States. I would like to say thank you very much to everyone. That is the end of our webinar series, and definitely of today's please stay in touch and follow international idea on Twitter and on Facebook and on their website for more information about democratic initiatives which encourage conversations that matter in the Pacific. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. token miss and thank you very much. Thank you can drop it. Thanks.