 Good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's briefing on nature-based resilience for Gulf state communities Thank you for joining us here on Capitol Hill and Those of you streaming online I'm Ellen Vaughan and I'm with the Environmental and Energy Study Institute EESI is a bipartisan 501c3 not-for-profit organization we're based here in DC and and We have been bringing fact-based Science-based information to the policymaking process for about 35 years now Through briefings like this fact sheets and other activities. We're funded primarily by Foundation grants and charitable contributions for which we are extremely grateful and I have the honor of introducing our expert panel Who will discuss the extreme weather impacts? Specific to the five states along the US Gulf Coast and those are Florida, Alabama Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas but they're also going to Talk about the innovative sustainable and hopeful Solutions that are making shorelines and communities safer more resilient and better prepared for the next storm So After we hear from the panel and also in addition to our panel we are thinking that we will be Visited by Congressman Charlie Christ so We'll just kind of pause and let him come to the podium when he arrives so I will introduce the panel and then I'll each One by one each panelist and then after the panel will open it up to your questions So if you can kind of keep note of those and keep those We will have those at the end and we usually try to leave You know 30 minutes or so if we can so We'll go ahead and get the panel started One thing I Did want to mention is That we're also very delighted to work with so many wonderful offices here on Capitol Hill. I know Congressional staff are Overwhelmed with so many issues expanding portfolios So we really appreciate your time and hope that we can be a resource to you Um, so I would love to start by introducing Sarah Murdock Sarah serves as the director of US climate resilience and water policy at the Nature Conservancy Her 30-year career has spanned work in the public private and now nonprofit sector on environmental and energy policy Currently she manages the development Implementation of the Conservancy's climate resilience and water related policy positions With a focus on disaster disaster risk policy She holds a BA in environmental science from Colby College and an MA in urban and environmental policy from Tufts University And Sarah will give Some context to this important issue today Sarah welcome Thanks Ellen and thanks EESI for organizing this briefing so I thought I'd start with just trying to give a little context and Definition of what we talk about when we talk about natural infrastructure or nature-based infrastructure, I Like to start off by saying, you know When we talk about infrastructure any type of infrastructure We should be thinking of nature and all of nature's systems as a form of Infrastructure, so when we're talking about making investments in infrastructure We are really trying to educate folks as to the opportunities and the Services that investments in nature and the natural infrastructure provide So that's kind of the the big picture Obviously we're faced with Tremendous threats from increased climate impacts and those threats are In the form of increased flood events increased extreme rain events Increased drought at the other end of the spectrum Increased wildfire all of those increased threats there is a role for Conservation and restoration of Nature as a form to reduce those threats, so I'm just going to walk through a couple Examples of that so we think about it and kind of the coastal context and the riverine Context and also in the urban context So I'll start off in the urban so in the urban context you know a large growing threat are increased rain events causing urban flooding both from stormwater systems as well as just pooling and in riverine kind of overflow from from rivers and tributaries that run through urban areas and Certainly in that context there's a lot of great work going on to Make investments in green infrastructure, so in the urban context we call it more green infrastructure so things like greening Bio swales things along river along street systems that absorb water Also using things like permeable permeable pavement that absorb water instead of cause it to run off green roofs Increased planting of trees all of those things can help abate Both the flooding as well as provide other co-benefits And that's the thing about making investments in nature. We don't see Just Risk reduction from a primary threat like flooding we see a suite of other benefits that come along with investment in nature So we see things like cooling of cities through increased tree canopy. We see increased absorption of carbon from increased trees in urban areas In the riverine context we're really talking about I see the It's the congressman here, so I will pause for a second and Yield the podium for a minute Thanks, Sarah. Yes. Thank you. I Delighted to welcome congressman Charlie Christ and we have been so appreciative of all his efforts on on this issue legislation reintroduced to create a State Revolving Loan Fund to help fund Mitigation so that we can be better prepared Is just one thing and we need these these innovative financing mechanisms So and and I want to thank you also for sponsoring our briefing today and to Sarah Hansen for all her help So I will Welcome you here or wherever you want to be. Thank you Thank You Ellen. It's a pleasure to be here and thank all of you for being here anybody here from Florida Excellent where? Nice, how about you? Pardon Venice Boca Raton not Boca Grand Well, welcome welcome all of you to the nation's capital. It's great to have you here And this is an issue that's near and dear to my heart. I live in st. Petersburg, Florida Which is on the west coast and I represent st. Petersburg and Clearwater and Where I live is called Pinellas County and Pinellas County is literally a peninsula So coastal resiliency is pretty darn important to me Florida is also a peninsula. So these kinds of issues have been rattling around my brain for a long time and Very important to my fellow Floridians, but very important to our planet as you know And so the existence of rising sea levels is something that I have seen with my own eyes in my home state In fact, I'm going to be in Miami. There's a little debate down there later this week and On Miami Beach. There's a place called Alton Road Where literally when it's not raining it floods and I think it was President Obama who recognized this issue and said When it's not raining and it's flooding you got to realize the sea is rising And I think most people appreciate that and it's really not a partisan issue at least it shouldn't be Look, I used to be a Republican. I am now a Democrat and I feel like that if you live near the coast anywhere You're probably pretty aware that this is happening and that this is real And we need to pay attention to it and do everything that we possibly can to address it And so that's why I'm privileged Ellen to be here in the United States Congress to help you and other organizations That are involved do everything that we can to address this issue Because it's coming at us. It's coming at us fast and it's increasing in its intensity And it's all related to climate change and you know again being a Floridian We have these storms called hurricanes and last year hurricane Michael was coming up the Gulf Coast in the Gulf Coast of Mexico in the Gulf of Mexico and by the time it approached the panhandle in Florida It had become a Category 5 storm extremely quickly And so that's another consequence of climate change And why we need to be as concerned as we are about coastal resilience as we are about the kind of storms that this thing creates So I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being focused on this important issue It's probably the most important issue we have because if we don't have a plan up. We don't have a future and That's where this is. So God bless you. Thank you for being here and good luck to us all Thank you so much congressman We appreciate your efforts and and we need all the help we can get on these these issues So Sarah, let me just Invite you back up to the podium So let me just finish up my my broad definition of what we're talking about when we talk about natural infrastructure So I talked about urban And then I was I'm going to talk about Riverine context briefly. So in the riverine context We talked about natural infrastructure as you know, mostly abating flood impacts and And in there we're really talking about reconnecting river systems and and Reconnecting both the floodplains to river systems and really allowing a more natural flow for rivers so that takes various forms in in river systems that we're talking about things like setting back levees and Restoring the floodplains connected to To rivers we're talking about things like enlarging culvert sizes to allow for greater flow through those culverts and Also allow for a better fish fish passage and better ecological connection of the river system better sediment flow And we're talking about things like removing dams in some cases where the dams are no sir no longer serving any sort of function and our relics and By taking out those dams. We really are Increasing the ecological health of the river and a lot of times reconnecting floodplains to to those river systems And then finally in the in the coastal realm There are and we're going to hear probably more examples of this from our speakers There are so many things we can do to kind of increase the ecological health of our coastal systems That act as such an important buffer to increased threats that we're seeing from storms from storm surge from sea level rise so everything from Protecting barrier beach areas restoring those areas increasing dune systems Nature Conservancy is doing a lot of things like Restoring and building oyster reefs as a form for breaking wave energy and reducing storm threat in the in the Caribbean and in the southern part of Florida, we're doing coral restoration coral restoration coral reefs are shown to Diminish wave energy by 95% when they're healthy so and we've done a lot of science work around that So there's more work to be done in terms of Measuring and monitoring the effectiveness of different ecological systems and their Risk reduction value. We know a lot now, but we definitely have more work to be done on that in that area And we also have more work and evidence to collect on the cost effectiveness. We know again Some of the cost effectiveness and we've measured some of that We did a study along the eastern seaboard post sandy that valued the wetlands in place During that storm they abated 625 million dollars in avoided damages to the structures and homes along that Stretch where the kind of Virginia to Maine where that storms hit So so there's some good valuation, but there definitely needs to be more work done in that area as well and As I mentioned before where the urban systems when you're making these investments in natural systems You're not just debating one threat, but you're really bringing along a whole host of Co-benefits we call them. So water quality benefits Habitat fishery habitat benefit wildlife habitat benefit Recreational benefits just community general aesthetic benefits So all of these things are our co-benefits And natural infrastructure can also be thought of in conjunction with more traditional gray Infrastructure as a way to green those systems as well and sometimes make them more sustainable and more resilient in the long run So that's a general frame I wanted to start off our discussion and I think you're going to hear some great Place-based examples and I'm if there's time I'm happy to chime in with a Gulf example as well later So thank you Thanks so much Sarah for that good context and So yes, we are going to be looking at some place-based Examples and on the Gulf Coast. It's always helpful to sort of put these more abstract Issues in in something specific, but we also wanted to talk about how the federal government is supporting these efforts in partnerships and In with resources and so we were delighted to have Samantha Brooke From the US Fish and Wildlife Service Samantha is The National Coastal and marine marine team lead In the National Wildlife Refuge System She hails from mid-coast Maine And has spent her career working at the state and federal level on coastal and marine conservation on fisheries Bycatch marine mammal recovery Habitat restoration and marine protected areas so Samantha welcome Thank you for that welcome and thank you to all of our audience members for joining me here today And for listening to a little bit about the services coastal program I'm sure I don't have to tell all of you, but our coastal and Great Lake communities are incredibly important Coastal areas are home to 30% of the US population and are valuable economic drivers One way or another we're all connected to the coast I'm sure most of you have some personal connection as well You heard that I grew up in coastal Maine so very near and dear to my heart Our coastal areas are also critical to the resources that the US Fish and Wildlife Service cares about I know most people are a little bit surprised when they hear US Fish and Wildlife Service is working in the coastal Environment, but in fact we have many different types of reasons to be there 40% of the National Wildlife Refuges are located in coastal areas We have 85% of migratory birds and waterfowl using that area in addition There are migratory bird flyways that contact at least one flyway contacting every coast and 45% of the threatened and endangered species that we manage are in coastal habitats The coastal program is a nationwide voluntary habitat restoration and protection program administered within the US Fish and Wildlife Service We work around the country in coastal watersheds on public and private lands providing technical and financial assistance to protect intact habitats and to restore degraded habitats increasing long-term coastal resilience The program has been around since the mid-1980s and we've worked with over 6,000 partners from that time We've restored over 1.5 million acres and we've leveraged $1.6 billion for conservation. That's $8 for every $1 that we put into a project Many of our projects restore natural systems to provide those critical services such as wetlands for flood mitigation or mangroves to reduce the impact of waves, storm surge, and coastal erosion These are the projects that we had the excellent introduction from Sarah talking about and they do differ from that traditional or gray infrastructure also called hard infrastructure that uses concrete or steel There is a lot of terms for them as Sarah mentioned green infrastructure engineering with nature and nature-based solutions But regardless of what you call it, these types of projects are cost-effective Flexible and they have direct on-the-ground benefits for our businesses and our communities and again here you can see Sarah highlighted this study from the Hurricane Sandy which demonstrated wetlands provided $625 million in direct property damage protection so I'm going to dive down to the Gulf of Gulf of Mexico to coastal Texas and I'm going to talk a little bit about one of those types of projects specifically that the coastal program is involved with and I want to be clear that this is not a project that I've worked on directly I'm very familiar with it, but there's a large group of partners here that are invested in this place which include private landowners state federal and county staff Non-profit organizations and private landowners, so I'm going to just do my best to represent the amazing work that's going on there The salt bayou is the largest contiguous tidal marsh in coastal in Texas It's 90,000 acres and the image you see here the orange line represents the salt River and then the blue is the watershed area that we're talking about the restoration projects occurring in This ecosystem has been significantly impacted by humans you can see ship channels oil and gas facilities and road construction and These projects have been going on for some time Historically resource managers were pulled into discussion with action agencies and through those consultations They began to realize that they lacked a shared vision for the future of the region Which meant that they weren't providing a coordinated set of options for restoration This led to internal discussion about the overall goal goals for the salt bayou system For example, there is excellent hunting and fishing in this area as well as valuable commercial fisheries and A lot of tourism and bird watching and these different resource user groups were engaged in the conversation But when you're restoring a place for bird habitat your goals might be different than when you're restoring it for fish habitat and so This was meaning that the folks weren't providing that nice Consolidated set of opinions even though they all agreed that saving the wetland was the most important thing So began a discussion about how they could work together and during that time Hurricane Francis hit in about 1998 Which resulted in significant fish kills and flooding Not really spurred a recognition among the partners that there was a connection between these various projects and the need To take a higher level approach So they really started to talk to one another about what was needed to make the system more resilient began working on a higher level plan There were still some folks who are a little bit Not sure yet. They weren't fully on board And then came Hurricane Ike in 2008 and this hurricane was devastating for the region that we're talking about In fact, you can see in the lower right hand picture This is the levee at Port Arthur and you can see here. It's not quite overtop It did get even higher than that and in fact the floodgates weren't come weren't able to even fully close And this was a game changer for the local community I've just put some stats up here about the value of this area It's an incredibly important for the military for oil and gas in the nation. It's a very important coastal waterway So clearly there was a lot of reasons that we all needed to be working together to protect these valuable infrastructure And that really provided the motivation that was necessary to finalize the restoration plan for the the region In 2013 the salt bayou watershed restoration plan was completed that took 15 years Nobody ever said that working on such a big thing would be easy But the group came together and the plan has four primary elephants elements Some elephants in the room The beneficial use of dredge material to restore Elevation to the eroding marsh in the state wetland management area Increasing freshwater inputs by installing siphons across the Gulf intercoastal waterway, which would mimic those natural freshwater inflows There was also a restoration of a historic Beach ridge along the the shore there to protect the marsh behind it and finally improving the balance of salt water at the Keith Lake fish pass And I can report that there's a great deal of progress that has been made since that plan was finalized Many many partners came to the table to move the projects forward and although work is ongoing We're getting some really positive results where these projects have been completed or partially completed in The top right hand corner. We have the beneficial use project now working with industry on some state Managed wetland areas they completed one phase and in fact industry has come to the table again to put forward more Beneficial use projects and that picture there shows the area directly after the project was completed It's all green now the salt marshes come right back in the vegetation Then in the top left-hand corner. We have the hydrological restoration The modeling was done to take a look at what installing siphons in different areas would mean for the system And that's project is scheduled for construction to start in June in the bottom right-hand corner We've got the beach dune ridge restoration The project was completed in a pilot phase for three miles and it was so successful That they were able to get the rest of the engineering and construction done and they finalized it for the remaining 17 miles that's expected to begin construction this fall or winter and finally the Keith Lake fish pass That was completed in 2015 and in fact data is demonstrating that it's working to better balance that influx of salt water into the system So as I begin to wrap up I really want to emphasize that none of these large-scale projects can be completed alone and The Fish and Wildlife Service in the coastal program is just one of many many partners at the table and I've listed a few partners here And I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the efforts of two partners in particular Jim Sutherland with Texas Parks and Wildlife and Patrick Walter with the service and both of them actually passed away recently But we're incredibly important just key to moving these things forward And you can see that they came from very very different perspectives, and yet everybody at the table working together If you'd like to learn more about this particular project I'll draw your attention to a story on the Fish and Wildlife Service is nature's good neighbor web page This is about a judge Jefferson County judge Brannick And he was very valuable in helping ensure that the county permits and different Regulations and everything could help move these projects forward. So I really encourage you to check out this great story I had a lot of fun visiting this area of the country and hearing from all the different partners And lastly just a plug for our Fish and Wildlife Service coastal program web page and our Facebook page So please feel free to check those out And I'll be happy to share with you more about these various projects and projects in your areas if you're not from Texas. Thank you Thank you, Samantha. As I said helpful, I think it's so great to hear these examples and That's just great news. So thank you so much Next I am very happy to Introduce I think the person who traveled the furthest today Rhonda Price from Mississippi Rhonda is Deputy Director of Coastal Restoration and Community Resilience for the Mississippi Department of Marine Services And Rhonda's always also the Coastal Resilience team lead for the Gulf of Mexico Alliance In this role she has helped to coordinate enhance the efforts of state local federal business and non-profit partners To assist coastal communities and ecosystems in the Gulf of Mexico Region to become more resilient in structure and function So the goals of the resilience team include increasing the Gulf region's understanding and Localized risks associated with sea level rise storm surge subsidence storm vulnerability and other threats Also developing regional management tools to enhance resiliency through improved data models and Methodologies and implementing workshops to increase awareness and responsibility of Individuals involved in emergency response at all levels. So Rhonda, thank you so much for being here. I know it it was not an easy thing to To find your way here, but we appreciate your persistence Thank you, Ellen. Yes, it was a little bit of An adventure getting here, but but I'm here and thank you for that lovely introduction and for Approaching the Gulf of Mexico Alliance resilience team to come talk about Resilience it's something that is near and dear to my heart And I guess that's why I lead the resilience team is because it took a lot of resilience to get here today Let's see So I'm going to start off with maybe some of you may or may not be familiar with the Gulf Mexico Alliance It is a regional partnership that was started in 2004 by the governor of Florida Jeb Bush And he was looking for I guess partners from other governors and other states along the coast that were Working on some of the same maybe issues of concern that they wanted to address Dealing with ecological and economic health at the time They really didn't have anything to focus on until 2005 when Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf and there really gave the The essence of an alliance the thought was there that A regional partnership was needed And it really I guess timing is everything so the alliance was there and when the need was You know was was you know needed That was when the structure of the alliance took shape so it is state led and there are state Representatives that appointed by the governor that make up for the alliance management team there is a headquarters with an executive director and Laura Bowie is a force to be reckoned with if you do not know her Laura has really done an excellent job in keeping our teams Focused and and going in the right direction There are six priority teams right now. We have a thousand active members We have a business advisory council with seven large industries in the Gulf and right now we have 150 federal people that make up our federal advisory group and We have a little over 3,000 people on our our goma email list So some of the roles that the alliance plays Of course it is a partnership. So we believe in providing collaboration for those regional priority issues Developing tools and pilot projects for regional use and then strategic partnerships that allow partner networking How do we do it? Well after? 2005 There was an action plan that was created in 2006. We are now in our action plan number three So each of the teams will have various focus areas that they want to identify And then actions that will take place underneath those focus areas, which are our goals As i mentioned, there are six priorities and we are the coastal resilience team We do however pull from the other teams if We need any other information like restoration or habitat An education is also a great team as well. We have our guff star partnership And that is a funding source that allows projects to be funded through goma and It is used for fulfillment of our action plan that allows the teams to get on the ground And really solve some of the actions and priorities that they have within the plan as you can see It's made up of state federal and and lots of private funding as well So by the numbers so far we've had 2.3 million in project funding and 100 percent goes to those projects 45 projects And 131 institutions are participating So I am here to talk about resilience and part of the resilience team is What are we about? So we try to look at regional response and allow or an assisting communities And states to become more Resilient and respond better to natural and man-made hazards And the way that we do that is through our assessments Communication and planning and adaptation So those are our three focus areas that allow us to focus on our goals and connecting those gulf states We work to increase awareness and knowledge of our tools and resources Promote understanding of those resources and then the adaptation mitigation and restoration strategies that help preserve Our heritage along with our natural resources Some of the accomplishments that the team has Completed and is still ongoing over the last couple years. It's been our resilience index And that was a project by the Mississippi Alabama and Louisiana Sea Grant the self-assessment that allows local decision makers to go through Six sections of looking at their critical infrastructure transportation business plans And evaluating risk whether they are weak or or That hadn't even thought about it So it allows the opportunity to sit down and have that conversation with those local municipalities And even highlight in certain sections where the community rating system Points could be identified and used later on Um as a result of the success of that we have created three more indices for tourism fisheries and the port One of the small grant programs that have come out of the gulf star was working with aransas pass They did the resilience index and realized that they Had a weakness and wanted to develop a long-term plan to address coastal resilience They conducted a community wide outreach campaign And Right now they are they are working on implementing that that plan Um, we also work in a lot of green infrastructure approaches as well, not just large landscape, but also in the communities Uh, some of that is working with our homeowners So being part of the department of marine resources We have a permitting office and when homeowners are coming in looking at alternatives to hard structures like bulkheads We really didn't have an answer for them and a lot of other states didn't either Come to find out so um with a partnership with seagrant and Mississippi state university extension They created a permitting guide And through the permitting guide allows homeowners to kind of do a checklist is this Um living shoreline going to work for for me And if so, what are the cost benefits and the permitting requirements that I have to go through in order to um To install a living shoreline So there are several workshops and trainings that we have with with homeowners and another Through funding source that we received through the resilience community of practice created a green infrastructure working group So they decided to go one step further and create five resource catalogs catalogs for each state And those look at designing constructions some case studies some pictures of before and after And then just some fun facts about each of the state and the economic value Uh that living shorelines could provide So if you're looking for any more information, um, there's gulf living shorelines dot com It is um A wonderful resource guide not only for the homeowner. It also targets realtors Contractors and developers and land use planners. So it It includes everyone that is going to be vital in making decisions On constructing living shorelines and as you can see once again, there is a lot of partners in collaboration that goes into Creating those resource guides So another Funding source that I just happened to be fortunate enough to work on was epa Connecting the dots and that provided technical assistance to cities who in turn took the resilience index and and identified some weaknesses so part of uh This grant for connecting the dots was looking at uh community specific vulnerabilities And how to measure and mitigate those hazards and then creating that community dialogue That's really important is Communicating that information back to the community So the one that i'm going to focus on now is or talk about is the living shoreline project in Biloxi, mississippi So a lot of cities are looking at alternative ways and Wanting to um kind of um Shardin harden shorelines naturally and combat a lot of coastal erosion. So they are looking to a more natural alternative alternative and that is the living shorelines So we had three demonstration projects that were going up Um, which in turn allowed the homeowners the Opportunity to go in and see some of these demonstration projects. So It really wasn't planned. It just kind of happened that way that um We were working with the permitters in creating training and workshops on how to get your permit But then there was where can these homeowners see? Live living shorelines and then learn about the application So through connecting the dots um, steven deal who is with the mississippi alabama sea grant worked with the city of biloxi In creating some of these kiosks that are going around to the three sites And and not only lets you look at the living shoreline and the function It gives you a little information about it as well. What is the living shoreline? What is the cost benefit? And and what are you looking at and you can see at the bottom? There's once again lots of partners We had our secretary of state The nature conservancy was involved and this was the installation of the living shoreline at the olbrich house And it was used there to provide Reduced wave energy to lessen the effects of erosion on shore Another project that was a community grant was through the To the city of ocean springs and they wanted to install rain gardens So it brought community involvement together that everyone got out learned about rain gardens and the effects of it Another one was the harbor infrastructure adaptation plan So they had a coastal erosion problem around their harbor and so they turned to a living shoreline application to reduce that Coastal erosion Another project that I fell in love with Nicholas Satterfield with the New Orleans redevelopment authority spoke at our resilience team meeting in austin In december the resilience team has a meeting once a year outside of our yearly All hands meeting and he talked about the community adaptation program, which was a Grant that was received to provide residents with residential storm water management to improve their their their homes Um, and it was in the gentilly resilience district and I love the idea of a resilience district So we have historical districts. We have business districts and now we have a resilience district And I think that's that's fabulous even in Alabama There is a whole fortified community. So I could see that being a a resilience district as well But through the community adaptation program they put together Just identifying different things that homeowners could do they could install rain gardens detention basins Plant trees and storm water planter box and then it gives you the level of labor Your rain capacity and how much it's going to cost so I think Uh, I'm going to go back one because I want to make a point and So we we're looking at the homeowner And I think providing those community grants to homeowners to allow them the control And once you've given them the tools to allow them to Kind of make their property more sustainable and in doing so the municipality becomes more sustainable And once the municipality is more sustainable then the state becomes more resilient So it's kind of a pyramid effect and having these community grants and the ability To reach and provide those funding opportunities to homeowners and to those local municipalities Really make a huge difference in and creating More resilient states Um And so another uh approach to shoreline that that we look at is the more natural larger landscape Um living shorelines where that be dunes beaches salt marshes oysters or coral reefs that that Break those the waves and the wave energies One of the projects that were in mississippi so through the guff regional sediment master plan That was created through the gomas habitat team Mississippi created the master plan for beneficial use of dredge material for coastal mississippi and that plan was used um to provide The restoration of round island, which is now Back to it almost a historical footprint of the 200 acre island and not only provides a wonderful habitat It also provides some sort of storm surge protection just off the coast of of what is pascagula Another shoreline approach that we've been working on is the hencock county marsh living shoreline And that is a hybrid approach where we're putting oyster reef balls and Out in the front of the marsh to combat coastal erosion. So that is our hybrid attempt is about six almost six miles and uh 46 acres of marsh so part of of all of this is our Campaign awareness for 2020 and that is embracing the gulf. So we are wanting to Hold a gala in june to coincide with our all hands and we are expecting Some of our keynotes to be those founding fathers of the gulf mexico alliance and that's haley barber Jeb Bush and rick parry. So if you're in belluxy or want to have an excuse to come to belluxy And the bower vaj. Please join us for the gala Becky again is the project coordinator of that and she is a rock star um And last but not least we are working on authorization for our regional ocean ocean and coastal coordination act Which would designate r of p's And no as coordinators for federal and state authorities We're looking to introduce that into the senate this month and we are looking for sponsors in the house right now We have all five gulf governors offices that have signed on And we feel that the purpose of regional ocean partnerships if you kind of haven't figured that out already Partnerships get a lot of work done And it enables us to receive that funding directly and get it down to the communities quickly And so with that I will drop up Great stuff. Thank you so much ronda and I am delighted to introduce our final speaker on the panel derrick brock bank Is executive director of the american shore and beach preservation association Derrick is responsible for the growth strategic planning government affairs goals of This organization, which is the nation's leading organization advocating for beach and coastal restoration Derrick has a background in climate and coastal conservation and experience as a grassroots organizer um, and he is getting asb pa to lead coastal communities and decision makers In the tough but necessary conversations about how they'll address sea level rise increasing storm intensity and other climate impacts, so we're really happy to have derrick With us today. Thank you Thank you. Yeah, I'm pleased to be batting cleanup I guess on this esteemed panel So thank you to my previous panelists in the esi for inviting me My presentation today is going to really be sort of two Parts together the first part is going to be talking about A more systemic issue and systemic solutions to nature based resilience particularly for shoreline and coastline management So it's going to be looking at regional sediment management and beneficial use of dredge material And then i'm going to pivot to what congress can do about many of the things that we've heard here So some of that will be about rsm and beneficial use but some of that will also just be general things that congress can be working on So hopefully you can take that back to your offices some of your bosses and share that share those words So first off asb pa. We are an organization of coastal and beach practitioners So we are the communities the industry And the academics that build maintain and manage our nation's beaches So we include you know towns like orange beach, alabama and galveston, texas So both big towns small towns as well as industry ranging from the big dredging companies to small little private environmental consultants And we believe in the we advocate for the restoration of beaches and coastlines for four interconnected values I think you've probably heard them amongst the panel, but we define them as the protection benefit they provide The ecological benefit they can provide the recreation and obviously when you think about beaches you think about recreation but there there are these other benefits and then The economic value they provide to coastal communities very interconnected but all very important to why we need to maintain healthy coastal systems Okay, let's dig in uh sediment What are we talking about? We're talking about dirt. We're talking about sand We're talking about silts and clays dirt and mud and it really is the building block of a natural coastal system So this is a shoreline in uh galveston texas that as you can see is in badly in need of erosion It's it's those those properties are threatened by the next storm that comes along the gulf of mexico So you could have put up a seawall, um, but we believe it's a better solution to actually rebuild that beach and dune system That both provides a layer of protection that Just as good as a seawall could provide but it also provides habitat This is a sea turtle habitat area so you can have nesting sea turtles on that obviously if you're a home beach owner beach homeowner or Hotel there you'd rather have a beach in front of your house than a seawall So there's a lot of benefits that it can provide but really that takes sediment And we are facing a sediment crisis a sediment shortage crisis on our shorelines sediment is just not readily available This is a picture of from the air from louisiana. It's not just beaches that are eroding It's our wetlands too. Obviously if you've been to louisiana You know it's facing the greatest land loss in the country one of the highest levels of land loss in the in the in the world This used to be Contiguous marsh and now it's open water because that sediment well There's many reasons we can get into but um, but a big part of that is It's eroding and the rebuilding part of that is not happening because there's just not enough sediment getting to coast to louisiana So where is all the sediment gone? Why is this a crisis? Well a couple things um over the past 100 years We've channelized our rivers and bayous and and tributaries So, um, we've both hardened the shoreline. So the eroding banks of a river Which is the sediment that would eventually end up on our coast The river banks are no longer eroding. We've got them concrete and cemented in so you're not getting that sediment into the system We've also channelized it bayous don't naturally run that straight They meander they they weave that creates a much slower system Which allows sediment to accumulate in them if you've channelized them if you have them straight They move fast and they carry a lot of sediment out deep into offshore Um, someone mentioned, uh, I think sarah mentioned dam removal We often think about dam removal for fish, but there's a Literally literally tons and tons of sediment Trapped behind dams and that sediment is never going to get to the coast So if you're coast to louisiana and you want to see sediment rebuilding your marshes That sediment is trapped up in in arkansas and and and you know minnesota and all the way up into the dakotas even So you've got sediment behind behind dams and then of course we've uh, we've to support navigation We've put jetties out to make sure that we can flush out that sediment from the coastal system to go offshore to maintain navigation purposes But that also means the sediment that would naturally be accumulating in shoals in Waterways is not moving on to the beach in a high flood tide. It's actually being pushed offshore One more issue here not for the gulf coast, but in a cliff area Cliff faced beaches such as out in california some areas in the Great lakes, uh, we've hardened cliffs you build a home at the top of the cliff You don't want your home to fall off the cliff you harden that cliff that eroding cliff is actually what builds the beaches in california So they're they're seeing tremendous beach beach loss in california because that natural sediment is no longer. It's no longer there um, so And then even once the sediment is available, um, we're not using it beneficially We're not putting it to good to good use so obviously louisiana You see we've pushed out the birds foot delta is really pretty much to the edge of the outer continental shelf So all that sediment that's being pushed out of the mississippi is being wasted off the continental shelf even in high flood tides when they open the Bonnie carry spillway the sediment goes into lake ponder train, which is a fairly deep lake It's not actually building in the sediment area. So we're not using sediment properly. So what's the solution? Well, we need to beneficially we need to manage our sediment regionally and we need to beneficially use our dredge material Dr. Houston who is the former director of army corps erdick the engineering and research development center in vicksburg has said Shoreline recession is not natural but caused by human activity to benefit the navigation industry Obviously, there's some caveats to that some of it is natural, but it has certainly been exacerbated by navigation I would also add to that. I think our system of flood protection You know building up levy structures hardening our shorelines has also exacerbated this too But the point being, you know, we've managed our river systems. We've managed our inlets We've hardened our inlets. We're trying to get sediment out of that river and inlet system. And that means it's not going to the coast So, um, this would be a problem. So this is causing that sediment crisis on the coast This would be a problem no matter what was happening, but it's in the midst of exacerbating factors Louisiana Or heck even right nearby and hamptons rose virginia beach area We're seeing great levels of subsidence where the land is actually sinking So if you've gotten a roting coastline and you've got sinking land It's bad news if you're trying not to get wet Hardening shorelines, uh, you put up a bulkhead and totally get it your property owner You buy a beach to your waterfront home and all of a sudden you see your The edge of your uh, the edge of your property going into the shore You want to put up a bulkhead protect it? Well, that's great But that actually exacerbates the land loss in front of it even in a uh, a low energy system like uh, like here in In alabama, I think this is gulf port bay. I'm not sure but anyway It's going to exacerbate that that loss of sand in front of it And then of course the big one which you heard about we heard about from congressman christ sea level rise So all the things i'm going to talk about today in terms of beneficial reuse and in fact most of the policy things that I'm going to talk about all things that should be happening Irregardless of climate change, but climate change subsidence hardening shorelines All of these things make it that much more important. These are efforts that need to be done But you sort of you know, you're putting all these Climate change is sort of the steroids of the coastal crisis Okay, so it's already happening i'm going to run through this pretty quick. There's a lot happening. We've heard about it already We talked, uh, samantha talked about the beneficial use project at saltwater bayou. That's how they're restoring that area Rhonda mentioned I think a couple different beneficial use projects that they're working on through goma and certainly goma has been the the driving force of regional sediment management in the region But a couple things that I just wanted to sort of flag louisiana has a state coastal master plan It's a comprehensive 50 billion dollar 50 year plan part of that plan is a sediment management plan How do we actually use the sediment that is in louisiana? Whether that's You know just offshore whether that's in the wetlands or whether that's coming out of the Mississippi river How can we actually put it to good use? They're also proposing sediment diversions Which would be a sort of natural way of taking or mimic a natural way of taking Sediment out of the river and putting it into the wetlands So you don't actually have to have mechanical dredges moving this sediment you just take Open up essentially a floodgate controlled floodgate During times of high sediment high water flow and that'll pump sediment right out into the wetlands where it's where it's needed As opposed to you know lake pond train or off the outer continental shelf Marsh creation projects. This is very specifically what's happening in saltwater bayou. What's happening in in Um Well, I guess in the misset project the one you mentioned there It's actually building a barrier island, but you can just pump sediment in louisiana They are pumping sediment Over 20 miles from the mississippi river into marsh creation areas where it's needed So you can the technology is there to move sediment a long long way at affordable prices if the situation is dire enough So the other area which I don't think has happened that much in the gulf But it's starting to happen This is actually I think a nature conservancy project in new jersey is what they call thin layer placement So rather than pumping in sediment to build up a brand new marsh or turn open water into marsh You're taking a potentially relatively healthy marsh and spreading out about a couple inches Of sediment that's being dredged that needs to be dredged anyway But rather than just sort of dumping it off the side of the dredge You you spray it out over the project and that helps accrete that helps build the project up So if you do this, you know every couple years and and put in two to three to five to eight inches of sediment You can actually keep help marshes keep up with sea level rise doing it that way And then finally the one that you know We obviously think most about as a beach organization is taking dredging from an inlet from a navigation channel and placing it on a beach This is uh babes beach It's a it's a beach in gallistan, texas that won asbpa's best restored beach award a couple years ago And actually just this week or maybe it was last week Galveston project galveston district of the core announced They were going to be doing a new dredging cycle for the galveston ship channel And babes beach was going to be the recipient of that dredge of that dredging material So it's going to continue to re-nourish That restored beach so rather than just having the galveston seawall you actually have a beach in front of galveston seawall So again, it's an economic generator. There's starting to be some wildlife habitat based on it and then And then of course, you know a beach is a much more Much nicer recreation opportunity than a seawall. So you got some good things happening already We can go into this more in questions I outlined a couple things that the state each of the five Gulf states are doing On terms of regional sediment management beneficial use again a big shout out to the Gulf of Mexico Alliance their Conservation habitat team has really pulled together the Gulf of Mexico regional sediment management plan and that I In my opinion has really driven a lot of the work that's going on in some of these other states Um Another big piece of regional sediment management is the core the core is the manager of our nation's water Our coastal systems and water ways and is the one responsible for moving a lot of this dredge material And here's where I think the Gulf is is actually pretty lucky in my opinion I think three of the best core districts on regional sediment management are in the Gulf Jacksonville mobile and galveston are all doing really good work They're sort of thinking beyond the the silos that is often set up from the core If you're either a navigation or you're a coastal or you're a flood risk production They're really looking at how they can blend budget lines how they can think about project timing so that you know If if this beach needs some sediment Maybe we can time the the dredging of the immediate adjacent channel to correspond with when we can actually place the sand on that beach So you're you need to sort of think a little bit outside the box and they're doing some good Good work there. I mentioned erdict. There's actually a regional sediment management program Based out of erdict. Erdict is in vicksburg, mississippi It does service the nation But I think just the proximity to vicksburg has helped some of these core districts be leading thinkers on rsm There's also a number of studies going on Right now in regional sediment management or that have regional sediment management as a major component to it in the Gulf That's the south atlantic coast study, which is actually references the south atlantic division of the core So as well as the south atlantic coast It's also looking at the gulf coast of florida as well as alabama and mississippi And then there's the texas coastal area study, which is looking at how to manage sediment at a regional level in texas And then I already mentioned the louisiana coastal master plan, which is run by the state not the core But you really have a good comprehensive coastal studies going on throughout the coast Engineering with nature. I'm not going to talk a lot about this but The core put out a an atlas of Projects across the nation actually across the world. There's some us as well as internationally to talk about how you can How you can do essentially nature-based resilience looking at both natural solutions as well as as well as Resilient solutions And then the section 1122 beneficial use of dredge material pilot program Program authorized in the last word. Okay. I've spent way too much time talking on this now I need to talk about what you can do So this is going to be far quicker than it probably should be But here are a couple things I'm going to list off four different Areas that can be supported and if for each one I'm going to throw out two specific ways in which you can be helpful So four times two that's eight different ideas. There are probably dozens of things that you can be doing But these are just a couple First off army quarry. They said they managed they managed the coast Two things that I think they could be doing better and congress can help in terms of oversight One change the federal stand change the understanding of the federal standard So the federal standard says a core must dispose of dredge material as cheaply as possible So long as it's environmentally it's not violating any environmental It's not causing any environmental problems Which means it's often cheapest to dump dredge material Offshore rather than beneficially use it and that might be true in the short term But I believe if you sort of think more big picture about what those costs are The overall lifetime cost is going to be greater if you're dumping sediment offshore And then later on that beach or that coastal system then has to figure out a new place to get dredge material So I think I don't necessarily think you need to get rid of the federal standard But I think we need to change the federal standard or change the understanding To incorporate the full lifetime cost of both the the dredge project as well as the immediately adjacent Um potential restoration projects. Secondly, uh, I think we need to reform the benefit cost ratio process that the core uses right now the core is Authorizes project based on a sort of essentially a single Variable so if you are a flood risk management project all the benefits calculated are flood risk management Benefits if you're a if you're a navigation project, it's based on navigation benefits Which means projects that have multiple benefits projects that you know, maybe flood risk management But also have pretty significant ancillary wildlife or habitat or ecological values Those benefits aren't being calculated. And so you've got a you know You've got a levy that's going up in competition with a wetland and maybe the levy provides better flood protection marginally But the wetland is going to have tremendous other values in terms of ecological value recreation values So we need to think about the benefits more broadly. There was effort in last order to address this It ended up getting pushed to a national academy study. I think we actually need to see the core reform this process Okay legislation obviously there's you know, there's water resources development act legislation that's has a lot of stuff going in it But two specific ones that I wanted to call out that are really good and are Introduced in the house right now the living shorelines act this would fund This would authorize a fund to be administered by NOAA that would support living shorelines project So it's essentially a grant program to fund living shorelines congressman poloan introduced it gosh about a month ago I think but HR 3 115 reach out to poloans office if you're interested Second is the coastal communities adaptation act. This was introduced by representative harley rouda Who's out of california? But it was actually a little bit of the brainchild of senator nelson before he left office and this would create Essentially a revolve a sort of new revolving fund for Communities to do coastal adaptation natural sort of naturally based coastal adaptation projects So it'd be very little cost to the federal government but will allow communities to have access to low interest or no interest loans Two very good thing very good bills, you know if you're interested reach out to the members to co-sponsor or learn more for You know just look them up on thomas Finally or not finally probably most importantly the sustained federal investment Obviously all these things that we've all of us have been talking about take money Local communities can support some of it But the federal government needs to kick in and this means passing appropriations bills on time The three ones that I think are probably most relevant here are energy and water Commerce justice and science and interior environment that covers army corps covers noa covers the suite of interior agencies including samantha's agency Fund them on time if they're not funded on time They spend a whole lot of money trying to figure out how to spend less money than what they have So it's just a real ways to see these appropriations bills get delayed And then we also need to fund coastal programs I could Take up 10 slides to fund all that to show you all the good programs that are that should be funded But they're critical the second related piece of this is we need to fund resilience before a storm So much of the funding that we are getting right now from resilience comes post storm We've had the hurricane disaster supplementals Great to see the congress step up and and fund resilience, but that should be done before the storm not after the storm However, I will say until there is that political impetus to start funding these before the storm The post storm disaster recovery money is absolutely essential. Um, that's how the corps is doing much of their work That's how fishing what we were just talking before the uh, the panel about how fishing wildlife service has What was it 50 million dollars or 40 million dollars to do resilience work on its land? That's money that wouldn't have come from wouldn't have been available except for post disaster recovery and then finally The big thing is how do these all work together natural natural based resilience doesn't happen in a vacuum We need to be supportive of all the other adjoining pieces of Society really and I think that starts with infrastructure congresses continue to talk about the administration has continued to talk about a major infrastructure package um Our nature our our nation's coastlines are as much critical infrastructure as anything else whether it's broadband airports shipping ports Roads our nations beaches dunes and wetlands are critical natural infrastructure that are providing the protection And the resilience to the rest of the nation's infrastructure It's sort of the the homeowners policy You're not going to go out and spend get a new home if you don't if you don't get that protection So you need to invest in in natural infrastructure And I think it's also really important that natural or nature-based infrastructure is called out specifically in any infrastructure like legislation We're not talking about just seawalls and levy systems. We're talking about beaches dunes and wetlands and things like that And then sort of finally after that you need to we also need to think about how we're supporting the communities because if we're not Supporting the communities there's not going to be the public need for this these healthy coastlines So whether that's supporting the industries like shipping supporting ports You know full use of harbor maintenance trust funds supporting the fishing industry We need to be make sure that we're supporting congress is supporting the the communities that rely on these coastal systems Because it really is you know, it's all integrated if you let the shipping industry fall apart The economy of certain towns could collapse and then and then you don't have that that drive for coastal restoration So with that I will wrap up. I went really quickly there, but I think we're happy to take happy take questions Derek thank you so much. That was Wonderful to hear some of those legislative solutions that That we might be able to take um, and I might even add cbo scoring might be an issue to look at in terms of Being able to account for these long-term benefits so Yeah, uh investing in mitigation is is really essential. Um, so You'd like to open it up to your questions We have 15 minutes anyone A shy group Oh, yes You were talking about how a lot of this sediment is getting pushed farther out seas because of these channels I was wondering is there a way to get that sediment back by dredging or is it pushed too far? And if we if we can't is it uh dangerous to keep taking sediment from inland will that soon be pushed away as well This on yes, great. Um great question. Uh, so yes the the sediment that it gets dumped offshore It it depends as the short answer So, um, if it's getting pushed out past the outer continental shelf So the birds foot delta of the of the mississippi river You know as you can sort of see on that map extends way far out past the rest of louisiana And it's really close to that outer continental shelf where there's a big drop off So all of a sudden you're looking at you know, 600 foot deep water to 6 000 foot deep water And once it goes off that outer continental shelf, it's essentially economically. I mean you can't get to it. It's it's just too deep When it gets pushed offshore to the 600 foot water. Yeah, absolutely And that's where some of the sort of mixed signals are getting so if you if you're dredging and dumping it offshore You know two years later They're literally going back and taking it from where you dumped it and putting it back on shore So you've got you know, you've got an increased price But because you've missed time did it's it's not happening And then your question to whether taking Allowing sediment from inshore are you referring to sort of having it come down from rivers like getting rid of removing dams kind of thing I mean There is always danger. You know sedimentation creates turbidity which is you know Sediment in the water and that can have impacts on certain sensitive ecosystems. So coral reefs You don't want a big, you know sediment rich Flow going into a coral reef system because that could kill the coral but in most I think for the Gulf Coast and most of the Gulf Coast systems. You're not looking at that kind of sensitive You're looking at marshes sub aqueous vegetation, which can usually handle sediment flow into that area I don't know you might want to talk there can be some issues with fresh water flow into oyster reefs But you know historically there were oyster reefs all over the Gulf Coast So, you know, they might shift a little bit in placement, but you're still going to have plenty of oysters on the Gulf Coast I think that to that good Yeah, thank you for that question server went back there Can you discuss both benefits and possible Disadvantages to dredging every session it seems In the maryland general assembly. There are bills to permit dredging And it's very difficult to determine whether it's a beneficial option How can we determine whether that's a good thing or a bad thing to do in the bay? I guess some of it depends on What your your values are I mean, you know, so if you're If what and what the purpose of the dredging is I think One of the things that I was trying to make the case is where there is dredging That's when it needs to be used beneficially so You know, we're a we're a beach organization and work on conservation So I don't have a position on whether something should be dredged for navigation or not Maybe it should maybe it shouldn't that's you know, not something I work on but If you're going to dredge for navigation if you want to keep a channel or an inlet open so that ships can get in and out And I'm not going to take a position on whether you should or not But if you're doing that then you might as well make use of that sediment That is being picked up from the bottom of an inlet or the bottom of a river bed And and put it to a place that needs it like an eroding march or an eroding beach Do you follow up? It was one of the first slides that we looked at and it was very troubling to me in the sense that there were Structures houses that appeared on a downhill slope Very close to the beach Is that a good idea? And that it it seems that if we were to Determine whether we should do that today assuming it's empty Should we be putting you know structures so close to the beach and then on a downhill slope? Thank you Yeah, I think you raise a really good point that Communities are becoming more and more aware of Vulnerability and by doing things like vulnerability assessments hoping we're hoping the awareness is raised more of Avoiding areas that we should further develop Um, and even there's more and more conversation about retreating from areas that we have already developed So it's becoming obvious that you know, there's a lot of existing Building and infrastructure and property that's going to Be destroyed because of increasing coastal storms and impacts so it's I don't see You know a near-term flip of people You know suddenly not wanting to to develop along the coast or in other risky areas But I think we need to keep raising awareness about those increased risks I'll just add one thing In the congressional solutions that we talked about and the sort of integration of you know people and infrastructure And is I think there needs to be there needs to be additional funding so that communities that are repeatedly hit by flooding or repeatedly You know in harm's way There's funding to buy out those houses. There are folks out there that don't want to I mean You know you hear all those stories of like oh, they've been flooded 30 times and they're rebuilding Well, you know what chances are they probably don't want to rebuild But it's really challenging to get a buyout even if there's money available It's challenging and if there's no money available Then you're basically asking people to throw away their life savings in their home to move So I think that's another thing congress can do is is make that funding available and also work with the various federal agencies to make it easier Particularly for for, you know low income often less educated Communities often communities that have particularly in Louisiana. There's strong Vietnamese population where language issues are really challenging You know to make it easier for communities to understand what their options are to no longer reside in flood risk areas And to that point, I'm glad that you mentioned that because the house house financial services committee did report out and national flood insurance program reform and reauthorization bill and now Looking for the senate to take action obviously for it to come to the floor and the house, but that's um That's a uh, both an insurance program and a risk management program risk mitigation. So, um, I think that's something also keep in mind david I may have missed it, but I don't think any speaker mentioned fema and my question will be there's talk about Significant increase in pre-disaster mitigation funding from fema Do you see any of that funding somehow flowing Into nature-based brazilian Thanks for that great question. Um, so fema is now FEMA is a very important agency in this context because a lot of funding derrick mentioned post disaster Most of that's coming from fema um, they have a lot of money that they invest in risk reduction mitigation through post disaster and also through programs like The flood insurance program So right now they have they Last year there were congress reformed the staffer act and the pre-disaster mitigation program creating this new program That's going to greatly increase the amount of funding available for pre-disaster mitigation, which is great So we're going to see a three four fold going from about 200 million to maybe even 800 to a billion dollars a year Which is great The fema's right now has an open call for input on how they should structure that program and one of The nature conservancy and I know some other organizations that we work with Are going to be emphasizing the need to invest in natural infrastructure as part of that program FEMA already does some of that, but I would say it's not Prevalent use of a lot of their funds, but they have funded floodplain mitigation They do buyouts That's definitely A common use for some of their mitigation funds But we do need to see greater investment and greater understanding of The role that natural infrastructure plays in that context Great question, and thank you for raising the disaster recovery reform act Any any other questions? Hi, um, you spoke to the effectiveness of nature-based solutions to storm sort of buffering Can any of you speak to sort of How we have the Sort of repair of those ecosystems after a storm compared to hard or gray infrastructure How do they hold up themselves? Sure, um, so Sorry, I can't quite hear. Okay. Sorry um So we'd have done some preliminary monitoring, but The storms that have recently happened. It's sometimes difficult to do A very detailed monitoring project in a quick turnaround to get a very Reliable scientific type result, but many of the projects that were implemented In our florida region, for example, we did have several living shorelines that were impacted Post by the storms and post storm it looked like they were still intact And so just from a you know, a very preliminary assessment It seems like many of these types of projects do Do survive the storm? I know there has been a couple of studies on the Post hurricane impact in some other areas and comparing In particular hardened infrastructure and the nature-based infrastructure and it and it did seem that some of the nature-based infrastructure had survived More successfully and that there was for example behind some of the Properties bulkheads the erosion had occurred behind it Which is very, you know, this is the opposite of what you want and that In similar types of areas where living shorelines had been implemented that hadn't occurred in the same way So potentially that those having those bulkheads had increased the potential for erosion and there's a few studies on that I'm happy to dig those out and send them to you if you're you're interested, but I don't know if you have anything to add there No, just um anecdotal so nothing steady based just that um natural systems, you know tend to take a short-term hit but then come back In health pretty quickly, but it's really going to depend on the type of ecosystem and the geography, but generally There is a pretty strong regenerative process for natural systems And similarly have seen you know You might take a little bit of degradation it comes back pretty quickly versus You know when you compare to gray infrastructure there tends to be erosion and scouring and undermining of those structures during or after storm events so similar and Sarah did Derek, sorry I just was curious if There there was a mangrove study showing how um at least The mangroves protected infrastructure. Yeah, I'm not I know we've done some work on that and I'm not up on What the results are but I've done we did some photograph evidence of areas that were protected by mangroves But um, yeah, I think our golf program has done some further study on that Sorry, Derek. Yeah, that's fine. I was just going to again sort of come back to some policy prescriptions two things I'd put in a plug for engineers, um, you know engineers design most hard structures and uh Engineers should be involved in designing risk reduction natural systems too. Um, I think a lot of time But if you want to if you want to have distinct protection or or risk reduction You need to start including some of that engineering values And and we've been doing that on beach and dune systems probably more than any other natural coastal system because we've been doing it for 80 years um, and then this this sort of policy prescription of that is I would say I think this is a big, um A big need in this community is to be able to have Some standardized engineering guidelines and understanding of both the protection benefits as well as the regenerative regenerative benefits I know Uh, the army core of engineers is working on that. I think nature conservancy is too But I think I would hope that in the next five to ten years we'll have a much better answer to that question rather than just anecdotal We'll actually have some engineering specifications to say You know this type of this type of natural infrastructure can provide this much risk reduction and can take this long to Return, but we just don't have that yet Thank you Any other questions? We are at 4 30. So How about if if you have additional questions? I think our speakers might be able to stay for a couple minutes afterwards And um, I just uh, want to thank our panel so much. Please join me in Welcome to our panel and I want to thank all of you for coming today and Also just a reminder on July 11th There will be an energy efficiency renewable energy expo here in the Rayburn building in the foyer. So Come on down, but thank you