 Hello everybody and welcome to this first live event of the digitally competent educational organizations MOOC that is called School and Technology and Indivisible Binomial. My name is Nerca Renan, I'm one of the moderators of this MOOC, directed by the National Institute of for Educational Technologies and Teaching Training in TEF. This MOOC, as you probably know, is based on the European framework for digitally competent educational organizations that has been developed by the joint research center in Seville and it has been developed by Linda Castañeda, Fernando Trujillo and David Álvarez. So as you know, this framework presents a great variety of elements on reflection and it works to integrate technologies in schools seeking to improve student learning somehow and to help us go through different elements of the MOOC and also the framework we have here with us, two out of the three authors of the course and they are Linda Castañeda and Fernando Trujillo, welcome both and thank you very much for being here with us. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Okay, so just to give the audience a little bit of a background of both of you, Linda Castañeda holds a degree in Paraguay University of Murcia and a PhD in Educational Technology at the University of Balearica Islands. She's also an associate professor in the Department of Didactics and School Organization of the Faculty of Education at Murcia as well. And she also writes, research and gives lectures about the impact of technology on teaching and learning processes. If you want to know more about Linda, please visit her website or follow her on Twitter with her handle Linda CQ. I think it's fine, Linda. Yeah, that's it. Linda CQ on Twitter and everybody on the web. Okay. And on the other side of the ring, we have Fernando Trujillo and he holds a doctorate in English Philology and he is a university professor in the Department of Didactics of Language and Literature. He teaches at the Faculty of Education, Economics and Technology of Delta from the University of Granada. He has been a deputy dean of research and international relations of this faculty from the year 2002-2008, where he is currently head of the Department of Didactics of Language and Literature in the same faculty. He's also a founding member of Conec Padreza and he usually writes in Trujillo and Spanish. Amanda, I hope the introduction is fine for you. Please, please. It's wonderful. Perfect. I was not prepared for the boxing analogy. I haven't brought my gloves and I'm afraid I'm in disadvantage. Is it the right one? Is it the right analogy? We need it, but it's a gentleman ring, you know. Yeah, we will use kisses and hugs instead of gloves. Yeah, maybe. Okay. And just for the audience to know that the webinar is being recorded, so we will share it afterwards in the same page of the collab that people used to join today. So, I think without further ado, we should start. Fernando and Linda, are you ready? Sure. Go. Okay, so first question. According to you, what do you think are the main mistakes that teachers and schools have done when trying to integrate technology into education? That's a good one for you, Linda. Talking about mistakes of teachers and the schools. Go. No, I think I personally believe that it's very difficult to speak about mistakes when you speak about how teachers or how the schools are trying to survive to the wave of technology or the wave to trying to get the best service or the best right of education to students. So thinking in mistakes is quite difficult and quite unfair with them. But from my point of view and with the experience from all the teachers and colleagues that are near to me, I think that the most important mistake that we are doing, that we are making is thinking that education, technology, organization, parents, students and learning and so on and so on and so on, work in different manner and work differently. We can make different analysis from any part and with the different part just together, just isolated, we can understand the entire school. And the problem is if we want to really get forward and go beyond the situation of having a small analysis of different things in the school is trying to think globally and trying to integrate everything we know. So this is a big mistake that we have done. We have analyzed how the digital divide is working in the society, how the technology is impacting on our students, how the technology is impacting on the teaching methods, but how they are all working together. I think this problem of isolation of the elements of analysis is the big, big mistake that we have done. So it should be all together working like it's in a joint bubble or something like that, let's say. Yes, it's more or less, it's the difference of thinking individually or thinking systematically, understanding the education as a complex thing that is more than a systemic because we've got the system that it works like a system, every part is depending on the other parts. But in addition, this is a complex, full of agency of people. People has its own problems, its own motivations, its own context and all these contexts and things are including different elements to the entire situation. So if we understand everything in different moments or as a deeper thing, we lost the real perspective of the systemic and complex thing that education is. Yeah, but I would say perhaps that the problem is in the question. Perhaps we could rewrite the question to include. Apart from teachers and schools, we should include the administration because even if we do not consider the problem between public and private schools, considering the administration as this umbrella that covers everything, in many cases and concerning many different aspects, we could talk more about miscoordination and misprovision of hardware and software and connections than of an adequate process of coordination statewide. For example, I wrote some time ago about how many of our educational innovations have been radical in the sense that they were not being built from any established and common and accepted common ground or foundations and we have inserted in the system or we have tried to insert into the system concepts, procedures and also equipment which we were not ready to accept. For example, we have been more focused on equipment than on competence. We didn't think of the teachers' competencies which we could use to then grow on and make it more sophisticated. And then we find out that they have many tablets that they cannot use or some screens that they don't know how to use. We have had personal computers that were not used. We have had tablets and then we will have, in next future, we will have iPads or Chromebooks because the key questions were not asked. One small, tiny example of the problems concerning coordination is that we have been quite unable or the administration has been quite unable to create efficient networks of teachers in which they could share their experiences. And the networks I know at least in Spain are horizontal, have been built by teachers by themselves on their own and have not been promoted by the administration. And then if the administration is able to build a network, it's at least in the case of our nation, it's region-wide, it's based on regions and we have had many problems to share experiences in a more national perspective. Fortunately, in the case of Spain, Educalab has provided with some channels and some ways, some means to create something similar to those networks I was talking about that we have had enormous problems with coordination and provision of hardware, software and connection. For me, in fact, it's more miraculous that we have been able to insert technology into school than a logical process. It's part of the miracle. It's not a logical process but it's not a miracle as well, neither. Because in fact, when you speak about the lack of provision or the lack of the introduction almost forced of equipment or of technologies in school, the question is that are not just technologies in equipments, are also concepts that are not even provided by the administration or by the schools or by the education providers, by, I don't know, companies or from all the actors that are outside from the educational environment and arriving to school and arriving to the language of the government or the language of the schools and we decided to include it, not to implement, to include, to install in the schools without any provision of time for reflection, time and waste for reflecting about it even for thinking in global strategies or in collective strategies for getting this into our logic and to our rationale. When we think on who will think on the next innovation that must be in the education we don't have really the real clues about who is thinking on them because we are trying to implement everything that arrives and we are in the school, we are trying to arrive to the last things in the last moment but without moment and without time for reflecting together about how, what is our plan if we have any? Yeah, because in fact and that's one point that the digital framework is coming to solve we have used the model of Sherpas helping us climb the Himalaya or the Everest or any other high peak and then a collective common shared model of introduction of innovation or technology we have been led by Sherpas who were teachers willing to use technology or to implement any type of innovation because a curious fact about the school at least in Spain is that if you put on one side people who are using technology and then put on the other side people who are designing projects or using gamification or any other type of innovation in fact they are the same people they are not two different sets of people and they are the Sherpas and we didn't have that logical common collective socialized model to introduce technology in our schools my hope is that the framework can help us do what you were telling us think about the logical process of introduction of technology in the school or at least creating the mechanisms first to have the concepts I mean have a look at these blocks of ideas then the mechanisms then the processes the political strategies and so on I think that's one of the good things of the framework and then what happened when the administration for instance has other priorities let's say or they don't focus as much in technology as we wish for instance but the question is not the sorry if I start but the question is not if this is a priority if technology is a priority for the administration the question is for whom education is the priority so the education must be the priority for at least for educators and at least for the schools so administration can give us ways and things and we have to force them to give us these spaces for creating this but we have to take into account that the most important thing for us is education and education today is for a world with technologies the world without technology is a science fiction world if the basic education in any part of the world if you ask for anybody in the world what is basic education for they say for preparing people for living in the world this has many meanings but this big meaning implies a world and this world is with technology so even if the technology is not a priority for the administration it must be a kind of the transversal thing I'm taking into account in order to let's say create other policies okay great thank you I have another question so the digital framework of citizen competence has been through many years of development and implementation in all the different areas including also the educational sphere so to what extent do you Fernando or Linda think that this new framework can help us to integrate technology in the classroom okay just to be coherent with what I've just mentioned for me the framework first can help us to consider all the relevant aspects of the digital implementation in educational context not only schools but any type of formal or informal educational setting but then once you consider all those relevant aspects which can be improved and can be expanded but in the framework you have at least those topics you should consider it can help us we could say face the implementation it can help us have a clear layout of the different steps of the process for example when we started the project in Spain school 2.0 we didn't have a clear layout of the phases we had to cover until technology was to be used in a classroom in a maths classroom in a science classroom and then apart from this fact of having all the relevant aspects into consideration and having a clear facing of the process ahead I think that the framework can help us move from the political and organizational aspects of the digital competence digital competence in organizations to the more pedagogical aspects I think that for many years in school we have lived in a sort of false fake image that schools were concerned with curriculum were concerned with pedagogy and that political decisions and all those decisions taken by the stakeholders in the offices were not relevant to us and I think that the framework makes a good move from the political and organizational to the pedagogicals and that is important if we don't want to put the blame on teachers and schools when things are not working as somehow the first question was trying to imply the blame is to be put on all of us on society as a whole which is not given to teachers and schools on many occasions the tools to work with and then finally I think that inserting this idea of professional competence of professional development into this political and social and organizational context is really helpful it makes us aware that our own competence and development are social concepts not individual concepts in itself on many occasions we restrict competence to an individual layer and that's at least unfair for the individual competence is a social context is a social concept sorry it's not just individual and I feel that the framework which is under continuous revision I think that the actual this actual version of the framework really pictures this idea of social and political development of the digital competence and for me it's one of the big points in this new version in this new document I think I agree with you I definitely agree with you and I understand and there is one thing that you have commented at least you say competence is a social thing and is a situated thing when you speak about competence you have to speak about context so until now or until this moment not this framework there are many frameworks all the frameworks at least but in this with this perspective use European perspective as this big framework is this is the first one to understand that the organization is an important thing in schools as well and it doesn't speak about schools as enterprises as companies and this is wonderful because for the first time we speak about the importance of the organization what is important in the organization how everything in schools is related to the organization to the importance of being a system that works and so on and how this is the only way for being efficient and being good but we don't speak of schools as companies and also if this framework understands if we are competent we are competent in this context with these conditions if we don't have these conditions it's an older moment it's an older competence and it's an older thing so I definitely agree with my colleague I think the social perspective the political perspective as well but the organizational perspective is important even more from the pedagogical point of view when we speak about technology almost always we speak very much about resources we speak very much about methodologies and didactics and strategies of classrooms but we speak very few things about how the school as organization works and how the big institutions must be touched in everything and how we as components of those organizations can touch into this component and we left the institutions as the institutions weren't responsible of being competent and when we start speaking about this framework we start speaking about the competency of the institutions in a world full of discourses about the collective things and the intelligence of the crowds and so on and so on speaking about the institutions as just and the zoom of many people working together not with them but in the same place just only this this is completely out of the time it's not realistic and it doesn't help for the future let's put two examples I was thinking this morning having coffee with my colleagues at the faculty about banking and banks and about how banks are making us use technology to interact with them and they are trying to make it more expensive to go to the bank office than using a digital interface to use all the banking resources so when teachers get used to use banking digital interfaces they will be prepared they will have the competence to use pedagogical digital resources so competence is social and these years we have been living at school we have been trying to develop in teachers digital competence which was not being required in many other situations in their everyday life the common thing five years ago was to go to your bank office and to ask for a loan and have your everything this is changing drastically dramatically in many senses because we could consider the relationship between age and use of digital resources and so on but banks are making us forcefully more competent than we were five years ago so to consider the competence just an educational or professional concept or set of skills is not to be aware of the pervasive existence of technology in society and then for me it's been very curious and I've talked to many principals and head teachers at schools that we were trying to use technology in the classroom but we were really reluctant to use technology to work with our colleagues in the same school so we wanted to use Google Drive with our students but we didn't want to use Google Drive to create, to plan a lesson among two, three teachers and to integrate the curriculum well now I think that now we have really discovered technology to work among teachers and to share information and we are somehow in the way on the road to use technology to this backstage moment in this backstage moment preparing, planning our lessons and so on but it is an easy proof of how everything has not been well planned we tried a flipped learning before being able to make a hangout with colleagues we were at home, for example there is an example that is very evident at least in Spain it's very evident one thing that has happened at least in the last decade this framework answered very well to a realistic thing one thing that is very evident in the reality 10 years ago many good friends of us were starting some of them were innovating in their classrooms and they were working in the classroom with a lot of technology they were the pioneers they were doing the first innovation things they were doing collaboration things with a lot of people around the world with all the different schools doing collaborative projects using a lot of technologies and the majority of them step by step were discovered they discovered that one classroom in a school is not an innovation thing it's just an anecdote and if they really want to change the experience of learning for their students if they want to really make the real change for the life of their students and their communities because schools are not just for students they are the community centers of development so if they want to make this they needed to think in schools they needed to think in how to change their schools organization from the organization level so there is a situation that I have seen this year this 2017 I have seen that the majority most of them most of our friends from a decade ago that were innovative teachers now are innovative head teachers they are principals in their schools because they needed to make the change bigger even if they can forget to use the last thing or to make the most innovative but they need to be together with their colleagues the school must change if they want to change the experience of learning for their students and this framework or a framework like this is thinking on this perspective the unit of change is not the school, is not the teacher the teacher is crucial, the teacher is very important the classroom is basic my classroom is my kingdom but the key level of change of innovation for schools are schools schools as community as people that work together and no one in the community no one in the school can avoid to get this role this participant role this important role in their change or their organization I guess it's not really about changing school organization but also about being aware or raise awareness somehow of the fact that technology does not serve all the purposes so we don't say to teachers you have to use technology in your classroom if you don't have a purpose behind so if you don't have the pedagogical thinking behind then it's useless to use technology and sometimes I think that teachers are forced like Anna was mentioning with the bound example are forced to use technology and they just don't know how to use it they don't find the pedagogical thinking behind I think but if you're thinking technology only just a a device that you have to use in schools this is a very big problem when you have to use when you must to use a device in your school but you are definitely forced to use technology in your classroom and this is not bad, it's the life life is with technology the problem is when you are forced to use a device, a precise device but take care technology is not just the device technology is behind the thinking of our students our students are in a world that is changing the way of thinking the changing the way of getting information, the personal learning environments are completely different now than before and these are impacted on technology, technology is impacting on them and it's about devices that is crucial and it's about the thinking and the purpose and the way of thinking our students and so on for me I work in a faculty of education so I help teachers to be to become teachers and for me using technology on many occasions implies simply helping them discover the potentialities of technology let me give you an example this morning we have been working around a song titled Perfect and we have been using Spotify to listen to the song we have been using Soundhound to have a look at the lyrics we have been using a word to create a rhyme from the song and my final question was have you ever used Spotify or Soundhound to improve your English or to improve your communicative linguistic competences and it's true that on many occasions schools were invited to use a specific piece of hardware but I think that many teachers have made a real effort to give sense to that invitation and obviously many teachers feel the pressure of having spent thousands of euros into pieces of equipment which were not planned and they didn't have a project for those for that hardware and software no one had but they have been able to make sense out of it the problem is that considering what Linda has just mentioned I really feel that even though the framework is normally presented as a circle there are two aspects two related aspects of the framework which for me are really the key, the cornerstone of the framework which are leadership and governance and we've been talking about how those Sherpas how those innovative teachers have become principals in their schools and high schools really feel that they have felt that if you do not take a grip into leadership and try to provoke sometimes or to promote on other occasions that change it doesn't happen because the administration simply publishes a new order or some new instructions I really think that the framework has a clear starting point which is leadership and in a modern sense obviously distributed leadership leadership to provoke a systemic change systemic transformation leadership which is leadership for education and leadership for learning and not just for management it's not just a sort of type of leadership which is worried about common everyday tasks it is a transformational leadership I really feel that our focus must be on leadership and how that leadership is put into practice which is what we normally called governance and from that moment when the school accepts its own leadership things start happening and transformation is possible I'm afraid I totally agree with you but granted my English friend said granted nonetheless apart from leadership leadership definitely is a key crucial thing and also the role the self responsible thinking of teachers of their own role even if they don't have the perspective of being the leadership part of the leadership of the school if they don't have this role or they don't feel they are part of this leadership team in a school if anybody in this can see this framework critically and try to localize themselves on this framework they can see what is their own responsibility and how connected is the responsibility that historically has been with my students and my class in my things and how this responsibility is changing right now in a different thing now I'm not responsible just from my class or my students and my teaching things but also my organization is also part of my responsibility and I can be or not be part of the leadership team but even if I'm not the leadership team I have a big responsibility on it give me just one single second there is no although no however no bad I agree with you the problem is that we as teachers have always been part of the organization I mean the teacher who enclosures himself or herself in the classroom is also creating a type of organization which is destructured which is misorganized which is not cooperative which is individualistic in the best sense which may be competitive now I am the science teacher nobody teaches better than me so this moment in which we have become aware of the importance of thinking globally in terms of the whole school this moment in which for example we have we accept that we need whole school projects for everything the curriculum is not divided into blocks the curriculum is a whole school approach to knowledge and to ways of teaching so this moment is when leadership is effective when teachers do not have this global way of thinking in an educational context we have an inefficient type of leadership in the sense that teachers were not cooperating with the evolution with the with the life of their school thinking that their role or their task is just teaching their subject matters hidden into their classrooms they are provoking an inefficient type of organization and I think that the framework is also calling our attention to that type of inefficient type of organization through poor types of leadership and I think that's a good point it's a good call for us it's not bad to know that either way we are provoking different types of leaderships which are inefficient or efficient depending on our own implication on the whole on the whole school definitely precisely talking about leadership both of you so I want to take place to introduce the next question so you know that the framework offers seven different elements so three focus on pedagogy and three related to organizational issues and the last one refers to the technology part so technology instead so what do you think these elements have been organized in two different areas instead of three instead of three well when we decided to do the organization of the MOOC organization of the course we try to think in the how a teacher in the reality think on their school and the technology is a question that is transversal to everything we think in technology as a transversal thing trying to speak again of technology as a single thing that is differentiated of everything if we see the whole framework is around many many areas precisely about the organizational things and the pedagogical things that are in the same thing but more or less the organization and the dynamics is more close to the reality and in the middle is technology that technology is affecting everything so working in technology as a different thing apart from these two I think is not thinking in the transversal of this part so I think we decided to do this understanding that the third part that is technology is included in everything and must be included in everything as a crucial part of every part I think if I'm not wrong I think that was our rational for doing this no no no I think you're not wrong there was a rational behind it if I'm not mistaken you were involved in the group proposal of the framework right I agree with obviously I agree with Linda I think technology is pervasive is everywhere is transversal is operational both in organizational and pedagogical sense so for us to make a distinction was not coherent in fact is not coherent with all the speech or debate we are having we are not talking about technology as the third leg of this chair we are making it's pervasive you can contemplate technology as a hinge in between organization and pedagogy you can bet in a school technology should be and is in many different schools an instrumental part a basic part for the maintenance and development both of the organizational aspects pedagogical aspects of our core work so for us it was more logical to make these two element organization or two element distinction instead of three and I hope many teachers will coincide with us and then we will have to talk to the authors of the framework if they agree with us with us on that or no it's just a decision when you are preparing the design of an instructional device as a MOOC it's not we have to make this special organization of the framework but perhaps the best thing to do is to assume the framework as a flexible device as a flexible instrument for us to reflect on for us to design our own organizations for us to criticize our own organizations or to criticize the administration's role on it and that's what we have done to think of the framework as a flexible and multi-faceted and complex way of approaching technology in educational context actually if you want to make the framework yours if you want to use any framework, our rationale when we design this course we think in how this would be connected with the reality of the education and the training of teachers when a teacher goes to this kind of framework they need to understand what is happening there and you need to get critically on this and understanding what is behind and trying to make it close to you and for us and for our teachers technology is definitely not the question even if everybody is speaking about technology everywhere the most important thing for our teachers and most important teaching for us are the things about what happens in our class and what happens in our organization and if we are going to work in a framework for organizing in a digital competent way we have to think in these two things that are the most important thing for us in our day-to-day life it's not about abstract things about technology that are full of artificiality in our reality so for us it's very important to be critical to get a good approach to this kind of things right? I can hear you sorry it was muted I was saying that what do you think should be the first element of the framework that then a school should take into account first according to you do you think that it will make sense or it could be feasible to approach all the elements of the framework at the same time or just one by one I'm afraid I have already answered some way that question for me the cornerstone as I mentioned before is leadership and governance practices you would go for that first then in the sense that they can provoke the awareness that we need to start making the wheel go around assuming that the framework has this circle style the wheel goes round once leadership and governance practices realize that technology and organization and education can work well together and I would go for that I would vote for leadership and governance Linda, what about you? I can say the same I would say yes definitely leadership is a good corner a good part and if there is another good part that is in our hands because there are other parts that are not in our hands that is just organized whatever we have that is structured for example but there is another very important thing that is related to the organization that is collaboration and network because if we can get a good leadership style and as we have said previously and a good collaboration and a good feeling of collaboration and a good map of what is my role inside the organization and what is the role of the participants in the organization and can we get or add something and value for this organization is very crucial for this change so for this framework I think leadership is definitely the key corner and the other key corner is collaboration and networking because even if we have a good leadership but we don't have a good collaboration strategy is quite difficult to get at anyway I presume both of us or the three of us would agree on the fact that the important thing is not one factor, one element but we could say the interplay of all the elements definitely leadership may or should provoke that cooperation that collaboration that Linda was talking about and that collaboration and networking should deal with content and curricula and assessment is included into curricula and in order to provide for that new approach to content and curricula you must logically consider on the one hand your own professional development and you must have a critical look critical analysis, a serious professional critical analysis of your own teaching and learning practices and then on the other hand you need to have a critical analysis of your infrastructures so it's a good question to concede that which is the cornerstone of the whole wheel of elements in the framework it's a good point to start with but I think we could reinforce the idea that the framework is powerful because of the interplay of all the factors and they are all related one of them is helping the other provoke transformation provoke efficiency provoke satisfaction when you don't have adequate infrastructure you feel frustrated and that frustration somehow imposes you not to change your teaching practices because you say okay I will do nothing different from what I've been doing for these 10 years because you are not changing the infrastructure so that I can connect the internet so the keyword is not one of the elements the keyword may be interplay of all the elements and all the factors perhaps I think understand the globality and the interconnection of everything understanding the systematic character of these kind of frameworks is a wheel because you have to make a good picture for doing it easy to remember but it's not a wheel it's much more much more complex than a wheel that's it I want to ask a last question so the framework is open to the inclusion of new specific elements depending on the type of educational institution and since you're a university teachers and according to you what do you think are the elements that should be included in the framework in order to meet the needs of the universities of higher education that's a good question sure that's a good question let me say it's my opinion that the framework satisfies in a in a generic way the expectations one may have from the university I could be I could use the framework at university however I think that at university we have we should be deeply concerned with the concept I'm thinking about I'm thinking of these days and that's the concept of agency agency I'm tired of university students being patient receivers of wisdom from their professors and lecturers in the 21st century university students will have to be agents agents of their own learning because as in the x-files series knowledge is out there so students must be agents of their own learning students must be agents of their own future career so we will have to talk about entrepreneurship we'll have to talk about so agency for me is a very important concept and perhaps we could include there is a reflection of agency concerning university lecturers and university students and we could develop the framework in that sense for example assuming that for me the framework is correct for educational higher education organizations what's your opinion? I'm curious about that from my point of view this framework is a very generic framework when you speak about educational institutions in this general big perspective that this is this approach you can almost fit in everything because you have created a framework for everything and everything has a lot of differences between them not just in context but just in what is the purpose of education when you change the purpose of education the entire framework can change but apart from that you can use it for the majority of the things when I think in higher educational institutions we have a nature as a higher educational institutions we have two things that are not included on this framework and I think they are very very important for the universities and it's research first of all and the research and the nature of teachers at the university we are not just teachers we are teachers and researchers and as teachers and as researchers the problematic environment of research in the digital in the digital era is completely complex and different we can make another wheel in the top of this or behind this or whatever this but it's another completely different wheel thinking about digital scholarships and digital science and so on and so on and so on and in addition universities in their roots have the social development in terms of scientific and social development the social compromise of the universities and this is not included on this it's included in a shy way for the older kind of institutions as schools and higher education and secondary schools but for the university it is not included at all almost so in this piece of cake in this red of piece of cake we have to include all the things related to research that are very complex and very important for us and they are directly related to the leadership with the teaching, with the professional development with the assessment, with the content curriculum and with the assessment not just for students for programs of education and for the institution itself but also for the assessment and promotion of professionals so it's quite difficult this is research and in the other hand it's also the social role of the university and for managing the social role of the university and being a digitally competent social and social comprometed engaged higher education institution we must think in many other things that have to be included on this framework for understanding universities as a digital institution great thank you, that was a very nice answer I have been checking the chat in case there were some questions but we don't have more so maybe we can then up here if you want so it has been really nice thank you very much it has been really interesting having you on the other side talking about this, about the framework and everything that we should do or we should change in order to make our schools trying to be more digitally competent so we have talked about this technology as a transversal element so I was taking some notes not to miss anything but it is an important thing so it is the importance of using technology as a transversal element rather than an independent element also you mentioned the leadership as a first element to take into account in order to push the others well in general many interesting things so I just wanted to say thank you very much Linda and Fernando for this very nice presentation it has been really interesting it has been very interesting to chat with you thank you very much it was a pleasure and I hope we finish talking about the university, well I hope university researchers will get to use the framework and start making research with it, that would be good to read about the framework beyond the papers and the institutions that are providing us with the framework themselves so let's take the framework let's carry it to the university and let's make research at schools and at university and then we will be able to talk in proper terms so let's go for that Linda let's go for that you all have some work to do many and you you are in the core of the European Union this is the place for moving many things so you are in the perfect place ok so you are invited to come here and help me out whenever you want I didn't want to finish without mentioning that tomorrow there will be another webinar in the MOOC with Pan Campiles if I'm pronouncing this correctly ok from the joint research center in Seville where we will talk we will discuss about the selfie tool that as you probably know some of you probably know it's a self-assessment tool the European Commission is developing at the moment and that will allow schools and educational organizations to understand their digital competence better and also to understand how to better self-regulate competencies so if you are interested in joining it will be in Spanish but I'm sure many people will be interested in this and you can join us also at 8 tomorrow it will be tomorrow at Central European Time and you will find the link in the same in the MOOC, in the core section of the MOOC and I think that was everything from my side I wanted to point out just thank you very much again, Linda and Fernanda has been really really nice to have you here and for the rest of the audience just stay tuned to social media channels Facebook group, the telegram channel that we also have we probably also some extra resources for the MOOC and also in Twitter with the hashtag it's com or for any update related to the course just wanted to say again thank you Fernanda Alina for her kind word to say goodbye thank you very much for everything and hope to see you soon and enjoy the night goodbye well thank you both Linda and Nair and thank you to our friends Jesus, Maria and all the people who make this possible these hangouts we are the three to come out on the screen but there are many people behind the camera on our social media the team and so thanks also to them and kisses and hugs to you all I hope we'll meet together quite soon hope to see you soon thank you very much again and thank you everybody for joining today bye bye