 As this is our fourth one of these cafe talks, so Joe with a weed scientist, Naim and I are still health specialists and we really just wanted to give an opportunity to ask some questions for PP and use of cover crops. We've had some great discussions but hopefully today will be a little bit different even. So when you're using cover crops it's important to kind of identify what you want to do with those cover crops. So in most cases with prevent plant return to manage water but you can also double up on some of those goals by improving the seed bed, breaking some compaction, catching nitrogen that may have in the fields. I'm guessing that not a whole lot of nitrogen was applied last fall so there may not be a whole lot of that to catch but but there are plenty of different options if you can figure out what you want to do on your field that really is helpful for designing a mix. And then also thinking of the next crop you want to put on there in 2021 and making sure that we don't pick something that's going to cause issues with your next crop. When you pick your mix I usually pick mine based on root structures because I think below ground most of the time. But here's an example of something like dwarf physics rapeseed which has a great root structure on it, a nice kind of thick root with also some of these fine roots that can build aggregates. But if you have canola in rotation you don't want to use brassica like dwarf physics rapeseed or radish or turnip because of club root concerns. So we also need to be aware of what disease issues you may have between your cash crop and if those cover crops are host so we need to stay away from them in your cover crop mix. This is another example of a PP field from last year that when they pushed up the grazing date to September 1st this is what they put out there to graze. And this is using plenty of moisture. But another example of if you're going to go to corn next year make sure that you include a grass or a legume in your mix because both of them are mycorrhizal. So they form those fungal associations that you need for phosphorus uptake in corn. They kind of prime the soil and get it ready for that. And if you don't have those associations like if you just have a radish and turnip that you're broadcasting because it's convenient and the seed size is small you're going to have issues with phosphorus uptake in your corn the following year. So make sure you're including either a legume with it like peas are a great option or just some kind of oats or barley or something with it that's going to be mycorrhizal to be to set the soil up for your corn next year. Here's another example of a full season cover crop mix. This one wasn't on PP but it was intended for grazing and high water use. So this is a sandy soil with a very high water table. And sorghum is one of the major components in this mix. It's an excellent warm season for drying out wet soils. Typically we look at two pounds per acre is enough in a mix so it won't take over the mix but it'll be a part of the mix. It puts on a lot of biomass so you can see how tall it is here. It dies at the first frost or sign of freezing. So it'll die quickly in the fall but if you feel like this is too much biomass then maybe this isn't the one for you. Back in when was it 2014? We had some plots down in Whoppedon where we looked at some different cover crop mixes on just the edge of a field because we wanted to see what the different mixes would do for moisture and also nitrogen and to get familiar with what options there are. So here's what we found. This light blue line are plots where we just used tillage or just kept the soil bare and chem fallow on those acres. And then these are all cover crop mixes that we use. And so actually as we got more diverse in our mix, the more moisture we used. So you can see this mix, the screen line here is cereal rye, dwarf Essex rape seed, we had some sugar beet seed in there, sunflower pea and flax. And what you can take away from this really is that the moisture content is dried evenly down through the soil profile. So down to 35 inches is where we were measuring versus where you just use tillage to control the weeds and manage PP where you still have this bulge of moisture right below the surface that's going to cause issues for next year. So whatever cover crop you put out there is going to help make that soil profile more uniform and dry right out. Here's the nitrate and levels in the soil you can see here again is the is the bare soil and how the nitrate just stuck around and probably leached through that profile. But then here the cover crops took up that nitrate and held on to it for whenever we still don't know when it would be released back to the next crop but but at least held on to it and kept it as a resource. And then this is what the what some of those diverse mixes look like in the winter going into this is December 31st. So you can see that the residue cover really isn't that much different from this is barley residue over here. It's really not that much different and it wouldn't be that difficult to plant into all this that biomass we had really just kind of melts away with some of those radish and turnip these are basically turned into styrofoam they're easy to run equipment through so the best thing to do is to leave that biomass in the soil where it can decompose well versus working it up in the fall because maybe you're a little bit nervous about how it might be the next spring. So when you work up these radish and turnips they just sit on the surface and they freeze and they're really difficult to manage the next year. You know there's some conversation about should you do a monoculture or a mix either way you look at it you need to start with a clean field. So make sure your weeds are under control if this wind ever dies down so we can do some spraying. But we'll talk about some of those options. So here's a $20 an acre mix, 28 pounds of radish turnip sunflower oats and peas. So this is a great diverse mix. Maybe good for fields where you don't have a lot of weed pressure unless you can take care of that before you seed it. But do any repair on roots, do any ditching you need to do to get water to move before seeding a cover crop because they won't fix roots. They'll the help manage the soil there but they're not going to fix deep roots. So make sure you prep the field first. And then here's a monoculture with cereal rye. You can see that mid summer it'll stay low to the ground. It won't head out or anything because it needs to vernalize over winter. So this is a good option, a good cheap option for for fields. If you're using grasses one of the things you could do is consider mix of grasses like oats and barley or you know rye and oats or something like that. And maybe that'll help you avoid issues with PP payments just because there's no chance you're going to take it for harvest. But that's a conversation to have with your with your insurance agent. And you should think about terminating a cover crop, especially if it's just a grass before it heads out. That's going to keep the the vegetative material easier to manage unless like straw. So you could think about that too. And Andrew Friskap was telling me that oats are more favorable on 2020 PP than other grasses before wheat or barley crop next year. They're they can host scab and things like that, but they're not a good host and some root routes may be possible. But it's low low risk compared to other options. So so that's a good thing to know too. And I think Andrew is going to be on the next episode of field check that we have come out on Monday. So talking about that because we want to think about disease transfer amongst grasses as well. So that's what I have to kind of start the conversation. Great. We've got 19 people on the call now. So does anyone have a question that they or field they want to talk about? Can you come up with some options? I'm going to ask Joe some questions then. So so Joe when I was driving on 94 I saw just a bunch of fields that were that were clearly corn that was harvested this spring or this summer maybe even now I guess with summer and it had a lot of weed pressures in it and a lot of those weeds were were fairly large. You know what what would they need to do to manage that before I'm coming in and seeding a cover crop or something like that? Well it would kind of depend on the weeds. Yeah depending on where you're at and what you have they may still be largely glyphosate susceptible in which case I always kind of hate to still say glyphosate can still work on some large weeds as long as they're not resistant. So we've got some of our resistant weeds getting quite large now too and at that point one of the best options and you're gonna not like when I say this word but telling them would be pretty good especially if you have resistance and as large as some of them are getting. Plus we have some of our weeds starting to flower already. I know we found lambs, quarters and water hymps that are already flowering and become a little bit more difficult to control once they are flowering. So in that case you know if they're still small and flowering you could do something like grimoxone which would then allow to plant a cover crop because there's no residual there. But some of these that are starting to get away from us depending on the weeds that are in there you know tillage may be the next best thing based on weed size. Other potential options but we really recommend sometimes more in pasture settings would be mowing and then allowing it for a couple days of regrowth but tillage would be more effective than that in most cases especially on these fields that you're still looking at seed bed preparation if you wanted to plant a cover crop. Would vertical tillage be enough to knock back some of those weeds or would it not be not be enough? From what I've seen they'd have to be very small. Vertical tillage not really a good weed control tillage tool. Like I said when they're small it can we can see some of these differences in vertical tillage in the fall uprooting some winter annuals when they're small and shallow rooted but you know anything that's I'll just say over a couple inches tall probably won't work too well and then once you're over six inches tall they're really deep enough that a vertical tillage won't they'll just take them off. Okay yeah we don't want well you certainly don't want to see cover crops into something that you know you didn't kill all the weeds first whether it's with tillage or those systems I'd hate to see some of those no-till fields get worked up with tillage to control the weeds so I'm wondering what other options there may be if somebody's maybe four or five years into no-till and they don't want to work up that field but they've got you know a lot of weed pressure because there's nothing they could do till they got the corn off. I did see a really nice well it was a corn field that was being harvested that had rye flown on to it last year and the rye had actually was headed out in that corn field as they were harvesting and they said the trackability was unbelievable they didn't have any issues with all that green material there so maybe if we're anticipating hopefully we don't have this issue again next year but if we're anticipating these you know spring harvest you know on some of those fields that we know are going to be challenging maybe getting the rye out there whether it's flying it on or something this year and being kind of proactive to get it growing for next year and managing weeds and and giving some traffic ability if we have to harvest corn again in the in the spring but hopefully that doesn't happen nobody wants to think about that I'm pretty sure. Abby I wonder if if there was some standing corn stocks if if a fire could be a way to control some of those weeds if you still had that and you wanted to avoid that tillage past. Yeah I think that's a good idea Joe fire is pretty effective on weed seeds isn't it? Well two different things here on the piece if Tim's talking about the standing weeds then it should you know unless there's some fire hardy ones which there could be should you know control some of those weeds that are in there. Weed seed it's going to vary by species I'd really like to dig into the literature to figure out but basically the harder the decode the more likely it would be to survive fire and what we've learned for weed seed is you basically want to have like for windrow burning narrow and taller rows to get the fire deeper in general talking to weed scientists not only the U.S. and around the world we're shying away from fire as weed seed control simply because they tend to get up and move but if you're going to for the corn stocks anyways and could do them safe manner then it certainly would help control some of the weeds that are out there. And then yeah you wouldn't have to till the ground if you didn't want to. No that's I mean I've seen some some fields where you know we like to think of burning the stocks and the residue is kind of the last option after you try several other things but but I have seen you know fields where where we did burn them they were about five years into no till and that was our only option really to get a crop in the ground so after it was burned the the crop was immediately planted and and then they followed it with cover crop to try to replace some of that material that they burned some of the organic matter that maybe was lost or some of the nitrogen that could have been lost so um so I think it's pretty critical in that situation to make sure that you get another cover crop in there try something to to kind of build the soil back up a little bit after burning. We've got a question from Kelly that says what is the best burn down option for no till glyphosate the phosinate and paracot I don't know these word weed terms but what is the best application before after planting and how many days before planting weeds are large as large as fields and have not been touched yet. And so again it kind of depends on what's in the field in general as long as you don't have a lot of glyphosate resistant weeds we kind of say glyphosate will be the best because it manages the most weeds it's got a large broad spectrum of weeds that can control especially if you have grasses that are in there that are starting to grow it's going to be the the best of those herbicide on grasses. Next of those three I'd go with paracot um so glyphosinate can be good most people by liberties the the main brand name there's plenty of generics now. With glyphosinate we need heat and humidity to make it work best we certainly have the heat yet right now um humidity kind of depending on where you're at in the state it tends to work better in the eastern half of the state which is probably where everyone's calling in from for this purpose um and uh I'd like to be a little bit more human but we certainly have the daylight hours and the heat right now the glyphosinate would probably be pretty close to paracot. I put paracot a little bit higher though especially on grass activity it's going to be a little bit better than glyphosinate um something else we could do with glyphosate to help out some of our resistant weeds especially if you have maristail or horseweed in there we can put an ounce of sharpening that'll help some more broadleaf weeds that glyphosate may be weak on and it still allows us to do some of our cover crop options particularly small grains or if you want to put field peas in we could have that ounce of sharpen in there and it won't have residual it won't have a whole lot of residual at all and it shouldn't affect at least those parings of cover crops. As far as best application before after planting um either or at this point you know if you want to plant today while it's windy um and have this window this weekend where we um should have hopefully some lower winds then i'd give what done today where you could get done and then spray on this weekend shouldn't see too much of a difference just highest risk is uh depending on what you plant um and how you plant it if you're if you're drilling it in i'd go ahead and drill it and spray it when i can uh find it on i don't think we have enough data of spraying those herbicides over top seed on the surface as to what effect we might have but i'd say as long as the crop isn't up before or after planting you'll be fine um which kind of enters the days before planting i think that answers most that question now we've got some seeding questions looks like avi. Okay let's see what kind of rates for broadcasting oats alone or barley alone that sounds like a good one for naeem since you've been looking at rates and yeah i would say depending upon the situation how early we are planting i would go with 40 45 pounds to 60 pounds maximum that would be the range um and i um if we look at um i would like to ask question one question are you looking to get uh planted on pp acres if that's what you want uh then you may have to wait to plant your cover crop and plant it after after the late planting period which is roughly 15 to 25 days after the final planting dates so that would still mean somewhere early in july so you're going to get very good growth i would stick to about 40 50 45 to 50 pounds per acre that would be the oats and i think the second question abby is about sorghum and sunflower mix sorghum we already discussed marisol mentioned that about two pounds we shouldn't go over two pounds uh sunflowers i'm not 100 sure about but i would also say that's a bigger seed yeah i'm not sure you'd want to broadcast sunflower i don't think you get a good catch um any of those like sunflower and peas right i mean we'd want to get those in the ground especially because peas like to be two inches yep um broadcasting should always be the number second choice um i mean i've done that personally but i would say drilling is always better yeah i agree with that i i think if you know if you are going to broadcast and then maybe thinking about running some kind of vertical tillage over it or something and to kind of throw some soil around um to cover up that seed then then just keep the seed sizes small don't do that with peas or sunflower i don't know sure what size sorghum seed is but it's i don't think it's very big so that could possibly work in a broadcast and then slightly worked in um which i think i think that's why we get so much of the radish and turnip mixes just radish and turnip on these acres is because they're easy to broadcast and you don't have to refill the hopper very much to to get it out there um but definitely you know adding in some of those oats would be a good thing um like naima is saying at 40 pounds or so 40 to 60 um let's see we've got a question again on what is the best planting window early july late july no-till drilling pea uh so they're going to be no-till drilling pea soybean clover sudan grass safflower and buckwheat um and no-till drilling winter wheat into it in september um so we've been talking about that quite a bit naima on the on some of the things that could bolter uh you know go to seed um you know and i think that we mentioned some of the crops which can go to seed we mentioned that if we plant them after 15th of july that would be better if i remember correctly i would i would just plant around the middle of july i would not uh plant them too late because often here in north dakota and i'm sitting in a bubble but it's still i would say that overall we we don't have a big planting um window or growing season so if you plant it if the goal is to you know have decent biomass and root growth i would i would plant it in um at least middle of july late july would be fine too it has worked wonderful wonderfully here uh but i i wouldn't drag it into august personally speaking yeah i think and as long as you don't have i mean radish is the one that concerns me going into early and i won't plant radish before july 15th um just because of the seed production and and honestly if you put radish in early it doesn't put on that that thick root that you want anyways um so in this case she's got peas soybean clovers sudan grass safflower and buckwheat so you may be okay i mean buckwheat grows really quickly and we'll probably go to seed um anywhere where we we've used buckwheat as a full season i haven't had issues controlling it joe have you ever had issues with herbicide and controlling um tamed buckwheat no and to be honest we use that as a indicator species in our adjuvant work where we use cut rates because if we use full rates of herbicides we kill everything so it's buckwheat's relatively easy to control if it did happen to go to seed okay so they they may want to get this seeded they may want to get it seeded early because if they're going to winter wheat in september they've got to get some growth growth on this and i don't see too much in there that would that would concern me for for going to seed the only question i would ask them that um if they planted this this mix for example in middle of july by september there would be very decent growth or what are they going to do are they going to clip it first and then come back and plant winter wheat or spray it kelly if you could give us some feedback on that and if you want kelly you can just unmute yourself too unless some people say they like typing better than talking so it's fine too the other thing i would think in that mix since you you're going to use some soybean in it i'm trying to think what else might be hosts for soybeans this nematode but just be be cautious of that let me look i'm going to see what what we have on our on our web page we have a table with potential cover crops that are hosts for soybeans this nematode and so if you have a cn then you need to be really cautious not to plant those hosts in there so kelly answered abby she said she's going to die exceeding into green possibly roll down the cover crop the only thing i would say that just be careful when you're planting winter wheat i heard john luke cuts used to be here and he used to work on winter wheat a lot he used to say that just before frost or snow cover first snow cover if winter wheat is you know four five three inches tall chances of it surviving in the next year are better so if you planted if your cover crop is competing too much with the winter wheat and you planted it it may germinate but it may not go to the kind of like the you know growth level it should be so there may be more winter kill you know so just keep that in mind and i would say too if you're hoping so she's she's hoping that the frost takes out the warm seasons and leaves the clovers um as far as cold tolerance on clovers marisol has told me before that red clover is one of them is more cold tolerant than things like balanza or crimson so i don't know if you've ordered your mix already and you're trying to figure out which clover you want to put in there but red clover if you want it to overwinter maybe a good option that's kind of what we're using some of our mixes or we want to get it to overwinter and i've seen mixed things on having winter wheat with a cover crop growing in it that over winters or even i had a farmer one time seated put in his winter wheat and seeded radish with it and he he had decent results with that but i've also seen where winter wheat and radish were growing at the same time where it reduced the yield of winter wheat the following year so so it's great to have those covers growing with winter wheat but just be cautious because it may if it's too thick it might reduce your your stand and cause some issues so so maybe having some overwinter is great but not all of it good question so so we'll stay quiet for a minute if anyone has a question they want to unmute and ask have a kelly kelly edit a comment okay um okay considering red clover beer steam clover and yellow blossom sweet clover haven't ordered the mix yet um so yes i think red red clover should overwinter we also have let's see there's chris is on the call and call in both with seed companies i don't know if somebody wants to talk about the um beer steam clover and yellow blossom sweet clover and i would just add one thing that sweet clover is a little bit more salt tolerant and i hope that you're not facing that issue and if you're not facing that issue i would go with the red clover based on marisol's feedback because that's what you want to get out of the clovers yeah and um can we plant those clovers in mid july of a success to produce nitrogen which legume species would you recommend to produce nitrogen um i think i just i haven't had a ton of luck with clovers um even in a full season they just don't put on a lot of biomass it's it's nice that they have the option you know with the red clover to possibly overwinter um but i really i'm i like peas a lot i think they're just um especially inoculated make sure you inoculate whatever legume you're using that seems to be the step i always forget um but i think you need about 60 days to produce nitrogen um to offset the cost of the seed so i usually i usually go with peas if i'm going later in the season like say i'm seeding a legume after wheat harvest um i would go with the fava bean because i really like the dark residue that that produces um and in any mixes i've had where you've used clovers i do just use kind of red clover or with some of the sunflower work we've done we use crimson clover but um but i just i haven't had a lot of luck with it i don't know if anybody else has been trying clovers um just seem like peas really do the trick you know of course then if you're seeding peas you have to figure out how you're going to get those at two inches down um and then some of the other small seeded stuff and that seems to be easy enough to do um setting two different depths but i think um and i maybe i should put that link on the we have a whole prevent plant web page link on the on the ndsu soil health web page and we have all this prevent plant information on there and um i should maybe link to some of the work that marisol has done um that she has on her page her web page that has nitrogen production of legumes she's tested all kinds of different legumes and looked at how much nitrogen they produce in the biomass and um so that may be useful if those people are trying to pick what they want to put in there and joe i'm assuming something like a clover that over winters is easy to take care of the next year and clean up in a field yeah legumes are pretty easy to clean up because i could see you know if we have another kind of you know where we didn't our soils didn't freeze we had tons of different things over winter this year and and i'm wondering you know if that happens again a lot of these cover crops that are on pp could could over winter and you just want to make sure that you can manage it in the spring if that happens yeah i think this this year we saw um some farmers i work with though we don't advise the use of annual ryegrass some farmers i work with like to use it and they had that over winter this year i think some of the radish and turnip over wintered um joe i know you were finding a bunch of weeds early early this year too i don't know if those over wintered or just the seed was right there and i think it's from that case what we were finding well two things we're we have got a lot of calls and emails about some weird winter annual weeds that we don't get in most years and that's kind of linked to the rain last fall so those are over wintered but also many of our summer annuals i think they were you know once the snow melted we weren't frozen at least in the eastern third of the state so i think as soon as conditions are right they germinated kind of earlier than than we would typically see in other years so naeem you kind of mentioned before you know cover crops for salt that are more salt tolerant do you want to talk about those recommendations yeah so um the annuals for example the most salt tolerant ones are barley oats sugar beets and if you just want to have a simple mix you know you could just have barley and oats and sugar beets um if you want to have a legume i would say it's not super salt tolerant but sweet clover would be a little bit more salt tolerant than let's say alfalfa or other clovers but if you're depend depends how high the soil ec is so for example just to give you example if our soil ec is um between four to six or seven you could plant barley oats sugar beet and maybe sweet clover and if you want to graze it which may not be an option it could be option for you even on pp acres we have checked the rules if you planted your cover crop mix after the late planting period and you then cut it or hay it or graze it before november first you could still get 35 percent of your pp payment and you could utilize that for your grazing you know for grazing or haying i would go a bit say if i'm having a mix of three crops um i would put more sugar beet seed because they don't really do very well in terms of competition about 12 pounds of oats 12 pounds of um barley and about four four and a half pounds of sugar beet seed that that would be the seeding rate or mix i would use if you want to use it for hay or grazing then i would go with forage barley forage oats instead of regular barley and regular oats oftentimes i've heard from producers that they have some barley and oats in their bins and if you are not planning to hay or graze utilize that seed but if you're using it for hay or graze because the regular barley the spikes on the airheads are slightly longer and i've heard from guys that um their livestock doesn't like it so that's why the forage forage barley for example the airheads do not have long spikes so the cows like it so that would be the only difference seeding rate will remain the same let's see i see another question here from kelly you're you're really testing us today kelly and i had to look so this is uh we asked a question about sorghum seed and i looked at our grazing cover crops booklet because marisol has done a lot of work in that area for dry matter yield so the question is which is straight which is better straight pipe or sudan grass or sorghum sudan hybrids um so when i look at marisol's table in here she's got five and a half tons per acre dry matter yield on sudan just straight pipe or sudan grass um and if so if you're looking for yield or you know tons per acre here um the sorghum sudan hybrids some of those you can get up to seven and a half or six point eight tons per acre and that's the pampa verde pacas sam and a butcher all these words again here because i don't have sam but if you look in that grazing cover crops booklet on the ndsu sole health webpage um it's page four three and four in there that she's got a bunch of tables on on dry matter production so if you if you want yield um if you want biomass from the from the sudan grass or sorghum sudan hybrids then you can look at here in this in this booklet um which residue be easier to manage with a no-tilt disc drill between the two um i suppose that would depend on how much how much biomass you get and then also the the quality of that material um i'm not sure which one stays vegetative for longer also um the cn ratio so i would say that if there is a legume in that that would help break down the residue faster yeah and that's that's what i've heard i had a a farmer i work with he planted on his pp laster he did barley predominantly barley radish and he had some peas in there um and some of the field he didn't plant the peas deep enough so they didn't establish very well but where he did get them deep enough and then he got peas within that mix of barley and radish um he said the residue planting into this year was was much different it was actually easier to plant into than where he didn't have the peas so like naeem says adding in a legume that has a low c to n ratio um can really help us some of that that grass residue and going into it the next next year and this and this was a this is a farmer who's been i think they've been 35 years no till um so he's not not concerned about residue but he just said it was much it planted much different and easier where he had the peas as part of the mix abby do you remember the blend that we did last year um art that was almost it was mostly peas we did 10 pounds of peas and then we had a couple pounds of sedan grass uh five pounds of oats a couple pounds of radish and a pound of sunflowers we direct seeded um almost all of the acres that we did last year this year into soybeans and uh it just worked phenomenal we were seeding that stuff way before any of the other uh the other crop in the or other harvested crop in the area um just couldn't get around in it and whatnot and it was level and and uh nice seed bed so we didn't have to work it or anything oh nice and that was i mean those are fields you're just transitioning right to to reduce tiller no till on those or right yep so those two those two that we had that we've been working on um you know for the last four or five years um and then we had another whatever 400 acres or so of conventional till that we had seeded this cover on um all seeded between july 24th and august 1st that last week in july we seeded it and uh and that that seemed to be a really nice time frame we got good growth um i mean the sunflowers were three four feet tall the rest of the the rest of the crop was uh was looking good but it was still it was still hanging together this spring and uh really worked well for what we were trying to do again this spring in a wet spring and so are you going to stick with that mix are you going to put something else in there what are you thinking about doing we're thinking about substituting um some millet um probably like some proso millet for our sedan grass um but for the most part i think we're going to stick with that type of a blend i was going to visit with you a little bit more and see if there was anything we should tweak on that um some of it some of it i was nervous we're going to be moving to some of the acres that we've got that are pp'd this year will probably be corn so i wanted to make sure there wasn't any big red flags that uh that jumped out at me um oftentimes we've been seeding soybeans following this um so we haven't had any issue but and do you i forget do you have strip till a strip till machine we don't know conventional till on most of our other acres um because i guess the only thing maybe i think that's a good idea probably to swap out the millet for the for the sedan grass especially have a little bit less biomass going into corn um yeah i don't think i don't think there'd be a whole lot you could change on that you know you get some of the nitrogen in there the nitrogen fixation from the peas and um one thing i've heard about peas this is from joe brecker um you know he does that bio strip till on his fields after wheat and he used to when he was using peas instead of faba beans he would put the peas between where he was going to plant corn the next year just because he didn't want that pea residue to wrap around his residue managers um and so that was one thing that he tried i i wouldn't swap out faba bean for the peas because i think seeding it mid-summer with faba bean i think they're not going to grow as well as the peas would so i don't know i guess that would be just one thing i'd look out for going into corn next year is to make sure that that pea residue isn't isn't going to wrap around your equipment at planting there's a veed question um kelly's last point oh let's see okay so which well okay this back to the sorghum sorghum and sedan hybrids um which ones are higher produces a sorgoline or the root exudate that suppresses weeds i have no idea joe do you know anything about that know which one would produce more of that um as far as the suppressive capability that that's again something that i'd have to really dig into the literature of which weeds were actually tested um but i wouldn't have any good answers on the top of my head and at least for this question she's just wondering which one produces more of those hybrids and i don't know the answer to that one either so joe though you i think you've talked about it on the field check episode this week um as to which even with like cereal rye as far as the why am i drawing a blank on it the allele apathic effect it can have it works better on certain size weed seeds versus others well and that's you know so we know that there is some allele apathic chemicals or compounds that even cereal rye can produce but when we talk about weed suppressive capabilities especially with cereal rye and it would also hold for other cover props it we're really looking at more the biomass they produce and it's um you know some that will be also some extra production of the compounds but really it's more of a biomass to prevent germination um until i talked about in that field podcast is when we look at um cereal rye you know we we can get some you know lower biomass and it's it's partly probably the compounds also partly this competition we won't see a reduction in the germination of weeds but there'll be less competitive um and the overall biomass of the weeds will be lower compared to no to no cover crop when we talk about like true suppression or potential lower count numbers of weeds that's when we have to get into really high biomass and for the for rye the research in the south is you know once you get over 10 000 pounds per acre of biomass that we reduce the germination of weeds that's just because the mat is so thick that sunlight's not getting through to help the weeds germinate and so in that case i as i think i mentioned the podcast i don't know if in a normal if we're using cover crops as like a pre-emergence for instance i don't know if a normal year we get to 10 000 pounds of biomass per acre before our typical planting window of crops this is a a different situation here so let's see we have another question this is probably for naeem um on the salt ground mix that you mentioned what else is good besides sugar beets um can't plant sugar beets because they authority assist applied last spring and the salt beets have a 40 month plant back after authority assist it's a difficult question because uh you know in terms of root crop turnip and radish are not really salt tolerant and then there's club root issue kale is very frost tolerant as a deep root system but i'm not sure whether it's salt tolerant safflowerers are another crop you could plant with barley and oats but you will mostly have crops which are which are very high carbon i'm gearing more towards adding something green so that the residue breaks down quicker it works for no till situation as well as conventional till because then i've seen people conventionally till farmers they just till everything in the fall which basically kind of like you know not good because you know um i don't know lucas to be honest with you if you want to have a loot if you just want to add some green um sweet clover um you know if you're going with barley and oats then sweet clover would be my choice it's not super salt tolerant but it'll work and it will add some green to the mix which in my view is key for the breakdown of the residue i wonder naime do you think there's like a happy medium you know so we know to to manage salts we need to have residue to reduce evaporation from the surface but but then there can probably also be too much residue to manage and plant into so i don't know if there's like a happy medium that you think we could get to where you can have enough to to reduce evaporation but also especially in your area in the northeast i mean you guys don't have a huge window for planting the soils to warm up happy medium in terms of planting dates or all right just you know in the amount of biomass that you have you know you want some of it to stick around you don't want it to all decompose so like say you had a lot of i guess i guess in your area you wouldn't have a lot of radish in turn because of the club root issues um to canola um yeah if you have too much of that and it breaks down the residue on a saline field then you're still going to have that massive evaporation you know but if you have too much residue then all of a sudden you're you know farmers up in that area can't get in the field because there's just too much residue holding in moisture what we saw in 2017 actually a farmer was very worried about too much residue like evady mentioned and he had actually turnips and then chickling batch and forage oats and it was quite a bit of residue biomass and he clipped it and there was hardly anything in this spring um so i would say that after november first for example if you go by the 100 pp payments i would clip it i would clip it if you're worried about residue um for the next spring and as long as there is decent green in your mix i think you shouldn't have any problems because that uh field i'm talking about it was 500 acres close to 500 acres and it was more than two feet tall growth and it's northeast um more cooler you know i also want to address the other part of that question um so for on pages 112 and 113 of the weed guide we have rotation to crops after all the herbicides we apply and so indeed there you have 40 months to sugar beets after authority assists uh but that also covers you know the crops following the crops are listed on the label there's other things you know like so names have potentially sweet clover you're never going to find rotation interval to sweet clover on herbicide label and many other cover crops uh because the companies when they write the labels are worried about injury onto subsequent crops so kind of the back of language that you're starting to see appear on labels is to conduct a bioassay uh and situations like cover crops for instance to see how those plants would grow because sometimes it's residue related more often than not it is injury to crops and subsequent years and so if you still have time if you're thinking about a mid-july planting basically a bioassay means you go and you dig up some of the soil in the area you want to plant put it in a bucket plant whatever cover crops you're thinking about and in that bucket on that soil and water them and watch them for about a month and if they grow normally then in this case since the end use of the beets would not be for sugar production or extraction there's a small chance they could be okay but also you could put that sweet clover in there if it grows normally for these purposes then then that would be conducted the bioassay and you'd be more confident in the and that that plant would be okay in that situation so that's something you know if we're still thinking in mid-july planting there's time for that bioassays do take about a month to be confident that that's still an option on some of these if maybe and or but type of questions about planting a cover crop after a herbicide application from last year are there generally any cover crops Joe that you think are just more tolerant of of herbicide residual that that you know if you didn't do a bioassay you could feel pretty good that that it's going to do okay no it's zero zero rye is about the best as far as tolerance many of these sorghum sedans i'd feel pretty confident about for just as a painting of a broad spectrum brush on this of rye and the sorghum sedans the ones that get trickier once you get to Nebraska families so certainly those um the radishes turnips they tend to be more sensitive to more of the herbicides that we use and i guess so you know some of those herbicides are broken down biologically um then say a more biologically active soil may you know maybe those farmers i don't know and this is pretty this is totally generalizing and not something we but at least to give you ballpark idea but i've heard you know some farmers that have very active biologically active soils you know they're herbicide residuals if they're broken down biologically aren't aren't there for very long and they can get away with with cover crops that maybe in another system that isn't as biologically active can't can't get away with well the good rule of thumb is is your organic matter more organic matter the more um less likely friendry because of herbicide breakdown i don't think we have any true good data on you know no-till versus conventional till breakdown but we do a lot more information on organic matter so i'm going to build upon joe's point actually that's a very crucial point even when it comes to the breakdown of residue if we have high organic matter levels like ebi said uh soil microbes would be more active and the population would be high you could actually get away with producing more biomass just like they break down the you know herbicides quicker they will break down residue also quicker but then it will also mean that it would require more nitrogen to break down the residue um ebi coming back to i just thought about one point you said happy medium i would say that in the northeast uh the year the example i gave in 2017 when we had more than uh two feet of growth of cover crop that cover crop was planted in late july now i depend i would say that around fargo you will get more growth than us most years so if you're worried about too much biomass i would say plant your cover crops after 20th of july that would be and i there's no nothing set in a stone you know every year is kind of like different but then i would be slightly cautious i i wouldn't plant it a bit too early because the earlier you plant you're going to get more growth um and if you're worried about that actually you know if grazing or haying would have been an option i would go and plant the cover crop right now and i could get two crops out of it i could hay it or graze it and and then hay or graze the regrowth but if you're worried about the biomass until july 20th get everything ready and then plant it i supposed to you know that brings up good points too on on this if and i've known farmers that have done this too that if it feels like it's getting too dry and they're concerned about moisture next spring which seems hard to believe right now but but i've had farmers that have sprayed out you know terminated their cover crop um just to conserve moisture because they weren't sure that they were going to get the recharge that they needed for the following spring so that may be an option on some sandier soils if you feel like like they're pp this year and you want to use some moisture throughout the profile but you also don't want to rob yourself of moisture in the spring i mean that's the great thing about cover crops is you can always spray them out and terminate them um and maybe that's maybe that's a good a good thing to think about too and to not be afraid of of terminating a cover crop if you if you feel like there's too much biomass or that you're going to not have enough moisture which i know is hard to believe right now but as dry as it feels right now with all this heat and wind um who knows what it's going to be like um we have another let's see another question here on uh mention eight let's see kelly says we mentioned using two pounds of sorghum sudan in a mix would you say three pounds of pipe or sudan grass would be too much in a mix um you know that the two pounds comes from a lot of the work that marisol has done she's messed around with seeding rates on sorghum sudan and she's put six pounds in and she's put one pound in and you know and tested all these different rates and two pounds seems to be where she felt like like there's enough biomass but it didn't the sorghum didn't dominate the mix so i'm guessing the sudan grass would be very similar to that um you know i think if you want to use a bunch of moisture putting in three pounds is not a bad thing but if you're you're putting that in with with clovers and a bunch of other stuff right um i have to go back here yeah if you're putting that in with with peas and soybean and clovers your clovers probably won't show up that much in the mix if you have three pounds of sudan grass so i would maybe just keep it at two if you want those other species to to be part of the mix and not to be dominated by by sudan grass but that's just a gut feeling i too bad marisol is not here to really answer that um and then we also have oh boy these are a lot of words i don't know joe so i'll let you read that one in the chat box yes she's just asking if we could add 12 ounces of uh lv 6 so six pound 240 ester 10 days for planting without injury without injury is the interesting question so you know the the other thing i can point people to is page six on the weed control guide is planting crops after our burn down herbicides and you know 240 ester lay was all read about a month for um for that rate i believe it's a month for oats peas soybean for most of those things in that mix and again in that too if it's planted as a crop the companies have seen enough potential for injury across the number of site years that it's on there as a month for reason because that way they don't get a phone call to go to the field to uh um to walk on an injury complaint there's also kind of as in all biological systems a well maybe you're a no hard answer here if you have a lot of weed growth a lot of that too in the weeds that you're applying them to and in this case you know zero injury i don't know if i can't say that you won't see any injury um some of those may be injured more than others but also are now into the summer and so especially if it's kind of wetter soil warmer there's gonna be some more degradation plus the weeds there i'd say most of those will will probably come up um may have some stunting and so in that case you know if it's one of these mixes and if you stunt some of your peas clovers you know that your broadleafs then like abbey has kind of said your sedan may kind of dominate the mix then just because of them earlier start um so you know a lower rate would be less of a chance of injury um but of course your the main goal here is to control the weeds before planting so i think in general they'd probably be okay but i'd have to lean towards the side of caution that you probably see some injury and some early a chance of some early stunting on some of those particularly the broadleafs in that mix someone raised their hand i saw that pop on my screen while i was talking i see that chris there's an accident on hand and raise like he was sleeping in jerk jerk awake or something i did that the other day in a meeting and i was like how do you put that hand down i didn't know how to put it down so chris i don't know if you want to unmute and ask a question or something you're welcome to or um oh i was going to say joe too yeah sorry about that one no i was i was going down the road and i was just swapping over on my phone as i was driving here an accident he rose my hand i do apologize about that that's all right chris well your your hand's going to stay out oh no i can lower i lowered your hand for you so you're not volunteering anymore um oh the one thing i was gonna gonna say is that usually with with herbicides you know um we want you to have a strong herbicide program first and then pick the cover crops to fit that herbicide not the other way around so so kelly i would do what you're what you're planning to do for a herbicide and then if you need to drop or swap some things in the mix do that but make sure you have good weed control with your herbicide program one thing i would add for kelly that you know today for example is june 17th and if kelly vent and try to spray like not just have a window maybe a 20 25 days window then you know not only she could have the herbicide program but she could with say for example if she's able to spray this weekend it'll be what like 20 19th or 20th uh of june so if you wait for say 25 30 days more even you're looking at planting your cover crop mix say about july 20th i would say that that would be it's still very good date to plant the cover crop mix and you completed you know so there would be chances of the herbicide danger would be almost zero and and and so you could get the best of the both worlds actually i'm looking at there's a thumbs up emoji before un-meeting myself just to say i agree oh there is there we go getting crazy with the emojis joe it's kind of so i see julianne from limore county is on um on the call i don't want to put you on the spot julianne but how are things looking down there as far as i think you guys have a lot of unharvested corn that's going to be pp this year yesterday and we do have a lot of unharvested corn and i'd probably say though in terms of percentages it's probably 20 percent or less um i have seen a lot of those big weeds in the fields like you're talking about because we still have a lot of areas that i don't think farmers are going to be able to get into at all there's just so much water and i just noticed in the forecast we're going to have rain again over the weekend so yay um i don't know i really feel for these guys it's terrible out there i think they've lost a lot of acreage that they were kind of counting on from um the previous year which had already been underwater i mean it just kind of got worse so i wonder i mean it would be great to have a plan you know for those those corn acres that were harvested this spring um so we talked about the weed management on those you know if the weeds are too big you need to you need to till it unless you're in a no-till system and then you look at something like like burning the residue which may help with some of the weeds prior to to planting a cover crop um but i'm trying to think of you know we talked last i think it was last week we talked about options for cover crop on those corn acres that probably will be going to soybean next year and we kept things kind of simple on those acres i mean i think we had talked mostly about using oats or barley or some kind of cool season grass and then also maybe some millet in there to have some kind of warm season um if you are going to soybean i wanted to mention these that here are the host crops um for cover crops that are host to scn that you'd want to stay away from so like chickling vetch crimson clover field pea forage pea harry vetch turnip both pointer and purple top turnips and white lupin um so you want to make sure you steer clear of those if you if you have scn in your fields um so especially going to soybean if we probably want to make sure um that we stay away from some of those species but okay and then you had said on the website there was a chart that listed that is it on your soil health website or is it on marisols because it's on the soil health one and i couldn't find it yeah it's on the soil health one um so it's on if you go to the ndsu soil health homepage um then we have a link on there you can click to prevent a plant and cover crop information and then this one it seems like there gets to be more and more stuff on this all the time but there's a green button that says host and non-host cover crops of soybeans just nematode but that's thank you yeah it's it's after the videos and stuff um oh okay and then i think part of the thing too around here um corn is still on is they tried to every time they tried to get the corn off the field they just got buried yeah so i've i've been talking with erin day a lot about that with um with the ruts that are out there and how to manage those um and he's he's basically said we need to create a good seed bed um so you want to do some kind of some kind of vertical tillage some kind of shallow tillage you don't want to drag anything deep into the field because it's so wet underneath but if you do something shallow just to get a good seed bed whether it's for your cover crop now or to kind of prep it for next year he says to just that we're going to let the roots do the work on the compaction areas um and and and not using steel um now granted if you had combines that were buried out there and had to be dug out with an excavator and stuff like that i mean those those are just going to need to be repaired um but for the ruts in the field that maybe were left on fields that weren't too bad um some kind of vertical tillage would be would be good um that's what we we had to do that at the share farm in Morton this year we had we were in four or five years of no till but on the um untiled ground we had to run vertical tillage over it because there were some pretty bad ruts from harvest this spring um but yeah if you if you run any kind of um ripper and you know anything like that that's going to go deep into the soil right now with this what is it is under there it's just going to smear and it's going to compact and you'll see reduced yields for for several years um in those areas and erin was also saying a lot of these soils feel like pudding you know you they're dry at the surface but they're just so wet underneath and there's this interesting thing that's happening which um which all this this water underneath the surface of the soil is putting enough pressure on the surface that's the same weight of the soil actually so if you think about how heavy soil is um if you're always you know carrying around bags of soil like i am you know how heavy it is that there's enough pressure up from that water down below that's moving in and moving across the landscape as there's much pressure up as there is weight coming down from the soil and that's creating these almost jello like situations which is which is really crazy so subsurface drainage is going to be what's going to help manage those areas in the future anybody else have a question they want to ask or type or not i'd have to pull up an email but i did get an interesting one yesterday um and now you can hear my son is coming out to get something to eat so um i got a question yesterday about cutworms in fields where they had cereal rye and they planted soybean into it um so i want to share with you what jan canodle told us um this is actually from chris p at at agacy asked this question about it because one of his growers was seeing it sure way um let's see army worm and black cutworms are two common pest problems where planting soybeans into green cover crops and jan checked this out in minnesota indiana michigan delaware and alabama so many let's see many calls and concerns with army worm damage in that scenario some of the damage especially to hypocotals look much like cutworm feeding though we're trying to convince folks the army worm are slowly starving to death i suspect some spray to protect the remaining stand maybe necessary uh happens mostly when producers plant green either intentionally or because herbicides don't get didn't get sprayed or are slow to work in cool temperatures and this is out of somebody at Purdue um so that is one other thing to kind of watch out for if you're using cereal rye as a tool um and you're creating i mean it's essentially creating an environment right because it's it's a soil that's not being disturbed now and that that could create an environment for some of these army worms or cutworms um to to overwinter or survive so i just wanted to bring that up because i thought that was kind of interesting that was a new question that i've gotten um let's see kelly's asking in july is july 15th early uh july 15th planting too early for faba bean i would say for cover crop it shouldn't be um well it shouldn't be early guys we have faba beans here and as a we we have planted faba beans as a crop to harvest for you know uh great they've already been planted um i think it would be at least three weeks now i wouldn't say it would be a bit too early i think you guys have a lot better look up north too with faba bean um i've seen some fields like where faba beans been planted early like like right on that along the south to go to border um where it is just a stand for for grain for seed production um and it it didn't do very well that far south which seems like it's really not that far south but um but i wonder if up in that northeast you know the northern part of the state you guys probably have better luck because it's it's colder um that is true but it doesn't really like a lot of water so one year we had too much rain so faba bean didn't do well so but like if you think about what what was the planting date roughly have you been it didn't do well up there um you know down on the south to go to border it was probably i mean it was planted as a as a full season crop um did harvest so um yeah they just didn't get a very good stand of it so it would have been planted early but yeah i agree with you that you probably you know mid summer especially in the northern part of the state you'd be fine with it and probably even in the southern part i think you'd be okay i don't know i think i don't know i i think that as a cover crop july 15th like we are still like today is 17th we are we are looking you know one month down the road and i i think we should be okay i mean every year again every year's different and then like faba beans is a bit sensitive to saturated soils you know it's not super salt tolerant either so there are lots of other things which can play a role but as far as regular general planting date is concerned i think you should be okay i know that the one that we don't recommend planting early at least not you don't plant it till october is um the winter camelina cover crop that we've been working with if you plant that too early it just doesn't doesn't do well so you'd want to save that one as as you know plant your full season cover crop and then come in later and see something like like winter camelina and winter rye cereal rye but that's the only one we're finding really sensitive unless it's kind of under the canopy of corn if it's interceded and it just kind of hangs out there it doesn't get full growth that one's pretty sensitive okay we've got about 15 minutes left um does anyone have a question or field they want to bring up that they want to all these great minds to to think about you know i think at the end of the day when it comes to putting cover crops on pp just really think about the crop you want to put in next year so make sure that if you're going to go to wheat next year that you're not putting something like like cereal rye on that field um you know there are just some things that you just really you know if you want to stay flexible with what you can plant next year then go with oats you know you could kill out oats any volunteer oats in a with a wild oat herbicide or something like that in a in a wheat crop i think right joe there's certainly more options but the other thing is you can always terminate it before it goes to seed this year too yeah so just terminate before planting next year okay so yeah just be really aware of what you're going to plant next year um oats i think give you the most flexibility um i feel like oh it's as far as the residue that you're going to plant into i think is the most mellow um you know you obviously want to be aware of herbicide residual because you want to make sure that what you what you seed out there that you're not going to go in with a 30 dollar an acre mix and get you know 15 bucks an acre out of it you know where where you're just getting limited species to grow um so i just want everybody to be careful that um i have another question here opinion on clover rates beer scene five pounds or red five pounds or sweet clover four pounds um one clover species will be included in each mix is this too much or too little i think if you're you know if you're seeding clovers at five pounds an acre it's probably getting pretty expensive on seed costs um and i and i just wrote about it for the soil health minute this week and i can't remember what we put in there and let me look um and see what rates were you have the honest to own uh marisol has mentioned that sweet clover for example would be 12 pounds per acre so depends how much uh you know you want sweet clover in the mix um 20 to 30 percent should be good you know so roughly that would come about two and a half to three pounds you know yeah i'm i'm at my mix is i'm only using a pound of clover pound of clover okay and this i mean this is stuff we're seeding in between rows on 60 inch corn um but i'm only at a pound of of clover like two pounds of buckwheat two pounds of facility we're gonna include some of that um winter pea five pounds flax two pounds i can have a two pound or less rule i don't know i just feel like any most things if you're not sure what to seed two pounds usually will do it um for some of that stuff like flax or clovers or like vernal alfalfa or um raddish or turnip or things like that i usually just go two pounds or less um so so you might be a little heavy at five i don't know get cut it back to three probably and save yourself some money too yeah i think i've i've seen some mixes where where the rates on clovers were pretty high and it got really expensive pretty quick so um i don't know but you wanted to establish too i'm assuming she's talking about the same mix which had soybean peas and then sorghum sedan grass i think that's between two two and a half pounds would be good because that would be about 20% of the sweet clover in that she already got peas in that that's another legume so oh clovers yeah clovers will be planted by themselves in a mid-road between 10 inch rows of other cover mixed together yeah i'm really not sure i don't know if anyone but then they will they'll still be in the same field correct yeah i mean they're just going to be between 10 inch yeah so if you're planting them in the same mix what you're doing is you're basically planting clovers in between the other mix i would have still considered that part of the cover crop mix you know so if your clover seed rate is a bit too high i i don't know i i would have still be around three pounds not more than three pounds maybe yeah maybe just kind of split the difference between the five and the and the two at three give it a shot i mean you could always in that field when you know you could try two pounds in some strips you could try three pounds you could try you know if this is a practice you want to use in the future then you can learn something from it and figure out what rates you want to use by putting in strips like that i know it's a pain to probably recalibrate and whatever but but that may be the most useful useful way to figure out what you want to do abby you may want to mention to everyone and the the publication or booklet we are put in together which will have say weed perspective insect perspective you know i think that would be wonderful so you may want to mention it too yeah hopefully we can get it put together i've heard back from half the people that i asked to write for it so naeem you were the first to give me all the content we decided that after this after the call last week that it might just be good to have a booklet on prevented planting and cover crop options so um so we're starting to put that together i don't know if it'll be ready for this year we were going to try but um but we'll see at least it would be ready for the future but there'll be sections on you know on weed management and concerns herbicide residual disease transfer for broadleafs and grasses insect pressures and differences or change you know what you need to expect there i think we're going to frame right a section on rma guidelines things you need to know um one suggestion i have abby for that like the questions we are getting during these cafe talks when people are asking about um say a particular mix how about if we at the end we also create um some example mixes but by using those examples which we are getting from this group during these cafe talks and then write down pros and cons so like if you so say kelly the mix sheet um is asking about today we could use it as example and then you know seeding rates and this and that and then also pros and cons you know so we could actually have seven eight different type of example mixes which came as questions um from this group so that it's not just the you know the different aspects of planting cover crops on pre-bent plant but real life examples you know people so someone may like one example and go with that someone may like the other one yeah we could certainly do i think i left two pages for something like that and i mean we could also just include different scenarios throughout the book that will just help people you know i think the biggest thing on this is thinking through the process not necessarily getting you know specific numbers or you know but thinking through it and and how you're going to create these mixes that that really are suitable for your farm because everything is so customized um that i think that thought process is really helpful so people could see what we take you know we take an example mix and then we think through it and the end product you know um that maybe that would be helpful we'll have to see what we can what we can figure out for for creating something like that well we have just a couple minutes left so i want to make sure that we answered any questions that people have um before we sign off and i think we have one more next week on wednesday and then hopefully everybody will will have what they need to plant cover crops um we really do appreciate everybody taking the time to be on the call this morning and sharing your ideas and thoughts with us um and for really i mean my brain is really thinking this morning with some of these questions and after all these cafe talks they've been it really gets us thinking so thank you um any other questions so before we close out the meeting there's one i think so oh yeah uh collin mentioned piper sudan grass has thinner stalks than sorghum sudan would you say this would be easier to handle with a distril um because of thinner stalks is collin still in here no well sometimes tinners can be slightly tougher to cut um depends you know that would be a good question kelly i don't know if um marisol may be on the call next week and that may be if you if you check in next week if you have time um but as far as sorghum sudan i mean she's she's been all kinds of international conferences as a guest speaker because she knows so much about it so if you really you know want to ask some of those questions she's very very knowledgeable yeah hopefully she'll be i think she's gonna plan to be on next week since she couldn't make it this week all right well we will sign off for this week and then um yeah if you think it's something that you guys have questions on come back and check in next week and you can certainly write off the bat ask your question and then take off if you need to so um thanks for joining us though and good luck let us know if you have any other questions uh you can certainly email or or call um if you need it so thank you