 Yay, it's time to have more interactive conversations again. We can leave the stream on because now we are going to have one speaker at a time, and I'm going back to the panel here to turn on the lights again so we can see each other. Let's see if I can do this there. All right. So this is the part where we are going to talk about the discussions we had earlier and where your notes come in. If you have any questions for Daniel, Sean, or Kali about what they were just presenting, please write it in the Slack channel and then we can have that conversation there. This is now about the conversation we had earlier, those open questions that we had, and we'll do it in a way that you might know from lightning talks. So each group can designate one or two who get up and present their notes, and in three to five minutes, we have half an hour left for today and so we can have that as the presentation. Then while we're on the topic, we can also see if we want to talk about it. Maybe there are some back and forth that develops as well. Totally fine. So this is a space for us all here, and you can help shape it however you want. This is the proposal for how we're going to do this. So I'm going to ask if there's any volunteers that would like to share the outcomes from their discussions earlier, and this is for both sessions. This is from the one we had right after Sophia's talk, and then also the one after Emma's talk, Alyssa. Hi everyone. I think we had a brilliant breakout session. I just want to thank everybody that joined, and do you feel comfortable with me representing the, yeah? Okay. So we chose the journey Health for Sustainability and correct me if I'm wrong, but the general understanding was that in the broad strokes of things and in our lives and what people pay attention to, which isn't that much, it's the same. However, a lot of us were coming from perspectives of company stakeholders and that we recognize that health has more of a snapshot, doesn't have the longer view, and you can be healthy but not necessarily sustainable and adaptable in the long term, and you can be a really sustainable space, like live for a long time but not necessarily be healthy. So these things are not necessarily one leads to the other, they can be distinct in their own spaces, but that what we cared about mostly was around sustainability, that that was language that resonated with us as company stakeholders. That from the health was more of a concept that resonated more with and should be prioritized if you are a contributor, a maintainer like somebody that's a stakeholder that's actually in a community, which is sometimes not necessarily the aspo, but people within our organization as well. All that said, we were like, does money make a difference and we're like, it can make a difference but it doesn't solve things. It's just one thing and it's what's really important is to be in dialogue with these projects that we're paying attention to, these ecosystems that matter, and this led us to the real breakthrough. So sorry, curiosity hook, that wasn't exactly the tease, but this is the breakthrough. We realized that the metrics that we want to capture are the love languages of open source, like the five love languages are how much time we're spending with the project, gifts, so that could be money, it makes a difference. What are the other ones? The team? Spending quality time with your project. Words of affirmation and there's a fifth one that's acts of service. Yes, right. So these were the metrics that we realized matters to, these are metrics that we could pay attention to, to gauge our project sustainability and also our responsibility in sustaining projects. Is that a decent summary? Yeah. So this did also extend to the next session, but in a slightly how do we tease if we're talking about love languages? But that got more in the bedroom than I'm kidding. Any questions about the love languages of open source? Do you love, do you love, yeah, you like hearts, right? Like what is physical contact with the open, yeah. So I mean, I could also be like really being there like in a leadership position like in like the core part of a project, you know, like really showing up. So I don't know. I think thinking about our relationships with the projects was kind of like a kind of how we ended up. Thinking less about money or issues or people, but really about being in dialogue. Thank you, Alyssa. Also Kudos for going first. That's always breaking the ice. So anyone else who wants to share? But I don't think we took great notes. So I'm going to try and paraphrase from some of that. So the question that we were looking at is from the first present, from Sophia's presentation about what was maybe more important to aspects of things. And we definitely were leaning on the ecosystem side, that ecosystem is really the thing to look at for health. Individual project health is important, but knowing how it's interconnected with all of the other projects and initiatives and upstream and downstream projects, two-year project, really understanding all of that. But I think the interesting thing for me was like I come at it from a software vendors perspective. I'm Diane Mueller, ex-Red Hat now at Betergio. So I came at it from an OpenShift, Kubernetes, CNCF, looking at it from my perspective. But the two other folks in the group were from enterprises. And they were looking at it from what we had a little digression into the software dependencies. Like everybody looks at what software dependencies they have, but it was more of the use cases for the open science was one of them from the gentleman from NASA who's not here right now. So I'm going to paraphrase him. But the entire lifecycle of a project, not just who the software dependencies are, but the storage and the reproducibility of the results for publication and then being able to have access to all of that was very important too. But it gave a tweak on what I look at as ecosystem. I think in terms of enterprises, what your company is dependent on, which open source projects you want to contribute to, was the next thing that we got into was looking. Often when an enterprise asks what open source project they should contribute to or want to start up or boot up or whatever, they're looking at the latest sexy thing, like the hotness of the week, whether it's Istio or Knative or Service Mesh or something fun, but maybe not something integral like at CD. And so trying to help enterprises understand where their real dependencies lie on, not just the latest and greatest things and how to drive innovation and help. And that's where I think we started talking about the money problem, is that is it possible to do education for enterprises so that they can look at the entire ecosystem that they're dependent on and then flag those risks for something where maybe the maintainers or the contributors weren't there? So we were twisting around that idea, I think, a little bit and trying to focus on how you define ecosystem based on your use case or whether you're a technology initiative like the Chaos folks or a foundation like CNCF or Apache or Eclipse or whether you're a software vendor or if you're an enterprise, it's all in your perspective what is actually an ecosystem. And I think that was where we spent the bulk of our time trying to discuss what ecosystem meant to us. So that was what we got out of it. But yeah, the money is important, but finding the right places to play and place it down and place your bets. Thank you. Any direct response to ecosystems? What are ecosystems? How do we define them? Otherwise, you're hot to your hand up. Okay, so we talked about the sustainability versus health question. And there's a lot of the topics of our ideas about the difference between the two have already been covered. We've kind of tried to focus on the measurement question, which Gayark was kind of pushing towards the end there. So to recap, our summary was, you know, the sustainability of a project is really reflective of its longevity. It's a trajectory measure. It's either gonna be going up, it's gonna be going down or it's gonna be stable. And the health is a collection of characteristics that would contribute to that trajectory. Stop me if I'm wrong. Don't hit me though, but I'll. I just re-talked also just about like two of the major like stop points that can come with sustainability that can stop things in the track. And I remember it was licensing that a change in a license can completely just stop an entire project on the track. Or I remember the other one was, but there was another one. Yeah. So yeah, and to that point, there we were kind of hoarding around with like a literal health metaphor where, you know, certain aspects of health are much more drastic than others. So a licensing change would be akin to something like cancer. You know, if that goes, then your project is much more serious in shape than if you've got the equivalent of like, you know, a cold or chickenpox or something like that. So some metrics are going to be much more risk, risk inclusive than others as we go. We kind of sidetracked a little bit and we got, we started talking about funding and funding to us is just yet another resource. It's no different than human resources with maintainers and contributors. And we were, we were sort of, we got sidetracked a little bit and started talking about the human equation and away from finance. And Don came up with a really interesting idea that I think was the, the breakthrough that we had, which was talking about, excuse me, a lot of projects lately and a lot of organizations are very big about hiring younger, less experienced people to come in and contribute to whatever project they're talking about. And that leads to a gap in experience sometimes as older, more experienced people tend to move on to another company or they, you know, they're starting to retire or, you know, or whatever they're leaving and there's an experience gap. And so Don was thinking that maybe more companies and organizations should start doing programs where we're not just actively seeking, you know, younger people alone to pick up the ball, but also mid to senior level experienced people to come in the projects, whether or not they have open source experience or not to come in and also step into those roles. So you don't necessarily have a gap in maintainers, which to us is probably more problematic when you start losing maintainers. That's much more problematic than when you start losing contributors. You know, that's, that's a, again, that's the some help things are worse than others kind of thing. So yeah, and she'll make it better. I just want to add to that. I mean, something we talk about in the CNCF a lot is that, you know, we have programs around getting, you know, some of these people who are just leaving universities, you know, mentorship programs, internship programs, all these programs like bring these people into projects. And then we have other projects like Diane mentioned at CD, which is, you know, effectively a database. So, you know, we, we need people who are a little more experienced to contribute to some of those so that we can grow them into maintainers. And, you know, bringing in, bringing in young people fresh out of the university is fantastic, but we just don't have programs for kind of in between the, you know, the starter point and the maintainers. And so we need to figure out how do you bring some of those more experienced developers into some of these open source projects and what kind of programs can you put in place to do that? I don't know that anybody's solved it yet, but if you have, let me know. What she said. So, thank you. Thank you very much. All right, time to, for the next group, who else has some, yes, some things worth sharing. So one advantage of going later is that other people have already said most of what you were going to say, so. We chose not to focus on any one thing, but we ended up doing that anyway. So, sustainability and health, we had the same insights that Alyssa's group had. Started out very clear cut. It seems like you can't have sustainability without health. And we thought of some large projects that did for a while. So, health is a snapshot. Sustainability's a long-term picture. What else? Oh, we talked about three indicators of sustainability. It used to be that you couldn't figure out what sentiment analysis was, but now you can. And so, it should be possible, although I have no idea how, to actually see what the sentiment is about your project and figure out when it's going up or going down. So that's something that we can do now, in theory. Anything else? So, right, yes. So, that focuses on the qualitative instead of the quantitative. So, we've long been able to reach the quantitative, which is the low-hanging fruit. We can now, we think, get to the qualitative. Thank you, Jen. That was it. Thank you, Dave. Yes? Yeah, I'd also add, if you're doing sentiment analysis on anything related to open source software, there are some specific sentiment analysis libraries designed for software engineering. And it's important to use those because things like bug are interpreted, for example, as negative and ordinary human speech, but they're not really that negative to us. We all create bugs. Well, the rest of you do. I don't. Kidding. And here I thought you were gonna speak next, taking the microphone, passing it on. Take out the middleman, just pass it on, pass the microphone on. Here, Sarah. Sweet, thanks. Also, again, a lot of the things we talked about have already been covered, but I think we kind of focused on governance and kind of where that comes into project beginning. So there were a couple of us that came from academic kind of Python research backgrounds, and it's a big problem when you have students who are, or postdocs or professors who are doing the research don't really know anything about any, anything about open source or sustainability and trying to onboard folks who maybe don't even see the value of that yet, to having governance models and stuff for the actually helpful good research projects. And so, yeah, trying to find, there obviously are lots of good resources made by lots of people in this room to kind of help set those up for projects, but I think it can, we talked about how that can be also really intimidating for those folks, like you drop the book on them and you're like, all right, you need to do all of these things to be compliant and have a governance and so, yeah, it kind of takes some hand holding still to kind of go through that process, but yeah, I think that was the main thing that hasn't been covered. All right, Diane. I remembered the one thing I forgot to say. When we were talking about ecosystems, I know we've talked a lot about contributors and maintainers, but one of the things that came up was that we should maybe flip the switch and start talking about participants across the ecosystem. The end users, the upstream participants, downstream ones, partners, people who integrate our stuff into the thing, and look, take a broader picture about who is in the ecosystems. I think that was more important to us, I think at the moment than just, I know contributor health and maintainer health is really hugely important, but there are a lot of other people in these ecosystems that don't get counted towards being participants, and so maybe changing the language we use to be, use the word participant instead of contributors and maintainers and then define more roles around what those are, whether they're documentators or documentation people or translators and other things. I think that was an important insight that I almost forgot to say. Yeah, thank you. I'm just gonna add on that a little bit, actually. My name's Emily Lovell, I'm with an academic OSPO EC Santa Cruz, and I think that's such a great point and something that we are learning about at our office through participation in an NSF grant, so somebody put this in our notes, but there's NSF funding right now called Promoting Open Source Ecosystems or POS, and I don't know if all the resources are released yet, but I just wanted to say that there are people who are thinking really hard about this stuff and our group has been starting to have access to reading and in particular spreadsheet worksheets, I guess, and Google Docs that really probes people to think about this, like all of the people who are in your ecosystem, not just the maintainers, the contributors, but maybe also the research scientists, the funders, the advisors, the legal people, whatever, and the power dynamics between those groups and just really, we've been having really cool, thoughtful conversation around this, so yeah, if you Google it, I don't actually know what you'll find for NSF POS if all that stuff is online yet, but it's being run by the CESSC, it's like the Center for Science Engagement, I don't know the full acronym, but yeah, there's really smart people working on this and resources hopefully that will be available soon, if not now. Yeah, thank you, Emily. Sean was first, okay, and then you, Courtney. All right, Courtney, it's your turn already. Hey there, I'm Courtney Robertson, I'm at GoDaddy, but also a contributor to WordPress, and if anyone has researched the nuances of WordPress in the open source space, I think I might be the only WordPress contributor to have attended an open source summit, so there's a lot of weird dynamics that we have to find some more data about in the project, and I'm not sure that I came to any great conclusions yet, but I at least have ideas and inspiration for doing a very holistic look at some of the, whether the contributors are to core, our software, or to some of the translations, et cetera, but also I struggle sometimes to get the buy-in from my corporate company, my C-suite, that we need to not just do the marketing at funding events, but also staffing that goes into that contribution, and I've heard the same thing from other organizations, because in the WordPress community, we're a weird little bubble where we're all friends with each other at all the other companies and things, and so everybody's sort of struggling through this, and I'm looking at ways of coordinating an effort among the various extenders in the community, whether they be hosts, themes, plugins, et cetera, to, as one big group effort, let's get real about some of the health and data. We keep talking about we need to bring in fresh talent, fresh contributors, skew younger because most of our metrics are not that great in the contributor side for the younger generations, but I'm starting to get kind of a vision of what that could look like, big goals. Awesome, thank you, Courtney. I think we have a time, yes. So we have time for one or two more, oh, there. Let's see, maybe, I have a question for you since you gave the talk and put the questions up. How satisfied are you with the audience's response? I was just really excited how many directions it went. I think it's such a huge topic and I could only scratch the surface, but the idea was to provoke discussion and I think that happened and I was really excited to hear the ideas that came out of those discussions. So I am in agreement with everything and I heard and I'm very thankful for that. I did have a summary from the other discussion group that was after Emma's talk where we were talking about a number of things but started first with sort of this recognition of open source work at companies. I really liked Emma's example of how to sort of proactively demonstrate the work that is being done. Mostly we talked about how difficult that is to get sort of your extended community in your company to really care about what you do and the pressure that it puts on individuals to quantify their own value and contribution efforts where even at large companies where we understand the general value of open source and working on open source, each individual has to do it themselves in some way in order to be recognized in their own performance reviews and that has felt at many companies not just our own. So we talked about how that was a problem for everyone and how I guess a couple of us were in Ospo so understanding whether or not what we could do to help support the contributors in our own companies through this process and whether or not that was providing data we talked about if we could give them reports or like Emma had some examples of reports that they had generated. And then we also talked about sort of the transparency element of making things mandatory but that's sort of a side conversation and we talked mostly about recognition. Awesome, thank you so much. We have like two minutes. I'm also totally fine. I don't see anyone, any hands up right. Oh, there's one more hand. Okay, just want to make sure that anyone who has something to share can. Thank you. Hi everyone, I'm Chan. I'm from the Comcast open source program office. My background is actually in project management and data science. Oh, sorry. My background is in project management and data science and so in hearing all of you talk I'm trying to organize and analyze all of it in my brain and what I'm hearing is or what I've organized it in my head is that you kind of have people who are in this discovery phase maybe students or newcomers to open source. Then you have kind of projects, programs, portfolios and then an ecosystem and it varies across industries of what you define each of those as and then health and sustainability could maybe be another axis of like how do you get health or sustainability at some time point where short term or long term and then I was thinking of Danny's visual and how you could potentially then add risk to that and time maybe at some point. And so after potentially having that whole landscape of data then how do you then go on to tell that story? And that's how I've organized everything that you've all said in my head and that's where I'm kind of at right now but I don't know that was just kind of my comment of how I've thought of all of it. All right, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Really nice. And okay, we are at the end of this event. There are a couple more things. One, I would like a picture with all of us. So once I'm done here, we'll find a spot to take pictures. Second, there are poker chips at the front table. Please take one or two. These are unique. We print a new poker chip for every event. So these are collectibles. And I heard the idea earlier to at some point make a chain and like beads on a chain and you can show how often you've come to a chaos con event. So please take a poker chip. We also are having an informal social. Let's see here. There, we have an informal social gathering right after this. We are going over to the Fairmont Pacific Rim Bar which is basically just across the street, very close. You're all welcome to join us.