 Welcome everybody back here on Seagal Talk at the Marthney Seagal Theatres in the Great Center CUNY in Manhattan in Midtown and it's a nice fall day out here and still a lot of the things have not changed so the time of uncertainties numbers in this corona time are getting up and we are back to talk to theater artists around the world but also in the US and in New York about this time and what we're experiencing but we changed the focus now a little bit we're gonna talk about theater and whatever it is the political it's a little research laboratory to see what is changing what has already changed we're gonna have an in October a series about theater of the real with Carol Martin and many artists focusing on documentary theater there will be something on new dramaturgies and something on new ways of producing and of course the 2022 festival the New York international festival of the arts the Seagal Center is putting together with the idea to invite all New York producing organizations but also everybody who works in the parks and in parking lots to create something you to celebrate life again and significance of the arts theater and performance in order to really learn how to do best what is necessary what is useful and what is really needed we continue to talk to theater artists and there are many places in the world where what we are facing here in New York is Diane complex and it is in New York has done a great job I think containing it but lots of jobs especially for the artists and this is a town of artists if there's any in the US next to Los Angeles and it is it is a really really complicated but if we look at our friends and colleagues in the Lebanon in Beirut what they are going through on a daily basis because of the political situation because of the economic situation because of corona and then of course with that a disaster the explosion and that happened and it is it is devastating and and for us very hard I think even to really imagine so back to the seagal talks to give us a little bit of an insight is a Sahara staff and the Dima Mata both of them actually a week I think couple of days before the explosion we but we talked here on seagal talks and you gave us an updated situation I remember very well how concerned you were and that things aren't working that you cannot trust the people in power in charge at the same old warlords are in sitting him at the wheels and and that it is no real democratic movement inside yet you know that might put an end to corruption that might put in crowd forms and create forms that work that have meaning and that collaborate both of you are great workers in the field of culture in theater you have contributed so much to the life and I'm going to read for our audience just a little bit of Sahara staff is a theater maker and an assistant professor of theater at the American University in Beirut well so I mean it's a great place a great work what they do a little oasis and you know as many say Lebanon and especially also beirut is a special place also in the Arab world an open place traditionally over thousands of years but even now where we're still things how possible Sahara did a great Garcia lockers blood wedding as a site specific performances Shakespeare's King Lear and then a very significant and highly controversial play no demand no supply and documentary play about sex trafficking about refugee who are forced into prostitution in the middle of the city in front of the eyes of everybody and courageously she interviewed them and put it together into a theater and presented it and it changed in the building got closed as he's a member of Lincoln Center's directors lab that and Katanya the great and Katanya put together and many many other things are full bright alumni and and is deeply involved in theater in Beirut and then also back is a diva a writer actress and a university lecture lecturer she's also a full bride it's just shows how significant that organization is to also do what we do to keep channels of communication open to visit to expand our knowledge and experience different places where we are and she went to Rutgers did creative writing there and created something that became very well-known the Chewbacca festival a storytelling festival and cliff hangers huh cliff hangers cliff hangers and festival yeah and an outburst a festival so she's an organized organizer also community organized but also an artist and a curator and she is right now working on her a second play and I think her former play just opened weeks of the week before the pandemic fully so I apologize for talking so long as you both know this really is about listening and but I think it is important to give a bit of context just yesterday we had representatives from the Budapest school of film and theater actually the only great school in the entire country that's basically being shut down in the current model privatized people fired off asked to leave it they don't agree who's the new thing that the government is putting in it would be as if the republican party now would say we're going to take over Juilliard and we tell you how you should do your work three years in a row Oscar nominations for student films one one and now 150 year old tradition that even so I have the world wars is in in danger that just shows worldwide it's a complicated situation we need to hear from from hear these voices engage and support but our heart still it really reaches out to you what's going on in Beirut how is the situation maybe Dima maybe you start us off sure I mean I'm sure everybody or almost everybody is aware that on August 4th there was an explosion that took place in Beirut at the port and it is classified as the third biggest non-nuclear explosion in recent history in the world and over 200 people died over 6000 people got injured and more than 300,000 people lost their homes and basically ever since we are in a state of emergency relief work is is constant and it is initiated mostly by citizens by people like us the this devastation only highlighted not only the absence of the government but the fact that the government is actually only confirms what we knew before is that the government is slowly killing us right this is a complete and utter neglect on behalf of the government and so not only do they not help us but they actually harm us so ever since then a lot of initiatives a lot of collectives a lot of nonprofit organizations have been working non-stop to bring aid and relief to those in need it's just just incredible even the even to listen to you and that that doesn't give us an idea Sahar tell us a bit what Dima said exactly I'll add to that that the government is basically just you know it's not only the recent government it's whatever has been taking place in Lebanon for the last 30 years basically starting with the end of the civil war the same people as you as you mentioned Frank the same warlords came together and decided to cut the you know cake and distribute it however like they like and they started ruling the country with different governments different outfits every now and then they changed you know the prime minister so you know yeah it's it's devastating to say the least it's outrageous you know you would think that you know it's a corrupt government we knew that like there was nothing really surprising except the fact that not in our worst nightmares did we ever imagine that these people are capable of literally killing us destroying the city over our heads this is you know it I'm not exaggerating by saying that like I live almost 13 kilometers away from the port which is the location of the explosion and I almost felt that the house was you know stumbling on our heads everyone in Lebanon felt that people in Cyprus felt the explosion and we're talking about you know this is the port Beirut port is in the midst of the capital Beirut is the most crowded city in Lebanon everything is centralized basically in Beirut so you know people commute there every day you know it's six years people knew that there was there was a 2750 tons of ammonium nitrate sitting at the at the port for six years this is the route that I take every day to my work with my toddler I mean just the what-if scenarios that goes in your head are killing us you know every day and we're the lucky we're some of the lucky people who survived that day you know we weren't injured I'm very grateful I mean and I know Dima too like we didn't lose loved ones we didn't lose our homes but we lost the city many people lost their loved ones you know I think of the mother you know sitting and watching her her child three years old daughter playing in the midst of her living living room which is supposed to be the safest place on earth a mother a daughter in the living room and suddenly the daughter flew and died in front of the mother's eyes and and and like 200 stories like this one you just you just cannot you know function properly after something like this happened and what's worse is that these people that we're talking about what I'm calling the warlords everyone call the warlords not one apology not one official statement came not one arrest not one resignation you know the last prime minister was just a puppet like came out and resigned but not one you know official statement from the state explaining what happened you know they said in five days we're gonna issue a report you know whatever like they they were going to just tell us what was going on until today almost 40 plus days after the catastrophe nothing you know people you feel like people are we've been living like this people are dying in vain in this country you know but but this has been you know beyond anything I've witnessed in my 40 years living here so I you know I don't have enough words to describe the feelings really it's a range of deep sadness to to rage you know and and it's it deprives you of a very of the essence of our humanity like I feel now all I want is revenge and I I'm sorry to say this but I don't believe in accountability anymore I don't want them to be tried I it doesn't matter it won't change anything you know they need to be out completely out like they need to be out of this country out of this world I don't know but these people and you know they're coming together now like we're speaking and they're busy figuring out you know the next prime minister and how they're going to divide things in the country so zero you know care or responsibility towards the citizens so yeah yeah it's just it's it's heartbreaking I'm breaking to hear next to the ongoing economic crisis that you talked about you know that you said you know we have only hours of electricity you know I remember you had some battery lights on when we were there I don't know how you do it and now and so you're not even sure that you can get on the internet and the corona so what is happening on that side with people is the numbers going up is that so small compared to all the ongoing crisis that is no longer on people's minds or the thing that well the thing that happened is that for the first few months of the pandemic things were pretty much under control actually we're doing pretty great and and I do want to emphasize again at the risk of sounding like a broken record but to know thanks to the government I think actually it's because we don't trust our government that we took it upon ourselves to stay home and take the necessary precautions but the more things got got dire and and more complex and the and the economic collapse just kept on worsening this you know people took to the streets and then after August 4th I mean you want to you're you're out there in the streets cleaning you're saving people you're taking care of people and I think just so many things compounded so that the numbers kept on growing and so a few days ago I think we reached 1,000 cases a day and we're a population of six million and this was the the highest we've reached and and this is important to note because our healthcare system cannot support this especially around the time of the explosion people were being treated in parking lots pharmacies opened their doors to take care of minor injuries people had to triage you know they people we lost electricity and in hospitals in their entirety got destroyed and lost electricity which meant that people who are on live support lost their lives some of them lost their lives so we are talking here of things that are beyond catastrophic and and to have these you know the pandemic the economic collapse and the August 4th explosion this is more than anybody should ever handle and we've been hit by all three yeah yeah and I and I do want to echo what Sahar said that there's an immense feeling of sadness that is shared amongst us but also an intense feeling of rage that there's no time for conversation for dialogue for conflict transformation no this is it has made us fundamentally angry and outraged and and we don't want to listen anymore they need to as Sahar said they need to they need to get out something needs to happen something needs to change radically yeah I know we you guys you you talk so much of that that need to change with some hints you know also of hopefulness I'm sure now everybody is thinking should I stay should I go what do artists do what do artists think about what is especially since we are on the field of theater and performance what's what is happening you know many many many artists took to the street to the streets like Dima said and started doing relief work you know distributing food gathering donations to help the people cleaning you know they it's not you know that you're at the humanity aspect of your personality as an artist is what comes to surface at moments like this so all the people that we know like the people we're gonna talk probably about the relief group Frank but the everyone we know and who were who was able to go to the street and help this is what they were doing I mean the theaters were destroyed every single theater in Beirut was hit directly like some physically every theater in Beirut physically like the Zucca stood you a very nice new space in Argentina which is you know a few meters away from the port was destroyed they had to you know they were yeah they had to revamp every every single theater you know was hit either glass broken staff members injured you know so so obviously the time now is for relief work number one because to be able to do theater you need to make sure that the theater makers survive you know and this is a time really we're we're living but it feels like you're living by chance here you're in survival mode most of the time you cannot plan like I was you know I was personally I was kind of getting used to the pandemic situation started thinking about the future months ahead and re you know picked up some projects that I've been putting aside with my you know collaborators and then suddenly this happens that you know puts breaks to everything that you're doing it's it's impossible to even think about at least for me I speak for myself about a performance in the traditional sense you know so artists now are very much involved like all concerned citizens in relief work and in trying to help their communities yeah I mean just to to continue on what Sahar was saying it reminds me actually I was I was talking to Yara Bonassar who was on was you know with on a previous talk with with me and you Frank who said that in Lebanon we we normalize the abnormal right so we had a we have a pandemic we get used to it we find a way to to live right there's an economic collapse that is you know that changed our way of life drastically but then we adapt again and actually the day of the explosion I was because I lost my job because of the economic collapse and and the pandemic and so the day of the explosion I was in my apartment which is also not too far away from the port with a friend of mine and we both agreed that today is going to be the day we're going to work on our CVs and prepare some cover letters and apply to jobs and then you know we sat each one on her laptop and we're like okay we're going to do this we we you know we can make something happen and and then the the blast happened and if there's something that I keep that keeps coming up in conversations with friends and people around around me is that as soon as you think you have something they find a way to take it away from you as soon as you find a way to to make something normal you know to have some semblance of a quote unquote normal life they just take it away from you again and I think part of the reason why I am so outraged is because I think this government as I mentioned before and Sahab mentioned before they are killing us they're harming us but also fundamentally humiliating us I think we are so many things and one of them is humiliated as soon as we think we're you know we're humans and yes we can pursue art right which is such a privilege as we all know but also such a necessity so Sahad you know you're getting back into you know connecting with your collaborators and picking up projects that the pandemic put on hold and and then they rob us of that right so I think us as artists and specifically as theater makers you know because I speak for myself we're also wondering what the purpose what what is the purpose of what we do in moments like these and I think this is one of the questions that Sahad you thought about also when you kind of connected with people and and we formed the theater relief group so I don't know if you you want to talk about that also sure um yeah I mean just just because you know few days maybe two days after the explosion even like on the day like at night I started receiving messages from friends and collaborators that have worked international you know collaborators that have worked with about what's going on how can we help and I know many other people were receiving the same messages and it was you know I cannot even describe the the moment Frank in words honestly like that night and the next the few you know days afterwards is just you know it's beyond language for me but and I didn't know what to say honestly I was like what do you mean how how like as theater makers what do we need now we need to be alive number one but I thought maybe it's a chance because I knew that theaters were hit and I didn't know yet about the number of artists who were injured or who lost their homes so I reached out on WhatsApp basically to every single you know theater maker and artist technician you know director I know in this country whoever I have their mobile number Dima one of them like everyone and I just wrote a message and I said do you guys want to think out loud together I think more than 50 people were on that first message and then immediately you know people started responding positively and I remember Hanan Hajali a famous you know actor and director here a theater maker she said let's meet you know let's schedule a zoom meeting and it was honestly it was such a wonderful way to support one another because what we needed most in those days was to talk about what happened just to really try to understand how come we're still alive you know everyone's supposed to be dead but we're alive you know you find yourself alive but there's so much destruction around you that it feels like you're in it's an apocalyptic situation where you're not supposed to be alive so anyway we met on zoom that was like three days after the blast and we decided to call the initiative if you like the grassroots kind of movement theater relief group in Lebanon and the aim was simply to reach out to artists in the country anyone you know regardless of their nationality gender whatever you know kind of identity they have if they're in the country they've survived this they've been working here living here students you know theater students so the idea was to really try and find ways to support one another and to also support the theaters that were hit so that's how it started and then we you know we we we obviously needed to to raise some funds so we came up with this idea of Beirut no show tonight which for for many of us the feeling was there's no way we can the show cannot go on the city is destroyed the theaters are destroyed the artists are wounded like there's no way we can continue the show we have to stop and we have to mourn the losses and this mourning is going to take some time we know that so we decided that the fundraising event is going to be a performance that cannot happen and we started selling tickets like ghost tickets basically you know tickets for a performance that won't happen and people were free to pay whatever they want as much as they can and you know the the response was so heartwarming you know many many friends international friends people from outside many endorsements from people we don't even know you know shared the event on their websites on their theater groups it spread really fast and the first phase of that campaign which ended August 31 so one month almost one month after the launch we were able to raise around 12 000 dollars which is really symbolic honestly but it was you know it was needed to just say that we're we're here for you you know there's there's no one for the artists and I mean the last people you would think about even if the government was going to think of anyone they weren't going to think of the artists but they're not anyway so but usually we the artists especially the freelancers you know they take the hardest low in such circumstances so that first phase supported around 28 you know individuals and six venues now the problem is as many people know that the banking system in Lebanon is part of the corruption you know Saga so we're still trying to get our money basically from the banks but this is the intention now there's a second phase going on until end of September and Dima can talk a little bit maybe more about the the event and what's happening now yes I I do want to say that I joined I joined the group but almost as soon as it was was formed and it was so important for so many reasons but also after after the explosion we just you know we didn't understand why we were alive just like Sahad said but also we didn't know what to do you know now what do I do right I I was going down to the streets to help clean which felt like I don't know how to describe this there were hundreds of people like myself in the streets people from high school to to people in their 60s just they'd get their own shovels their own broomsticks their own garbage bags and their masks on everything and their gloves and they're they're cleaning the streets there's no sign of the government actually there are photos that are just carved into my memory of police officers and and soldiers either sitting down on their phones or one of them checking out a woman who is cleaning the rubble just just eyeing her and so it is so it's such a poignant and and and disgusting image of of really that symbolizes what our government is like so so we did that but back to back to the group it's that that's suddenly you know this group formed out of this necessity to to talk to have a community because we can't meet in person and so just to to form this online community and to know that we're working towards the the same target that we want to help each other and this is something we've always we've always done right we we've worked so much with that with barely any budget that we've always you know had other theater maker friends who'd come and pitch in and offer you know I'll do the lights for you or I'll I'll be your stage manager and so we've had that culture because you know we don't we don't have any government support for the arts and and and very few funding opportunities and so for this to kind of to to come together was was nothing short of magical but at the same time not surprising at all and and as Sahar said we the the first phase of the fundraiser already took place and we're we're in the second phase right now we're still accepting donations and if you visit our facebook or instagram page you'll see all the details on how to donate and also you know a full transparency on where the the funds are are going who they're helping and and what will happen basically to to the donations that people make and and as as as we said before it's it's a completely grassroots initiative with with no hierarchy it's just people kind of volunteering their skills even learning skills I I never thought I would be good at like creating social media content but you know this this made us you know explore what we can do and the ways in which we can help and the importance of of the fundraising event Beirut no show tonight is as Sahar said everything came to a stop on august 4th and and and I don't think we can make art in survival mode so as long as we are in survival mode what we can do is survive and if we can and we are capable then help others survive so we are thinking of individuals fellow artists we are thinking of theater venues these places have been our homes for years and years I've been going to the theater since to these theaters since I was eight years old and so they're my second home and and and seeing the devastation and knowing that for so many of us this is our only source of income and it has already been affected by the pandemic and the economic collapse we want to survive but we want and we want not but and we want theater to survive absolutely and also sorry to Frank if I may add one thing because I think it's important the the group now has more than 100 members and just to highlight the transparency aspect that Dima spoke about and it's very important for us it's an open group meaning anyone at any moment can join it's really a grassroots pure grassroots we don't accept money from government governments or governmental institutions we only accept donations from the citizen like individuals or you know people who are not affiliated with the governments and also the group now is functioning with three main subgroups like we have a communication committee we have an outreach and support committee and we have a fundraising committee and these committees are also open so anyone at any moment any artist in Lebanon would like to join and help offer their skills or you know help they're welcome to do that so that's even you know that's very honestly this group has been our healing kind of like it really supported it's supporting our healing process very much you know so I just wanted to to say that and to to thank all the artists that have been working it's impossible to say all the names but they know themselves and without each and every one of them this wouldn't have been possible and it's really you are all making history I just wanted to say that and also oh sorry go ahead Frank no please well I also wanted to say that a lot of Lebanese artists in the diaspora are also a big part of the theater relief group including several people in New York who are attending the meetings despite the time difference and who are going through their own kind of grieving and their own kind of pain you know they feel extremely lucky to be alive but also they feel a lot of pain for being away from the country and so a big thanks to them also for giving so much of their time and effort to be there for for the artists for each other yeah I don't know if there's a way for how around to implement or show the website or what you go if not you know maybe people can find through your names your facebook sites but I think we are working on something they have a close caption to say that I think it is important to show solidarity even as you say economically most probably will take billions of dollars but it is important to show compassion and to feel you know that the real pain what you have and if we could be you we could sit in your place I could have been in that apartment trying to write a job application you know and that explosion happens and the windows burst and we all distinguish often you know I break a lag it's terrible some of my family breaks a lag that's already bad a neighbor okay down the street you know well then another part of the city in another country but it shouldn't be it is this really is something we should take very serious and support and I hope there is a way that also the American theater community or the European ones you know to help you out so if you are listening please do everything does matter and perhaps also down the line you come and they give workshops we then they have find some money if you're a foundation or you know someone in the foundation I think this is an initiative it is created by artists run by artists it is worth of support it is of serious consequences it will go a long way whatever you do and so I remember as Sahai you I think you were with your father a bit away in the mountains when you said I'm recording him I was thinking about new plans for work it did happen in the time of corona this oversight who knows you know without the additional complication that maybe next to the complete loss of responsibility even less in that time and carelessness what are your thoughts now what if you said what should what is the role of a theater artist is there something that comes to your mind of significance where you said well I think when this is over who knows how long it takes but there is something I will make sure that will be different or I will fight for or is there something going through your heads a lot of things honestly Frank but there's one thing that I still I'm struggling with because you know I think I think for instance of the I've been very much interested in documentary theater recently it's a wonderful technique and you know genre that really allows you to connect with your community and to like talk about issues that matter to you and what's been mattering to me like since the revolution up until today are the stories of the people that we lost basically the stories of you know we had during that revolution we had many martyrs you know people lost their lives you know for the cause of the revolution and I call them what do you mean last December October 17 yeah the October 17 revolution you know people were killed by militia you know men basically by people affiliated with the government so on the streets like one guy was assassinated in front of his wife and son I think of him I think of all the people who lost their lives and I want to tell their stories but I'm conflicted honestly as as an artist because your job is to highlight stories and stories that speak to you but at the same time do am I entitled like I keep asking myself can I tell all these stories I mean I still obviously I need to ask the families and I need to to ask the people you know concern like related to the to the to the victims and the martyrs but this is something that's very tricky for me and there's there's an ethical dilemma that goes on in my mind so this is this is one of the things that's always on my mind these days and its stories about loss its stories about grief and about how I remember definitely it's related to you know living with my father most of the time these days due to corona corona and you know listening to his stories about his times and about so there's that there are I told you there are there were other projects that you know I've I've picked but then the blast happened actually last night my collaborator and I from London Rachel Valentine Smith who I met at the Lincoln Center Lincoln lab director's lab at Lincoln Center and we've worked together on several projects and we've been wanting to do multilingual Hamlet with with a female Arab Hamlet so that project has been going on for slowly you know for a while and of course I had to I couldn't like continue during the the last period but last night Rachel and I had the first zoom rehearsal kind of and it just you know what we're it felt in a way timely because we're highlighting the brief theme in Hamlet this is what we're interested in there's there's honestly it's just it's very sad and it's very dark but this is what the environment is you know feeding into me and my artistic calling in a way so there's there's so many things but nothing is clear it's like foggy all the time because you know as Dima said in times of survival you have to survive first and this I still feel every morning is still very hard you know to just think about what happened and you know every day you learn about a new story like 200 people who died then we still have nine people missing we have 300,000 people displaced like every day you learn a new story about these innocent victims so it's hard to cope you know we're trying to take it day by day you know there's obviously it will feed into the artistic work that I'm going to do for the next decade absolutely I say that how and what exactly I don't know yet um and because I don't know I don't know what what feels right nothing feels right in a way anymore you know no topic feels the right topic for today like there are many stories I want to tell but which story should I begin with I don't know maybe I'll know in a month but right now it's very honestly hard to figure out it's just I've never felt as paralyzed as an artist like as I feel today I've always had so many things I wanted to say and so many projects I wanted to do and I've always started with one project or the other now I do have many I still do have many stories I still have many ideas that I wanted to share and explore and research but I don't know where to start I don't know what what is right but that's only me and Tima um I mean I feel many similar and and I'm thinking of so many similar things that you are Sahad is that I do feel paralyzed I also feel that it's too soon to talk to make art about what happened we can we can talk about it and barely find the words and so so it's I think a lot of us feel that it's too soon to to even consider making art around what happened but and also what you said Sahad is you know who am I to tell these stories and and I've been feeling something very similar you know I I was not harmed I still have a home and this feeling of luck and privilege is is also you know can I should I do I want to am I allowed to even talk about this when I when I'm still in in one piece and so and this is something we will grapple with for for the next decade right this is just as the civil war you know we still make art about the civil war and I think we should always make art about the civil war um these are there's a there's an entire government that is stealing our history away from us and art is one of the few ways to document it and to document personal experience there is no there's no other way they rob us and we're creating it and we're documenting it and so it's a privilege but it's also a responsibility um but recently I've been working on on my second play and it's um it's about uh two women in in an abusive relationship and I started writing it because I've you know as as a queer person I've heard so many stories about people I know and people I don't know in Beirut and in the country who are queer and who have been in abusive relationships and um even uh you know um domestic violence or intimate partner violence is rarely talked about in this country um and um queer intimate partner violence is almost never talked about and so I felt um it was it was very important to write this piece and um some days I sit and write and it feels healing it feels like it's one of the few things that are keeping me sane and other days I think my script is worthless and um and you know it's been it's been two weeks I I haven't written a single word um it really depends and um you know the other day and I would like to mention this very um um there's a there's a wonderful dancer named Alexandre Polykevich uh he and uh and one or two people were arrested during the revolution in one of the protests and beaten up and uh held even for no reason and um just a a while ago they were summoned to appear in military courts right these are civilians and it should be illegal to be summoned to appear in military court and that's what's been happening so again as artists in the theater relief group and other artists around the country and even uh we're trying to gather as much as we can you know international press and and um and put pressure and and give visibility to to this issue um and that is to say you know that day I was I was sitting you know oh okay I I need to write a few new pages and I couldn't write a single word because we were trying to get in touch with anybody we knew to try to get more people to to shed light on what's happening and get more media attention to it and so um we are living the the expression living day by day has never been truer um that is that is what we are capable of um right now yeah it's uh it's um the situation we are in and you are so even so so much we really do not know what to do we do not know what's ahead of us so you're surprised by things that happen on the daily basis when we open the screens the papers or in your case here when you look it out of the window and you'll see something that then went around the world it's a shocking I can only imagine what it really means to the also to the subconscious of a country of you know and how deep um and this whenever we all hope of course that uh at least something will come out of it that something better that these people have not died in vain I see Sahar you have faces on a poster behind you is that a related to uh is it from a theater play yeah no this is actually uh well this is related it's from the Museum of Innocence I got it in Istanbul it is the Museum of Innocence and these are pictures of women that the basically newspapers used to publish pictures of women who were raped or who were violated but also pictures of women who gave themselves a way to to men before marriage so their fathers would push the the the boys or the men to marry them but if they didn't like like newspapers would publish the images of the women and cover we're still living in these shitty situations here you know it's a patriarchal society everywhere and this is just a tough moment I mean we talked with Thiago Rodriguez a great director from Portugal and he told the story of um the great Russian poet Ahmetova who was under house arrest who wrote her great poems long poems during the siege of Leningrad where you know so many people died of starvation and her son got arrested and had to go to prison and she went to visit him every day when she couldn't there were long long lines they made extremely complicated and the story is that one someone in the line saw her and said and you Ahmetova the poet and she said yes and she said I'll let you in front but you have to write a poem about it you know about this moment and she did and um and in a way perhaps you know this is as as as Dima said is the history the alternative history it's the capturing of that moment and also what Sahar what you said the degree to could be good he of it the moment where you say you were in a dilemma that itself you know is of significance and that theater shows that there are no and so there's nothing is black and white and white and the complexity of real life that's actually not lying to us but it's so so easy to say from here so and we will try really to to encourage everyone I myself included you know and to to find a way to um show solidarity with you as colleagues and in friends and also as a part of the social and cultural artistic fabric of that important country um how do you feel the outside world um is connected to you or do you feel it's isolated it is something you have to go through alone and I know you mentioned your your friends out there but um what would be of the biggest what would be the greatest help you can get um mobilize against the Lebanese government you know boycott the government boycott the warlords um take them to criminal courts you know this is it I honestly I've been listening to to what Dima's saying and just in like in this moment with you Frank and Dima here it feels like very dark and I don't want to sound personally that we're just sitting here nagging about a situation but the the feeling of helplessness is really paralyzing because we like the revolution for instance the the the broke in October on October 17 that was a breath of fresh air that was the first time in our lives we feel yes some concrete positive positive change might happen because it really expanded to to to the entire country usually even protests used to happen in in the city in the main city but with that revolution it's everywhere but honestly to answer your question we feel very supported from fellow humans you know fellow citizens of the world artists around the world and this has been really uh very important for our healing process but at the same time we do feel helpless when we you know with with the current political climate and the right-wing kind of governments that are ruling the world right now you know I mean when you see like the the president of France coming and negotiating with the same people who did the crime it just unbearable honestly and this is something I don't know what what we as citizens unarmed can do you know you can talk so much about it but why we've been talking about this Dima said Dima mentioned this like they're erasing the history this is what they've been trying to do for the last 30 years you're not allowed to do a play about the civil war there's no one monument in the country to honor the lost lives there's 17 000 disappeared they could care less about about their families and about their whereabouts there is no history book in Lebanon like we don't teach the history of the country post the french mandate you know it's just ridiculous you know what these people have been doing and it doesn't seem a problem for um for the big administrations around you know so it in that sense yeah you feel alone you feel stuck in a way like what can you do really we're tiny humans living in our bubbles creating art because we think it's necessary we think it's a right and then one day you die in a in a blast you know like it's so absurd it's really I mean what about I really don't know what to say to that question but I think we've been we've been receiving extraordinary support from from a lot of artists around the world and that has been really really important for us yeah I can only imagine what it means these extreme situations of you know the difficult politically economic situation then a revolution where for months right people were on the street every day I remember speaking to Sahar he said I'm on the demonstration of my with my daughter and that's there were a million people if I'm right and then it the same government your protest again shuts down because of corona then that same government you know is responsible for the one of the greatest explosions not in more time in in mankind of the history of mankind so I do not I also don't know what to say except that you know that to acknowledge that this exists and that it is wrong and and that you know we we care and feel for you and that yeah that we need to find a way also to teach and to transfer that kind of an experience which is so hard in the world how do you transfer experience not just knowledge but also human experience and as you said about civil war about your father all that and that art will come in but in the moment you know as you say this is about survival and I think we here in the US this all the western world a lot of complaints and that level is on a very different height you know than than than yours and and but how is food situation and the port I think was closed and then it's open partially I think but it's our things coming and I heard that there's not even a factory that produces glass in Lebanon so everything has to be imported it's been so so destroyed the industry and initiatives and the corruption is so high I mean this is just not working so how how is the situation how do you guys get your food I remember last time I know you have to could pay a dollar or Lebanese money but the banks refuse to give the dollars of the own money out you couldn't get it or just a very small amount so what's what is happening on a daily life well everything everything is more than quadrupled the price is more than quadrupled and so everything that we took for granted anything that would you know something that costs ten dollars would would have been fifteen thousand Lebanese pounds which was quite an affordable thing and now you have to take into consideration that something that costs ten dollars cost seventy five thousand butter fruits and things yeah yeah absolutely and so this is catastrophic when it comes to anything that is needed to fix homes because we import so much metals glass even the tiniest screw is that used to be what a dollar which was 1.5 is now eight right the things we we we we used to buy without thinking you know to hang a new a new artwork everything is ridiculously more expensive and this is just you know to hang an artwork so how do you go about rebuilding your home that has been devastated with when the prices are this way and so yeah that's that's what I can that's what I can say about what's happening I know that also the port in the north we have there's another port in Tripoli that that started functioning more than usual to kind of take some of the burden after the losses in the Beirut port but I also if I may go on a on a on a small tangent from this is we're talking about ways the international community can support and we're fortunate enough to to to work you know as the theater relief group and I know that some people can't donate money but they can do so much more or different things like keep the conversation going right the media is is loves to cover things as soon as they happen and slowly we disappear off the face of this planet but we're still in the same mess mess is doesn't even begin to describe it right so keep talking about us keep mentioning what's happening keep mentioning the initiatives share I mean we have we have the theater we're part of the theater relief group but there are so many other grassroots initiatives and so you know you can you can look them up we're all we all have Facebook and Instagram present presence so you know share these with your connections with the with the artistic institutions that you know with with anybody in your in your communities also if you know people from Lebanon hire them you know if they encourage their artwork encourage their writing and and and yeah just keep sharing so that way that so what happened keeps getting talked about so that we are not so that this is not forgotten because we need to keep the momentum going we have a long way to go and don't accept that your tax money goes to the Lebanese government or anyone affiliated with the Lebanese yeah do not donate to the government that's an important important message actually yeah let's not go where it's supposed to go and it also supports the wrong people and the wrong message because it won't get to the people you know it's going to go into their pockets again and again perhaps also it means you know for organization that hosts and we are part of the on the move that org that great organization that for postures international exchange and others you know so also to host artists from Lebanon perhaps you know give them a moment of of of peace at least for that you know they suffer the most i think they're the most vulnerable and as artists here in new york you know so you cannot musicians for example in new york city they cannot even perform in bars because if you sell alcohol and you have a performance the police will will stop it you know for good reasons it's also you know corona related but it's devastating for all the independent musicians they're completely out of jobs and completely out of work and so many of them used to work in the restaurants that are all closed so artists really the most generous souls people dedicate their lives for the real the beauty and what's true um you know are on the front line here and it's also going to be very complicated so i can only imagine how it is in a catastrophic situation so you have all reasons you know you don't say nagging how complicated but you have all reasons to be outraged and as you said the international court in Lahaye it should be you know prosecuted as a crime against the humanity this is beyond any negligence you know it is and who knows what else is out there you guys don't know about at the moment so um and the russian owners of the ship you know don't take responsibilities and they just changed flags and and who knows you know who talks things out there anyway in between or it was resolved it's just it's a hard what do you do when you go to sleep tonight what do you read or if you if you do it all but for the music what do you listen to when it comes to art is there something that sustains you what do you turn to in that such a situation both of you as individuals um for some reason i've been waking up to the music of two arab artists recently like on repeat uh raffae who's a um rapper and a singer like songwriter for a palestinian jordanian and very political interesting lyrics like i've been listening to his song fitna do you know it dima like on repeat i love it and um the lines is it to translate a few yeah let me think um so there's this song that he sings i think like i'm i'm singing it to beirut but i think he's he's singing it to his city i don't know what he but the song goes like which means you you've changed you know you you've buried me under your streets and um my my voice is echoed in in its sewerage um you know i'm trying to remember the lyrics in your absence we have no neighbors we are the new stories we're the new presence it's it's a beautiful song very beautiful song and i'm singing it every day to beirut it's um it's sad like we've we've been saying goodbye to beirut the beirut that we knew um you know for the last uh sorry yeah yeah it's sad you know and we also know that you know the great artists who left as imon fatal and it's a lot none you know the house also with all the artworks the gallery it was destroyed she she she wrote this great poem the arab apocalypse you know about the sun and then almost you know if it's that explosion it's it's a devastating loss dema what do you what do you uh how do you what do you look to or do you even can you even connect the words of art are they significance in this moment yeah actually um and i think this applies to a lot of people art brings us comfort right and solace uh in these much needed times i have been listening to um um a band an arab band called nerdy stan uh and uh they have a they have a song based on nizad kabani's poetry called maliha which literally translates means salted and it's just talking about how um uh the arab world um he says um that our poems have and our words and our mouths have become salted in the sense that they've become bitter and arid um and um and and our seats and our curtains and when i listen to it i imagine the seats and curtains of theater venues and um and that this is this is what's been happening to us so i've been uh i've been listening to their music they have another song called tafah al kail which means we've had enough and he screams it on a on a megaphone and it also reminds me of the days of the revolution and that also brings me comfort and i've been reading maggie nelson's the art of cruelty um about the representation of cruelty in in art and media and um going from uh you know achto and the theater of cruelty to uh you know the um anyway uh onwards and the and and thinking about the kind of art that we will make in years to come and will we feel the need to replicate the cruelty and to show it and does that perpetuate cruelty and and kind of all these these questions that uh that come to mind as a as an artist in this region um yeah well thank you really thank you both for sharing i know um how hard it is i know how complicated it also must be to get a call from someone in america or in the west and now they want to know what's going on and then you think they will forget about us anyway i remember how around and us we thought we talked earlier but you guys said listen frank we yeah we're cleaning up the apartment as i speak you know i don't know what you're talking about you know um thank you frank really this is but still you know so um and so we got a sliver of your reality how you experience it and also yes it is a moment of a time of corona a moment in the time of a life of an artist of serious artists artists who create work under the most difficult circumstances and i would like to remind everybody um on that that is an art made out of love and out of conviction and it's not you know because you professionally hired and now you got the job and now you do it so this is a very different ballgame those folks are playing here and we have to support them i think it's the very best of mankind what we see it stands for the very very best what we have to achieve the four people are you know crazy about sports but i think what you guys do this is what represents a human spirit and um and i hope you know that this time uh will pass and that's out of the suffering something good will come out the great port held early in the german monoset if there is big danger that what will save us is also growing but slowly and like plans maybe it will take time and um and things do change over time nothing lasts forever not the good not the bad but really thank you for sharing um it's such a hard moment and for all of you but everybody here i think also the howl-round community and i hope i can speak in their name not only the organization but also the listeners the artists people from universities and students all around the world are so listening that we think of you and um and please to everybody do support them or reach out comments or money but also perhaps you know do do some of the artwork invite people from that from that great country that has been a beacon of liberty at least also in the world so let's support them thank you both and we will add the link to our side the seagull center side i hope also howl-round can do it but if not people can find you on facebook and connect to that so maybe make it sure it's a highly permanently a display thank you both um for joining and i'm glad the electricity state that we could do everybody we know and we our heart really reaches out to you thank you and really really stay safe you have a responsibility also for yourself and be kind and general to yourself but you know keep on doing what what you do also well and to our listeners thank you for taking the time to listen and to be with us i know there's a lot of content out there just a lot on howl-round there are so many parallel things but this is important what our fellow humans fellow artists are going through and we need to share that and we need to have compassion and i think this is also what theater people really do and have and why they are different why they're good people so thanks to howl-round vj and sia for hosting us and travis this indy from the seagull team and everybody to listen but especially to the viewer if there are messages our significance is for you so that you think about also your work your practices and your realities and how fast so it can change and that we have to do everything to create a better world and to leave a better world behind so thank you and i hope to hear you see you back next week we have gidion lester who will talk about the barred college and his work with international collaborators we will have baraka selas the opening she has been for decades a worker in the field of arts consultant and curator and thinker and now with the black lives matter movement i'm sure a lot of poor thoughts are highlighted and then we will talk about our prelude festival that's been held for the 15th or 16th time the only festival in new york city that is dedicated to new york city artists and companies and we show work in progress as always discussion and of course we were thinking should we cancel it or not but we are going to do it online for the two curators miranda and david will talk to us what it means to do theater in the time of corona what artists are doing we commissioned artists so that might be also of interest to you it's starting october 22nd thursday wednesday thursday friday and then the next week also again but tomorrow they will give us our first insight and it will be of interest also to me so we know even better was our pre recruiters curators are doing but again sahar and demer thank you and i really hope to see you all soon i'll come and visit whenever it's possible really and i hope