 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday and strangely the middle of the day and we're doing a show Then it must be Warhammer and weekly and all of that fun stuff. Yeah, it's like early. We're doing it anyways This would be a short show. It's gonna be like an hour. This is Gen Con week. I'm literally about to go to that So, you know, hey easy for all the for all of our European friends and play people in other places around the world where this Time is more convenient glad for that. It's not like two or three in the morning for them Joining me as always, it's my co-host Tyler. What's up, buddy? Good to be here. This is really gonna hurt my average So under under protest this hour show Yes, Tyler stepped up like a hero as always because he's the man and You know, that's Tom is is unreliable when I need to do the show with randomly in the middle of the day Well, we got a short rumor or yeah news and rumors. That's it. That's what we're doing That is what we're gonna be talking about. What makes a good game of age of Sigmar today, but first of course Little rumor engine. We've got a hand. Yeah, the gene still occults. Maybe what is that looks something 40k? That was that was my guess could be could be a blood bowl guy. Maybe at the same level guy Yeah, kind of gripping in that grippy grip position, but sure. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's that's a good guess. Yeah, but bull. Yeah Dead hands sure I saw some people say it looks like a larger scale Because of the level of detail, but I'm not sure if I agree with that or not I don't think it's that much bigger, but I would assume it's a blood bowl blocking handy guy Like it looks like a defensive dude So yeah, I assume it's blood bowl Excellent and We've got a new serif on Vanguard box coming out, which looks pretty good Yeah, I think it looks pretty good. We've got a karnosaur 10 source warriors and three crocs So yeah, yeah, no, it's fine. I mean the the kreger are not a bad unit base It's just there at the wrong points value right now So over time assumingly that will correct, right? Like this is a especially if you're interested in the coalesced side of the house I think this is quite an excellent, you know sort of starting thing Also, I would assume That whenever we go into fourth edition We're we're going to get the same thing with these boxes that that 40k has with combat patrol where they're all meant to just be oh, yeah playing against each other, right? Right, so I you know like this redesign of this thing is Generally pretty good because then this is your this is your combat patrol starting force, right? So that's fine Okay, absolutely. Yeah, I Played against serif on and OBR yesterday serif on coalesced and yeah, one of those is not like the other like the gap between the fairness And the enjoyment of playing against those two. Yeah, I mean coalesced. Maybe they could use a Keep going on the point drops. Like oh, it was it was rough with a serif on player Yeah, he had about like sorts warriors and agridons and no crocs, but yeah, it's just oh, they they don't hold up very well I mean it's even with the minus one damage thing, which I still don't think should exist in the game Like I just don't think it should go away Okay, I think they should just have good rules and the points drops to make it to bring them in line Like it's just right now the coalesce side of that book is in is just in such a state I mean, it's it's thrown in stark relief when you compare to OBR Um, I'll I'll talk about that a little more in hobby time. So yeah I think that's all we've got for news and rumors Cool. Hey easy peasy Let's talk about some pick of the week Tyler yeah share with everybody. I I just wanted to give a shout out to Andy at gray matter gaming I've been trying out some of his products Dave and an Anthony Pocastro over there at Nash con They've been putting photos up. They've got quite a few mats from him with their new terrain. It's looking fantastic He's got an expansion going on with new game mats Uh, he sent me some of the objective rings, which I love because they don't have anything on them I love they're just clear And they're fantastic. So he's got the 12 inch and the six inch versions And I mean a lot of people do objective rings that are awesome Obviously raps kicked us off with the objective ring thing with and he he has an amazing product and as well as others And but yeah, just want to give a shout out to him. He's expanding his range. He's got all kinds of things Bases magnetic tray bases The objective rings game mats all different sizes different systems star wars, whatever whatever So yeah, he is a fantastic guy It's great to have somebody like him in the us finally like Especially we didn't have anybody that I knew of just doing the objective rings in the country For example, and just yeah, so he does great work over there. I want to give him a shout out. Nice Uh on topic for today or on theme since we're going to be talking about what makes a good game of aos like that's that's I'm going to share some stories here. Uh, this is going to be story time. Basically Tyler and vince wax poetic for some amount of time about what they enjoy in games uh the Hey, whoa did a nice recap of midwest meltdown Obviously a great tournament run by the one and only domus who was a singularly wonderful individual in our community and uh, he Uh, just kind of recaps his five games and goes through it. He had a had a good time playing his his, uh His bcr and it's a very funny story too because he didn't bring he doesn't have his terrain piece So he doesn't use that He didn't have an extra one of the things about midwest meltdown That's well known as you get to bring a warband, uh, like a little Underworlds warband from anything in your alliance not just from your army So you can bring any any underworlds warband that's in your your grand alliance And he didn't have one of those painted because he wasn't planning on going to the tournament originally and his list was 1940 So he was down like just hundreds of points And uh, you know, he still got it going. He still had a had a good time and and gave gave a good show for sure. Um I'm sorry. It's it's really a great example of why the player matters a lot more like I've said many times that good players You know a good player Against an average player that good player could probably take 1600 points and beat the 2000 point army nine out of ten times Like probably something that extreme like that. That's why when that's why when we move points around like Ten points or something like that or 20 points, you know And and and then it's like well the same people are still on top But it does make a difference for the average on average sort of the the middle of most of us who play the game so Yep Okay, uh, so check it out. It's a link to all of that is linked down below Okay, uh Cool, let's I just realized I wasn't doing any kind of timestamps. How how nice I mean Such a failure of a host Okay, cool Uh, well, let's uh, let's talk about some hobby time Tyler, are you back to painting yet, buddy? Have we seen anything on the table? Another week Yeah, I know no work is insane and just yeah, I haven't had any time The or I haven't haven't been making the time I could have made the time and I haven't yet So I keep shaming me Keep it keep it up and and I will I will get some paint on a model at some point I've been getting a lot of games in trying to figure out stormcasts for yeah for gateway open Coming up because of the whole Nashcon gateway open thing rotating as we've discussed many times and I think it's going to be stormkeep which we barely talked about I've been having such an issue dude on primary scoring in some of my games Right playing the kind of list that I like dancing around Lots msu Looking pretty and no if you can't score primary that doesn't work very well. Yeah, so stormkeep. Yeah Stormkeep has been helping with that issue Ah, it's fascinating I mean, it's a good point if you're going to do the dancy attrition list It does feel like the the almost required build, right? So yeah Yeah, checks out So yeah, anyway, but uh OBR is Pretty pretty silly right now. It turns out. Well, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Yeah, we'll get there Uh My hobby time Uh, so I'm still working on my my towel. Here's one of my little stealth suit boys Uh, he's he's almost done. I got to do some medals on him But other than that he's He's ready to go and be stealthy. I don't know how stealthy a tron neon suit guy can be it kind of stands out Um, but so working on though that unit right now Um, so they're a lot of fun. I've always liked these little goofballs. I don't know why I just think they look really cool They're weird little egg heads um Like the stealth suit dudes are just super cool and the Funny thing about these guys is I opened this kit Back when I like, you know out of this because it came out of like the Uh, combat patrol I think it hasn't been there. I think that's the one. Anyways, I opened it up And I was like, well, I'm gonna put these guys together first I like these dudes a lot And so I put this little guy and I I pull up the sprue and it's just one little sprue Okay and Uh These are like no pieces. They're so easy to put together. Okay Nice It's like a traditional like six part model, you know, just like torso legs arms Little head pieces like and I was like, what is going on here? And then I realized. Oh, these are really old So Elth suits, that's what they're called. Yeah, like x25s or something like that Okay, no, okay But I realized the reason they're they're so easy to put together Uh, was because yeah, they just they're they're such an old kit. The sprue is still cut really logically I don't know. I mean, it's just like here's an arm stick on the arm. Here's another arm Stick on the arm, you know, just like here's a leg stick on the leg, right? Uh, as opposed to like here's one quarter of a leg and two-thirds of a torso that you've got to melt together with another Uh, with another one quarter of a torso and then there's uh two Six there you're two seventh of a torso. There we go with part of a neck and it's just like, what am I building here? So, um, but these guys are really fun to paint like this the the towel project in general is just a really nice Side project to have in between other more serious things because it's not like hard It's just it's a very I per intentionally kept it very simple very sort of Formulac where it's just me doing the little things and making the little lines and and yay fun times, right? It is a fun chance to just like really really religiously practice edge highlighting Which is something that's always good to just get your your muscle memory down on so Yeah So there we go, uh, that's been my my hobby time I also finished up another thing that I can't talk about but most of it was just working on the towel after those were done Uh, all right with that. Let's pivot into What makes a good game of a OS? Okay, and I got a game in this last weekend You had asked about Brendan the lord of death coming over and we finally got him over this last weekend Uh, so it's good. He's he's here in in where in town where I live now And I got a couple other guys from my group over we did a nice team game And you know when I when I invited Brendan over, you know, we were texting back and forth Yeah, and he said, all right. What's the What's the general vibe? Right Like he was asking a good session zero sort of turn, you know zero question turn zero question, right? He didn't want to show up with like You know just hardcore face beating if that's not the the vibe, right? He's obviously a very competitive player very good player, right? and The And so I said, well, it's a pretty casual group, you know, it's it's we're pretty Pretty chill pretty relaxed. We don't bring a lot of hard edge lists I was like, you know, you need 1500 points because we play a team's game with 1500 points per person So it's basically 3000 points aside, right? And he's like you guys do 16 by 44 60 by 44. Do you do a bigger map? Okay, interesting It works fine. Yeah, no issue. You can yeah teams games on that side. It's fine You don't need a bigger table for like 3000 points I'm sure I just you went bigger than that you would but but now we've never had an issue Um, even in the smaller deployments, we've always been able to To generally fit everything in without without issue because you know, it's always somebody has like stuff in reserve and you know Yeah, whatever Uh, it was funny too because we did the battle plan that where you can pull d3 units off the board Yeah, spring the trap. Yeah spring the trap. There you go. Thank you. I couldn't I can never remember the names of them I just remember the function of them Like this is the battle plan where you do this Right. So Okay so, um He's like, well, all I've got Out of storage because obviously he's still in transition in the movement, right? He just got here He's he's they're still getting their their house arranged and all of that, you know So like he's he's got most of his stuff still packed up And he's like all I've got out is my OBR And I was like, oh boy I he's like he's like it's cool. I can I can find like a softer list, you know or something like that I was like, okay, that's fine. You know what all good Yeah So he played um The punchback guys, what's the the the I cannot remember all the OVR OBR sub factions. So not the main dudes More to the ones that counter charge It's no no no no the ones that want to get hit first to get a bonus when they get hit Oh, yeah, it's like the least popular sub faction Yeah, I can't remember the name somebody in the comments might know the name, but yeah, that's fine. I apologize OBR stuff is not I cannot remember OBR sub factions. Nothing about that army will stick in my brain. It just won't it just It slides off like water off a duck's back. But anyways Uh, no, not crematorians not the not the not the burn and explode the I want to be hit because then I get a bonus to fight later in combat Here instead of relying on ivory host. There you go. Thank you. Thank you everyone ivory host That was it cool And thank you chat by the way hit like And I'll do all that stuff because we're doing a really early show and people might not know and the more of you They hit like the easier it'll be for everybody to find the show. So hit that like button um It was only like it was only like 22 likes. Come on guys. We can do better than that. Jeez. Just repeats uh hit like for having fun with with uh with aos and So he was running like a big block of more tech and some ponies And the little scythe cool dude like the little scythe guy Uh, well, no the oh wait. Oh the hero the hero with the cool scythe effect. Yeah, and then he had another one of the heroes and uh He had two more guests our rukai or whatever. Yeah, two of those and uh arc on Okay, okay, okay, and he did the andoran locus andoran acolytes battalion Yeah, I ended up on his team. We always determined teams randomly right at the start of the game So that way people can't plan out like team synergies, you know So we just like everybody makes their own list in sequestered away and then we Uh, and then we just at the start of the game Everybody rolls 2d6 and the two highest and the two lowest are on a team and then we just switch sides Right that way like you can't ever the board can't be set up in favor The lists can't be built to be favored. It just has to be like whatever you wanted to bring and we'll see how this wacky alliances get together, right? Which I really like it's fun because it means you don't you never know who your partner's going to be right both player and army But I ended up with brendon, which is cool And the two other the two other guys are like, oh good. Let's put all the good players on one side of the table Right, like it's cool. It's cool. Um But that's a pretty soft OBR list, right? Like he had no immortal scar None of that. I mean, I don't get me wrong. Morteca are still really good, but it's it's an ive host and stuff like that So that's the weaker build And you know, he had wharf frost and merciless blizzard and yeah, the things you would imagine and archon is a very powerful caster and all of that Uh, but it was like a really good game. We were we were rolling up against corn and a pure stone guard lumineath So, okay, uh two cows and a bunch of Mallet, you know elves bunch of a bunch of stone guard elves and the stone mage and You know everything stone guard. There we go. Yeah, sure stone guard. Yeah, a little stone guard You know all people who are immune to rend so that was that And oh and then he also took the twins because he really likes the twins and he wants to he he wants to see if they're playable Right, especially now with the point strokes And then the other he was partnered with corn which is just like the funniest thing because the corn player Puts their their altar On the table and that lumineath player just lives in constant fear Right, sure. Yeah Yeah, these six mortals on and miscast. Yeah, exactly. So just like the the last time The last time this happened He wasn't on his team, but he was playing against the corn player who had it on the table And he he primal miscast Oh He took the chance. He needed a roll. He was trying to get off his uh, his five up, you know protecty ward spell It's bubble ward and he was like, I only need plus one. I just need to roll anything That's I like he was like, I got this primal die. I just need to roll anything. That's not a one, right? Yeah And he's good because you only needed he only needed one to get his cast successful and the other side Didn't have any unbinds left. So it felt like the safest play Right Rolled the one boom. Just just exploded his wizard into pieces Max mortal wound instead. Um Anyways, so and then I played suns because I'm really I think I'm going to play suns during this season Uh, yeah, so they feel solid. I played them the other day Yeah, it's really interesting actually like the babies are more appealing at their lower points value You can actually get more in there So I ran in stampa tribe with a Beast smasha and then three babies and one baby. That was my list. Okay. Um, remember this is all 15 our points um And I quite like the list. Uh, no wizards. No arcane tome. No, none of that get that crap out of here Um, I took the null the the null dust Powder or whatever the thing that or whatever it is the thing that lets me unbind once and then if you unbind you get to keep unbinding Oh, yeah, that's I think the other one. I can't remember the name of that one But yeah, so an icon or maybe or something like that, whichever icon. Yeah, it's the icon. Yeah, there you go I thought that was a good play with the primal magic dice. It felt like it was because You do that I can always heroic willpower as well So both my dudes can can unbind But then if that guy uses a primal magic die to like nail some early unbinds It lets me actually unbind quite a few spells if I can if I can use the dice to just keep tripping into successful unbinds Since then the favor is there. We'll never having a caster Because I hate magic and magic is stupid Um Mention that a few times every during when we play All players of the table all of us will just be like we'll fail easy spells and just be like magic is dumb That's what we say every time because just magic is dumb It's dumb um and so uh You know it turned out to be a really really really great game Okay, uh like we went it was pretty even scoring. We were up like slightly But there was a lot of back and forth And I was it made me think a lot about what makes a great game and so You know and it was interesting too because we were like we won priority gave them the first turn We had a little bit into them like I took both my giants Into them turn one which they knew was going to happen like they had set up. They grabbed all the points They got all their tactics all that first turns. They were in a strong position uh because you know spring the trap is like three across the middle, right? Yeah and Uh, you know we got into them But it wasn't great and then we won priority into two And I think brendan wanted to take it and like push for the double and I was like no Like we will it will be so much worse if we take the double here Okay Because like I wasn't in a position where anything good was going to happen on my entire side of the army Like I knew I was going to be stuck Right and I was just going to get gummed up in my own works And the corn or the the lumeneth player I was engaged with which is like the worst Of course, I had to end up lining up against the lumeneth player, right? So Ignoring all of my giant's rend is like super fun right yeah and Focus on the debuffs all the debuffs Four giants they love debuffs. Yeah, they love them. Yeah, just I was I was like Saddled under negative a million to hit because of the two cow mountains the entire game, right? All right And those things hit really hard Like just uh, I don't know if anybody's had the luxury of playing it These things I play against them all the time because my buddy's been a big fan of cow mountains since the beginning I was always tried to make them work and those things if they do Get all like if you don't have them under penalties and they get to go to twos and twos which is pretty reasonable for them to achieve Uh, they go ham, right? Like they will do a good amount of damage to your giants um Ben Staffordson, I would love that that's how aos should go it won't I mean like I don't really want that magic Is a part of aos and should be its own thing, but I love it in 40k like I've played new 40k And you know like I'm okay with magic just being like a lot of shooting attacks It's fine um the So we but brendan was in a position where he could have like charged into the corn player and done some more damage But I was also like I so we talked and I was like, yeah But you're that faction that wants to be hit first anyways, right? I was like if you come if you let him come into you I can bring it like he might do some damage. He might not I doubt he'll lift your units and I can oh by the way hit like for dogs my dogs are all here with me Say hello to my beautiful girl here There it is There you go. Got my co-host um And uh I was like but then we'll be able to strike back because I knew I had like I had all my babies in reserve to do Like this great beta strike. They'd be really good against the corn player and I was like Let's just give the turn away like yes, we'll take some more damage But it sets us up for the double into three and I think we can survive it And it made it a really more interesting game that also like we did pull the double into three And then we just like locked it out by the end of turn three. I had it just like On lock, right? Yeah, but like there was a lot of back and forth through it And it made for a really good game You know so like and it was because we did the thing You know, it's what we said during the show always give the turn away Right. Yeah, unless you can literally win Right then which I knew we wouldn't Like we'd be in a decent position, but we wouldn't win and I was like if we get the double into three we will win Yeah, right that will be the win for us because we will just lift their units right And I thought about that and it was funny because it ended up putting us in a stronger position Right like I knew my Giants wouldn't fall. I knew I'd be able to retreat them at the bottom of two Like there's no way the luminous player had enough damage to bring both my jump. My mega is down So I was like, I knew it was good. I was going to be fine to give it away But it made for a much more interesting game overall everybody had a good time Even though there was still a double turn that happened, right? So it's not like it was just because it was ego I go it was because We played into the longer game Yeah, I thought that that before yeah instead of trying to get like oh, let me just try and hope the dice go real in my favor for this quick win Right, but which that like sometimes works, but often falls apart Right Uh, and and I thought I was very much thinking about your mindset Yeah, as I was thinking about this because because everybody walked away being like man, that was a really good game It was like lots of back and forth. We all had a fun time It felt like everybody was engaged all the units got to do stuff We're doing cool things and the game went longer and we all felt like there This was this was good for us all to be here, right? It felt worth it Right, that's great. Yeah Yeah, 100. Yeah, I've said to you before like what I've gone to tournaments taking a list that's designed to play Deeper into the game. Yep. It's not designed to win big. It's not designed to lose big, right? So many lists you see they're like, I mean some armies if you're going iron jaws Yeah, you're probably gonna try to win big early or you're gonna lose the game because iron jaws don't have a lot of Staying power, right? It's like some armies they have to lean in one way or another But yeah, it just it creates more potential for these ideal conditions to exist in most of your games So it doesn't always happen, but it's it's a really nice intent. I think Exactly and you know, I thought it'd be fun to like deep dive into this and say You know, what is it about? That game and part of it like what makes a good game Yeah, to me is one You actually play enough of the game For everybody there to feel like it was worth going through the trouble to like Drive to wherever you went to play and set up all your terrain and set up the stupid armies and build a list like right Like there's a lot of pregame stuff And to me at least three good rounds of play is necessary for that All right, I don't want to actually play a game where You you win in one like the game's over the top of one. That's awful, right? I don't like winning that way. I don't like losing that way. It just feels terrible Yeah, in all regards. I I think that like duration of the game actually really matters to having a good game of aos and so Playing that lists that that as you just said don't necessarily win big but don't lose big either, right? They are meant to play the long game. It may be really think and I know it's funny to say that with Playing giants and and also as an avowed iron jaws player, right? But when I played my iron jaws, I oh, I basically never went for the alpha never Yeah, okay I am like the kg constellation players what I call it Like I'm always trying to create a constant like an encirclement zone Around the enemy like I'm spreading and trying to circle and bait them into making a wrong move and then Then I use all that advanced movement to like spring the trap and bring everybody from anywhere I want to fight whatever I want once it's out of position Like I'm always a turn two turn three Player like you you make your move in turn three try or two. Sorry in turn two Right trying to win into turn three player with the iron. That's that's always how I'm thinking about it, right? Yeah. Yeah Um And so, oh, yeah, sorry. I did have I never put the power point up. Hey, there we go good games Thank you, Corbin. I it's only one slide today. It's just good games of age stigmar. I should have really put that up um so The so that's I think a thing that makes a fun game right is when you actually get the experience Right a short Like I want to know I'd love people to put in the chat or down in the comments Do you actually enjoy a game when it's basically over in round one and that's it? Like that's it. That's the game you play one round and you're like, okay game's done Like you don't like the priority role is irrelevant. Does anybody really enjoy that game? Does anybody really have fun? with that thing Um, I don't know I I'd be very curious to see if people have have fun in that regard Um, like for me the best games go somewhere between three to five turns Like you got to go all the way to the bottom of three Right, so basically like sometimes you'll be like, all right Well, let's roll for priority four and if it goes your way the game's over if it goes my way we keep playing Like I've been in that position many times and I'm generally okay with that Right, but I like I like a game that goes like into a good turn for where you're like, yeah, this is this is good Pulling it out, right? We're having that that full experience You got to really start thinking about what you're doing with those limited game pieces you've got left, right? Yeah, and uh Yeah, I mean it just it occurred to me is maybe the most important thing is uh to a good game of aos is actually Playing the full game of aos, which I know sounds like a stupid thing to say But how many people do we see talk about building these alpha lists? They get memed and they get done and I'm just like why is that fun for you at all? Right, so I had some other ones on the list. Yeah hit me. I'm ready Okay. All right, so let's see um A big personal one for me as you know is minimizing gacha situations now. That's uh, That's a like a broad right way to express a bit of a nuanced idea but Some armies have rules that elicit more potential for gachas And if I'm playing one of those armies, I want to try to like one thing that tom said early on when I was watching this show years ago was You can verify to what degree you think this is true or not, but this was at least his public expression He wants to not win a game On basically on gachas, right? He doesn't want a very game. Tom is like the most transparent player in the world. Yes Yeah, I love I love that Yeah, and that was that was certainly my experience. We've only had one gaming against each other But that that was my experience and yeah, so it just because it can Turn things on a dime when you have one of those especially at a tournament where it's just you You didn't realize something could happen and it's very consequential and it just screws the game up And no, like I said, there's nuance here. There's like gray here to this, right? It's not necessarily black or white Uh, probably you don't want to play the enemy's army. You're not going to be like, oh, exactly. Yeah charge here Right, like there's one you're transparent about your units and what they can do and stuff like that, right? Like murderless would be at least in my mind and other other people's mileage is going to vary is like murderless Is inherently a potential gotcha mechanic, right where okay, then you're playing corn. I'm playing iron jaws It's my turn. I've got to pick a battle tactic and then you go out the end of my hero phase Oh, sorry I'm going to murder us d6 and then prevent your ability from doing a battle tactic, right? Sure. Sure Like and I just wasn't thinking of now that's kind of on me, but that's also kind of a gotcha So there's there's gray with it. I get that especially at a tournament, but it's just for my mileage. Yeah, I've I hate Doing gotchas and and it's not a lot of fun to receive them as well So let me give you two good examples. I said, Brenda is a good player and I actually have two examples of this like hot off my mind Okay from this week. Yeah So where where so again, you know, Brenda and I have played a lot of games of of Aos right and we're playing against two people that are more much more casual right and So at one point in time the corn player made a move And brendan was like and he he sat down the measuring stick and measured and he's like, did you mean to be at like 8.9 inches with that move He's like this will let me redeploy and it's a really and like that was to his brick of 30 more tech He's like getting a d6 extra movement is very important to my more tech He's like, there's no reason you had to be that point one inch I do do you mean to end right there or did you mean to end basically right outside of nine inches? Right, right And the corn player was like, oh, yeah, sorry. I absolutely didn't mean to give you the redeploy. Is it okay if I scoot it back? He's like, yeah, of course, that's why I'm telling you like go for it. That's perfectly cool Like and the dude likes I mean again because it's an irrelevant difference in the overall game, right? I mean literally it's moving the model from like here To there That's the change, right? But it had it would have a material impact on what brendan could do and he was like, okay cool Yeah, and they scooted his little his one guy back that was at the front of the unit wasn't even like the whole You know, I was one dude turning over the line absolutely and Uh, and and he was like, all right, great. And then we went on with the face, right? But that's just like transparent play Right there. Yeah redeploy is really important. I think yeah That's how I always play redeploy as well play play redeploy transparently. Absolutely. Yep And then this happened again later because brendan had the like bubble around his main dude of neg 3 inches to charge Yeah, okay and The bloodthirster was set up at the edge of that thing and he's like and after he moved him He's like, hey He sat down the stick and he was like you are literally towing in to this neg 3 to charge thing If you if you scoot back Right like an eighth of an inch you will be outside of this range, right? Because you like I know your bloodthirster is going for a long charge Right. So like maybe don't screw yourself Right. Sure, right And like it wasn't the case where the bloodthirster needed to be that close to somebody where there was no choice The bloodthirster clearly had the full choice Like he had all the room in the world to work where he could have been An eighth of an inch back and not suffered that neg 3 and so we did that and then Life went out, right? That's to me is good transparent play It made the one and and the the newer player was like Asking questions and being involved because there is this the onus here isn't solely on the one player This is a two-way street And that's what made it so good because the corn player at the same time Who's like sort of the person who plays the least was like Hey, okay. Can you explain to me these two units real quick? Can you tell me again like I I can charge one of these two units? Like what are their capabilities again? So I understand which one's the better charge, right? And so he was being an active participant in that communication as well Right to make it transparent. So he could make the best decisions, right? And I think that that made for a much better experience rather than him being afraid to ask questions or stuff like that Right, he didn't just like willy-nilly charge into the unit. That was the wrong thing to charge, right? Yeah, that kind of thing. So Yeah, it's interesting looking at some of these comments in our chat, right? Like goes but if you know, it can happen It's not a gotcha So if you take that like I have seen Some of the best players like some of the best players that I played against over the eight years in the country Well, just forget things And and sometimes when you forget things they and I know it's part of the game It's I bring it up right because to me still up to eight years. It's a it's a gray area like I'm not sure how Like if you were to try to establish a principle for the entire community It may not necessarily be a good idea to play it how I personally prefer to play it So I I get all of that and somebody said like what's the difference between a gotcha and baiting a trap And some players love like leaning into that like setting up traps and getting their opponents to do things that they like Yeah, that's part of the game to some degree. I get that but yeah I more raise it because it's still one fence that I don't have like a really crystal clear understanding about You know that is gray around gotcha. I think I I think I can give a decent definition Okay, like it's not going to be a bright line, but I can give you a pretty good line. You ready? Yeah. Yeah When your opponent takes an action That has an obvious other choice And is on the edge case like the things I'm talking about right Where at no cost to them they could have chosen the opposite Right and they're tripping into a known game rule That is when you can that is when you should openly have the thing basically like the examples I gave You moved 8.9. Did you mean to be at nine and sir, you know, like just outside of nine right, right? My aura on this is six inches. Let me remind you I stated it earlier But this unit has an aura of six inches or something that's negative whatever to charge or or whatever. Yeah, right Okay, yeah, absolutely Whereas like if I move a unit forward, so let let me talk about baiting a trap, right sure in the same game I used my little single baby giant to bait a trap to get a unit to move where I wanted it to move to come Go fight it and go kill that easy baby giant and pick it up so then I could set up a counter charge Right, right. That's baiting a trap. I'm not going to tell him. Hey, I'm setting a trap for you Right, I will have a good counter charge here That's just learning the game and playing right and but that's that's them moving their game piece They decided to move and charge you you moved a model out there. I'm trading my pieces That's the difference Right applying. I think the difference here is is it an obvious and important game rule not a skill test Just just an existing rule in the game that they are on the edge running a foul of because of what is An extremely minor misplay of a thing. They're just they just aren't thinking of at that moment because there's so much stuff that needs to be in your head Absolutely, it always goes back to the one of the principles and the player's code which I've told you before I feel like Collectively, we've not sufficiently internalized for my money the importance of this role reminder opponent about rules They may have forgotten to use or that they've used incorrectly, especially when doing so is to your opponent's advantage rather than your own So like again, there's there's some gray there But uh, I want to call my my friend out brice now This was on me because I played suns a thousand times, right? I just we were playing a practice game the other day and he had three babies into me And I just wasn't thinking about my sequence of activation, right? I had vandals and my ten vindictors the beautiful Amazing comp power pair that you were fully behind obviously and I do remember that from last week. Yes They I activated the ten vindictors first not thinking about the stuff in the bag, right? So I think you just see just breaks go here and say and I should have activated vandals first He was just in the heat of the moment. I wasn't thinking about it. I was being an airhead, right? So it's like it's not necessarily on brice to remind me in that situation because that's ultimately that's me being stupid Sure, because I I should know better, but it I you could argue that maybe that's an example But anyhow, yeah, so here's another one. Um, I'm curious what you think about this I did three stone guard into my pants by the way, and it felt I was like, okay Because those guys had like their four aboard because I was fighting them on objective that they controlled and I came into them with the babies and I was like Okay, all right. Uh, I was like, well, it's a four up roll. I stuff you in the bag and slay you instantly, right? Yeah, and And then I rolled the three dice four five six. I was like, boom Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. Eat them little Those I love eating those little delicious stone guard The lumeneth player was uh, not thrilled, uh, but it was a great moment for me Let me just say that at any rate go ahead Yeah, absolutely. I mean to brow off a few obvious ones be clear with your intent communicate very well So, I mean, that's really important like hey, I'm going to make sure that The this back row that's being screened. There are two inches off my front line of screen, right? So that you're not if you got a two inch reach You're not able to swing over the top But I'm still within three inches of wherever you end up with me when you charge me so that if you kill my screen I'm gonna get pilot like things like just communicate very clearly and don't don't be messy That ties into playing clean warhammer do some probably like using my best games of all time are like really clean games of warhammer being very clear with intent Especially the charges critical charges One of my friend Jeff now in the head of gateway open He just won the cleanest warhammer award at our last event in in march Like jeff is an immaculate warhammer player That's I think that's a huge one in that so uh rules writing I feel like certain armies can elicit negative Obviously more likely to elicit negative play experience by the nature of the rules writing OBR is probably the quintessential example in my mind right now A little salty after yesterday's experience against catacross the list like catacross arkin six mortis guard Five death riders, etc. Like that is just That's a it was horrific like we played spring the trap three objectives I'm relatively slow because I'm playing stormkeep. I was trying to stretch them out because Basically my understanding of against OBR right now is don't play the game against them Just try to win on primary and then do your damnedest to take up battle tactics But whatever they get they're just going to obliterate and you're not going to do anything to them Like it's the rules currently for like a mortis guard Catacross won't die arkin won't die the mortis guard are you're not going to be able to kill them unless you play on a double Like oh, maybe you'll kill so here's an example the math on 10 protectors against mystic shield all out defense And catacross plus one save mortis guard with a four up ward from some spell or something 10 protectors would kill one a mortis guard One Yeah So anyway, yeah in certain rules that you know, some armies it just elicits very difficult experiences That drives me insane No, I get it. I think that's right. I think there are armies that are more That are more likely to steer into this But I don't want to make this an npe discussion, but I do think you're right Right and I agree with all the points you made and and to just add to that that communication Like I said, it is a two-way street. I think a better game is had when You as the player are actively asking questions So what the corn player was doing like ask the questions. Hey, can you tell me these stats on that unit again? Can you remind me of those capabilities? What's the what's the special thing they did? I remember you said they did some special thing But I don't remember what the special thing is, right? Yeah Like there's no reason you shouldn't be asking your your opponent that stuff if you don't know you shouldn't feel embarrassed at all It just makes for a better game. I will happily tell anybody anything About anything in my army, right? Like there's no hidden information. It's not a hidden information game There's no cards face down right so Like I I just think that that kind of stuff is really important to to actually just like be actively in the game Let me give you let me give you another another potential here. Okay for what makes a good game I think what makes a good game Is when something unusual or low probability happens Okay, yeah So for example I keep referencing this one game because it just it really put it in my head because It's one. It's the most reasons I have recency bias, but two it was just a really full of a lot of fun moments. Here's a fun thing The more tech guard through sheer good rolling and luck After being charged by like most of the corn army, right? Had one guy left Nice got him to one and if you know anything about fighting obr You got to kill him to a man. You know what's coming? Yeah Yeah, and the fact that it came out to one left We were all like, yes, this one guy lives, you know, he stands and then of course by the end of the game There was like 25 of them back on the table, right? Like that's just what happens, you know um but The by the way, this is the non-oppressive obr like playing the list he was playing He did have a fun list. It had a lot of good back and forth It's not like I want to make clear to all the obr players out there There's not like every obr list is necessarily toxic. It was perfectly fine to play against um Just most of them What's that? Just most of them are toxic. It's it's sure There's a there may be a a problem right now with that army. Yes okay so but like And you think well, yeah, okay, so unusual situations, you know We the the stuffing all three on the four up in the bag or whatever Right, we've all had the thing where we we roll a bunch of sixes. There's a bunch of exploding hits or something really cool happens Yeah, and You're like, yeah, but that's just luck, right? It's just rng Right, you can't actually play to that and I was thinking about that and I disagree Some armies are better at creating those types of moments as are some lists right And so like playing to your outs and having those like well, I'm not going to do the big play all the time But having the option to do the big play destruction has this a lot Where it has a lot of like wacky things you can try Right where it's like, well You know, I don't know if this is actually going to happen, but let's let's go nuts Let's go all in we'll take the shot right and if it goes off super cool Like you're not doing it as your standard battle plan as it were Yeah Yeah, I can I roll a four up for the what 46 mortal wounds or 5d6 mortal wounds on the game or something Exactly exactly, right the I think a lot of destruction armies are built this way, but they're not alone like skaven can do this Certainly very well. There's actually a bit of this in chaos as well There's some of it sprinkled throughout the rest of the game, right? And so just like having that chance where you're like, okay Primary battle plan, but then here's the second call it the high variance strategy, right? Like if you're in a position where you have a low chance of victory The only way you're going to win is if you employ a high variance strategy. This is that's an old like Political saw right like if you're a candidate Who's pulling very low you switch from the standard way of Politicking to the high variance strategy where you take big swings and hope it works, right? okay Got some current candidates in my head right now. Sure. Absolutely, right? Um, but like the In the same way You can you can do that same thing with warhammer, right? You can like well if I get behind This is my high variance strategy. I'm going for right. We're gonna we're gonna make those big decisions right, um Uh And so like I think again, it's not about having that as a main thing It's about having that knowing that your list opens the door to that, right? Right So I don't agree with that statement that feels more like a timmy statement, but I'm very much a johnny spike It could be but I think those kinds of dice moments or or random moments do make for memorable games They're often the things that get shared and talked about and stick in your head Um, just because they're unusual I don't think like the timmy might enjoy it more, but I do think there's a memorability factor to it Regardless of your psychographic profile like For the johnny it could very well be win your Rube goldberg machine plan works perfectly Sure, right like that's also an unlikely thing to occur for a johnny Right, but it's still there As a a thing like that's that that would be the johnny version of that occurring in my mind Right you go you can tell me if you think i'm still wrong The oan jackson Watching live. What's up oan? Hope you're doing well, buddy But the oan jackson says a blizzard wizard teleport boom is the current hotness for this play You're not wrong. Absolutely old blizzard wizard That's that that's the high varying strategy like you don't you're not trying to do it But if the if the need arises whatever it's time for blizzard wizard. It's your turn. I'm not he's not going out turn one But turn three when I need to dig deep. Maybe he comes out Uh, yeah a hundred percent Well, what else let's see put i'm gonna Rattle off a few because we're running short on time a few maybe obvious ones Put put command points in spot where you both can easily track them together Uh, I feel like sometimes i've been annoying to my opponent like how many command points you got left Turn the command points got left like no, let's just get get some big foam dies together Put them in the same spot make it obvious Again, especially against obr players. It just feels like they're cheating the whole time because they are cheating They've got eight and yeah, they did they basically they have infinite command points So yeah, just just make it make it easy for your opponent Uh, let's see Love that we all keep our command point die on top of terrain like I had the way of my board is set up I have like very tall pieces of terrain Um, because I believe an actual line of sight blocking on my table And so there's and I always build all my terrain with a flat spot at the top So that there's always a place to set dice Right, so all the players can all set a diced face up and we can all just look around and be like, okay I see how many you got left good go ahead Yeah, a hundred percent Uh, we haven't said it yet. I mean some of these things we've we've said before but if anyone who hasn't heard You know establishing up front what kind of game we are playing what kind of game we are having Uh, we you and I have talked about this many times, right? Like happy to play no take backs, especially But let's let's clarify up front. What kind of how are we doing dice? Are we rerolling anything that's remotely on anything, right? Potentially sniff cock dice. We're rerolling it And yeah, so that's that's really critical Clear wound fighting would also fall into this by the way Uh, like we have I have little holders little 3d printed holders For the dice. I don't just set the board next to him I have little 3d printed dice holders that I use that have a little arrow pointing off of them on one side You can find the stl is free on uh on like Thingiverse and my manufacturing all that So you can get those and get print those yourself. I have a big pile of my always bring So my units I can like set a dice there. It doesn't get knocked. It doesn't get moved It sits right next to the model pointing at the model Good Beautiful. Yeah This will be ironic for right now because I do I still the salt is flowing from last night fighting the salt Like yeah, I've especially found vents against my select the last time I got salty was A game against my friend brett zeiler. So brett Had a good turn which apparently I could not abide That that my friend had one good turns with night haunts because obviously I'm supposed to kick the hell out of night haunt They're not supposed to beat me. He had a great turn And uh, he gave me a new uh, I don't want to say it here But I've got a new nickname because of that experience locally because I got I got a little sad I got a little salty. So yeah fighting it like man It is a constant struggle to fight the salt like last night I I was in the worst mood last night dude playing against obr That was like the worst experience that I recently by his side that I've had in a long time And I've had some rough experience. I've been playing against all these powerful armies. Oh, we got some daggers We got some dogs. They're getting excited because it's because people just walked in my house Because I'm I'm leaving in a few minutes to go. So that's it Anyway, yeah fighting like good god. It's it's there. It's a struggle sometimes fighting the salt No, it is and I think that's actually a good thing to sort of end on honestly There's probably a lot more we could talk here. This is worth more explanation in the future And what I what I want what I'd love is actually for people to just like put in the comments What are the things that to to you makes a good game a memorable game something you enjoy like drop that down in the comments Put that in the chat that kind of thing But I think you're right probably the most important thing is just being in the right headspace We've all been there where we're salty Where we have a bad day where like something turns against us with the luck and man, it's It's hard right to fight against that. I think benjamin just said something really nice, which I I love this I found that sort of narrating outcomes, especially crazy when helps fight the salt Uh, it's not wrong like telling a little story behind it where you where you're forced to sort of narrativize eulogize your own loss in some way like does actually Like somehow make it better right because you can tell a fun story Of how the weedy little goblin brought down your mega gargant or whatever right like it it happened um I think like you know, we've talked about a lot of the things having a long game Having the back and forth game playing transparently the open communication right the talking before the game We mentioned that at the beginning right so you know what kind of game you're playing uh, and I think that like yeah the the final one is make sure you're in the right headspace to play the game Right, if you're having a bad day It's really easy for that to just kind of like infect the game and that telling a story around it is actually a really cool Really cool idea. I love that. I'm gonna try that more in my own games Like we've done that some certainly for for those big memorable moments Uh, but like I think you're dead on like I think that's that's a good way to like combat that I feel bad about the thing right Yeah, I love that because then you then you turn it into a positive story like by creating that little narrative in that moment, right? Yeah, cool. All right. Good. Well tyler quick easy short show Yeah, man. That's fun. There we go everybody. I hope you have a good rest of your week Sorry for the short show this week. Like I said, I've got to get in the car We're going to gen con gonna have a lot of fun There over the weekend. I'll be doing the miniature painting competition. That's what that is there And we're just gonna have play a lot of games. It's gonna be a good old time. I'm very much looking forward to it This is a great Great weekend for me every year of just like actually just nerding out and enjoying stuff. So Thank you everyone for watching. I hope all of our people who are over in europe and so on appreciate the earlier time I thank you all for tuning in Do hit that like button help other people find the show Thank you so much everybody. We really appreciate it. Don't forget Hit like hit subscribe do all those things that make all those dings if you want to Support the show. There's lots of ways you can do that in the links down below Don't forget to check out what we talked about in pick of the week tyler Thanks so much buddy for jumping in earlier time. You're a hero as always And all of you are heroes Really appreciate it and as always We'll see you next