 Good afternoon and welcome to week four of 10 Weeks in Jamaica, Theater Conversations from Jamaica to the World. I'm Magalena, co-founder and co-artistic director of Akiwa Abaka Arts. We are an international theater production company that creates plays, concerts, talks, and processes for making plays, concerts, and talks for the global stage. This series is presented in partnership with Raw Management Agency, an esteemed talent agency representing artists in groups across all genres in film, television, theater, voiceovers, branding, and endorsements. We are very grateful to work in collaboration with Ms. Nadine Rollins, Raw Management's managing director and co-curator for 10 Weeks in Jamaica. 10 Weeks in Jamaica, Theater Conversations from Jamaica to the World is a talk series that shares the behind the scenes stories of Jamaica's theater community with the global theater community and members of the Jamaican and Caribbean diaspora. Each week, Jamaica's leading theater pioneers and practitioners narrate their histories and memories of the Jamaican stage and offer their visions for the future development of theater in this 21st century. This series is made possible by our sponsors and publisher, hallround.com, a free and open platform for theater makers worldwide that amplifies progressive, disruptive ideas about art form and facilitates connections between diverse theater practitioners. 10 Weeks in Jamaica is also sponsored by Martin E. Siegel Theater Center at the City University of New York in Manhattan. The Siegel Center is home to theater artists, scholars, students, performing arts managers in the local and international performance communities. Now, whether you are joining us for the first time or you have been watching weekly since we started the series on November 1st, we thank you very much for being in our audience today and hope that you will return weekly through the end of the series on January 3rd. Please, if you would be so kind as to continue to join us and be updated on everything by subscribing to the subscribe button to become part of our growing family and to click the notification button below, you know that cute little bell to get reminders on upcoming episodes and engagements from our channel. And while you're at it, go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter at akibaabacaarts. Now, at this time, it is my pleasure to introduce my partner and co-founder and co-artistic director, Akiba Abaca, a distinguished director, dramatist, producer, actor, arts educator, I can go audit on. Akiba has been bringing theater to diverse communities throughout her 20-plus year career. Akiba will be your host and moderator for today's conversation. Hey, Akiba. Hey, girl. Hey, girl. Week four. Week four. We wanna learn some more in week four. I have my notebook and my pen ready because this is a lesson, you know, when you have theater practitioners, like we have to, I'm not gonna spoil them, I'm not gonna say anything, although if they saw the fight and they already know, but you need to take notes and you need to learn. And so today, look at your notebook. And I'm moderating, not gonna one-up me. I have my stuff too. I have my notebook out. I'm ready, okay? Awesome. Take it away, Akiba. Thank you so much, Magalie. There is no business like show business and show business is a huge part of brand Jamaica. Today's conversation features the people who are least often seen, but most responsible for everything that you see in the theater, the producers. From Brooklyn to Beijing, from Chile to Canada and all cities and countries in between, the COVID-19 pandemic has affected the livelihood of theater producers and people that they employ and serve. All New York City Broadway shows are closed until May 2021. And theaters in London's West End are closed indefinitely. Market watch is reporting that the creative industry sector in the UK is projected to lose over 74 billion pounds or 94 billion US dollars. London's Creative Industries Federation predicts that over 400,000 creative jobs will be lost as a result of the pandemic. Theater practitioners are waiting patiently in the wings for the next act in this COVID-19 drama, which will be brought on by more social distancing and vaccines. Today we are joined by an esteemed panel of three of Jamaica's most successful theater producers for a discussion on the repertory and commercial theater in Jamaica since the Little Theater Movement, Pantamine, and the onset of Roots Theater. English-born Jamaican actor Glenn Titus Campbell, O.D. Order of Distinction through Service Officer Class has been performing commercially for over 39 years. He became a household name among Jamaicans locally and overseas when he was featured in the sitcom, Titus Come to Town, excuse me, Titus in Town, which aired on the Jamaican Broadcast Corporation. Mr. Campbell has performed in more than 70 stage productions. Most notable productions include Smile Orange by Trevor Roan, Ross Noah and The Hawk, and Love Games by Patrick Brown. Mr. Campbell's television and film credits include Third World Cup, Going to Extremes on ABC, Small Island on the BBC One, and the recently released Jamaican feature film, Sprinter, produced by Will Smith. He is a company director for Jambiz International Limited and national adjudicator for the Jamaica Cultural Development Commission, JCDC, Speech and Drama Competitions. Welcome, Glenn. How do you do? How do you do? A pleasant how to do to you, sir. Good day, man. Good day, yes, sir. Andrew Roche has been in the business of theater for over 35 years. He started a stage manager with Ginger Knight in Boy Blue starring Oliver Samuel. He has stage managed for Jambiz International and Blue Mountain Productions in the UK. Roche wrote and produced Strength of a Woman and that which won the Best Comedy Award for the ITI Actor Boy Awards. Andrew Roche is currently the artistic director and of a world-wide group of companies for the past five years. Welcome, Andrew. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm happy to be here. We are happy to have you. How do you say it? Make up yourself, Roche. Awesome. Lenford Salmon is one of the founding directors of Jambiz International, having started the organization in 1998. He holds a master's degree in business administration from the University of the West Indies and is primarily responsible for sales and marketing of Jambiz International. He started his career in entertainment as an actor back in the 1970s and has performed in numerous productions on stage and in film and television. No longer acting, Mr. Salmon spends most of his time actively involved in the business of theater. Welcome, Lenford. All right. Gentlemen, before we begin, I'm gonna start by mapping the Jamaican theater scene. Just to give our viewers a picture of what we're talking about, where Kingston is concerned. So Kingston is in the southeastern region of the island, correct? That's correct. Awesome. And so for those of us who haven't been home in a while, who left Jamaica when our eyes were literally where our knees are today, when I was at our knee, or those of us who haven't been to Kingston, when you come into Kingston from the Norman Manley Airport, that long strip of road taking you into town, you get to the first neighborhood, which is Harborview. You take a left and you follow that road all the way into downtown Kingston, right? You're on track. Yes. And then we come up in the area that we've been talking about a few weeks ago, the North Parade area where the ward theater is. That's correct. Yep. All right, so now that area and the waterfront is what you're calling downtown, downtown Kingston. And then we go, we keep going north up to halfway tree and then over to New Kingston. So downtown Kingston is old Kingston. And then after you pass half a trail, you get into New Kingston or the corporate area, correct? Well, the entire thing is regarded as a corporate area. But you are perfectly right in having that kind of distinction. Just for the history buffs. Yes. Kingston proper actually goes up to what is called Turnton Bridge, which is just a little below crossroads. That's actually the parish. Kingston is actually a parish in its own writing. Okay. So the suburbs, absolutely. The suburbs above crossroads is actually the parish of St Andrew. But because one municipality governs, it's called, it's actually called the Kingston and St Andrew Municipal Corporation. It has come over time to be regarded as one parish, but it's actually two parishes. Okay. Okay. See, no, I learned something new every single day, even though I was born right there under the clock and halfway tree, as they say, when you're born in the city, you're born after tree. So I don't want to burst your bubble, but Alfred Tree isn't properly in Kingston, actually. Alfred Tree is in St Andrew. Oh, I also said, Andrew Mabon, all right. Yeah, definitely. I did that bit of mapping because I know that many of the theaters are in the corporate area, as opposed to the downtown area, where in many cities, the theaters are in the downtown area. And we're going to talk a little bit more about that. But we, I wanted to just give that snapshot. So you get the feeling of where we are. So downtown is by the water and uptown is near the mountains. If you keep going past uptown, you end up in the beautiful blue mountains. Yeah, that's a good distinction. That's a good way to put it. All right, let me do something. Glenn, you are known throughout the Caribbean and it's diaspora as a top-notch actor. And according to your fan base on Instagram, a real G. Yeah. Anamise, how did you come to start producing theater on such a large stage, a large scale, from actor to producer? How did that take place? All right, so I have the distinction of having started in theater when most of us did as a hobby. I was going to Jamaica College at the time and you leave from school and you go to a rehearsal and you make theater in the evenings or on weekends. I then went into the corporate world, spent some 12 years in corporate theater with one of the public utility companies. And then I also left from that and went into public relations and then I managed a nightclub. And so I got my exposure to business and seeing how the tables, how the machinery runs. And so I decided that when Jambiz was formed in 1998, Lenford, Simon, Patrick Brown, Trevor Nairn and they incorporated me as their lead actor, I started to have this itch to do a little more, be a part of the making of theater, the business of theater, which was one of the reasons we formed Jambiz. All of us had years of experience before in theater. But we said that let's make theater a business. Let's take it from just where it's just a hobby for everyone. Let's see if we can make some money out of this and take care of our families. And so more and more, along with Lenford's guidance and assistance, I started to go into the business side of things. And by little, I started to take stuff from him. I'd start being in charge of the rehearsal preparation and so he'd give me a budget for rehearsals. And then when we go into production, I'd start to put down my foot and say Patrick and Trevor because creatives, they tend not to have any conscience when it comes to spending money. So all right, we're having a production, we're having a meal, a family sitting down to dinner and four people going to eat food. And he wanted this big spread. I am the one that said, eat it. No, they're on a diet. Big spread over 200 performances is going to cost you so much. And I said, oh, so this young man has a knack for being stingy and tight with the money. OK, we'll put him in charge of the money. And so that's how it kind of evolved into my being on the production side of things and kind of still being lead actor, but now also having the cap as being producer as well. Awesome. Andrew, like Glenn, you are also an artist entrepreneur, often serving as playwright and director for Worldwin. But you pride yourself as being a businessman first. How do you reconcile the distinction between artist and commercial theater producer? All right, as an artist, most of the artists has this sentiment to the art. Some of them, it doesn't matter if they make a dollar from it. The love of it alone, carry them through. No, as Glenn said, we have families to feed. In Jamaica, when people recognize you as a. Glenn Campbell, Saman, Lenford, Saman as Andrew wrote, you have to carry yourself in a particular way and it costs money to do that, right? So we now have to go into the business of not just the love of the theater, but to make money from it. So that alone drives you to the other aspect of theater producing where the bulk of money, I think, is made from producing. So that's how I end up in that aspect of it. And moreover, when you tour with somebody like Oliver Samwells, who does not have the time to do the business aspect of things, you find yourself as stage manager doing the business for him also. So things like those brought me to another level of theater, which is the business aspect of theater. And here I am. Awesome. Lenford, a couple of weeks ago, we had Anya Gludon and Dr. Deborah Hickling Gordon on the show. And these are two daughters of the Little Theater Movement pantomime stage. Your history in theater also began with LTM pantomime. Tell us about your transition from acting to producing. Yeah, I actually learned quite a lot. I spent 12 years in with the Little Theater. Well, 12 years on stage. Accumulatively, I was in the theater for about 20 years because I kind of graduated into management at the Little Theater under the tutelage and guidance of Professor Russ Nettleford, Mrs. Gludon, Heathie Amail, Wycliffe Bennett, those kinds of stalwarts of the movement, George Carter. So I was a student and of a keen interest in the business side of things at Little Theater whilst I was on stage. They did recognize that I had that interest because at the time I was actually studying studying business. And I kind of got the opportunity from being involved with the Little Theater movement to actually help to produce to produce the National pantomime. What is little known is that Professor Russ Nettleford, who spent most of his time at the University of the West Indies, actually pulled me one side when they answered to me, Son, you know, they don't really have any great respect for artists, right? I said, yes, sir, I'm well aware. They don't really think too many of us have much sense. You know, I said, yes, you get that kind of condescending kind of approach from time to time. And he said, by the time I met him, I was I had already completed some college studies at what was then known as the College of Arts, Science and Technology, CAST, which is now the University of Technology. So I had I had a college, a college diploma at the time. And he encouraged me. He said, look, get yourself to be a scholar because it's the only time when people take you seriously, even in the theater, even if you're going to study theater, because I said, sir, my interest is not in studying too much, but I get pretty bored by this thing called studies and he said, study what you love. And Professor Nittifor was very instrumental in my time at the university. I eventually went to UWI to do a first degree, then a second degree, started some post-grad and doctoral studies, turned whatless, drop off the boat in terms of that. I get crossing from time to time by all the professors there to come back to complete, maybe one day the ball will bite me again. So I my my my early work in producing was actually started and was and was encouraged and and I got great help from people like George Cart and others in terms of trying to understand the business of producing theater. So it actually goes goes goes a way back. So by the time I had come to Jambiz, I already had a sense of what producing theater was. And then what producing theater in the real commercial sense, because the theater is not really a commercial entity. The theater is a quasi commercial. It wants to pay its way, but the theater was never intended to earn a profit and for people to benefit from the profit. Every dime that the theater movement earns goes back into the development of the theater and and in the arts in Jamaica, generally, because to upkeep the theater is a mighty expensive, a mighty, mighty expensive undertaking. They get no government sub subvention. So they have to literally maintain that space by what comes out of the the annual national pantomime. Regrettably, over time, the pantomime is not what it used to be anymore in terms of its attractiveness to an audience. So the struggles are even no more real than before in terms of maintaining that space called the little theater. But that's perhaps an entire different program because that's that's apart from its controversial nature. It's just so it's a volumous nature to make that that that analysis will be for an entirely different different evening altogether. And we had a little bit of a conversation about that two weeks ago when we talked about the little theater movement. So yeah. Yeah. So in a nutshell, when I came to Jambes, Patrick had been an established business man for some years. Trevor Nairn had been an established theater practitioner for many years. Again, it was to the almost coming back to another university again. I learned so much from these two gentlemen from the business side, from the artistic side. Again, as a reputation for being known as Titus, but Patrick is not is not as tight, but he has a very unique knack of of of sense in what works and what doesn't work. Both artistically and business wise. And I think Jambes has benefited from his wise counsel in terms of how we have we have operated throughout throughout the year. So I have learned on on on on many different fronts, it tremendously from the little theater movement and from and from the principal persons in Jambes. Awesome. So you mentioned Professor Rex Nettleford and actually next week, we will be going into his contribution to the Jamaican stage. I actually had an opportunity to meet Dr. Nettleford in 2000 on the steps of the Philip Sherlock Center. And everything you said, you sound just like him. That's exactly how he would roll up on students and tell us, you know, what we needed to do and how we needed to focus our studies so that we would end up in the right career path and not just a right career path, but a career path that would impact change and help build our nations wherever we were coming from in the world. So it's really great to hear that little bit of story about Dr. Nettleford. Andrew, so we hear the the foundation of what inspired what called you to what I call the other side of the rehearsal hall, the producer side. Tell me about your business model at World Wind. How is the organization set up? Because you are more of a commercial theatre presenter. You all are. Tell us a little bit about your business model. All right, for World Wind, Michael Dawson, who is the CEO of World Wind, has entered into several businesses. World Wind is a company with several entities. The theatre aspect is just one. Now, we try to have theatre be independent of, say, probably a vibe started clothing line or a strictly roots water. And we have strict principles that we have to adhere to in terms of how we operate the theatre. As a business, sometimes, unlike jambies who runs theatre for themselves right throughout the year, we would rent the theatre, also the theatre space, right? So the theatre has to be making money to sustain itself because a rental is not cheap in Jamaica and you have staff to pay and all the rest of it. So everything we can do to make that dollar for the theatre we do. For example, we would rent the theatre in the morning for a church service and then in the evening, we have plays, right? Not every day we have theatre in the theatre space. We'll have parties, we'll have wedding reception, just about anything to keep the space paying for itself. And every entity, as I said, of World Wind has to pay its own way. So as the theatre manager, I have to ensure that whatever I do at the end of the month, the books have to be balanced and the theatre pays for itself. We can do plays in there that probably 10 persons, 20 persons come to see this place. But we have other things in terms of we would sponsor it with, like, our strictly roots water, right? So if we televise it, the strictly roots water get branded, which in and of itself is commercial. So we are flexible. We can do a lot of things with the space that we have. So you're doing the multi-use or multi-purpose space model where you have a theatre, but inside of that complex, there are other businesses that are operated within that complex. And the visibility of each business brings audiences to the theatre and the theatre audience brings visibility and sales to your other businesses. So it's strictly commercial. The till rings all the way around for you at World Wind. That's the way we approach it. OK, great. So, Glenn and Lennford, tell us about your particular model and your business structure at Jambiz. Yeah, I didn't want to go. I've probably. You go, go. I'll back you up. I'll back you up. Go ahead. As Glenn intimated earlier towards the we've all been doing theatre for a very, very long time. Like I said, I spent several years in the pantomime. Trevor has been around from from from theatre was created in 1901. So he's been around for a very, very, very long time. So actually has been a long standing tutor lecturer at the at the Edamale School of the Performing, Visitor and Performing Arts. That's Trevor Nairn, right? Trevor Nairn, Patrick does some some lecture in there. I do some from time to time. But so we we started to do some production. I think I was invited when was Gorba Jelly Glenn or boy. Gorba Jelly was nineteen eighty something about eighty. Seventy something. You know, while the jelly came to Boston in the 90s to the strand. Remember that I was working on that show. Indeed. Indeed. So it was about 96 Lenny. No, no, no, no, no. That's the that's that's the that's the remote. That's the remote. Actually, I had I had the privilege of working on both. Right. The the no, that's no, that's the sec. That there have been three remounts, actually. Oh, but the original Gorba Jelly wasn't about 1987. At the Bond Theatre. Yes. With Glenn, Glenn alternated with Black Ellis and Rosie Murray and so on. Clive Anderson. Clive. I alternated with Clive, with with with with by the time. That was my first production with Trevor and Patrick. They had a company at a time called Maspo. That's actually produced, produced Gorba Jelly. But by and large, as Glenn said, it was a hobby. Patrick wasn't serious. Patrick was Patrick is a trained civil engineer. Writing was his passion. He writing discovered him, as he would want to call it, when he was pressured into writing up at the end of your production, when he was enrolled at the center of Austin campus of the University of the West Indies in his final year of study as an engineer. And people loved it so much that eventually became a production, which is called Friends, eventually graduating into a production called Friends. And so writing found him and he has not stopped writing since. He has absolutely literally almost given up being a civil engineer and I've taken on writing full time because he just loves it and doesn't want to go back to go to anything else. And we we we sat down and we said, Hey, folks, we're doing this as a hobby, but we have a recognized that entertainment is one of the biggest business in the world. And if we really get very serious about this thing, Patrick said, this is what I really love. We all said, boy, this is what we really love. We'd love to be able to do it and not having to go to a nine to five job. And we all said, well, let us let us give it a go. At the time. Theater in Jamaica was dominated by small spaces, the big, the big little theater and so on. The pantomime was was king at the time in the big theater was very hard to get into those theater to do anything. When Trevor Rohn came back to to to Jamaica from his studies overseas in the in the mid 1970s. Trevor, along with Ivan Booster, given some history, you know, and Munezaka and some other folks started what they call theater 77. Even convinced or tricked. Well, even said convinced or a father said tricked him into using his his his his his car his car garage to convert it into a theater. And these are all these are all pillar playwrights of the Jamaican state on linear Trevor Rohn. These are serious serious. This would be almost like the tri-sector of the the Ed Bullens, Lorraine Hansberry, James Baldwin, tri-sector. We're talking about for the Jamaican stage. OK, all right. Here we go. Yeah, group of 77 pioneered the use of small spaces to do theater, either to it would have been the word theater and then the little theater. Those were the theater and creative and creative arts. Well, even before creative arts, it was a dramatic theater. Yes, you double right. So but for 77 at the barn, kind of pioneered use of small spaces, Trevor wanted somewhere where he could do his productions in in in what he called an economical way. Small cast, smaller audiences, but still work. The band theater capacity of one hundred and fifty people. And it would run typically a good play in Jamaica would typically run for about three months. If you did a three month run five days per week, you would have done very well. Then came along a gentleman called called you King. At the same barn and you King was on air very popular as a captain King on on RGR and we had a blood following and you King is the first person that had productions, not five, but every single night at the barn, twice on Saturdays, twice on Sundays. We will let them every single night. Seven days a week. Yes. Monday and evening on Saturday. And wait, I'm going to kill him. They're trying to kill him. No, but we all love that we all loved it. It was unknown, unheard of. It is able to see a full audience before you every night. Watching theater and join themselves. And but even then it will run for three months. We thought, OK, when we sum it all up, that came to about nine thousand people. And we said there must be more than nine thousand people in the corporate area across Jamaica who would want to see a good quality production. And having your own space would have been key to success. And so those are the two critical factors that we thought would be would would be the pillar of our success. Luckily, we found a space at center stage which could accommodate 250 people. We didn't believe that it was just about putting a production on. We said we didn't believe we needed to do more than two solid productions each year. A kind of theater season had kind of developed out of the panterine tradition of a box in the opening day after Christmas. Yeah, we plugged into that tradition. We didn't believe that we necessarily need to recreate the wheel. And we would run that down until about the end of June. We'd rehearse again in July and we'd be on the boardwalks again towards the end of July for a summer production, which would complete the cycle to take us back into our Christmas production. And we started that in 1998. And I've been doing that success with the Sims for the 20 odd years, 20 odd years since since then. We have a very simple philosophy. We're selling a product. The product has got to be attractive. The product has got to be what people want. The product has to satisfy our own principles and our own standards. It's no different from case these selling patties. It's no different from Grace Kennedy selling a good tomato ketchup. We just believe that it's just a different product with a different name and different ingredients. But to go to market, you have to have a product which is attractive, a product that people would want to consume. People want to part with their hard earned dollars to get utility out of this, out of this product. They want to come to see the product in a comfortable space. They want to see a product which will entertain them. They want to see a product where they could enjoy with family. And so we went about crafting that product and to give it to them. And we think we've not done too bad a job at it at all. So that has, in a nutshell, has been our philosophy. You remind me a lot of Barry Gordy, all three of you. You remind me of Barry Gordy in the early days of Motown. That was it, you know, is this as good as this play or is this song in the case of Barry Gordy? Legend has it that he wouldn't release a song in unless. And as I said, legend, OK, I don't know if it's true. I heard through the grapevine. You get it pun intended. Yeah, I heard that Mr. Gordy would test the song up against a person who was hungry. Would you if you were hungry and you had one dollar and it was between this song and a burger, which one would you buy? And if they didn't, if the person didn't say the song, he wouldn't release the song. If they said the burger, he wouldn't release the song. So the idea was that the art had to be as good as the bare necessities of life, food, clothes and shelter. And it had to be quality. You like to add to sorry, just like to add to Lenny's point that very important in your business model is branding, as he mentioned, but so building goodwill. So your standards have to be at a certain level constantly. Your product, your cast, your professionalism, everything has to be up there and maintained over the 20 something years. So that it reached a point now where someone will come off the plane at Norman Manley, as you mentioned earlier, and will come straight to New Kingston and say, could I get two tickets for whatever is on tonight? Because it's at center stage. They know Patrick Brown has written it. They know Glenn Campbell is probably in it. That is goodwill. That is branding. And it's something that you have to cherish and maintain in business. Custom loyalty and most most definitely product, the quality of the product has to be of such like, for example, we would like a Deborah here, we'd bring her to Jamaica and we do a show because we think that the quality of the show is that good. Jambi show, for example, if we particularly like a Jambi show and we have a Florida base, we would take a Jambi show to Florida, right? And so we, as I say, we have no qualms in the production we do as long as it's a quality production. Yeah, you know, I'm glad you bring you bring up Florida. As Glenn taught me the other day, Kingston 21 is on the South Florida. And I and that for those of you who don't know, I think what are their 20 municipalities in Kingston proper, right? Kingston one to 20. No, 20 postal, 20 postal zone. Twenty post it. You see, it's what happened when you leave. It's one municipality, but 20 postal zone. Thank you, sir. So there are 20 postal zones. So the joke is that Miami is Kingston 21. Indeed. So you bring up New York, New York is fast becoming Kingston 22. OK, I don't know where Boston is, but we're growing. I was going to be Kingston 50, but we're sorry. No, no, you're making the 30s. You bring up this model, which is where I want to go next, Andrew. And and and Glenn. Correct me and straight me out here, because one of the things I love about Jamaica's arts culture, music culture is the sound systems, right? And the sound systems would start in Kingston, but they would have these big trucks that would travel all over the island. And if you had a storm love in Kingston, you would still get a storm love dance in Clarendon or in Old Arbor. Up in the in the bushes where my people are from. And you would still even be able to get storm love in New York at the same time that storm love is still playing in Kingston. So and I also was able to experience this in this type of pattern with your theater. You would have the show in Kingston and then multiple productions running at the same time all over the island and some even touring internationally. Tell us about that touring model and how that touring model helps to grow your brand and also helps you to meet your. It doesn't meet or beat your bottom line. But for for for whirlwind, we like to tour for ourselves in that we will take the shows overseas and produce it ourselves. In that way, you have a greater control of a lot of things. As I say, whirlwind as a theater group, we are far beyond that. We we have other products. So, for example, we take a play. Take you and I from here or whatever to Florida or to New York. We can brand it with all our other products. So New York get to see not just a good play, but good products from whirlwind. We might we have so many other stuff that we can brand a play with. So we'd like to take our shows on the road ourselves. I mean, we do New York, we do Florida, we do England. We do countless of places as a whirlwind product, a whirlwind show. Not to say we won't sell shows to people because there are areas that you're not familiar with and things like that. So if a producer there wants to do a show, we will sell them a show. But we particularly like to do the shows ourselves. So it's not it's not a presenting model. You literally build a show in the towns that you go to as opposed to yes, and we try to we try to do these shows as events, not just a play, but an event where people will come and people enjoy themselves. They can buy a good Jamaican guisada, a good Jamaican book, a good Jamaican whatever, because we take products with us also that we can market. Awesome. So, you know, you follow up on Andrew's point, Akiba. Yes, sir. In the early days, Jambiz would, as Andrew said, we probably sell a show to someone out of town for an argument, say after a while, we realized that we were bearing the blunt of the cost of producing the show, because we have to deal with the truck. We have to pull down the lights and the set and have a crew go down and put all of this up. We had to pay actors and put them up sometimes, depending on how far and if we're doing like the western side of the island. And so after a while, when we realize that to take a show outside of center stage to any part, anywhere else in Jamaica could run you anywhere from three hundred thousand to half a million dollars and start collect at the gate yet. This is upfront cost to produce a show to carry. And so we said, it would be better for that. We take the risk and hopefully make whatever profit there was to make. And so this is how it evolved, where, as Andrew said, we had greater control over it. We know where we're going. We would have a head team that would go and look at the venue, look how much seats would be able to put in there. Lenford and his crew would be doing the marketing and we're doing billboards and town criers and so much goes into putting on probably just one show for one night. It's much money. But if you do it properly, you can see your way at the end of the day. So for overseas, it was the same thing. Now, World Wind, fortunately, has some more connections, maybe overseas than we do, but we have a set of people that work with South Florida. We have people in New York. We had people in Boston. So various Canada, various places that we have connections that they will be the ones that do the groundwork in terms of the producing and the promotion of the show. And then we said, OK, the show will cost you $100. And you pay the airfare, you put us up, you buy the material to be to the set, you take the risk, you just pay us to come and do the show for you. So Jambiz utilizes a producing model where you build a show in Jamaica and and a presenting model where companies can book you like they would book an artist like they can book on tour or book Sizzler on tour. And it's a little bit less expensive for them to bring you to book you on that presenting model than them trying to build that show in in their own town. And it is also less expensive for you because you're able to recoup your money through touring. So the money you spend in Jamaica, you're able to recoup that by from booking fees overseas. So that's the model that you all are working on. Yes. Yes, as you said, it's a combination. It includes that that modality. OK, so it's a it's a it's a combination. OK, OK. You know, one of the as we talk about touring, I remember is that the the Jamaican place would come to the strand. And the strand theater now, you know, you're talking to producers, because producers talking in two numbers. We talking box office draw and we talking in house size. So you'll you've heard these producers so far. Two hundred and fifty seat theater, two hundred. Anytime they start counting the seats, you know what they're doing. So the strand theater was fourteen hundred seats in the nineties. It's probably a little less now. And I remember the theater used to be full to the rafters when when you guys would come into town. So it's definitely a great model, utilizing marketing that's close to the people. Not so much the traditional. I didn't see your marketing in the Boston globe. But if I went into a Jamaican restaurant, the flyers would be everywhere. If I'm listening to W. E. R. S. to the reggae show, you all would be on the on the on the on on the radio station. So you all were able to effectively reach the massive subculture of the Caribbean diaspora in the US. And it's a subculture that the premier theater companies, the Huntington's, the arts, Emerson's are not able to reach. Tell us a little bit about your ability to reach that subculture. What is the aesthetic? What are the cultural specificities that you all are speaking to without giving up your trade secrets, Lenford? I'm not going to pull all your trade secrets from you. But how do you reach that subculture? Because in Jamaica, excuse me, in Boston, the Caribbean community is about forty four percent of the immigrant population here. How do we get them into the theaters? Yeah, it's not it's not really secret, actually. It's it's it's it's well known. In fact, we're not just a theater, but we're Caribbean culture work in that main market is where you have good. We have good ethnic media existing in the different locations. It used to be the easiest place to market Caribbean product now is South Florida. Why? Because you have diaspora ethnic platforms in that area. You'll have a radio waves, which is very popular in the South Florida area. When we when we lost double L.I.B. in New York, if you live in New York, you would have known Gil Bailey and double L.I.B. and Jeff Barnes and so on. Caribbean media was very popular and the plays and and and Caribbean artists would do so much better. Reggae artists, soccer artists and so on would have done so much better because they are the double L.I.B. platform to swim on. We lost double L.I.B. And since then, we have not been able to get into any mainstream ethnic Caribbean media to replace it. And that has been significant. Replacing it, though, has been a lot of what is known as pirate stations, these underground stations with vast listenership. We are but those primarily work for the reggae shows rather than for for theater. There's another dynamic which you mentioned, like in this trend, in this trend area, we used to work with a gentleman which runs everybody's Caribbean magazine, the one called Herman Hall. Yes, New York. Herman is the one who used to produce a show in Boston. Now, Herman himself had to work with a local producer in the Boston area because he would not have had the footprints himself in Boston to pull it off. And so he would have worked with local people in the era who know the mom and pop shops, who know where to go to leave the flyers, who know where most people go. You have to get on the ground. You went when a lot of people I've seen people envy Herman Hall for having a successful Brooklyn College was 20 or was 2300 people. Right. And Herman Hall will fill that space and fill Lehman College in the Bronx with 2300 people and have stood up there and hear people envy Herman Hall in filling those spaces. But they don't know the kind of work that Herman had to put in. I mean, Andrew can tell you, Andrew would spend a week or two with Herman in that New York area. You've got to be at Jamaica Center in that cold, handing out flyers day in, day out to cast a Jamaican audience because we don't we no longer have a double L.I.B. to get that word out. Herman had to use me. This magazine did help because he did have a good subscriber base to his everybody's Caribbean magazine. And that was his strength. But even then, Herman had to stand with those guys, Andrew would assist from time to time and stand up at that subway entrance and you flyers out. You had to beat the pavement to get those 2300 people into Brooklyn College, into Lehman College, into Queens College. So there are there are many layers. There's no one size fit all for the different areas, different different strategies would have to be used to to fill different spaces. Like I said, whirlwind is a great whirlwind's greatest base is actually in Florida because Mikey is from is from Florida. So Michael knows that area at the back of his hands. It's more difficult for him to produce, say, in New York or or or Orlando, or I mean, he would never even dream of talking about all by himself at all. Well, so it's something that one part of the model is this. Don't say that because we have done this. If the thing is like like you said, Herman, Herman, all. I, for one, has learned from Herman, all. And Michael Dawson is one of those persons who is like Herman, all would go and put it and and give out the flyers himself day after day after day. Granted, I'll give you that some places you need. You need people on the ground, right? But believe me, we have a crew that does their research, make the links and it works. So you have an informal partnership model in when it comes to touring in some of these foreign countries. Oh, it's quite formal, you know, it's not. OK, all right. Quite formal. Tell us a little. We don't work. We don't work at all unless we have a signed contract in place. But we're doing a business. We operate as as a strict business. And when I say informal, I'm thinking about some of the the. The they are large. They are large theaters in many of these towns, right? That can present plays that pick plays from the touring circuits because shows touring all over the world. And so as far as actual other theater producers in these towns, you all are not working through those particular theater producers. You are working through the the merchants and the people who are closest to that community. It's not because it's not because we wouldn't want to, you know, right? So that's where their business model would not fit our business model, because they're primarily marketing those shows to to a mainstream market where our language would not necessarily communicate to that market. So if we were to go to a mainstream producer in Boston, they would not be interested in doing our play because their market is different. What? So what do we do? So let me tell you one of the shifts that's happening in theater all over the world, especially in the US and and also in Boston is that the mainstream is shifting, as a matter of fact, two two weeks ago when we were talking with Ania Gludon and Miss Faye Ellington and Dr. Hicklin Gordon, we talked about the fact that the people who were in the margins and all the stories that were in the margins are now the stories that are on the main stage, the main page. The story, the narrative is now in the margin. So one of the things that there's still a distinction, but there's still a distinction even in that, you know, because coming from the margin can come from different margins. There's no one margin. Of course. So you may come from the margin in Boston to come to mainstream Boston, but to come from the margin or even mainstream Jamaica and go to mainstream Boston is a completely different analysis. What would need to happen if we what would that transition look like? And I'm more talking about the can't let me be very direct. Can a world win? What would need to happen to make a world win production? Say it stops here or a love games from Jambiz? What would need to happen for that to be on the stage of, say, the Paramount or in Boston or roundabout theater in New York? Because things are very simple. It's really very simple. Partible and right about universal themes. OK. We we we we craft a production based on audience in what will work with a particular audience. If Patrick Brown knows that this play is going to be presented to non-Jamaicans in Boston, the same themes we it will be presented in a completely different way. Take for instance, Patrick has three versions. One of Patrick's first play was a play called December. Patrick has about Patrick has two distinct versions of December. There's a December which is set in Jamaica with the Jamaican dialect. And then there's the December, which was written. Actually, we were in discussions with Ozzy Davis and Ruby D to actually produce this because a two-hander with two old people to set December in New York with Ozzy D and and and Ozzy D and Ruby Davis in New York. Patrick had to go back to that play and restructure that play language wise, in terms of what are the cultural references. December speaks about the game of cricket. Cricket is a West Indian. Americans know absolutely nothing about cricket. We said this, Lenny. I kind of disagree somewhat. And I tell you why. The music, for example, the the the music that is done in the Jamaican dialect. Across all boundaries, whether you're you're a white American, whether you're from Europe, it cross all boundaries and they sing them line for line. So, no, in terms of the in terms of a play, they might take longer to pick up on certain other jokes and all the rest of it. But if we feed it to them like like the regular music is fed to them, they will buy into it, you know, I don't believe in watering down the dialect because that is the authentic Jamaican piece that we want to sell the dialect. The language I tell you, I mean, I mean, that's your view, Andrew, but it's not supported by by by what's out there. Let me tell you, years ago, you see, after I was in third world cup and I was in dance, I was in all those Jamaican movements. I walked into Virgin don't in in in in in Times Square. Where they put them in the Virgin circuit to sell and we went up to the Clark because we particularly wanted to know how much of it was sold. The guy went to the box office and checked and told us that in two years, five copies were sold. And he said, my friend, Americans, they're not going to buy this because they don't understand the language. You're making a fundamental error by using the music. The music is different. How the people don't even understand the word. You know, I boomed by, you know, how boomed by by got bunch of bands telling the trouble. When we're not when we're not going to make on the story, when a Jamaican homosexual group alerted the American as to what boom by by meant and immediately Bougibant and became enemy number one and all the homosexuals in the world were saying boom by by until they were saying until they found out because of the language. So you want to play a play or a movie depends on your understanding story. You can understand the music without understanding one. So what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that's your view, which I respect, which is fine. And it's an interesting view. Oliver Samwell's, yeah, BPD has crossed over into into into into into. You know, you're muted. Absolutely. Absolutely. Incorrect. Because that's not correct. That's not correct. What I'm going to do, I'm going to end this one minute. No, that's not correct. Hold on one moment. I'm going to just keep driving this conversation in a way that will allow some different perspectives to come to for. I think that's a good point about the language and and what music does because music, music is rhythmic. Sometimes you don't even have to understand. I listen to a lot of world music. I listen to a lot of music from Brazil, from France, from China. I listen to everything and I don't know what they're saying. So you make a great point, Linford, about the distinction between music and what happens to narrative in music and what happens to narrative or story in theater and literary arts, because theater is a literary art. But one of the things that I kind of I want to kind of pull down. And I'm going to let you in again one minute. I want to set up this for you here, Andrew. One of the things that I'm seeing in the industry across the board is that groups of people are wanting to. And when I talk about the margins, what's happening is people who were in those marginalized communities are coming out and saying we are not going to be marginalized. We're not going to be subordinated groups. And these theaters in these towns are nonprofit theaters and they are theaters that belong to the people. And we, the people, our group of people, Caribbean people, Asian people, whoever, wherever we're from, we've been left out of these theaters. So what's happening, what's actually happening, guys, is that a lot of producers are looking for the work. And one of the challenges is that they don't know the work. They don't know the culture. So let's focus more on the story and what parts of the story because you can adapt language. Some of the things that we do at Art Semerson, we do cert titles. We actually, in the theater, in a lot of touring place because we bring plays from Poland, we bring plays from Chile. We have a company coming out of South from Soweto that does opera and they do it in their language. They do it in-house stuff. They, you know, they're not adapting to English and they're keeping their South African culture within the presentation of a Verdi opera, you know? And so what I'm wanting to get into here, and maybe even throwing this over to Glenn as an actor, then the story, the narrative arc, and I like what you were saying, Linford, about those adaptations and, man, that production of December with Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee would have been fantastic. What are the aspects of Jamaican culture that one would see in the plays that you produce? And when I say aspects, the aesthetic, what is it about Jamaican culture that one is able to feel if you're able to sit still, whether you understand or don't understand? What are y'all doing that's driving the audience? What will I feel as an audience member in a Jamaican play? Just want to focus it there for a second. All right, so we're speaking about, as Linford mentioned, a lot of our plays, Patrick Brown written scripts, deal with universal subject matters, whether it be Ladies of the Night or whether it be Rass Noir and the Ark, which looks at the Bible story of Noah and whatever it is, but the Jamaican nuances are specific to the West Indian culture and the Jamaican people in terms of the language structure of even some of the jokes and what we find funny. Certain people won't find funny, so you have to be specific to your target audience, you know who you're marketing to. And then they will, how the market builds and spreads is they bring someone, OK, there's a Jamaican who lives in Chicago and they marry a black American and they bring them along to the show and they will be there and they're sitting and sitting in that space with whether it's 2,000 people laughing hardly at something and they'll pick up something and they'll lean over to their Jamaican and say, I know something very funny is happening right here. I'm not sure what it is, but it looks and feels good. There's a feel to it. There's a rhythmic, a kind of pattern to how we speak and how we move. A lot of our comedy is very physical. So whether you're not understanding everything that we say directly, how we move, the facial expressions, the tonal quality of the voice is what we do that makes it so much fun, so much so interesting, that holds the audience and draws them in. We take it everywhere. And so even if they're not understanding every single nuance, every single line, they get in the gist of the story. You know, so you're talking about the use of spectacle and gesture, production quality, sound, lights, costuming, you know, to your point, Glenn, I had the opportunity to see a production of Endgame, which is Irish. Yeah, Endgame in Italian. And I don't speak any Italian. And it was a Robert Wilson play and Robert Wilson is known for these grand productions, great use of color and space and lighting. And and for some reason, halfway in, without end, to be honest, not really knowing Endgame. I didn't know the play either. I didn't finish reading it. I was I was one of those scholars that spent more time in the theater than in the classroom myself. But knew of the play, knew the storyline, but didn't know every every part. And after a while, I was able to to achieve it. This this conversation on language is something that's happening across the board with a lot of different cultures. So you see, you see, you all are agreeing with me. Yes, you don't know because. Because people will enjoy the piece. They will follow it as best they can. As Glenn rightly say, there's something rhythmic about us Jamaican in terms of how we speak and with the action, with the whole composition of the piece. People don't really have to understand every single word, but they will follow it. So I am saying if people are prepared to sit and even try to follow it, why do we want to water down the language to change the authentic Jamaican brand, which I think that is what we should be selling apart from the story of the play that people will you will watch a karate movie for argument. See, you don't know anything about Chinese or Japanese, but you enjoy the movie because you are following it. This is where I'm coming from. No, it's a good point. And you know, it's a worthwhile argument because it's one of the ways that people are looking and trying to figure out what we talk about diversifying the theater. People are looking for new stories. There's also an opportunity for learning, for learning new cultures and learning new things and leaning in. I want to transition into where we are today in the theater and the opportunities that even though the theaters are closed and they're closed all over the world, whether what are the opportunities now? As we stand, as I said earlier in the introduction, as we stand waiting in the wings, waiting in the wings for theater spaces to open up again, waiting in the wings to see will these vaccines work, waiting in the wings to see what will social distancing look like in the in the next six months? The question here is. What will need to happen in order for theater to reemerge in Jamaica and in the Caribbean diaspora? What could that growth look like? And what what are the steps that would need to happen and what could the growth look like post or I don't want to say post, I would say in this pandemic era. I think we're in an era of things right now. Question for Glenn and don't be too hard on the audience. So we love run up and down and break the law and we're part of a wonderful. But, you know, I don't sell and we can't live without it. So talk to us. Tell me what needs to happen for us? No, I think theater will remain alive because life theater is life theater and no substitution for it. Yes, we're moving and diversifying and getting into online platforms and recording shows and putting up, putting them up for pay per view or pay on demand. But the fact is that life theater is life theater. So it will survive, has to survive. There is a certain magic about the interaction between an audience and actors on stage in a live performance that you'll never be able to capture on film. And so we just have to keep working. First of all, to keep our minds and our spirits active. We can't lose heart. We can't stay home and get despondent and decide that we're going to give up. All of us have been out of work. I've been on stage since pretty much since March 12th of this year. And the fact is I'm dying. I'm dreaming of the day when I can go back to my eight shows a week schedule. But until then, I have to find other things to do. So keep my mind active, watch productions, read scripts. And in the meantime, keep in touch with our audiences. Anything else you can get forgotten very quickly. So you need to keep in touch with your audiences. God bless social media. It wasn't around when I started, but it's here now. So there are things we can do and we have to do to keep in touch with audiences. Let them know we're still here. Remind them of work that we've done before, probably put out snippets of stuff. Keep in touch, keep the dialogue going, keep the communication open. You know, it's interesting that you would say that we just have a comment from Yard Empire. He just popped up in the comments saying Jambiz International is Jamaica's number one successful theater. I'm not throwing any shots over there, Andrew. It's Jamaica's number one successful theater simply because they understand their audience in Jamaica and globally. So it's interesting that you would talk about you have to keep that relationship and that dialogue between the art and the audience going no matter what. Speaking of which, Andrew, you have figured out a model or a new platform, relatively new platform. You've been doing it for a while that it will allow you to do that. Tell us about Jamaica Online TV. All right, it's not figuring out. Michael Dawson had the vision long before a COVID that in order to get the material that we want out, the type of material we want out, we had to have our own platform as in supposed to going to other platforms to do our material. If we have our own platform, then we can do just about anything we want. We can put in any commercials, anything at all we want on online TV. Hence, Jamaica Online TV. Jamaica Online TV is a whirlwind platform. Actually, we just finished shooting the Oliver Samwells three episodes of Oliver Back on TV for his 50th year in theater, which will be aired on from the 26th through to the 29th. And just you can just log in on Jamaica Online TV for a course. And you can watch it anytime you want, just for a one time course. It's four days. Just log on to Jamaica Online TV and you'll be able to see Oliver Back on TV after several years. So the platform is there and Lenny, we have an open door policy, as you know. If Jambis has a product that you want to go on online, we can stream live. We can do a recorded feed, whatever. We're open for dialogue. I just about any other theater for eternity because as Glenn really say, we have to keep our self current. We have to stay in the eyes of people or else we'll be forgotten. Right? There's nothing as Glenn rightly say as live theater, but we can't do live theater now, so we have to do the option, the other best thing and which is to stream them to our audience so people can look out for Oliver Samwells back on Jamaica Online TV. And it's not accidental why he chose Jamaica Online TV to come back on television. It's because of a track record and all the rest of it. We have worked with Oliver over the years and he knows what we have in terms of products and all the rest of it. So let's help welcome Oliver back to television online. Speaking of visibility, staying visible, we were we were so happy to have you, Glenn, but also to have Mr. Samwells on the conversation on in our first week. You know, so it's great to see the artists responding to the call. I'm going to throw this to to Lenford. We have a school teacher in the audience. And she's she's really making a rallying cry. She says here, Miss Nadette Grant Malcolm. She says that as a theater arts teacher, we are in a tight spot right now. The children will not be able to see a live production this time around. Jambidge productions, we need you. So we're seeing that this many in the streaming platform, the on demand model, which is one one that we're using right now, because we're using two two on demand platforms. We're using HowlRound and we're using YouTube as we speak. How you thought about an on demand model and I also would love for you to speak to what are some of the structural elements that needs to be in place for theater to not just return, emerge, but to thrive and grow, because there's always room for growth, Lenford, a number of that's been shown. So let me perhaps have to separate them and answer individually. In terms of online presence, we we are actively looking to to to get into that space as well. We're not quite sure when we'll be able to get back in an enclosed space to do theater. And this is obviously not unique to theater, to all entertainment, to all businesses worldwide. If Pfizer and the other companies do get a vaccine there quickly enough, perhaps it was in the middle of the year, we probably will get back into that space. So we are we are actively looking, we are exploring a few options at this time. We only recently just recorded one of our productions. We do have some productions that are already being recorded and we're looking to see if we can get back into that space, certainly by Christmas and announce when it will come soon. So Simon, let us talk, let us talk. Oh, absolutely. We're not we're not ruling out. We're not ruling out any any any option at all. Ever the business man, Andrew, ever the business man. Go ahead, Lenford. As a platform is there, we are interested to to to explore it. We we we have been not as eager to get off the back as many others have been because there are certain standards that we've set ourselves and that we we wanted to ensure was in place. We don't necessarily believe in taking one camera into a space and and record a production and put it online. That works for some people. It doesn't quite satisfy some of the standards we have set for ourselves. And so we try to put some more production elements to it. And that does take a little more time and a little more resources to make it happen. Yes, the resources, Lenny, the resources, the resources. But time is also a resource, right? So that kind of took a little more time than the usual. But the good news is that we are pretty close to to have in something that some some things that we can put into that space. And we're looking to do that perhaps over the over the upcoming holiday period. In terms of theater, generally, live theater, as we know, was before movies, before the advent of cinema. A lot of people said movies would have killed live theater. It didn't. When VHS came, people say, ha, cinema VHS is going to not only kill live theater, it is also going to kill cinemas. It never happened. When DVD came, they said, OK, this is it. No, it's going to kill them all. It hasn't. There's just an allure about live theater that perhaps will never die. I mean, and when I say live theater, it includes concerts, by the way. It includes music concerts, because that is theater. We can go on, we can go on watch Michael Jackson music videos. We can look at his, we can listen to his album. But if he goes to matters, the square garden, we line up in the cold to go in to see Michael in theater on stage. That's the allure of live performance, live theater that will never die. So we do believe theater is on a recess. Theater is only on a break that once people get over the fear of gathering in a space and you don't have the person sitting beside you is a COVID carrier. Once we get beyond that point, I do believe that theater will come back as strong as it has ever been, as it has ever been. But do not believe that it's a panacea. It's not just about people going back in the space. What would have worked pre COVID is what is going to work post COVID. Proper marketing, having a good product on stage. That is what people are willing to prior to their hard earned funds to see and that will not change. You know, you talk about the power or the dynamic of live performance. I've been listening to Nina Simone probably since I was in the womb. And then I had the opportunity to see her last concert before she passed away. God rest her soul. And she was quite, you know, she was she was quite on in years. And then she sat down at the piano to play Mississippi God Damn. And we're in an outside amphitheater down by the waterfront in Boston. Some of you all may know it. And she sits and I've been listening to this all my entire life. And then just the first on the piano and then she starts something happens. Something happens that there are no words. You really have to it's sensory. It happens in the senses. You it's not speech. It cannot be articulated what happens with live theater. So I agree with you. Additionally, because people get into our friends to see Michael Jackson stage. But that happens. The same movies in the trailer, the same movies in the trailer music video. But when you go to the stage, it goes crazy. And I know how the moonwalk probably better than Michael Jackson, but I still go to see him. You know, and also I agree with you 100 percent, gentlemen. And, you know, the plague, the theaters have been closed before. The theaters were closed during the plague, the black plague in its era. So the theaters will come back. I have one final question for you before we close out our session. This has been amazing. And I'm coming to you guys. It's not for 30. We're almost we're almost out of here. No, I didn't know the time had flown so fast. I thought you don't have gone half an hour. Because the conversation is so sweet. You know what happened and me, I put on my rice and peas and I love my food. So I want to eat my dinner now. So you gentlemen, you came up in the theater as young people. And my advice to you, since we know, and not as Jamaicans have a saying that says what, don't, don't spoil or something. I may be getting it wrong. Get it? You're speaking together now. You know, are you? Or me, the English boy, not me. Let me see it again, you know. OK, well, you know, the thing is, what do we say to the young people? The young we were in about two or three weeks. We're going to be our topic is called leaders of a new stage. The young, the next generation of administrators, of producers, of directors in the Jamaican space. My question to you gentlemen, as we close out and thinking about the teachers in our audience, things regenerate, things recreate themselves over time. What would you say to that young aspiring producer, whether it's a record producer, a theater producer, a young merchant producer, like yourself, Andrew, what would you say to somebody somewhere in their teens, 20s, 30s, the young 60 year olds, the young 70 year olds that are dreaming of entering and making and bringing art to the people? Any advice for them as we move on in the notion of creating and recreating yourself? OK, well, we've been saying it over and over all afternoon. First of all, you must know your audience. Who is about it? Know your audience. Be professional and make sure your product is up to standard that you can stand by it through thick and thin, because a lot of times Lenford and Patrick and they say to us actors all the time that, yes, Glenn Campbell might be in the show or Oliver Samuels might be in the show. And yes, that might add a little something to it in terms of attractability to an audience, but at the end of the day, if Glenn or Oliver is not in the show or somebody else is working that night or understudy for whatever reason, if the product is of a certain standard, people I've seen it happen. People come to a show, I was slated to be honored for whatever reason. I wasn't on that night and Glenn not there. And they sit and they grumble and they make up them face and they watch the other actor work his guts out. And then halfway through the show, they start to relax. And by the end of the show, they say, why Glenn? I don't know about you there in good. Product has to be of such that it will stand on its own. Uncompromising stability, quality and know your audience. Know who you're selling to. What would you say, Andrew? All right, definitely the quality of the product cannot be compromised in no way, shape or form, you have to. Ensure that the quality is of a one standard. Do it from your heart. You have to do it even though you're expecting financial gain is something you have to do from your heart. If you don't believe in it, it's not going to work. And as I learned from Oliver Samuels and my CEO, Michael Dawson, professionality is one of the key ingredients. You have to remain professional to what you're doing and be sincere. Recipe for success. Keep the sincere and be professional at what you do. Lenford, what's your advice to the next generation, wherever they are in their lives? Yeah, I'd like to add to what Glenn and Andrew said. I endorse all that they have said. I'd like to add to it. Glenn said you need to know the audience, not only know the audience. You have to listen. You have to learn. You have to have the art of listening to your audience and understanding what works for them. No, look, I wanted to have said this earlier. Patrick has about three, four, five scripts that he has written that we have not been able to produce in it because we don't somebody who has an audience for it. So we use it more for what we call theater readings on a Sunday morning for a more artistic set of folks who wants to see a nice artistic piece. So Patrick has so many of those scripts, but that are not commercially viable. But my main advice to anybody wanting to come into the arts is if you if you're a main motive for coming in the arts to submit money, then you've started at the wrong end of the podium. Once you do it right and put a business approach to it, the returns will come. But you have to pay attention to the other important details. First, if your main motive is the money making motive, then everything else is going to fail behind it. Once you get all the elements right, it will reward you in the long run. Hmm. I want to hold that for a moment. Hold that thought. Some of those elements are preparation. Be well studied. As you heard, Linford sharing is in the earlier part of the conversation about being well studied in in your in your craft. Being able to respond to whatever the market needs at any given time, the way you heard Andrew talks about in his business model, he'll sell you. He'll sell you a play or a bottle of water. If you show up, he's got something to sell you. Be do it for the love, be prepared. Always be professional, but also be willing to be open to to something new as you heard Glenn share earlier in his advice. This has been an amazing conversation. I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't know if I was going to be able to hold my own with you three gentlemen. I was looking at the poster. I said, look at little old me with these three oddbuck man. What am I going to do? What am I going to say? Am I going to be able to hang in there? You guys have taken me to school and I greatly, greatly appreciate it. And I have been taking notes. Trust me. Next week, next Sunday, November 29th at 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, we move into week five of 10 weeks in Jamaica. And we're going into the dance all dance all reggae and the nettleford effect. And when we talk about the nettleford effect, we're not talking about a specific technique in dance. Though, though, Dr. Nettleford was the founder of the National Dance Theater of Jamaica. We're talking about the mindset and the scholarship and the directive around owning one's culture, knowing one's craft and placing one's foot in a solid career path. These are some of the things that Dr. Nettleford not just talking students, but really prostitucized throughout Jamaican culture. So we're going to look at the impact of dance hall reggae, dance hall culture. We heard a little bit of it come up today with with Buju Song and the philosophies of Rex Nettleford, the great Rex Nettleford. We will be speaking with the dance all professor, the dancing professor himself, Mr. Orville Hall. We will be speaking with the artistic director of the National Dance Theater of Jamaica, Marlon Sims. And we will be speaking with the ever, ever, ever present and profound Neela Ebenx next week at 4 p.m. here on our YouTube channel and on HowlRound.com. You heard me say this before. Or maybe you're hearing me say it for the first time. Jamaican people, when we leave you with a walk good, when I say bye bye, we say walk good because we want all of your ways and your pathways to be good. And we theater people, especially us actors, we say, see you on the boards, which means see you at the next job. So I'm going to close out by saying walk good on the board.