 Can I ask members who are leaving the chamber to please do so quickly and quietly, thank you? Can I take this opportunity to remind members that social distancing measures are in place in the chamber and across the Holyrood campus? I ask that members take care to observe these measures, including when entering and exiting the chamber. The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 251 in the name of Douglas Ross on the campaign to restore the consultant-led maternity unit at Dr Grace Elgin. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put. With those members who wish to speak in the debate, please press the request to speak buttons now. I call on Douglas Ross to open the debate. Thank you very much, Deputy. The election seems so far away now. I want to start off by declaring an interest in this debate. My wife is due our second child one week today, and all going well will have our second child as our first allister at Dr Grace's maternity unit in Elgin. I hope that I have your permission, Deputy, to keep an eye on my phone just in case I get an urgent message. Please keep us all advised, Mr Ross. Exactly, to travel back to Moray. I would also like to start by giving some background as to how we got to this situation. In July 2018, NHS Grampian announced a temporary downgrading of the maternity unit at Dr Grace, temporary for up to a year. I remember that very clearly because the day I got a phone call from Alistair Pattinson, the general manager of Dr Grace, was the day that we had found out that we were expecting our first child. I knew if this downgrade went on for the full year, our first child would not potentially be born at Dr Grace, but he would perhaps just be one of a cohort of over 12 months who would not be able to be born in our local hospital. However, almost three years on, as we are awaiting the birth of our second child, this temporary downgrade is still in place. I think that it's unacceptable for families and expectant mums across Moray to have had this uncertainty hanging over them for far too long. I say not just those who have had to travel out with Moray to give birth. I have mentioned in the P&J today, where I put forward some of my views ahead of today's debate, that anxiety is not just for those mums who are told that they cannot give birth in Elgin and they have to go to Aberdeen or Inverness or sometimes further a field. It's also for those who are on a green pathway because my wife, Crystal, has spoken of her concerns about going for a check-up with her midwife or with the doctor that she might get told that they need to go to Aberdeen or Inverness. Even those who are on a more positive green pathway who are at the moment expected to give birth in Elgin are still worried about the possibility of having to travel further a field to give birth. I think that it's important at this point to put it into context, to look at the numbers that we are speaking about. I was grateful last night to have a discussion with Kirsty Watson and Marjorie Adams of Keep Mum, the campaign group who have done sterling efforts to restore the consultant-led maternity unit at Dr Gray's, and we went over some of the figures. I think that they are useful to hear tonight. The average of births in Elgin at Dr Gray's between 2010 and 2017, the last full year of a full consultant-led maternity unit, was 1,052. In 2010 it was 1,097, 2011, 1100, 2012, 1,072, 2013, 1,029, 2014, 1,073, 2015, 1,050, 2016, 1,036, and in 2017, 959 births in Elgin in our consultant-led maternity unit under the great care of our outstanding midwives and staff who continue to do terrific work day in, day out. In 2020, the last full year, the number of births in Elgin was 178. Less than 20 per cent of the births of Murray mums took place in Murray. 714 went to Aberdeen, 16 went to Ragemore and 13 were home births. That is why these figures tell the story themselves. So many mums having to travel out with Murray and it brings so many concerns. What happens during a couple of hours' drive from Elgin to Aberdeen while you are in labour if something goes wrong? What happens to family left at home worried about you giving birth on your way through to Aberdeen? It makes more problems and more difficulties for families with younger children. We at the moment live five or six minutes away from Dr Gray's. If Crystal has to give birth in Aberdeen we are two and a half hours away and our young son at two and a bit years old, we have to worry about childcare issues. Those are all issues that I feel have not been properly addressed by NHS Grampian. I hope that we hear from the minister today about what is going to be done to ensure that the health board responds far more positively. At the moment, the response has been dismal from NHS Grampian and I note that they put forward a briefing for today's debate, which I have to say is extremely disappointing. The briefing consists of the fact that a debate is being held. Copian pays quote from the chief executive of NHS Grampian about the independent review and a little bit about ward 3, an additional use of ward 3, the pandemic response. A page and a half from NHS Grampian that says nothing about what they have put women through in Murray over the last three years, nothing about what they have done to try and restore the consultant-led unit and nothing about what they are doing now to engage positively with the campaigners because this is a concern for local campaigners that they have not been listened to by the health board. They do not get a response from the chief executive and others to serious concerns and the Keep Mum Facebook page has a number of harrowing tales that mums have expressed following their birth experience outwith Murray and they are basically ignored by the health board. I would like the minister in summing up to respond to some of these concerns as well. We do have an independent review under way at the moment and I welcome that. I look forward to the findings. Certainly the campaigners that I spoke to last night from Keep Mum have been impressed by the engagement from that group and from Ralph Roberts and I hope that we have a positive outcome from that review. We are still in a situation where, three years on, we have a temporary downgrade that continues with no sign at the moment of that coming to an end. We need to see, if I can get a wee bit of time back, give way to Richard Lochhead. I thank the member for giving way and congratulating him on securing this important debate. One thing that we have in common is a personal experience of the maternity unit given that my younger son was born there with consultant intervention that would have not been possible if it had not been a consultant-led unit at the time. The member also agrees that it is a really important issue and he has highlighted many of the important issues for the local economy as well. If we want young families to live and work in the area, they will have a much greater degree of confidence if we have that service restored sooner rather than later. I totally agree with Richard Lochhead and there are not many campaigns that unite us, but we were united on the Plain stones in Elgin three years ago when this announcement was first made. As a local MP, I have campaigned hard for the restoration of that service as has Richard Lochhead as a local MSP and it shows that this is not a party political issue. Indeed it was not a party political issue years ago when there was a campaign to have a consultant-led maternity unit in the first place. Margaret Ewing, as the SNP MP at the time, led the charge locally and she worked with Michael Forsyth as the Conservative minister to ensure that we had a consultant-led unit and we are all working again to restore that unit because it is vitally important. Time has sadly got away from me Deputy Presiding Officer, but I do want to again highlight the outstanding staff that we have in Dr Gray's at the moment. They want to help expectant mums. We will do that with the limited numbers, so less than 20 per cent that are giving birth in Elgin at the moment, and many more Murray families should be able to experience that excellent care. I hope in summing up the minister can give us more of an update on the independent review, how that will be outlined to the campaigners with NHS Grampian and others. Will there be key milestones announced and key timescales for those milestones to be reached to ensure that we do restore that service? Finally, the review is also looking at progress that NHS Grampian has made to date to restore consultant-led services in Elgin. That was a request by the previous health secretary. If that review finds that not enough or no progress has been made, what action will be taken against NHS Grampian? Finally, expectant mums in Murray are worried about where they are going to deliver their childs. Hopefully tonight from the minister or from the Government they will hear when we will deliver a consultant-led maternity unit back at Dr Gray's. I now call Karen Adam, who is making her first speech to our Parliament today. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As this is my first opportunity, I would like to welcome you to your new role and wish you well over this next term of government. Coming into Parliament as a newly elected member may have left me feeling a bit like a cat without whiskers, still navigating my way around the building and procedures. I knew as soon as the Keep Mum campaign was highlighted to me that I wanted to get stuck straight in to support and help them in any way that I could. They are a hard-working and determined group who want the best. Rightly so, I thank them for their communication and engagement with me. I myself have given birth in various circumstances, some high risk, and this was exaggerated by living rural and travelling many miles to Aberdeen to give birth in emergency circumstances, which almost resulted in a fatal outcome. As you can imagine, I have a great deal of not just empathy, but understanding for the women in my constituency who have reached out with their experiences and the plight of the Keep Mum campaign to prevent any further distress. The year is 2021 and we should acknowledge that human beings... Sorry, my legs are shaking. That brings in human beings into this world. Sorry. Can I sit down? Just take a minute and then resume your speech. No, that's fine. I think that you need to stand up. I just want to get this right. If you want to maybe rise again and take a deep breath and continue. Okay. No, I'm fine. Thank you. Get your feet again, please. Thank you. I think that you need to... Unless there's some reason you can't... Okay, sorry. Too often, women's health is not prioritised as we often just get on and don't make the fuss. After all, babies are born every day since the dawn of time, some have said. Thankfully, attitudes have changed and we now know and understand the significant importance of how and where a child is born and how this can impact on the physical and mental health of the mother and not only that, the child. If we truly want to give children in Scotland the best start in life, we must ensure that it starts with the care and attention received during pregnancy and the moment of arrival at birth. That is the very start. I want the best start in life for my constituents. I am humbled and honoured to represent my constituency, Bamshire and Buckingham Coast. It is a rural constituency and it is rich in beauty, culture and history. Fishing is the main source of this history and culture, an industry that will be getting a high level of tension from myself over this term. While I talk of my constituency, I would like to pray to tribute to Stuart Stevenson, who represented the area for 20 years, a long-standing member who is highly regarded and fondly thought of. Deputy Presiding Officer, I ask you to be somewhat forgiving with me as this is my first speech. I promised that I would ensure a nod to Stuart and I thought, no better way of doing that, to bring a pop of eccentricity to chambers today. I also took the opportunity to honour Pride Month. Within the stunning area of Bamshire and Buckingham Coast, which attracts tourists from around the globe, is a richness in natural resources and people who are not only proud of their home but extremely resilient and resourceful. The irony is that my constituency also contained nearly 50 per cent of the universal credit claimant list for the whole of Aberdeenshire and some of the highest levels of child poverty in the shire. The north-east of Scotland has been the area that has and will be the hardest hit. As a result of Brexit and laterally, of course, the pandemic, we should not be adding more pain and suffering to the people at this time. I do hear from my constituents of a genuine concern. Sorry, my legs shake. It's a physical condition. Sorry. Please continue seated. I feel fine. It's just my legs are physical. Please resume seated. Thank you. I'll take a second until it settles and then it goes again. I do hear from my constituents of a genuine concern that when the economy of the north-east improves, not everyone will reap the benefits. I know that this Government will ensure that this does not happen. Part of this can be addressed by reflecting more broadly on the opportunities for discussions on how to revitalise the communities affected humanly. I am asking my constituents what they and their families want or imagine for their future living and working and thriving in the communities that they love. Not just for now, but for the future generations. I ask, as a new MSP, how can I prove their representation on what matters to them and what lessons are to be learned to prevent uneven developments in moving forward? If we do not invest the time to reflect on any of this, then we have missed the point entirely. Gender inequalities, for example, what we are debating today must be a part of those plans. I am ready and willing to work, debate and discuss cross-party like we are today to ensure the best possible outcomes, not only for my constituents, but the people nationally across Scotland. I welcome my colleague Hamza to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and thank him for his attention to the issue. I am sure that I will be in communication going forward to do all that we can to support those services. I also thank his predecessor, Jane Freeman, for our long-standing support and work to bring a vital consultant-led service to Dr Gray's. It is not just something on a wish list. It is part of the plan for Scotland where our people can thrive and have the best immediate start in life. Thank you, Ms Adam. I now call Edward Mountain to be followed by Roger Grant. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I firstly would like to thank my colleague Douglas Ross for securing this member's debate and for all the work that he is doing standing up for mothers in Murray. I also would like to say to Richard Lochhead that I welcome the support that he is giving. I wish to commend the campaign efforts of the Keep Mum group who have worked tirelessly to ensure that local maternity services are restored. Whilst their efforts have not been in vain, they have been frustrated, I believe, by this SNP Government. When maternity services, as we heard, were initially downgraded, families were told that they would only be a temporary solution. But it was only to be just for a year. Three years on, we have seen little progress and I know that expectant mums from Murray are still being forced to travel at unacceptable distances to give birth in either Aberdeen or in Venice. Instead of resolving the issue, the Government has launched an independent review to consider how the consultative led service could be reinstated. Lordable, but we need results. The people of Murray deserve much more than this review. I believe that they deserve urgent action to restore their local maternity services. That is what families in Murray want. I welcome the work that is being made by Richard Lochhead MSP and Douglas Ross. The shocking figures that Douglas Ross quoted this evening in The Decreasing Babies delivered in Dr Gray's are entirely predictable. The Government refused to deliver maternity services in Cathness, meaning that expectant mothers in Labour had to face prospect of being transported in the back of an ambulance for two hours to reach a centralised urban hospital. How can that be acceptable? Pregnancy, as we all know, is an anxious and stressful time. I do not believe that sending mothers on long journeys if the roads are open to Ragemore or to Aberdeen safeguards their wellbeing. As much the Government would like to sweep the issue in Cathness under the carpet, I do not believe that it is going away. The upgrading of maternity services means that over 90 per cent of expectant Cathness mums are travelling down to Ragemore. That is only 15 births out of 160 births from Cathness mums are undertaken in the locality. What is more concerning is that inductions have become more commonplace with just over half of Cathness mums being induced for birth in Ragemore hospital. That is far from ideal. The overall impact is that many women remain apprehensive about starting a new family in Cathness as they will do in Murray. That will not change until there is at least more use of air recovery teams in Cathness or the forward deployment of specialist teams to maternity units who are struggling to recruit staff themselves. That is why Murray in my mind needs a consultancy-led team. Centralising more and more services in Inverness and Aberdeen is not what our Highland communities want. What families in Cathness and Murray want is a Government that protects our local services and it is time to fully restore those services so that mothers can give birth locally. Cementing the fabric of communities by giving confidence to those who want to be part of those services so that they will get local care is what we need to do. That is what mums need to understand and be able to expect as they start their families. It is not going to be delivered by expecting mums having to travel miles to give birth. That is centralisation and that is not what we want from our health services which we are so proud of in Scotland when they deliver locally I now call Rhoda Grant to be followed by Emma Harper. I congratulate Douglas Ross for securing this important debate and I congratulate Karen Adam on her first speech in the Parliament. The birth of a child should be a joyous occasion surrounded by your partner and family. It is not an illness, it is a life event that requires to be cherished. That is why giving birth and setting your desire with access to family is crucial. However, we all know that things can go wrong and intervention is sometimes required to save both mother and child. Having obstetricians and periodetricians on hand to intervene at short notice gives confidence to the parents and also to the midwives. That should be the case in Dr Grace hospital in Elgin. It was the case until staffing shortages forced what was supposed to be a temporary closure. Unfortunately, three years later as we have heard, this appears to be a permanent change. Can I also highlight that Dr Grace, as other speakers have said, is not the only hospital in this situation. This service is no longer available at the Caithness General either and neither does there appear to be any will on the part of NHS Highland to look at this again. The issue is about lack of pediatricians. When assessing the situation in Caithness it was suggested that obstetric support alone means there might be a delay in the transfer of an emergency meaning that a baby born in difficult circumstances does not have pediatric support. The lack of both sets of professionals is forcing women in labour who get into difficulty to be transferred by ambulance while already in labour. Many of those women are giving birth in even more dangerous circumstances and situations. The case of the twins born in two different counties illustrates that. It was only the quick thinking and dedication of staff that saved the day. The alternative is induction and elective cesarean sections that are not without risk themselves and there has been a marked increase in those. A risk assessment needs to be carried out looking at the risk of more cesarean sections and also the risk of travelling while in labour especially in wintery conditions over poor roads. The Scottish Government must carry responsibility for this. They have failed to train sufficient staff to enable women to give birth closer to home. To ensure that medics are trained and more importantly trained in rural settings. In the interim they need to look at getting specialists to the mother and baby rather than expect the mother in labour to travel to services. The Scottish Government need to enable SCOTSTAR, the organisation that provides emergency stabilisation and retrieval to look at how they can extend this service to obstetrics and the associated paediatric support. It is a huge disappointment that this service at Dr Greys has not been reinstated and we need to see more tangible action on that now. In closing I pay tribute to the Keep Mum campaign group who have led the campaign to restore the service and I wish them well and offer my support in their campaign going forward until we get those services reinstated at Dr Greys. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and I welcome that Douglas Ross brought it to chamber today. I would also like to acknowledge that Richard Lochhead, the constituency MSP for Elgin, has been very active in this and it's good to see cross-party working on that particular issue. Today I want to focus my remarks from the Scottish Government's review of maternity services at Dr Greys hospital and on some similar issues presented by Rurality which are experienced by women across the Freeson Galloway in my South Scotland region and in particular in Strunrar and Wictonshire. Firstly, I would agree with the motion that the decision to downgrade maternity services in Elgin, albeit on clinical safety grounds has caused serious concern for many women and families across the area. Douglas Ross mentioned travelling distances when on a green pathway but indeed many expecting mothers with medium or high risk pregnancies they might find the prospect of travelling many miles for maternity services will cause much anxiety. It's a 150 mile round trip from Strunrar to Dumfries and personal experience from friends has told me that many people were anxious and had to travel that distance. I too commend the work of Keap Mum Group in ensuring proper consultant-led maternity service is restored at Dr Greys hospital as soon as possible. I also commend the work of the doctors, the midwives, the nurses, the whole multidisciplinary team in Dr Greys for their professionals and in working with mothers and indeed all other patients. I welcome that in March the Scottish Government commissioned Dr Greys hospital which has been chaired by Ralph Roberts, CEO of NHS Borders. The independent review is currently considering how a consultant-led services could be reinstated that is safe, deliverable and sustainable and will take into account the views of women, their families, staff and stakeholders. The review is due to publish its findings later this month and I look forward to seeing its recommendations and I welcome the action from the Scottish Government to see a safe consultant-led maternity service for mothers across Elgin and wider Murray. Across Wigdenshire in south, in my south Scotland region expecting mothers have also faced issues when it comes to maternity services. Since 2018 there have been outpatient maternity services at Galloway community hospital meaning expecting mothers either have to have a home birth or travel a 150 mile round trip to DJI when they go into labour. But a number of antenatal services such as ultrasound early onset treatment of potential complications preeclampsia managing post delivery issues they are being delivered at Galloway community hospital but this has presented many challenges for women across the area particularly when it comes to the urgent medium and high risk pregnancies. Given this I would ask the cabinet secretary in closing whether there are options available for rural hospitals like Galloway community hospital or Dr Gray's whether part of the review is looking at the multidisciplinary team skills and competence and the support needed to re-establish a consultant-led obstetrician or an obstetrician-led team. I know how important it is to have safety as a number one priority in my experience as a clinical nurse educator in NHS increasing Galloway before coming here. In closing, I again welcome this debate and the action that the Scottish Government has taken to allow for the re-establishment of a consultant-led maternity service at Dr Gray's hospital in Elgin. I repeat my ask to the cabinet secretary to explore innovative ways for rural health board settings such as Galloway and Elgin to continue to deliver to meet the needs of the local people. Thank you. I now call on Carol Mawkin who will be the last speaker in the open debate. I commend the motion from Mr Ross who has highlighted a concerning trend in which the importance of giving birth in your local area with friends and family nearby is not being recognised as it should. The motion this evening is one of many that has come across the Scottish Parliament from across the country where local representatives are forced to consider downgrading of important wards that serve communities that are already concernedly understaffed. Importantly, in that case, the local health board assured the community that this change would be temporary and yet they are still waiting for the return of the service. Now there is the time that we recognise the importance of local and experienced medical staff and particularly during the Covid outbreak. I think it brought to her attention how important local services actually are. It is clear that the choices for expected mothers are now greater than ever. In my own area, Eishanarn, an increasing number of women are choosing to give birth at home and obviously this is influenced by the ability to have choice and I am sure the pandemic as well. The ability of choice is of course only possible through the expertise, hard work and dedication of the passionate group of staff, midwives, consultants and other team members working to improve care provision for women and families right across the region. In fact, I was talking to a new first time mum which brings the thoughts about this debate. She couldn't praise highly enough the service that she's received and she stressed to me it was that local service that was really important to her and that if she'd had to go far away from family and friends she would have found that much more difficult. As we know the need for support throughout pregnancy and during the process of giving birth is absolutely vital and it's important that women are given the option to have the best take care as close to home as is reasonably possible. I'm sure that the hospital in Elgin needs the return of a consultant led service like so many maternity wards as highlighted by the member before me. We need to ensure that maternity departments have dedicated facilities for women who are experiencing unexpected pregnancy complications for example and begin to turn a new page in pre and postnatal care that will make Scotland the envy of the world and all our rural parts of Scotland as well. I would just like to end by saying just how important this subject is and I hope that we will return to this in the chamber and have time to discuss vital services around women and families in maternity units in care. Thank you. I now call on Hamza Yousaf, cabinet secretary, to wind up the debate up to seven minutes please, cabinet secretary. Thank you very much Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank Douglas Ross for bringing this motion to Parliament today. I also wish him well, in their journey ahead. I know from my own experience of having my daughter, well I don't have my daughter, my wife giving birth to my daughter Amal, that babies can be unpredictable and don't always come to the schedule that they are meant to do. So I wish him, importantly, his wife the best of health, notwithstanding everything that we're about to speak about today but I hope that she stays on that green pathway. I can also thank all the members who are here to me. This is a cross-party campaign. This is not one that is mired in politics but one that has seen people with very different political ideologies right across the political spectrum come together to rightly demand the restoration of the consultant-led maternity unit at Dr Gray's hospital in Elgin. I thank some of the other MSPs who have already contacted me. Karen Adams has already written to me. Richard Lochhead who has raised this issue with me is the local constituency MSP. They have asked and Douglas Ross may have done so in his opening remarks for me to meet with the Keep Mum campaign to visit Dr Gray's in an appropriate point. I absolutely commit to doing that. I know my predecessor did on a couple of occasions and I also start by at this point thanking the Keep Mum campaign group who we have heard from the local representatives are a formidable group but one clearly that still has continued anxiety and concern on behalf of mothers and indeed families in Elgin and indeed the wider Murray area. Let me say that I will of course do what my predecessor did and engage with that group directly and as I say, let me reaffirm from the offset my commitment to the full restoration of consultant-led maternity services at Dr Gray's. As has been mentioned the former cabinet secretary for health my predecessor Jean Freeman she committed from the outset to the reinstatement of obstetric maternity services in a safe and sustainable way and I just wanted to emphasise that point about safety. I know nobody takes that issue for granted whatsoever but there's not a member in this chamber that doesn't want to see these services fully restored to Dr Gray's as quickly as possible however we have to ensure we do so in a manner that is both safe and sustainable. We do not want and certainly nobody I suspect in Elgin or wider Murray wants to be in a position where these services are restored only for them to then be removed once again so we have to make sure they're safe and sustainable and I'll touch upon how Ralph Roberts report review will help us to get to that position. I won't go back into too much of the background but I think it is important for those that are listening and that are watching that some of the background is discussed and where we are. As I say, everybody's interest that the services that are restored are done in a safe way and a sustainable way and it was at the request of the Scottish Government that NHS Grampian produced plans for the reintroduction of both paediatric and obstetric maternity services. Phase 1 plans for safe delivery of care was approved in late 2018 and phase 2 plans for the reintroduction of paediatric and obstetric maternity services was approved. In line with this plan, a revised paediatric service model was introduced in late 2019. Progress with implementation of the obstetric elements of the plans were delayed in 2019 in light of emerging concerns in relation to anaesthetic support services and pending conclusion of the safety report that NHS Grampian at that time had commissioned. The report was published in February 2020 and then, of course, the pandemic struck. NHS resources were prioritised to focus on fighting the pandemic. The purpose of explaining the background is not to give Douglas Ross or indeed any of the elected members some sort of excuse. They are right to be angry, to be annoyed, to be anxious, to be frustrated at the time that it has taken to even just to get at this point let alone the restoration of the service. It is important to explain that throughout all of this, we have always been guided by what we think are the safety concerns and issues regarding the full restoration of the services. Douglas Ross He is rightly focused on safety. We all accept and understand that there will be a minority of women who will be unable, even with a full consultant-led service to give birth in Dr Gray's in Elgin and would have to go to Aberdeen. However, they should be the minority, not, as is currently the case, the majority. There is also a safety issue for those expectant mums, often in Labour, who have to travel. It may only be 70 miles from Elgin to Aberdeen or anywhere in Moray through to Aberdeen, but passing the glines of England in the winter is not a good journey in any condition, let alone in Labour. We have also got to think the safety of those who have to travel to give birth or while they are in Labour. Douglas Ross is absolutely correct to raise those points. He is right for those who have been in that position, whether it is the mothers who are giving birth or the fathers anxiously in the room. You cannot think of a worse moment for that journey to be undertaken. Douglas Ross is right to raise those points and he is right to say that there is a safety issue. That is why I again fully recommit this Government to the restoration of those consultant-led maternity services at Dr Gray's in full. Douglas Ross was right, again, as was Karen Adam, to push the Government in relation to milestones and timescales. I think that I can hear the exasperation in the voices of the elected members. No doubt also with the Keep Mum campaign group that there is another review that has been commissioned. I should say that I am delighted to hear across the chamber that Douglas Ross mentioned this in his opening speech. Others mentioned it, too, that the review that is being chaired by Ralph Roberts has been welcomed and the remit, the thoroughness of that review, but, importantly, the engagement. That engagement has been taken place during Covid where, of course, Ralph Roberts, I know from speaking to him, would have liked to have engaged personally one to one and perhaps there will be a chance to do that as restrictions ease. What I would say in terms of milestones, I will not pre-empt, as you would imagine, the independent review and then be particularly independent. What I will do is await for that. It will be late summer, so hopefully it won't be too long at all. We will look at those recommendations and then, of course, we will set out exactly as Douglas Ross asked us to do those milestones and timescales moving forward. I understand the urgency of that, so we will move at the pace as quickly as we possibly can. The only other point where I wanted to raise, Presiding Officer, on the conscious of time is in relation to some of the issues that were raised by others, Edward Mountain in particular, around the issues in Caithness. While I won't go into the details of the issues around Caithness, what I will say is that if he has not got details of the best art programme, he probably does, but if not, I'm happy to write to him about the details of the best art north work that is being done, that review that is commissioned jointly by NHS Grampian Highlands and Islands Board, recognising the very unique nature and complexity of delivering maternity and neonatal services north of Scotland. It's a very collaborative approach that was established to examine the model of care north in consultation with local people to develop the best possible sustainable model for the future. If he doesn't mind, I'll take away the issues he raises about Caithness. I will ensure to ask the question about whether they are part of that best art north review and I will write to him after the debate. I'm afraid that we're in a debate about Dr Gray's that's well over time now, so I would ask the cabinet secretary to conclude. I'm happy to write to Edward Mountain and speak to him offline and I will summarise by thanking Douglas Ross once again for bringing this motion to the attention of Jim Burke and I congratulate Karen Adam on her first speech and let me thank the members that have brought this issue to my attention. I will meet with the Keep Mum Campion group, I will come up again to see Dr Gray. I think probably after the independent review has been received and I update the chamber but once again reiterate this Government's intention to fully restore maternity services at Dr Gray's hospital. Thank you cabinet secretary and that concludes the debate and I close this meeting.