 Okay, so hi, Wikibaw for everybody. I thought I'd start out by just asking how many people here use wiki.wm.work on a daily basis, sort of singularly, if you just raise your hand. Some not a lot, okay. How many people here use Wikipedia or some other wiki like that or attribute to some other wiki that we're more maybe. I guess the main reason that I call this ball off together is I thought that it might be a good idea to start thinking about how Demian wants to maintain our wiki, maintain the content, want to just talk about other issues that there might be. I don't know if other people have other things they want to bring up about wiki or not, they're just going to jump in. One of the issues that I've seen with wiki is that we have a lot of content of lots of different degrees of usefulness. So that is just a list of links or big discussions about how things all work that never went anywhere or whatever. And so then we have some really good pages that are really nice reference pages and they're really good for organizing that call for whatever and we don't have any real way to filter one set or the other set. And I actually wanted to talk to anybody who works on Wikipedia and see what we can get and some idea of if we could apply some of the things that Wikipedia does to the Demian wiki maybe to categorize pages or something, so I don't know if anybody, I've never really edited Wikipedia, I just read it. So anybody has any ideas on how they do things? I know they have feature articles and they have stubs I think, so I thought we could use that as sort of categories and maybe another category for development page or pages that are under development or just anybody, any ideas? I have a comment down there. One thing that I would like to get started on the wiki is that we use subcategories because like for instance, all the documents related to Depthome 6 you don't have them under a subpage. Because then you can have an index page, it's very easy, like 1.0 into an index page that just gives you an overview. I agree. We did that with Demian's already, it took a bit of work to move them, so I haven't been moving the wiki's sake on Depthome 6 when we went over, but I think the Depthome 7 should start out as a, you know, using subpages. And that I guess surprises a lot of other. It applies to a lot of stuff but not to everything because you know the broader stuff that you might have to be in a hard period of time, doesn't it? Yeah. Do we have any sort of guidelines for the wiki or? On really? That's super. Yeah, yeah. I mean right now there's no need for guidelines or anything, just subpages. What I think is needed is a team of people that takes responsibility for the wiki. An issue I brought up on Demian's project recently was that public boards are filed against WWW, Devin Org, that concern the wiki, but as there's nobody who takes responsibility for the wiki as a whole, these don't get answered or dealt with. There was one reply from Joey Schultzer, who said, well, if there's anything really technical, Demian Edmund is the place to go, but that's useless for a lot of the reports. Yeah, I mean, so Demian Edmund. Somebody should filter them anyway before going to Demian Edmund. So the wiki really needs a team to do like meta maintenance, not maintenance of the individual pages. That's obviously not such a scope for wiki, but it needs a team to do meta maintenance and all that. Yeah, you're talking about maintenance of the content, not just of the server side. Yeah, the content. Right, and the server is done by Demian Edmund, right? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I put one here on the wiki off page. I thought maybe a wiki janitor team would be you know, call something like that, just people who were wiki as a whole, like the current janitor or whatever, and you clean it up and stuff. Is that people that go out and actually do quality control, or is that people that actually go out and tag pages would say, you know, this page is, all of these pages, you know, need support or something like that. This page is just a personal one. You know, it's a user page, we can ignore it, and make sure that all the new pages get tagged and there you'll be some changes, you know, all that kind of thing. Well, maybe, sorry. One thing that I've seen on wikis in general, I haven't spent that much time on the Debbie and wiki, is obsolete information, you know, it's, and you know, even worse than most web pages on wikis, somebody that gets interested in something, writes a wiki page on something, and then it never gets updated and, you know, like, so yeah, that's one thing the janitor team could think about anyway, I don't, you know, some of our wiki pages. I think that Debbie really expects the people that look at the page and think, that's obviously to fix it. Yeah, then get the janitor, you know, if you know it's obsolete, you should at least say this is obsolete, I don't know if this is going to help you out. Yeah, or maybe you have a category obsolete, so you can just, you know, say category obsolete and then have a list. Or just remove the page. Yeah, and the other thing that can be good is to put the name of the release in the page name, like if you're talking about, say, sound or something, you're augmenting, say, etch sound, so that, you know, when that's just gone, it's still around. Talking about guidelines, one of the things that I think means guidelines is the way translations of wiki pages are handled. Yes, that's something I want to hear. Because on one page I've seen, there was this huge title, saying translations with a bar under it and then French. And then there was this very thin line as a denominator to the main text. So it really looked like the main text was something that had any translations, which is totally useless. Does anybody here know how Moin Moin is supposed to handle translations? Because I think it's supposed to have some kind of support. Okay, talk to page, talk to page, it's translated. Yeah, but is there some kind of browser negotiation? Yes. There is. But as a page, I don't know. Okay, so you have to name them the right way, then, right? And then they go on. Okay, go ahead. There's something. But is there also a check that says, okay, this is a translated page, but the main page was a translated page? It's a wiki. Yeah. So there are all kinds of translators. And the way that the media uses is they don't translate things like that. They build their own separate different language wiki. They don't try to keep up. And I think there might be something to that. I mean, it's good to have the front page translated because that way we're going to have the starting point. It really needs to translate everything. Quite often you'd want to make a page to translate to this one. Right. So you wouldn't say one of the front pages could translate to the other one. You would look to it from, you know, however it makes sense in your language, not to. Yeah. Yeah. For the front page, the other reason I'm really interested in finding the quality pages is that right now, whenever anybody makes a new page, they generally just add it to the front page of the wiki. And we get enormous list of links. It's completely useless. It's half-liberal junk. And it'd be good if there was actually a way to just, you know, say, this is our criteria for putting something on the front page of the wiki. You know, it has to be quality or whatever. Or it has to have a larger than such thought audience. Yeah, right. Yeah. Maybe have some subpages for different audience groups or something. Entries aren't time-stamped in any way, are they? Yeah. There's a simple type of aggregation on it. There's the vise-vise that you can pull out. That could at least give you an out-current in any way. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I guess this could just be something that we develop on the wiki as far as guidelines for page quality stuff, ideas. But I just wanted to, you know, I was mostly interested to know if anybody was here. The other issue is the license of the wiki. It seems to be a complete mess right now. Basically, nobody knows what the license is. Well, I think what you're creating here is this thing called the QFTL. Well, yeah, yeah, a lot. I don't even care about licenses. Just the problem is we've imported all this data from the wiki.wm.net. And from, you know, we don't have any license statement at all. So, you know, there is no license. Then ask the question whether we want the license. Because we could just say, let's stick it all in the public domain and that there are people that are short-checked and they have to realize that they're on page. Yes, you might be, yeah, specifically that this is a public domain. Yeah, we'll say it. But we could say, like, we're trying everything in public domain now, or like, in six months. There's a problem with that. Some state is going to recognize public domain. Well, yeah, you have to say in the public domain and then add the paragraph only, please. So, exactly. But if it applies to the state, then you can do the same thing. Yeah. Isn't that really open by definition? Well, yeah. So, if you don't say so, the content which is there can be used for anything else. I mean, if it's not stated, you can just take the content of page and put it elsewhere, which is something I believe when you want. Well, that's the thing. You want to be able to do that. You want to be able to take the documentation page and then put it into any package or into the main website or whatever. Probably the best option is, says, okay, all the wiki that we have got is that public domain. And if you don't like these rules, just don't use it. That's it. Yeah. I mean, I think what he just has a little paragraph when you're editing it that says, your contract, you agree to your contract by pressing submit. You agree to your contributions under the license. So, if we put that into the wiki, we can probably say, okay, we know that everything after the statement that's the license. Even for the rest of it, it does eventually get rewritten or something. Only the changes. Well, yeah. But not the original content. Right, right. You have to judge by the... But it would at least solve it for all new pages, which is when things start, I know that this has been discussed a lot for what we need to vote. And so, all page would be an explicit license comment then? Yeah. It would be right. We'd have to build all the old pages and say license unknown or something. And a lot of them are... Yeah. We rewrite everything. You need to rewrite everything basically. We're just not worried about it until you want to use it somewhere else and then rewrite it. Okay. You know. There is also the point that actually most of the pages are so simple that they might not be copyrightable in most countries. There's a lot of really small pages and some big content. For example, the page that I created. And it probably doesn't matter that the DevOpsics Wiki Assassin's page isn't... You know, it's probably the main, you know. I'm happy to release, like, suppose I wrote the page before the licensing and the endorsement thing. Then I would just say, well, I wrote it. Right. And you could say all these changes are mine just for the tag, the license unknown or something. Actually, I could just go on myself and do it. Yeah. I mean, if someone goes into a, like, Gabby, you know, there should be three friends there and so on and so forth. All the licenses are accepted. But then if I see it in the blog... Yes, you'd see it for a reason. But it's very hard. I mean, if you do that, it would mean that when you want to use the page, you should go to the logs and see who was the person that removed the tag to see if it was actually the person who removed the initial contact. Otherwise, it was like an asshole who did it and you're not allowed to use it. Yeah, but we had this problem with anything in Debian. I mean, anybody can take a C file and drop it into their package and pretend that it's freely licensed. We, you know, we just had to do our best to, you know, try to move up to the license or somebody's trying to, you know, I spoofed that out. Yeah. Oh, not that, that's not that. Yes, that's one. One thing you included then. You should have license. And the, um, release the future pages all under some free license. So this is the GFDL. Some of the licenses. I mean, close to public. Yeah. MIT or... Oh, yeah. Yeah, so, you're not drinking, designing that company, well, for our nation. So we don't necessarily know who the people are that we're telling things. It's just not something that's set up on the count. Right. So it may be the people that get to know who the set up. It's good that whether it's got a license to get you on, actually, GFDL is authenticated or something. I don't know if that's possible with Wikis. But if you don't do that, then how do you know who's set, whether it's a license company or not? Right. I mean, we were saying, look at the change log. Look at the changes. Well, it's trivial. Exactly. So, yeah, so, I mean, you could be committing it or an assumed name or something, but... Can we maybe link, um, the Wikis with a year? Oh, I know. I have a central server, and then we can address this issue. Yeah. Because we have... I don't think it's... I mean, it seems to me that it's the same as taking a page from, I mean, a package from upstream that has a bunch of committers and the change log, and you don't know who they are. You have no way to authenticate any of them, either. And so you still just do the best faith. You know, I'm assuming people are real and they're doing what they said they did. You know, otherwise, I mean, linking a data log might be good, I think. You could do it. Right. So just as a way to not have to... not have to do anything digital and make a new account from a lab mess, you know, from a charity or something. I mean, that would be... Okay. They have to use one way and then they integrated some, I don't know, but the back end is much better. So speaking about a possible team of weak administrators or something like that, does anyone from DB and WWW has shown interest? Because you should also understand the separation of accounts between what should go on DB and ORB and what should go on the wiki. Right. So it would be good if someone stepped up. I need to know anyone from this group. Well, Frans and I both have condensed on the website that we don't use it too much. We've made such a quick installer. It seems to me that most, pretty much, all new technical development content that's going on the wiki now and we're not really using the website for anything except for release information and, you know, basically static content now. Yeah. It's actually something that I've been interested in is how much of what's on the website right now might be better to go on to the wiki. You know, something like maybe the developers corner or something would be better on the wiki. Of course, the problem is that you don't get translation and the website is really well translated. I think the benefit of the website is that it has a clear navigation structure. It could be of course but at least it has a structure where the wiki does not. The only thing you can do with the wiki is search, basically. And I think that's a team that manages the structure and as long as you don't have that team actionable. I prefer to move content that has matured in the wiki and that is obviously very fluctuating to actually move it to your website. Right. I think it's more fast to create a team for handling the structure on the wiki than discovering what is not fluctuating and moving it to the website. So if we can act with an action let's create a team on the spot to make a better solution. Rather than moving out and fluctuating to the website which is not necessarily what we want to do because something may fluctuate in things like if you have a page in wiki that you want to mark unimmutable for some reasons then it can go. It's probably some important resource that needs to be shared and touched. For example, if you can't redirect everybody to the site or something that you released so you don't change it but you could still annotate it that's not the case but if you have so many mutable pages that's the context One thing that I think should move to the wiki is information about ports not really basic information but the more detailed stuff is practically not maintained for most ports and I think moving it to the wiki could help with that. I'm sorry, is the mock here? Oh, there you are. I see you had an idea about something new. I kind of like this design of wikipedia about new displays on the front page it's like lots of content and I was thinking of bringing some of the content which is being generated by the Debian news guy which is probably in an official but he usually works on gathering information and publishing it so I think it would be nice to have some kind of senior news chart as the ones that are on the wikipedia front page and have the news item displayed on the front page that's it. May I ask you for the wiki front page? May I ask you why not deal with the news? I don't know the site you mentioned just to know if you have considered the possibility of using something we produce. Yeah, right now there is not such a thing I mean this guy was producing two news items at least Debian related, not always exclusively to Debian but at least Debian related and he usually works a lot and generating content every day so I don't think there is such a thing at least from Debian over or something so I think we can take his work and take advantage of it. I think you're going to get a good idea I don't know if everybody looked at the front page of the wiki recently but with this spotlight section where I basically just try to find good pages on the wiki and occasionally change to a new page so that there is always something new on the front page and also so that these pages get some exposure and it's good to have something that keeps you from coming back to. So I think this is a good idea I don't know if you thought about how it could be done or grabbing the feed taking the last details and then making it automatic some kind of mechanized script or something I think it could be a nice fact. Well we already have the Debian Weekly News mailing list that puts out news items possibly those could be put on the wiki either as the items are generated or you know or maybe even after the if I were to do Debian Weekly News right now I'd probably just develop it on the wiki and then publish it from there or something once I got the license and the shoe fix but those players from the weekly news aren't really susceptible to a sidebar they're more of a streamer Debian Weekly News is quite heavily translated though and there's a whole infrastructure to do that so I don't know how about the question who wants real? I wanted to make a suggestion there when you're talking about a certain team that goes out these government pages that need work and one of the things that we do need in addition is a team that we can contact for quality issues like here's a page that has a license problem or something and also then you don't write to www you write to the weekly maintainers and I think actually that if we make if we extend one more in such that maybe at the bottom of each page there is a you know a rating system like how good is this page 1 to 10 and then maybe some other information to do the quality assurance and then we only have a sort of reactive team in the background that takes care of requests and that makes just some migrations in migrations and stuff like that Once there's a team set up I think the team should just request a mailing list that lists that in order and probably a third package should be created for us which would then be forwarded to that mailing list that's the canonical way of doing things in that way I think so that would really see www from having that and if anything is mis-assigned they could just reassign it I'm out of this stuff I don't really have a whole lot I just wanted to yeah I was always suggesting who is interested in being the lucky jamper team your everybody I can do it but I don't have time to go out regularly so here's another question does anybody else have ideas about how the lucky can be better or anything are there any ideas about how the lucky can be better you mean from a technical point of view or anything you know something that I'm missing right now is something place because I think a lot of pages we don't do the same structure like pages for if projects or stuff like that for what now for example in the team we used to have a weekly as our webpage and then we just moved everything on the weekly and I see there are a lot of pkg like pages but there is no clear structure so we should go through the structure the first step I think is the standard template that links back daily I think the first step is creating templates so that who wants to create these pages have a template but more than that I don't know if Moimoya the wikipedia like template structure I don't know I don't know either so the wikipedia structure lets you have a template and modify the pages it's not sure if you holds any so when you work with a template you pass several variables and you can change the template separately so for example when you see all those pages that have a side bar and stuff and the second thing a woman can be like creating micros like I want a maker which generates URL to the bts or does it already exist? I don't know yeah maybe I've looked it up I'm missing one of my things so I'm just thinking a lot and the thing that comes to my mind is normal cost thinking from the daily website the website is very unchangeable gives the idea of stale and the wiki is very moving and they look very disconnected so a little bit of cost thinking you link from the wiki to the daily website probably but the other way around is I've never find it like you can find like stuff on this which brings the wiki near to the local daily website right and that was one and the other one was one could make a list of wiki recipes like if you want to not only templates the last we could say use this template but if you want like I want to have some project I want to have a wiki page about identity and package maintenance whatever one could have created with this thing and so one just goes probably from top to bottom and gets a view from this good idea one of the things that's on the www.devi.org that I think should be on the wiki is the list of packages the list of teams that want help and that's on the devian developer's part there's a lot of stuff on the devian developer's part that I don't think should be on the wiki like the policy man but the stuff with I think there's a to-do list on www.devi.org or something that nobody can add in so and so some of it's been done some of it's never going to be done yeah we'll go through we'll have a look at the wiki where they actually do that efficiently and since quite a while so they have like also the features and plans for when and who's working on them so links to pages of people or projects for doing it and you get their status as well or their main coordination is the wiki the germanese calls the next one to start the wiki so that justifies it that could be like a source of interesting ways of making a wiki for the tool so much stuff is it possible to say in the wiki okay this page can only be edited by those people like the release team owner of certain pages yeah there are acl but the tiny problem with disrespect is that the default acl which are suggestive pages can only change the configuration file more and more so for that people need to interact with the devian admin or whatever but yeah there is a mechanism which is quite effective I think that makes the wiki more useful for stuff that is semi-official but that would also need a good team that provides the backup for users of pages like that super responsible for pages like that sorry the access control stuff needs dsa to play with this so will you say that changing the access control stuff needs dsa or something feel free to have something about it and get it done other useful things comes to my mind is things to automatically translate one of the main threads of isl logs into more in my custom for wiki page which gives like a start to have an interesting thread and you say like is she going to be here based on a project or an interesting conversation on isl you say that so you can start something based on it and you could like take the isl log and have the draft wiki page ready and then you go edit and then format it but it's kind of like the little technical tool that you can't do to the right direction kind of like mail morning or I think when one has four matters to let you add like put in a block of a python build or something and it will highlight it and colorize it and stuff it has some way to have different types of stuff to do but in that case if you want to when it you have to right hand the isl log like in the source of the page you have the literal isl log and if you want to edit that into an open text you have to take away the format of the books and the reformer everything but when I as if you just come back to mine my cup it's fairly trivial to take like an isl line and make it into a paragraph maybe that could just be done as described and see lines in the paragraph or mail then someone makes the rest of the format but definitely someone who does this regularly but you know how to do it so I don't know if we actually have someone who has that experience I did it a couple of times to put an isl log into a wiki page it was very effective which was like that's a neat an isl and someone wanted to learn how to commit to an sdm and post it and we were like ok let's find a wiki channel and we'll leave you we'll do it hand to hand basically and then I took the log and then I reformatted it in paragraph and it was like a wonderful how to work with some version that's being used as the other very efficiently so that was great so I have a good experience with this translation and I was thinking if there could be some tool that brings that package maybe wiki helped us with all sort of snippets yeah the things that update the irc topic we can use that for more things the step-in developers right now there's a topic that may develop as you see the topic of the irc channel which is something serious we were talking before about putting wiki content on the demian website I wonder if one way to do that would be to somehow generate a feed or something that can be a feed of new or good or something wiki pages so are there any things that have been like this as good or something that I really don't know in another way you can link back to the website the links there are some but we just have a link from the website to the front page the website to the wiki there is one I think we can also move the content on the google summer code ideas to do or you're kind of helping these because ideas on google summer code was very well formatted now lots of those ideas can be developed or they cannot they cannot just be dropped at least like ideas for more people to come the spiritual drive I'm going to go put my notes on the wiki when I get done with this but if people want to come check by the page and make sure I'm listening that would be good and there is a page on there too I wouldn't make teams specifically new janitorial I would make it a general wiki that makes more sense and if there is some group within that team that wants to be a janitorial or decorated have a general attention right actually another thing that I wanted to as far as structure right now we have some pages that have a discussion page and there is really no standard as far as I am and I think that we should just use page name slash discussion as a sub page I think we really need to search for discussion there are several different ways to do that right now there are some discussions that reminds me that could be nice to have discussions like the php documentation or mysebo documentation discussion is not part of the wiki though that's like the biggest value of those documentation things is actually the messages down and sometimes they can be integrated in the page itself find nice example of stuff that really help and that you could really use that but then of course if someone goes and moderates those contributions but then I am sorry I think that seems not right getting stuff on wiki website is just going to be hard and then access you have to code it to one page and do it in a file that's why wiki would serve it for coming