 Welcome to Experiments in Digital Storytelling with LaMama and Culture Hub. I'm Maddie and I'm here to welcome you to the second showing today of Pandora X with Double Eye Studios. So this is a program, Experiments in Digital Storytelling that was launched by LaMama and Culture Hub as a way to explore emerging technologies and create a place for people from various backgrounds – writers, actors, technologists, game designers – to come together and explore emerging technologies for how they can tell meaningful stories and create and hold meaningful experiences. It was launched by LaMama and Culture Hub where everything is saying, how can this go online and be interesting? And the interesting thing is that these guys, this company Double Eye Studios, has been asking that question, how does theatre adapt for this moment, for this new medium? How do we still create live experiences with live actors with playwrights but in these different worlds? And Double Eye has been doing a lot of experimenting to see how can we blend the virtual world with a physical space. So of course that is not possible in this moment. And so we are trying to blend different spaces, blending a live stream audience space with this virtual space. It's a lot going on. It might look easy, it might not look easy. It does look like things, you know, a Zoom or something. You know, there's a lot of different layers that are going on here. One of them is VRChat, which is the world that they have built their own world in and are having actors work and having designers and writers work for. And then they're bringing those feeds into LiveLab, which is an experimental software designed by Culture Hub that brings audio, video and data together from different locations, remote locations, to create online experiences and collaborations like this. So yeah, there's a lot going on here and there's a lot going on for each actor. Each actor is sort of like their own technician in this moment. Of course there's plenty of support throughout, but you know, we're all figuring out how to come together from our bedrooms or our living rooms or our home offices, wherever it is. And tonight they're, yeah, they're asking that, but with a story in mind. And the story is Pandora X. They've gone to a Greek myth, really ancient story. So we're really excited to have Kira Benzing here tonight with experiments in digital storytelling. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with another work of VR Theatre with Krzysztof Gorbachevski and the Dream Adoption Society from Poland. So yeah, let us know what you think. We have this going on through HowlRound and on Facebook with Lamama and Culture Hub and DoubleEye. So there will be a question and answer section and please, please feel free to share your thoughts or where you're watching from. We would love to hear that. And if you have any questions for the creative and technical teams. I think that's, that's the deal. If I had a bell, I would ring it, but I don't. So, Kira Benzing. Hi, Maddie. Hi, everyone watching from wherever you are in the world in this place where we are gathering online. And of course, like Maddie was saying, we intended for this to be live in New York City in the beautiful and very cool Lamama space, the downstairs beater. We were so excited that we were going to be there and we were dreaming up this triptych of screens. And so now we're going to try to do some of those things for you through some live video switching through this amazing software that Culture Hub has been building called Live Lab. And we have a lot of video inputs that are coming in. We, our entire team is remote across the country. Earlier we had a moderator joining us from Italy. So we've truly been around the world. And like Maddie also mentioned Krzysztof's work that's coming in from Poland. So thanks to the architecture of the internet, we can now reach each other globally, which is different than how we've been doing this in New York. And I think that also makes it for a different kind of conversation that we can have together. So this is this part two of this experiment that we have been running with Culture Hub and Lamama as experiments in digital storytelling. And what the piece that, you know, we're going to be playing with is taking some of the things that those of you who joined us online last time contributed these collective ideas, these collective dreams and wishes. And we are going to be taking some of those things. Some of you had generated them in what we call the word cloud. We did this kind of live experiment where we sourced aspects of your dreams and we sourced the dream of your superpower. And actually right now, you know, we will be bringing those things into Mount Olympus where our actors are actually, you know, getting into places right now in the virtual world. You know, so kind of through time and space. They are joining us and they are just getting into their places backstage in that of the virtual world. And we also have a great chorus that's joining us as an audience in, immersively in the VR world. So those people are just getting a chance to learn their lines and practice these offerings that they're going to bring to the stage, which actually have come from you, our digital audience, from these dreams and from these photographs that you contributed. We ask those of you to contribute based on a theme, whether you've gone on a walk in nature or you've been inspired by something that was already in your existing photo album. Some people went on hikes in nature and sent us an offering for the gods and they're related to these different themes. So we're going to show you some of that and take you into this video so you can see what you all collectively generated and contributed. So this was a word cloud that was generated by those of you in real time in our last performance in the month of April. And so you can see this superpower that you generated was flying and I'll have you keep an eye out for that later. And this is the first collage that was generated by your pictures and this was on the theme of wisdom. So thank you so much to people that contributed their photos here. Joanna, there's a photo from you in here, Seth, there's a photo from you. Patty, there's a photo from you and we are so grateful that all of you contributed these photos. And this was a collage generated from images on the theme of love. And I know Trisha, who was in California, she generated an image here and we had an image came in from Mona Rye and her family. So thank you also to those of you who generated images around the theme of love. The third is about courage. And here we had some incredible images around this theme of courage. I see one here from Katia and another one that came in from Alyssa. Some really powerful images and I think you see some incredible animals taking some risks here. And our last is the most important theme, that of hope, which is a core theme to our production and obviously to the myth of Pandora. And some really incredible images coming in from here. I see one definitely had come in from Peter here. So thank you to everyone who generated all of these incredible themes. And I want you to keep your eyes peeled for those things in this live stream because what we've done is we've actually taken your two dimensional images and collective offerings and we will be passing those into the virtual world. And the Greek chorus will be offering those as gifts to the gods. So thank you for sharing your images from nature and your gifts with us. And what's been so amazing is to be working with these different tools while we shift formats. We're playing with cinematic ideas and we're playing in this virtual world and taking two dimensional things and making them three dimensional. And there's this program called Tilt Brush. And so we have this amazing Tilt Brush artist, her name is Sara Fin Huntley, and she has been creating art for us. And there's actually a sketch of Pandora that she brought to life three dimensionally. So for those of you who are familiar with VR, obviously, or you know, this program, you've probably spent time inside of your own drawing. But for those of you who are new to the three dimensional tools, this is a program called Tilt Brush. And we're going to take you to that in a moment. And then right after that, we are going to take you right inside the world where you will get up close to see some of our virtual audience members. And as they are the Greek chorus and they'll be presenting their offerings and then we'll take you right into the show and we won't hear from you anymore. So I look forward to taking you inside this world and first inside Sara Fin Huntley's art of Pandora. Greek chorus time to bring your blocks to the stage and make an offering to the gods. Are these mooners? Are these wild rumors flying? Can it be? Has my chance come again? Answer me. I, the great Zeus, do so come in. My friends, hope shall return to us on Mount Olympus. And as for the mortals, my vengeance will be complete. I'm going to be able to cast will. My vengeance will now be utterly complete. And down, down, down mankind shall fall. I will. That was my vow. Come and gather round me now. Come. Do you want me to cast together? I, the great Zeus, do so command. Satans of the forests and streams. News of Greece who give glory through song. Goddesses, gods awake from your dreams. Come hither, come nigh, and join the throng. This is. Did you think my vengeance forgotten? That your act, misbegotten and exceedingly ambitious, would be lost on Mount Olympus? Do you not recall the destruction and danger, the thunder, the fearsome bolts of anger, which from this, my very hand, rained down upon the heads of man? A plague upon you for stealing fire. A plague on all men who embrace their desire. And by that beloved object shall know a fate most abject. Living in fear, bereft without a shred of hope left. Did you think I'd forget, my sacred vow, that the passage of time would efface it somehow? Nothing is forgotten now. My friends, my friends, do you recall how we shaped the most beautiful maid of all? Like an immortal goddess in face, fashioned with all conceivable grace. Yay, with our talents we designed. A shameless nature. A curious mind. A singular spirit. Strong and proud became her well, the all endowed. Pandora. To wreak my vengeance, sharp and swift, I sent with you a poisoned gift. A vessel of inconceivable worth, to wreak destruction on the earth. And by this, your lily-white hand did so at my command. Oh, there we go. That was my will. That was my vow. Come, gather round me here now. Friends, here, join me. My vow, I said, it was complete. But where are we now, friends? Where are we? Pandora, I have not forgotten. In the last few years, and full of wiles with your seductive heirs, your devious smiles. Hello, Sarah. What are you doing? Nothing. You weren't rhyming? Rhyming, what? Of course not. Really? What I lie to you, my dear. What are you? Well, all the time you said you had no idea why Hercules was so strong when you knew he was your son. Well, all the time that you got Hades to kidnap Persephone, so I wouldn't realize she was one of your many conquests. I haven't experienced that. Or how I kept finding feathers in your hair, even though you swore you weren't seeing Leda anymore. Now, honey, we've gone over this. Oh, no, no, no. You now, honey, me. You're up to something. And if you're rhyming, it can only mean one thing. Don't be ridiculous. It's Pandora again, isn't it? Nonsense. The old one has passed on and her successor has inherited the box of hope. Am I right? How should I know if Pandora is alive or dead? Oh, you think I don't know about your dalliance with the original Pandora's granddaughter? I can read you like a book. You're hoping to go back into the world of mortals and seduce the latest in a long line of Pandora's, hoping she'll be so enamored with you that she just hands the box of hope over to you. She's what, your great, great, great, a thousand times great granddaughter. You should be ashamed of yourself. Now, sweetling, you know that the portal from Mount Olympus to Earth has been lost for ages. I've been looking for it for five centuries. I mean, it's driving me crazy. Aw, boo-hoo. Now, in any case, Pandora is the farthest thing from my mind. I don't care about her anymore. That's quite likely I did before, but that is all in the past. It is all long-forgot and gone. Ha-ha! What, ha-ha? You rhymed. I knew it. You only do that when there's a new Pandora and you're hatching a dastardly plot to get the box out of hope out of her hands into your own clutches. Enough! My friends and I were having a meeting when you so rudely interrupted. I ask you, friends, mere shadows of their former selves, I see. Their power and might, like my own, remain undiminished. Right, right, whatever you need to tell yourself. Be gone, woman, enough of your chatter! Oh, husband, my dear, I feel you're as mad as a hatter. No! Woman, I'm warning you! The God's supposed to think! Ah! Right! Where was I? The shadows returned to the fire. Ah, yes. Pandora returned to the fire. Well, well, we all know what happened, am I right? I sent her into the earth with a box full of evils, and I told her not to open the box, but did she listen to me? Well, she couldn't resist, and she opened the lid, releasing plates, et cetera, et cetera, all according to my plan. But what I didn't know was that that crafty creature, that sly little minx, had played on us a devious trick. Only later did we discover her that, that she had stolen all hope before she left. And what? Do you say the fault was mine? That I should have something, something divine? Oh, for Olympus' sake, you're throwing me off my stride. I mean, come on, how was I supposed to know that she believed me when I said I was sending her to earth with the box as a gift for mankind? And then she thought I'd accidentally forgot to include hope in the box so she slipped in the box and then trapped it in the box when she realized I'd sent her to earth with a box full of plagues. Oh, oh, oh, yes, yes, my friends, you are right, you are right. That's all in the past. I must look to the future and come up with a plan to get the box back here where it belongs. Right, a plan, my friends, a plan. But what? I mean, I've tried everything. Fear, seduction, pain, torture, chocolate. And nothing is work. Each Pandora has resisted me. And the last one, I mean, it was the worst of all. Tough as... Wait, wait a minute. Her successor is young, innocent, untried. I don't need you. Friends, I have an idea. A strongman passes and the new one, perforce, learns the ways of power in due course. But for now, weak as a babe in arms, how will she resist an old lady's charms? Well, hello, and hello, my dear. Oh, you don't know me, but I was a great friend of your grandmother's. Oh, God rest her soul. I wonder if I can help you go through her things. I know how hard this must be for you. Oh, no, no, no, no, you don't need to thank me. No, it's all right, but... Well, if you insist. Diesel keepsake would be nice. Perhaps this box to remember her by. Yes. Perfect! Yes, yes! Now, to find that blasted portal. What? What? What did you say? Oh, the temple of Artemis? Ah, but I scoured the temple of Artemis from top to bottom. There is nothing there. Wait, wait, wait. Do you say? Behind the throne? Oh. Did I look? Did I not? Again, all is forgot. Well, there is nothing for my friends. I shall have to look again. They're not my friends. I shall return! Oh, my poor deluded husband. Well, search and scour to your heart's content, where the portal has been in my possession these past 500 years. Oh, thank you, asbestos my son, for creating the means for me to enter the mortal world through my ends and my ends alone. This next part makes me feel so silly. Oh, my son, you do have a sense of humor. From Mount Olympus to the mortal shore, I command you, appear, oh, portal door. Now, let's have done with this Pandora business once and for all. So thank you so much for joining us with that experiment. We are bringing in all kinds of different camera feeds from the virtual world, and that is a real experiment to get that to you across the world right now. And something that our Greek course is doing in virtual reality that we wanted to do here with those of you gathered live is to express your wish for humanity. So we're all coming together in a circle right now and circling up in the virtual world, which is something we can do through these embodied avatars. And everyone is sharing their wish for humanity. And we wanted to just say for those of you on Facebook or for those of you on Twitter, please share your wish for humanity right now. It could be a gift like wisdom or love or, of course, hope, or it could be something else that you feel inspired to share. So feel free to leave that in the Facebook comments right now, because we thought this would be a special moment to gather and something we can be doing simultaneously in both worlds and feel connected through that in this moment. And the other thing that we wanted to share with you is that you who had all described the superpower that you wished you had, you'd asked to fly in our prior experiment. And so you have actually given that gift to our virtual audience, and they will get to learn how to fly for those of them that are gathered there right now. So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that with us so that we could create that that you could pass that gift on. And now we're going to come into a Q&A, actually, and wanting to bring Nick Fortuno back, the founder of Playmatics. And so he is going to start with my technical producer and kind of lead architect, Mark Sternberg. He is going to start with us and then we'll bring the talent back that you have seen performing through their avatars. And we'll join us in the second half. So thank you so much. Now to Nick and Mark who are joining us. Hi everybody. Great to see you and thank you, Kira, for the opportunity. It's wonderful to see the experiments continuing. And it's always good to point out that this has always been a kind of a stopgap given the changes to the world. And it's really been fascinating that I think this piece actually is quite suited for that in certain ways, even though this wasn't the original vision, it functions like in this world in an interesting way. And so on that note, I think the best place to start, Mark, is just to sort of talk a little bit about like what we're seeing here. Like what is this thing and how is it put together? And how is it possible to engage with it the way that we are? Oh, Mark, we're just getting a message from the tech room that if we can just unmute your sound, we're having a little sound feed. So thank you, live audience. One second while we all switch around, Mark and I have been running virtual cameras in the world. Nobody could tell, but I was the master camera and Mark was a moving camera throughout the entire production that you just saw. So we are all juggling a couple of different cameras and feeds and all kinds of things, which those of you that are watching, even I think the major broadcast networks are juggling these things too with everyone dialing in through the internet. Yeah, can you hear me now? We can. Okay, excellent. So yeah, actually, so we're using a program called VR chat. It's a social platform for virtual reality. You can access it through an Oculus Quest, but you can also access it through, you know, PC VR or desktop. It's built in Unity. So we've worked before in Unity programs and stuff like that. So you build these worlds and, you know, you saw the world that we build this giant, you know, floating island of Mount Olympus with like lots of supernatural effects and stuff. We built it all within Unity and using the tools from VR chat and some of the tools from the VR chat community to sort of give it more life and make it more special. Cool. And so can you talk a little bit about what led you to that technology and, you know, like what are the affordances of that that really, you know, that we really see at work in the piece. Like what, like what, like you give us a sense of like why that technology was the right technology for what you were trying to do. Yeah. So we did evaluate a lot of different social media platforms that allowed for VR. And what we found with VR chat though is it did provide us the most freedom, you know, like we looked at like rec room, we looked at all space. A lot of the things we wanted in only existed in VR chat and VR chat's actually just gotten better in the last couple months. They released something called Udon, which allows for custom scripting, meaning you can write your own code to do unique functions and stuff. I think you are learning to fly in Kira. That was a big thing for us that we couldn't have done in the previous version. But, you know, somebody in the community wrote the code, this guy named one awesome. And, you know, right now, if you were in the VR space, you'd be learning how to fly, which I do routinely and I refuse to go to worlds where I can fly except for one where I'm not defeated. So, so can you talk a little bit about about social VR and about like sort of like what what you how you think about social VR and like what what you think the potential is for, you know, like not just for the experiment you're doing right now but like sort of like what what your interest is in it. Absolutely. Yeah, I can start and then Mark you can also chime in. I, you know, for me the most important thing is that if we are having a performance we have to have an audience. And that audience I think needs to feel connected to each other. They need to be able to hear each other they need to be able to see each other they need to breathe together in some way and feel the presence of the actors, even though of course we're separated by some layers and Instancing and all these other technical things that are happening but there is a togetherness that happens there is a form of gathering that can happen. And of course we're stepping this up by not just having our audience be passive we want them to take on a more immersive role so we put them in the Greek course where they have lines that they can say they're bringing these offerings. There's many more ideas that we have this is just an early experiment right now. But the idea is that we can give them something active to do and that's just kind of having someone take on a role that's clear to them so the audience understands, you know if they're an audience member and they're meant to just be observing Then that is what they're doing and then you know we built a seat for them to sit in so they know that that they're in a more passive role. But I think that you know something that's becoming a regular tenant I guess of work for a double li is that we like to have interactivity we like to make things more active and so we're playing with those things and they're far more things that we want to do for that Greek chorus. Mark do you want to also talk about like the social aspect of a VR chat and being on a social VR platform. Yeah I think you know one of my biggest inspirations has always been Westworld and especially the new HBO show not maybe the last season but previous ones where you know it's this idea of like immersive theater to the nth degree where you're like in the world itself you know And I think that sleep no more and some of the other immersive theater pieces have done a fantastic job of bringing you there but the R is also capable of doing a even a different level of immersive theater because you know here you are at Mount Olympus. And with these avatars that are on you know godlike you know you can't really put somebody into a costume and mimic them live in front of you in the sort of same sort of way. So it's really affording us this capability to create immersive theater at a higher scale and sort of indicating the future of what immersive theater could be. Yeah so I think that. So can you talk a little bit about some of the decisions you made. You know because I know that this has been an evolving project right and you've been sort of thinking of specifically to your point about scripting. You know more of those kind of affordances to sort of allow not just to express like some of the potential that VR could give but also to you know like allow the chorus to have more engagement to allow like the audience to see more of themselves. So could you talk a little bit about like where you see that heading like specifically in this kind in the directions that this work is leading or more generally like what you're excited about. Well we're definitely excited about flying I think we've talked about that a little bit. And we are grateful for this VR chat release. So you know shout out to Jesse and Graham and Jason over there and the Udon creators for releasing that because that's something that we wanted to implement and that came from this collective audience element from our April experiment. And you know fortunately that was released in time that we could implement it. And of course it's always an iteration so you're just you know we're reaching and we're trying and there's so many things that we that we have on a giant epic imaginary to do list imaginative to do list. I mean there's things that we did in our last production where we could scale our actors in real time. And there were other things that we were trying. We also had you know an audience vote came in about how and how and a character could transform magically. So there are some things you know that we can pull off right now and in what we're doing but the growing in time is something that you know we pulled off before but we're working on a different platform with with different kinds of rules. So that's something that we haven't had time to build within play. So that's kind of the interesting thing is like all these different platforms. You know even though we're in the same storytelling language. We have to sort of configure our imaginations to work differently within each platform that we that we partner on. Yeah and just a quick example to that you know other platforms loud characters to be invisible you may have noticed tiny little cameras going around sort of filming the scene from different viewpoints. Sometimes one camera would capture the other in other programs they love people to come invisible but VR chat they've had an issue where people are becoming invisible and then coming on scaring people like right in front of them where they weren't expecting it. So each VR platform has different users has different history. So they've responded to problems differently so they've prevented invisible avatars which I agree with it makes sense. We just had to work around that by not having our you know camera people which is really just the viewpoint of an avatar you know be like a completely invisible which is how we used to do it. Cool so I guess like I think we're yeah so I guess I have time for one more question. So I guess what I would I think I really want to ask is like if someone's watching this and they're sort of like oh this looks really great. Like like I think there's some amazing potential for this form. Like what what do you think a first step is for someone or how can they get more engaged with like the idea of playing with what it would be to be like to have a social experience in VR to make a theatrical experience in VR. I think definitely the first step is exploration you have to see what people are building people see what people are doing in other worlds within VR chat because that inspires us a lot. You know when we saw the flying like there was a flying world that implemented it early and we loved it. It was fantastic. I definitely recommend it and that inspired us to be like oh this is something we could do and this is something we can utilize so exploration understanding the platform and its limitations and roles. Biggest first step because it will not only inspire what you can do but inspire you to what you you will do you know it's like give you story inspiration as well. Exactly. I think I mean unity is a you know is a basis for a lot of these things. It's a 3D basis as a game engine. It's free. There's tons of tutorials but that's you know I come from a storytelling background that's kind of it can be a hard place. I think it can feel pretty intimidating. I mean one thing is just to say there's room for all kinds of viewpoints and I think that it is important that we have theater makers and dancers and visual artists come in this space and don't feel like they're developers and that they find people that they want to partner with to help bring a story to life and that these are very collaborative spaces and the more collaborative practice you can have on your team. You know there there are all kinds of ideas that are coming from my colleagues that are influencing Alyssa and I in the writing and the scripting and and that it goes both ways. I mean Mark and I have now had so many conversations. I think like we've built a temple for Artemis and so we just kind of meet up at the temple of Artemis and we look at the world and that's like a usual thing in the last few weeks. So like right like we'll talk when we get to Artemis. So that's a kind of unusual thing I think when you're building in a more two dimensional sense and you're working in a more traditional format and it just being in this game engine enables us to live and see see reality in a different way. Yeah I mean it's interesting it's one of the first. When people would ask me like what if you're if we're going to go do something in VR what should you do first and like my old my answer has kind of remained the same it's like till brush or quill or something. Because it's the first thing that you do in VR where you really understand like there's no way to do this any other way. And then you have that experience of like oh it's not that it's not that weird that we could both be standing around this thing we're building and like talking about it the way we might if we were making some kind of marble in the real world. And that I think I mean I totally agree that speaks to that potential and I'm really one of the reasons why I think these these panels are interesting is because we're going to get to hear that writing in theatrical side too. And one of the things I mean if you don't mind me just saying so while we wait for the as we're as we're waiting for the room to switch. Like I think what's what's really interesting about this work to me is is the way it intersects with theater that it is it is really like like understanding that this kind of virtual reality experience is really a theatrical experience with affordances that that real world theater doesn't have and that that that we're using cameras and that we're using you know which is a more filming technology and that we're using like like functionality of communication through technology is different but that there's something very theater like about what we're doing and and that that that can be have a contribution into this new technology is I think actually one of the most important things about these experiments that like ideas of not just like the storytelling ideas of theater like character and arc and development, but even some of like the actual like practical kind of considerations of how theater is built come into this experience and I don't know if you want to run with that ball a little bit as as the as the as the performers and writers come in but like that that's something that I just find fascinating about also. Yeah, there's one thing that I think has been really interesting to explore and think about and also like occasionally just kind of feel a sense of frustration about is that they're these worlds lend themselves so well because they are three dimensional and spatial which theater obviously works on in that level to at the same time. There are things that are missing from them that we have in the regular world like the ability to just pick an object up and move it across the stage. So that that doesn't exist in a in a in a three dimensional domain from scratch right like that element of code and physics has to be added in so like flying is a physics is a form of physics that has to be added, like the ability to to grab something and give it to someone has to be coded so yeah marked at that. You forget that it's like, oh I can see in my version that I can pick this up and drop it and then you have to send a signal that you know the other user that picked up and dropped so show that representation for transformations and positioning on the camera piece camera camera like a person bees. And both right like there's things that we want from from the regular world from the real reality that we're used to that we need to bring back. And there's also these additional magic tricks that we get to pull off. We have two different builds going on PC users and quest users and for those of you that are familiar with VR you know of the very popular quest heads that for people that are new that are watching. This is the Oculus release that doesn't mean it doesn't require being tethered to a PC. Look, Nick is demonstrating it right now notice how there are no cords all the way around it. That gives an incredible sense of freedom for an actor anyone that is doing it. And so that's a store actors are on that so in order for them to see each other we have to optimize things in a certain way so that they can be able to see each other's environment. There is some really special till brush art pieces that Sarah has created, and we wanted to show them off. They're not visible on all of the quest heads that so we've kind of had to make some artistic choices where, and those of you that are watching the live stream, you know we're streaming from PCs. And I think that that entry point has made it really hard for artists to get started in VR. It is expensive to have all of this equipment. There is a sense of language that that may be unfamiliar like coding like understanding a game engine like unity, but that shouldn't hold people back. You know, this is a new frontier can be like Westworld. We can write new rules and hopefully treat each other better. We can share these skillsets with each other and I think that this is a time right now in humanity where we might as all well learn together and be on this kind of group collective trajectory and learning course. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think we're going to we're going to wrap this part up, but that was that was excellent. Thank you for what we talked to you for a little bit and I just want to say again like just try coding just try coding unity unity is great It's really easy people. Yeah, and if you get the recording just find people that provided what you need and just learn how to change it around a little bit. Great. Thank you so much, Mark. It was great talking to you. Bye Mark. I'll see you in VR. Sounds good. Jen Harris, who's playing her Jonathan David Martin, who's playing Zeus and Alyssa Landry, who is our lead writer and my major creative partner. And I give it to you, Nick. Thanks so much. Congratulations. Welcome to the other side of that experiment. Yeah, so we were just talking, you know, a bit about, you know, sort of technically how this was working and then that sort of led to an interesting conversation about like how how the technology has certain affordances and that when that intersects with something that's kind of theatrical, it both like bring some of the aspects of theater to bear like they become really valuable but also there are things you want that you can have and there are things that you can have that you couldn't have in the real world. And I'm curious, like as you think about this as a writer and a performer, like, like how does it resemble theater to you and and where does the technology like take you to new places or hold you back. And I know it's like I've asked a broad question there with like positive and negative. I did that on purpose because I want to see like whether your response to this has been more like oh I'm really excited or oh I it's so cool but why can't I is like more of your instinct. I want to give that to Alyssa and I'm just going to let the audience know that we are pushing the software right now. So you may notice some of us disappear and reappear magically with our powers for mental in this and also just to comment, if it wasn't obvious that everyone that you see on the screen, Jen, Alyssa, Jonathan when he may come back to us. They have all just been in a headset like they just came out of mental in this to talk to you now they beautifully transformed I don't know how they did it this is amazing guys. Just to get back to your question Nick. I think that it's, I find it incredibly inspiring to have to find solutions. We go in there we're trying to write something theatrical and realize very quickly that it doesn't really work and part of why it doesn't work is that we're all in different places. There's entirely different states across the country or in a different country all together. So often there's a sound lag there's a slight time lag. So, for example, I had written something where the Zeus and Hera are interrupting each other all the time. Well that just doesn't work you can't interrupt someone if there's even a 10 second delay it's it's you know, or even a four second delay. It really feels very different from a live experience in the theater. And so you have to find workarounds for that. Another example is the Greek chorus there is absolutely no way that the Greek chorus can speak in rhythm together. When you have people scattered across the the globe literally with that slight time lag so that ended up turning into something that was very fun, and gives a totally different and I would like to think slightly better version, but I think we had to come up with new solutions to the rhythm of the piece, having to do with the technical difficulty. I'm curious if, if in the, in like the rehearsal on the rehearsal and performance side if that's like if there's like a similar, a similar set of considerations like that came up like were there were the things where you were just like wow this is incredible. I can't believe I can do this I couldn't do this in the real world or were the things that were like, Oh, this is so close to this thing I could do in the real world but I just can't have this one thing and I wish I had it. Jen, Jonathan. Oh, there's there's totally both I mean there's, there's some things like being able to fly around and have you can kind of get like ours. I think you guys are both talking so Alyssa there's your scene was just granted, where Zeus and her I get to interrupt each other in real time. Here Jen so they can get to their so maybe we can we can maybe I can cue them so Jen why don't you tell us what you were saying about flying. I think we're both talking about it's great. In virtual reality, which is kind of great. You can. There's a lot of little things there there's some things that are great. The actual isn't present in front of an audience. There's something kind of relaxing about that sometimes. There's something forgiving that my body isn't physically in front of them but then there's something like of course deeply missed at the same time. So I would say my favorite. You were your question. And I also say that I'm being out that we are in the position that we're all in right now. And I mean how virtual reality is will and hopefully we'll even more get the attention that it always kind of put me just even faster that a lot of these things that we are able to do will the technology is not a sort of we put on the gas of the technology or VR and all of it so that you know because of the need to a little bit more speed forward to sort of the things that we do. We're all trying very hard to hear each other and Jen I think I think that your message was communicated through all of the time delays and sound waves via the internet and everyone can understand where you're coming from. And Jonathan, I know you wanted to talk about flying as well. I'll jump in. I'm sure whatever Jen said was brilliant and I won't say it half as well anyone, which is usually the case. I love that there is some very meta about our relationship right now that we can't communicate to each other and neither can our characters. I think it's just a whole lot of fun. But yeah, in terms of going back to your question about the, you know, flying and some of those. Some of those elements are great. Another thing. I don't know if Jen mentioned it or not but it's kind of wonderful actually to have the tech from day one. And to have all the design elements integrated into the performance from the get go as opposed to the tech process sort of later on which is usually what happens in theater anyway. And so that's something that I actually quite enjoy that you usually don't get. And I think that the things that you that you miss or you get you, you learn later in working in the VR space is being able to read your scene partner, for example. So, you know, over our rehearsals. I learned how to listen differently. But audio quality of Jen in in earphones to me as opposed to in a live space is different. The fact that I'm listening to her body language as her character in a totally different way. Then I would if I could really read her subtle facial expressions instead of reading the subtle expressions of her gesture. And so, you know, those, those things are, they're, they're different. And, you know, you lose some things but then you gain other things. You know, it's one of the things that's fascinating to me about this, I haven't mentioned this up to this point, but one of the things I find really interesting about this experiment is that it is kind of grounded in some of these like very Greek tropes, right. And that as I look at VR theater, like I kind of think I find myself going back to like very early theater tropes where I imagine, you know, I imagine the constraints of that kind of theatrical experience to people have masks are they very far away we don't have broadcasting technology. So there were these, there were these compensating factors to to the theater in its earliest moments and going through its history of like what can't we show or how do we, how do we build performance such that we can express when I when you literally can't stand next to me we don't have the intimacy of a camera, right, where like we really have to do that and it's fascinating to me to think about like, Oh, what is the role of a chorus and what is the role of certain kinds of movement structures and what is the role of certain certain kinds of monologuing or reinforcing that will actually compensate in a totally different way because we actually can, you know, if we want to show the battle where 10,000 people died, that's actually easy. Like we can just we can just model that but actually showing you how that I'm that I'm subtly grieving is is actually very hard right now and I'm curious and I know I just sort of riffed on that but like, I'm curious if that if that resonates with you, especially given some of the content that you were you were working with in this experiment. Should I jump in first there's Jen jumping. You can jump in Jonathan. Yeah, great. Yeah, I think it does I think that in some ways, as the modeling and sculpting of the avatars gets more and more finessed. There won't be a limit to how much we can express, even if we don't have really fine grained sort of facial capture techniques. I think you know there's a lot that we can learn from the way that puppetry affects audiences and communicates those very subtle and very deep and very intimate emotions that translates quite well into the VR theater space in the way that avatars can express themselves so I think there's a lot of parallels and a lot of precedent to look towards. I certainly it's something myself as a performer think about a lot in terms of how I can express something as deep and nuanced emotionally as I might if I was puppeting something on stage. It's been interesting from my end as we've been working through blocking and we we you know have run in because we're iterating all the time and we've from where we were in April you know we've really built a lot in this world in four weeks. And as you build and your and your writing code things break also along the way. So like we've made an avatar. I mean, Jonathan Zeus avatar has changed five times in the last week. And we had we'd found a really cool model from a group called polygonal mind and so thank you to them. And we've been you know tweaking and iterating on that. And we started to it actually up until last night Mark and I were still revising that avatar and we just kept pulling facial details off of it, like more and more and more. And there was this kind of interesting animation that I think is really fun. If you're playing with people in a virtual world but if you're putting on a performance where you want to show subtleties of emotion, and not through the way that we're used to but through a kind of a large theatrical format, not in a traditional way necessarily but in something that can have a lot of nuance like puppeteering puppetry, like mask performance where you don't have any, you don't see any facial movements move but it's done through the way that the rest of the body moves connected to that mask. We just kept stripping all this detail away until all he had left for eyes. And so basically and it's hard to get close to that avatar but you just see the structure of his face. And all of this other animation that was happening on top we just pulled out last night. I think to and you know I don't know how you you actors feel about this is an element almost of meeting to inject 10 times the amount of emotion into your voice and into your body language, because you know that you don't have those visual cues in your face. So all of your emotions are exaggerated all of your emotions in your in your in your voice are exaggerated in order to convey the the depths and the and the subtleties, you have to actually almost feel like you're sometimes perhaps overacting do you guys feel that a little bit in order to convey a depth. Um, I find. I was just thinking that, um, as we were talking about that it seems like, you know, it's kind of a lot like, um, a little bit of a talk hearing, but like what you do record a voice over there's there's a certain kind of pop in intention that you wouldn't necessarily do live because it would look a little screen possibly. I do it. But um, so there is something that is. Um, um, um, yeah, I would say that I would probably say, Oh, but make sure your voice make sure you're filling it. And with the fashion something that gosh I just will continuously getting used to and I can just keep doing it over and over and over again to get used to the movements. But yeah, whereas I probably would do like a great move like, like this. When I say lines, it does kind of read it read better in virtual reality, like something like this. I say something reads a little. I think. Although I have to say there are some really beautiful subtle things that were happening the other day and of course because we are running into all kinds of surprising, you know, tech issues along the way. You know, something like some mapping and things had moved and, you know, a platform will push an update and things, you know, change and then we have to respond to that and redo things and change the way that we were approaching them. So we just reblocked also a couple days ago. So everything is really new. And as we done that there was something that was kind of happening that I thought was also really interesting and some of the actors were finding these real subtleties and their movements and kind of really small gestures that were also really nice. And I think there's more for us to play there with there that doesn't have to be so big and doesn't have to feel giant and Greek and like we're in an amphitheater. I think that there are definitely ranges that we can be playing with. Yeah, I'll just jump in on and add on that just a little bit which is that I think, you know, one of the phrases that keeps coming to my mind with this is that truth knows no size. And that there is a truth to the story that you're telling whether it's, you know, in that very traditional kind of Greek playing to an amphitheater 15,000 people, or it's something that's intimate that's to a camera. And that there can be an equivalency of truth, even if the style of acting is very different. And I think that there is a style of acting that is unique to this and it's great to be bringing in the two sort of polar ends of the sort of size of performance in that Greek on one end and intimacy of a camera on the other and to be able to get to play along that whole range of both style, size, energy, intimacy, presentation and presentationality. I don't know. Yes, presentationality. That's what I mean. I'm really excited to continue to dive into that as a performer with this piece. And I think also one of the challenges I was feeling for you, you both as actors this evening because we were having technical difficulties and my Greek chorus, I could not hear most of them. So I didn't know if they were hearing my instruction or not I was saying can you hear me and they're giving me thumbs up thumbs up yes we can hear you. But I couldn't actually hear them so I didn't know if they were saying their lines or not I was like muttering my lines and hoping that they were muttering theirs. Even though I told a great many of them not to go on stage, I don't know if they heard me or not and we ended up with a whole bunch of people on stage. And so there's that element of live street theater where the actors just have to take into account. Okay, I've got people on stage with me and all right. And I was thinking of Kira that she was probably behind the scenes going, okay camera one move over. That's exactly what was happening. Really, really big improvisational side to what happened this evening that we actually didn't have it have at the last performance. So I think that there's that aspect to of we are doing live theater and we have to be prepared for the unexpected at all times. That's true. I mean, every, everything is live right now and I think that this is a real testament to what culture hub is allowing for and, you know, and, and, and encouraging with us as well is that you know we are live and so we are responding to things in real time that we, you know, we have anticipated but we're like, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're sort of inventing new solutions to those things in the moment and so like one of the things that had happened was my poor amazing virtual camera people, you know, we are doing virtual production during this. So that might be a term that's familiar for the VR world but you know we are running cameras and you know running them from a 3D side out as 2D feeds and giving it a cinematic element. And those are things that also you know we have, we have more plans to be playing with with our actors to but you know there's camera blocking in there and because we were maneuvering our cameras and real time around the Greek chorus that were in places that we didn't anticipate they might be like camera B and camera A blocking pretty much reversed during the show so we were you know responding to that and like flipping a lot of things around and, and responding to that on the fly and, and I think that's also kind of beautiful is that obviously I know there's something happening there for our audience in VR that wants to be there very close to them and that's something we're going to have to digest as a team like how important is it for us to maintain, you know we have immersive elements so do we also have to maintain a stage with a proscenium element. We had built a barrier that existed a couple of nights ago and we thought we'll take it down we know we know when no one will cross into the stage and then that's happened two times today where people have wanted to get really close and you know they want to praise Zeus they want to be right there next to him they want to you know disagree with their arms. They want to lift their arms they're they're getting into those walls so I think that's also something exciting for us to respond to. Well and that's, I mean, and that's why I think it's so neat that experiments like this are happening right it's not just because you know and I think I think if you come out from the technology side they're so understanding that's like oh the technology is new and there's going to be bugs and we're sort of figuring out how it's all going to work. But then there's also just this question of like look we have this idea of what performance is and now it's going to get forced through and not a new set of affordances which are going to like heighten certain things and reduce certain things and change certain things. And I think I think I think everyone's kind of said this in an interesting way that like it's not just these obvious things it's these very subtle things about what what it means to tell truth what it means to express that aren't going to be like bigger writ large or smaller writ large they're going to be different they're going to have different affordances and troops. And I think what's amazing about this work is that like we're starting to figure that out because we're because you're doing it which is which is awesome so thank you so much for for doing it and thank you for like being willing to talk about it afterwards and giving giving everybody some insight into like what what the challenges are and what you're learning and really what the potential is as we keep having to experiment like this as Jen mentioned it keeps being a reality we have to look at it's fascinating that people are uncovering these things so thank you so much. Thank you Nick for joining us and we're going to take it back to culture hub, I believe, or am I, I'm on the fly I might actually be wrapping this show out so. So thank you for joining us. Those of you that were in virtual reality with us that may even still be flying with some of our leaders in there. Thank you everyone that has joined online digitally and for your presence and for all of the gifts that you contributed from the word clouds those of you that followed so intently, and we're so present with us in April. We hope that you see that you have given that ability to fly now to the virtual world. For those of you that have your headsets get in touch with us we would like to take you flying in our world. We can talk to you more about virtual production and the future plans of Pandora X, as we continue to write and build this show and dream together about a better future and go to the culture hub website to find out what they are up to. They also have a great presence on Facebook and on social media, and you can see all of the exciting things they are running weekly shows which I think for a theater group is pretty impressive that they are so. I mean this is part of their language anyway they've always been working with technology in this forward thinking way, but they are bringing you shows every single Friday night and more on top of that, and encouraging all these experiments with artists which is a perfect time for us to be experimenting and innovating as we figure out what theater and future storytelling even means.