 Good evening, everyone. Thank you so much for coming to our event. This is our traditional careers in criminal law panel. And this is the first event that the Dalhousie Criminal Law Students Association is holding this semester. So we do appreciate you being here today. So just to give a little bit of background. My name is Sierra Mateo and I am a 3L student at the Schulich School of Law. And I am the current co-chair of the DCLSA. Before we get started as well, I just wanted to acknowledge that Dalhousie University is located in McMawhee, the ancestral and unceded territory of the McMaw. Here today and every day we are treaty people. To give you a bit of an overview of what the evening is going to look like. I'm going to introduce our wonderful panelists that have joined us today. And then we'll be jumping into a discussion about their careers and career journeys in criminal law. And if you do have a question that isn't touched on by the prepared questions that we have, please feel free to ask it in the chat and I will do my best to get to it. So starting off, our first wonderful panelist is Justice William Horrigan. Justice Horrigan is a graduate of the McGill University and Osgoode Hall Law School and the former chair of the litigation department at Vaskin-Martino. He has a distinguished career in law and public service, having served as the chief of staff to the Attorney General for Ontario, as council and director of issues management for the premier of Ontario, and recently as commissioner on a public inquiry into the Ottawa light rail project. Justice Horrigan was appointed to the Ontario Superior Court in 2009 and elevated to the Court of Appeal for Ontario in 2013. So thank you for joining us. Tonight as well, we also have the Honourable Judge Elizabeth A Buckle. She has been a judge of the Nova Scotia Provincial Court since 2015 and currently sits in the Long Trial Court in Halifax. Elizabeth has been the president of the Nova Scotia Criminal Lawyers Association and represented the association on many committees and criminal justice initiatives. She is an active member in several notable national and provincial committees and programs, including serving as vice chair of the National Education Committee for the Canadian Association of Provincial Court Judges. Thank you so much for joining us this evening Elizabeth. Next we also have Scott Miller as one of our panelists. Scott is Crown Council with the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, a graduate of the Schulich School of Law and a part time faculty member. His practice surrounds largely the prosecution of white collar crime, including fraud, tax evasion and immigration fraud. Scott has also argued cases at all levels of court in Atlanta, Canada. Thank you for joining us this evening Scott. Next we have Josie McKinney. Josie is Mi'kmaq and willostically. She is a proud alumna of the IBNM initiative at the Schulich School of Law class of 2006. After her call to the bar in 2007, Josie provided Indigenous legal services at the University of Ottawa Community Legal Clinic for three and a half years. She has been a Crown Attorney since 2011 and currently specializes in human trafficking prosecutions. Our fifth panelist is Paul Shepard. Paul is a graduate of the University of Leeds School of Law in West Yorkshire, England. During law school Paul worked with the Innocence Project advocating for the wrongfully convicted in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. Called to the Nova Scotia Bar in 2015, Paul spent a short time in private practice before joining the Nova Scotia Legal Aid Youth Office. His practice has consisted of youth criminal justice, family, social justice and child protection matters concerning secure treatment. Paul also sits on the board of directors for the Community Justice Society. So thank you Paul for joining us tonight. And last but certainly not least, we were joined by Sarah White. Sarah has been practicing in the area of criminal defense for almost 10 years and was first introduced to criminal law as a law student at the Dalhousie Legal Aid Clinic. Since then Sarah has worked primarily in private practice but also at the Nova Scotia Legal Aid and Dalhousie Legal Aid. She is currently a graduate student at Dalhousie while also continuing to practice criminal law and her graduate research thus far has focused primarily on sentencing. So thank you Sarah for joining us this evening. Just a bit of a disclaimer as well. You may see a couple Paul Shepards joining us here this evening. We do only have one Paul Shepard here tonight. I am the real Paul Shepard. So I guess to launch into this as this is a panel regarding careers in criminal law. It might be helpful to have the panelists begin taking turns describing your career journey leading from law school to the role that you play now in criminal law. And also no order, however you feel comfortable jumping in. There will be a sign in order. Elizabeth do you feel comfortable going first? So can you hear me okay? It's great to see all the panelists they I think have all appeared in front of me but I don't see them very often so it's nice to see them. My path was very linear but not really planned. Probably in first year law school that I wanted to do criminal law. So after that I essentially took every criminal course that was available including the criminal clinic. Then against the advice of everyone I only applied to article in criminal firms and got a job article in a criminal defense firm in Toronto. I went there for articles and was told that there's no chance of a higher back so I sort of thought well I'll figure it out after I get my articles. But I was able to stay there so I stayed there for about five years so I practiced in Toronto for about six years in total. I moved back to Halifax kind of on a leave of absence because my husband had gotten a temporary job offer here with this hours 22 minutes. Thankfully my firm in Toronto gave me a leave and I came back and started working with actually the guy that I've done the criminal clinic with here. And then we ended up really liking being back in Halifax so we stayed and I continued in criminal defense work. Until my kids were little I had two kids while I was in private practice which is a bit of a challenge because you don't have Matt leave I took four months with the first one and eight months with the second one and I decided that when they were really little that I just wasn't doing a great job with either my practice or my kids so I thought that if I maybe went to the Crown Office for a while would be a better choice I wouldn't have to work so hard. So I went to the federal crown for about four years and I really enjoyed that I really learned a lot, but it just it wasn't the right fit for me. I went back to criminal defense work in the same firm that I've been with before and stayed there so in total I guess I was practicing for about almost 20 years before I applied to the bench. You know, none of what I did was for the purpose of a judicial application because I never really thought I would apply to the bench. But the choices all kind of when I was sitting down to fill out the application they all kind of made sense so I had criminal defense and crown background. I had done a lot of legal education not not because I thought I was going to apply but just because I was really interested in I enjoyed it it was a great way to network and get to know other lawyers. So I never had a grand plan to apply to the bench, but the things that I enjoyed doing turned out to I think make me look like a good candidate at least on paper. I don't want to answer questions about any of that. But that's sort of how I got to where, where I am now. Thank you so much for sharing Elizabeth will get into a little bit later just about the work life balance part but I'm curious to come back to you, just with your decision to switch to the crown. Jesse, would you like to go next in describing your career journey from law school to where you are now. Don't mind the fluff in the background it's my dog who only pairs if I'm on zoom. I think he's jealous. So, I, my journey was unexpected in the sense of I went into law, because I wanted to be able to affect change for indigenous people my parents for both very politically active in the indigenous community and I saw myself, I thought I was going to be a politician that was what I expected to do. And I thought well a lot of politicians seem to have a lot of grays and the law is, you know, historically been oppressing our people so I'm going to get a lot of great. And then I just won't practice I will just use that as a foundation and when I started at law school I did very poorly in criminal law. I did very poorly just generally in my first year of law school and almost quit on many occasions and didn't quite frankly feel as an indigenous person. I was welcomed or or that I fit at law. But then I got a job with after my second year of law school with the pbs. Public prosecution service they had an end summer student position for indigenous black and ming ma initiative students so I went into that and really, really enjoyed criminal law, being in a courtroom never again never expected myself to enjoy litigation and being in court all the time, really enjoyed it and what I learned both. And at that time really enjoyed both the concept of both criminal, both defense and crown work, and saw a real absence of indigenous presence in that area of practice. And so I thought well this is, you know, in light of over incarceration rates. You know, over representation of our women as victims of crime violent crime specifically. I thought this is a space that I, you know I could make a difference and then I just applied for every criminal job defense or crown I could find across the country. And one that opened up was that was of the most interest to me was at the University of Ottawa community legal clinic which is a teaching clinic just like Dal legal aid. They were looking to start indigenous legal services and they needed an indigenous staff lawyer to create that program from the ground up and so I applied for that job I thought it was a super interesting opportunity so I went there. There was not just criminal defense work although that was a huge part of the practice, but there was also tied to the criminal defense work were doing civil litigation against policing agencies for unlawful arrest and excessive use of force claims under the residential school settlement process, criminal injuries compensation and tenant rights. And so we just developed, I just developed the, the services as the community needed. I coached their quest come on moot team. I did a lot of community development work and community training sessions, and just really, really enjoyed that and then when the project ended after three and a half years they unfortunately couldn't get funded long I once again through those applications out across the country and the one that piqued my interest was coming back to Nova Scotia. This time in in Yarmouth that was the Yarmouth Crown Office was hiring and I'd never been to Yarmouth before in my life but it was closer to where I'm from which is a new Brunswick and and applied for that and was in Yarmouth for a year shall burn for five years and then transferred to Halifax. And then eventually the special prosecutions, starting off only for a few months doing internet child exploitation. And then when the human trafficking and they created the new human trafficking prosecutor role. I felt like it was the perfect opportunity to combine everything I had learned so far. You know, dealing with gender based violence which is a passion of mine, as well as issues of race in the criminal justice system so. And then creating something new, which, which I had done in Ottawa and was excited to do it again for here so that's sort of where I've been in the last two and a half years and our human trafficking team has grown by three people and it's been hands down the most rewarding work that I've been able to do so far in my career. Thank you so much for sharing Josie. I know you touched on a lot of criminal justice and social justice pieces in your past, and I think we'll be getting into that in a little bit so I may dig a little bit deeper into into those projects of yours. Paul, how do you feel about going next. Yeah, it's no problem and just let me know if the jackhammering sound. It's a little too overbearing. Yeah, so. So I suppose I decided that, that I wanted to pursue a degree in law, while I was studying my undergraduate degree, took a psychology and law class. And I remember we were shown a documentary about a gentleman that had been wrong, promptly convicted in the United States. And, you know, they talked about the different lawyers that have worked on this case, I thought that just seems like the most incredibly meaningful thing for somebody to do, to advocate for people in the position. Fast forward a couple of years after I finished my undergraduate degree. Speaking with a friend who was who had already begun law school in the United Kingdom at the university and leads. I remember that they they had an instance project at this school. And, and so in my mind it was a great fit I wanted to travel. I think I was probably 2425 by the time I applied to law school so I felt like, if I wanted to do some traveling and pursue a career in law then maybe try and do some of those at the same time. Although, I'll be honest once I got there. And so much time to travel. Yeah, so, so after law school, or I should say dirt during law school, I started volunteering shadowing at the public prosecution service in Nova Scotia. Andrew McDonald who is the chief grant at the time invited me to come and shadow him. I ended up getting connected with woodburn. I continued volunteering throughout law school every summer when I came home. It was all on paid of course. So in the evenings I had a job at a radio station just across town, doing promotions and live broadcasts and various nightclubs and places around town. And I looked back really fondly, you know I was going pretty full tilt at that point, back as I do a full day. Maybe write Bruce and memos for for Rick and other programs and then I did my job at night. So, so anytime somebody studies outside of Canada, and they want to come back to Canada and practice, there's a conversion process so that's something that I had to do. I did submit all my credentials and I was assigned a number of exams. I couldn't read that before I could begin articles. So, I graduated, moved back to Halifax, submitted my application. And rather than, you know, simply continue to volunteer, I actually applied to be a legal assistant at the prosecution service. And I applied and I spent the next six months studying for exams and being a legal assistant to four crown attorneys in Halifax Provincial Court. And I think fortunately because of the relationship I built there, although I was, you know, I was there primarily as a legal assistant. And he still had me write briefs and do file assessments for them. So I kind of got the opportunity to continue learning while I was doing that job. Passed all of my diversion exams. At this stage, though, I didn't have articles secured. I suppose studying abroad I kind of missed it on on some career. Network with opportunities here in Halifax. So, you know, I ended up doing my articles completely almost completely on paid. I put it together myself spent nine months at the pps two months at Pink Larkin doing a little bit of labor employment as well working with Joel pink. I've seen the defense side of things. And I spent a very brief period of time at HR and legal services. Yeah, and when I finished that I, you know, I, again, I didn't have employment secured at that point I was hoping to get a job at the pps but there wasn't opportunity. So, I literally just went out and got a number of business cards printed out, paid my insurance and went down to the courthouse and I suppose most of my work in that first six months was municipal prosecutions. I had a couple of legal aid clients, a couple of per diem days where I would do cells and duty counselor. And in fact that's how I ended up here I just happened to come into legal aid on a day to pick up a file for a client and short term contract available here in the youth office. And I pretty much accepted it on the small rest of history. So, I've been practicing here in this office now for about eight years. I was transferred to the family law office for a year. She was a very interesting experience for me not having a great deal of, of interest or expertise and family law that I learned fairly quickly. And yeah, so my practice now consists almost entirely of criminal defense, although we still from time to time get involved in secure treatment hearings for youth and care system in the true area. And really in terms of social justice, we get a young person walks through our door that has a legal issue that we think we can help them with and that we're competent to help them with and we'll do our very best to do so. Yeah, so that's my story. Thank you, Paul. So Paul and I do know each other through pro bono so it's been really interesting to to learn your history, which I didn't know a lot about and I may come back to you in regards to your experience with family law and labor employment law. Just when we're talking about how other areas of law have helped you in the criminal field. Next, justice for again if you feel comfortable sharing your career journey, leading to the role you're in now. I do apologize for the technical difficulties we have. But I'm glad you're going to join us. Thanks, thanks very much for having me. My experience is a little different because I didn't practice. I was in law school. I worked as a probation and parole officer in the summers really attracted to criminal law. I thought it was terrific. But at that time about 100 years ago when I graduated, we all marched from Osgoode Hall to Bay Street in unison and we all got Bay Street jobs people were very few of my classmates who were doing criminal. And I think I missed an opportunity there because if you're at a big firm on Bay Street, you're not getting the kind of on your feet work that you get at a criminal shop. And I practiced there for a number of years, I went and worked in government, because I did have some interest in criminal law policy, I worked with the provincial government in Ontario, and dealt with civil forfeiture, we were going after organized crime, creating legislation about that was rewarding and I enjoyed it but eventually I went back to practice and few years later I was appointed in Central West, which is west of Toronto. The main court building, not the one I worked out of I worked out of Milton, but the main court building is Brampton, which is the busiest criminal law courtroom in all of Canada. So, I got a crash course about jury instructions and about criminal law cases, and essentially, it was two to three years of just learning on the job. And I loved every minute, we would finish a case, I would instruct a jury, the jury would go out, I moved to the next courtroom and I'd start another one, and we keep doing it. And I really learned a lot and I really enjoyed being in the courtroom with criminal law lawyers they were passionate, they understood what it was they were doing, and they were motivated for all the right reasons both on the crown side and the defense side so I really enjoyed that. When I went to the court of appeal. It really helped me, because we see a lot of cases where people are complaining about jury instructions about, you know, judge alone errors and I live through a lot of that and I was fortunate enough to have people around me who really helped me so I really enjoy the criminal law side of what I do, day in and day out, I think, you know, you'd expect that somebody who did a lot of civil litigation would be more interested in that. But we sit in weeks criminal or civil, I'd rather a criminal week than a civil week anytime. And I got to tell you, the quality of the advocacy from the criminal law bar that we see day in and day out is second to none. It's people who really understand the law there, get to the point, make interesting arguments, have an ability to focus on what's important. And so for that reason, I'm really attracted to the crime. That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. It's really interesting hearing just your story about the shift to Bay Street and I think similar to Paul I may circle back to that when we talk about maybe some parts of your journey that you wish you could have done differently. So thank you. Scott, would you like to go next. Sure. Can you hear me okay. I don't know how much guidance, my journey as it were is going to provide anyone but it may we offer a tale for everyone as to how you can sort of fall backwards by pure excellence into something great. I up until I was about 30 early 30s, I was going to be a poet. I wanted to be a poet. I had no interest in the criminal law or any law whatsoever. But I was beginning to learn by my mid 30s that I wasn't a very good poet. Around the same time, I was getting more and more into the animal rights and animal protection movement. And I had been reading a few books in particular by people who had had lawyers who had devoted their careers to animal rights law and I thought, I want to do that. That's what I'm going to do. So I decided that I was going to go to law school and become an animal rights lawyer. And I went and found some L sat practice tests and I did them and I wrote the L sat and I eventually moved back to Nova Scotia to go to Dalhousie law school. And, you know, I started in animal law society and got together with some like minded friends but learned very quickly that I had not considered far enough ahead as to how anybody might make any money as an animal rights lawyer, and I had a young family at that time and no money and nor did anyone in my young family so I like most people did in first year law school, I think and probably still do. I just applied to every conceivable job I could apply to. And I had some interviews in first year with some of the big law firms in the city of Nova Scotia, and I had a couple of second interviews and I went to dinner with one of the big firms. And I remember they, you know, as I'm sure they still do. They always have, you know, they say, Okay, well, we're going to call, you know, we're going to call the people that we hire on, you know, Sunday morning by 10 o'clock, you'll get a phone call if you're if you're in. And I sat around. I sat at that phone all morning and you know 10 o'clock past and then it was 1030 and I was still sitting there by 11 and it's this incredibly empty feeling. I don't know if anyone else in the panel has experienced it. I expect some people listening have and others will in the future but it's, it was, you know, a really a bad day for me that I remember really well and that was the end of my first year. I ended up working that summer doing some research for a prof. And then in second year of the Department of Justice, the federal Department of Justice hires their article clerks. And at that point they didn't hire in first year they waited until second year and hired us then and so there was another round of places to apply I applied there I had no particular interest in in the work that they did at that time. But I got an interview for that and I went in and they hired me. I ended up arguing with the Department of Justice they have a rotation with the public prosecution service in Canada, which was my first rotation as an article clerk. And I, I absolutely loved it on the first day. It was, I just couldn't believe what a what a great job this could be and how I think I just missed. I think you left. I'm not sure what year you left but it was a year or two maybe before I joined. That's not why it was good I'm sure it was sure it would have been good if you were still there as well but in any event it was, you know, I knew very, very soon after I joined there that this was something I really wanted to do. And I worked really hard and I bothered, I bugged my employers there to to please hire me back as as a first year lawyer and I was lucky enough to get hired back and spent, you know the way it is, it tends to be with, at least with the federal government is, you know, hired for on a three month contract. And then after that, you know, they'll kind of look around and see if there's anything in the budget for another three months and then another six months and I sort of went down that track for a few years, until I was really hard permanently. And I've been with with the PTSD ever since then I got started early I was sort of recruited into working on a large scale securities fraud case that went on for a number of years and was basically my whole career for the first six or seven years of my career was working almost exclusively on this one large scale securities fraud case which then led to me having a real interest in that kind of work. And since then I've been mostly able to focus on white collar crime fraud and tax evasion and that type of stuff, but yeah I don't know that I can explain to students this is what you need to do if you want to get into criminal law but what I found in my career is that most of the steps that got me to where I was were surprising to me and not necessarily what I was planning so that's that's it in the nutshell. Thank you so much Scott I definitely don't think your story is out of the norm for some of the students these days I always find it interesting to hear from them and what they had originally planned to do following high school and another in law so I think you will have some very helpful insight to some of our attendees tonight. And last but not least once again we have Sarah or the second Paul shepherd of the evening. So it's really nice to hear everyone's background stories because I work in and around, while at least Nova Scotia people and I, that's all new information to me. And I guess a little bit like Scott this is almost embarrassing. So before I went to law school I was going to do a masters of fine arts in painting. But I think I realized maybe a little earlier before I committed that I wasn't likely to succeed as a painter or to be an artist and I thought well I can do that as a hobby on the side. And when I was in law school. I didn't even take any criminal law classes, because I thought I was going to do immigration and refugee law because I've been doing some volunteering at the clinic. And then I couldn't get any articles. And so I did. There's a shared article thing that people are probably do more often now and so you do. I did three months in four different places. And I was still kind of feeling like I'm not sure really where I fit in. A lot of these, you know I spent some time at McGinnis Cooper and working with a really great guy there. But everybody seemed like not like me and really stiff. And so I have this day that I knew that I was going to be a criminal defense lawyer, and I was in the Dartmouth Provincial Court, which is like this dingy old building, and I walk into the Barrister Society room and there's this big group of loud women defense lawyers. And they're all like laughing and talking. And I start to listen to what they're talking about and they're talking about this client who had done something ridiculous and he had hooped a gun, which I didn't know what it was at that time. And so they explained it to me. And I don't know why. But when this happened and I met all these loud kind of outspoken women I just thought like these are my people. Like, this is where I meant to be. So from there I went on and started working I worked at Legal Aid for a little bit, and I was tempted by the complex criminal files I had some colleagues that were doing murder files and I thought, you know, if I want to be a criminal defense lawyer, there was an older lawyer that I worked with and he said if you, you're not a real defense lawyer until you've done a murder file. And so I talked to him the other day I did my first homicide file as like as the primaries I did some second chairs before that last fall so I finally felt like a column and say, I'm officially a defense lawyer now, but it took 10 years. I've worked at Legal Aid, did some stints at the Dow Legal Aid Clinic and in private practice working with some great, honestly all male lawyers, male defense lawyers that I've been working with. But I've had some great mentorship with them and decided to kind of do things my own way. Since the pandemic, it was really just going to be a temporary thing to work from home. Judge Buckle can relate when you have a family and kids at home that work from home piece and having your own practice I realized that I can work half as hard and make twice as much as billing whatever I was supposed to bill downtown. And so that's what I've been doing working at home. That's great thank you so much Sarah. I know that most of us definitely aren't unfamiliar with the work from home life but it's interesting to see how you sort of let that shape your career now into something that you're you're really happy with. So getting into some of the questions that I've sent around earlier. So just a bit of background last semester, the DCLSA held a non-traditional careers in criminal law panel. And that was looking at different people in the community who practice around criminal law but not in the roles that we typically think of like defense crown and judges. And with those non-traditional roles I feel as though it's more likely that people will see social justice and criminal justice issues dealt with in those realms rather than in the traditional realm. However, I wanted to get the panelists input and insight on whether you have a lot of room or what sort of freedoms you have in fighting for criminal justice issues in what's your traditional criminal law career. And anyone can jump in on this. If you feel comfortable answering. If we want to go in the same general order, you know, as a provincial court judge, it's limited. I'm not the Supreme Court of Canada. I have to apply to law. So I can interpret it and I can stretch it a little bit and certainly in areas maybe of sentencing or charter litigation, I can nudge the law in the direction that I think it should go, but I can't make law. You know, even in sentencing I'm constrained by the principles of sentence and the cases that have come before me. Stereo decisis. So I think probably in terms of social justice movement, you have more of that when you're an advocate before the court, or when you're on the Court of Appeals from Court of Canada, because they, you know, are more able to actually make law. If something new comes before me that hasn't been considered before then I get to have the first crack at it. But that's pretty rare. Mostly for me it's just applying something to some to an individual and trying to do something that might have a tiny little positive impact on that individual's life rather than thinking that I can make a stamp on the law in general. And I definitely don't think overlooking the impact on the individual is something that we should do. I think that's absolutely crucial in our society. I'm curious to hear from perhaps one of our crowns on this issue and how you feel you can, if you can address criminal justice issues. So the short answer is absolutely you can and you should. I went into, I'm a very much a systems thinker and I went in as I said I went into law to make changes for a marginalized community. And it really wasn't it's never been an option to not be trying to make change. But I think it's important to remember that these systems have existed for centuries. They don't like to change the people who created them lawyers don't like to change. And so, you know, it doesn't mean that you can't change it but I think it's really important in the early stages of your career to understand the system as it is and that was certainly my strategy and coming to the crowns office. My strategy was to spend those first few years learning the fundamentals because as as much as I may want to change everything in a minute. The system is probably going to be largely the same as it is by the time I retired so I need to really understand that current system and put out it and I also think there's something to be said about, you know, understanding how it works, all the different roles that are a part of it, understanding the challenges that everyone else is facing in in making changes and building those those fundamental and building your reputation to do that. If you're a person who is indigenous or black or otherwise coming from an equity deserving community I also think you need to take those early years to build your resiliency. And your reputation is even more important. We are held to a higher standard than other people and so being able to you know whether we like it or not when when we screw up. That is sometimes unfortunately held against our entire community and when we're successful we are sometimes seen as an exception and so I think building that strong base is really important. You know, that's not doesn't give me pleasure to say that but I just think it's acknowledging the reality, but since coming to pbs I am happy to say that I'm proud to say that I feel like I have made some significant changes in our organization. The primary author of pps is policy for fair treatment of indigenous people and criminal prosecutions is the first policy of its kind in Canada. Currently co authoring or co authored a policy with my colleague Dave Curry on a similar policy but for African Nova Scotians and people of African descent, and that's all about guiding crowns crown discretion. The role of the crown is to serve the public interest and I try since I started to deliver training on crowns to help crowns understand that to do that to fulfill that role we have to have an understanding of the diverse public that we serve. And I think, you know, for us to see changes in the come from cases like what do and now Anderson. The crown plays a fundamental role in that. And I think we have a long way to go in truly fulfilling that truly playing our part in decarceration of black and indigenous people and so you, there is absolutely space to do it. It is very hard. It is. It is very, very hard. And so, and it's a long game. It's a very long game but I think it is rewarding and there is so much room to do it and I, and there's room to do it in the in the defense bar as well I mean we all have to grow those. We're facing the challenges we are in society because of the role all of us play and the individuals that we, we individual decisions that we make. So, I would encourage people who are innovative and and think about system change to consider a career criminal law. We need lots of people with those big ideas. I really appreciate that perspective Josie thank you. I think a lot of us forget that a lot of times like we are working against the system that's just so strong and so set in its ways that we feel like we're failing when we're really making small waves that could eventually turn into something bigger so thank you. Justice Oregon I see that you're unmuted. So if you don't mind me picking on you next. My court is is primarily an error correcting court, and we're restrained in terms of when we can intervene in terms of judicial intervention in the lower courts and we're restrained, obviously by what the Supreme Court of Canada says. But there are many more opportunities to change the law clarify the law develop the law. And when I got the job I thought I would be doing a lot of that but what you learn very early is that when you're with senior judges we sit pounds three. People are reluctant to do that they're reluctant to decide anything that doesn't need deciding in that case. And there's good reason for that because, you know, six months later somebody hands you a decision you go what is I thinking right because I didn't anticipate the facts in this case and what I said was just too broad and they said well you know you said this is the rule and and then you kind of. So that gets that tendency to try to go too far. It leaves you probably within a few months of coming to an appellate court, but there are times when you when you don't have any choice right when, when really the issue is, do we go this way or do we go that way. So that is a very interesting time for an appellate judge, you have to be cognizant of the positions of your fellow judges whether you're going to be the minority or majority. And you do feel that you can, you can do a great deal for for the development of the law that you come to a decision where you think people in the future will benefit and it's terrific. I also had the same feeling when I don't sent very much but there's times when I descended on cases and I said, you know, I don't think so. I can't agree with my colleagues. We have a respectful discussion, but there's a point that I think they're missing or a point where I think I have a different view and you know, then we send it up to Ottawa and we see what happens. And that's that's terrific too. So, it happens for us, but it's not day to day it's not, you know, what you think an appellate judge do on a regular basis, but when it does happen, it's quite rewarding. Thank you for that I can definitely see in your role and also in Elizabeth's role to how it's definitely a difficult balancing act. I think that needs to happen when it comes to addressing those issues. So perhaps before we move on, maybe we'll just get some insight from our defense either from Paul or Sarah. I understand that perhaps from the defense side there may be a little bit more wiggle room to do a little bit more in this area but yeah correct me if I'm wrong. I'll jump in and do this one because my it's like a tension in my house my partner is also a lawyer, and he's a colleague a black and white lawyer. This is the law you have to follow the law and here's what you have to do. And I'm more of like, I don't really like that law, I don't think it applies and for me in this circumstance. And I think the reason is because of the client base that we deal with so I deal with a lot more chronic offenders and people who are in and out of the justice system all the time. And so a lot of our lots don't. Our laws don't work for those people, like denunciation deterrence, all of the, a lot of the principles that we use don't are ineffective when you're dealing with that group of people depending on who it is. And so I've had a lot of fun working with chronic offenders and trying to find creative solutions to problems that are not jail, because that tends to be the last result. When you fall down to the bottom of the system. It's like, well, you keep doing this so we're going to go go to jail for this couple months then come out and let me do it again. And then you go back to jail. And then, you know, I have one client who's one of my favorite clients who we did we did this for like five or six years. And so finally by the time we got to five years I was like okay that's it we got to do something else. And so him and I made a plan, and we had like a checklist. And we're like we're going to start. Ultimately our plan was to sue the Department of Justice, the province for mistreatment section 15 claim because he has. He's a disabled person, but to do that we had this long checklist. And so we went through the whole checklist and you know we kept getting the door slammed in our face at every avenue and we left because we got to the last one. And it was kind of the bottom of his criminal piece. And we were joking as a K after this one after we lose this one like we're going to get you some money we're going to start suing the government. But what happened was the government started talking to us and then they gave him some funding for a great program and so while we didn't get to have our big day in court. We were able to creatively solve that problem for that one person. It's too bad you couldn't do it for everybody but at least this one person that access to the resources that they needed and they are one year. No criminal charges for the first time in like 35 years or something this year. So, you know it's nice knock on what. So I told him if he stays sober for 10 years will get him a pardon and then we'll take him to New York to go see like a rangers game because this person really likes hockey. So knock on wood because you know the road to recovery is long, but you know, you do get to work with people that become very special to you when you're a defense lawyer and not everybody is like that but when those, you know when you connect with those people it gives you an opportunity to be creative and have lots of frustration as well but you know when you have success then it's really meaningful. Thank you so much Sarah jump in on that. Please, because I think you know we're talking about all this stuff and what I don't want the students to miss is how rewarding this work can be. I'm sure being a crown is as well for different reasons but when I, you know as a defense lawyer I've never done anything that mattered so much to people other than being a mother. I got a letter recently from the mother of a client I represented probably 10 years ago so just not long before I went to the bench. I got a letter to say it was sort of New Year's and she was reflecting on things. She sent me a picture of her son whom I'd represented with his wife and child living in Ottawa now. He has a PhD, they're all doing very well, and she wrote me this beautiful letter about how she was thinking about me and reflecting on how much I had, you know, done and essentially that she has a grandchild. So over the top, but just like what a gift that is to have that kind of relationship with someone even if it's only one a year that you, you can do something for whether it's as a crown or a defense lawyer or you know even as a judge I get that letter sometimes from, you know, from young people, especially that I've dealt with or someone who I gave a break to on sentence who will send me a little note or something. You know years after because they feel that their lives have been improved so like I think the people listening need to understand that pursuing this as a as a career is really meaningful and it may not be as lucrative as many other areas of practice that are hard, and it takes away from your family life and it's stressful and it's traumatic and all that stuff but it's, it's also really worthwhile. Well if I wasn't already sold on criminal law I think that would have sold me right there. So maybe just in relation to that Elizabeth. I want to touch on perhaps students that may be worried students who want to pursue a career in criminal law and really that's their main focus are worried about entering the field at all. Despite the fact that doll has one of the strongest criminal law programs in the country. What students find sometimes is that there tends to be a push towards more of like the Bay Street, or the, like the business law careers. So moving perhaps from the panelists if you could describe some of the benefits that you found in working in areas of law, other than criminal law before your role now Paul I know you had mentioned working in the family law division for a bit you know if that contributed to any of the skills or experiences that that you have now. You know I think the biggest lesson I took the year that I practice family law was that it confirmed that I was in the right spot practicing criminal. It just did not. It wasn't a good fit for me at the family courts. I think probably my biggest complaint was how relaxed the rules seem to be. And for me that, in my mind. I felt more uncertainty going into hearings. There were, you know, there was a greater chance I was going to be in front of the judge I didn't have a lot of experience with. I didn't know how that particular judge was going to apply evidential rules. Yeah, it just, it just wasn't a good fit for me. That being said, and building on some of the other comments here. It was a meaningful work. It is still incredibly impactful on people's lives. I suppose maybe that's another lesson that I took is that's really why I'm in this. I, I find, you know, maybe the word for it, but I like the spot that I'm in knowing that I'm having positive effect on the community that I live in, and in particular being a legal aid lawyer. And helping, you know, folks from disadvantaged communities and marital ask. And, and just kind of going back to that, you know, just to touch on that last question. I think that's why, you know, being creative and innovative is so important, because, you know, these systems are not built. You know, to benefit folks from those types of communities. But, you know, it's never lost on me that I'm in a very powerful and privileged position to help folks and to find positive change for for communities. Overall, though, you know, experience, whether it was, you know, doing work for somebody on a labor employment file or going to the family all of that stuff. Any experience you get advocating or litigating. I think no matter which courtroom you end up what, you know, settlement conference room, you find yourself in all of that stuff helps you be be better at this job. So, thank you so much for that. Maybe I'll get your insight as well just in your work, starting out in law and animal rights, and perhaps how that's given you some skills in criminal law. Well, I never did. I never was able to practice much animal rights law I did a little bit of volunteer stuff when I was in in law school. But, you know, I agree, for the most part, with what what Paul said and really more broadly that. And I guess I, I'm an example of it and Sarah's an example of it and Josie and everyone is to a certain extent is that you. You know, one of the things that I find makes people really good at this job is interesting and meaningful life experience. You know, it's, and I find this often with, you know, when we have our article clerks coming through every year or when we have new lawyers coming in. They have done something, anything other than been a student or been, you know, a one track towards being where I am today. They are almost universally better equipped to do the work and better equipped to. I expect to do any kind of law, but certainly this kind of law, and maybe family law would be another example where it gets so deeply personal. And I think just the, the, to bring some kind of broader meaningful experience to that is universally an asset. And I speak very much to whether having, you know, if you've done a few years at Stuart McKelvie that will help you to be a criminal lawyer. The cynic in me suspects not, but you know what on that point one thing that I'll say, as well as slightly different angle from from what Elizabeth was saying about the work that that we do in the criminal bar is. I think that the criminal bar here Nova Scotia especially is incredibly collegial and open and for the most part everybody gets along very well I don't know something. Maybe others will disagree with me on that but when I compare it to the, the, the civil side of things and what I know about the, you know, the corporate world. It's just a completely different life and experience and the people that I know who work in the corporate law world. For the most part, they're just not as happy as us working in the criminal world so my advice is come straight to us, and you'll be rewarded. I guess just on that point then for the students who do find themselves in too well and articulating roles in the corporate world. Would you have any advice for them to gain experiences or to ask for different projects. If their goal is to eventually move into the criminal law. Is that directed at me Sierra or, or if you want to answer it. Well, I, in terms of if you're already in law school. You know one of the things that and I'm sure I'm certainly not the first one to say this. I know everybody hears it all the time but do the legal aid clinic or do the criminal clinic. There was nothing. Nothing at law school for me that even remotely approached the rewarding experience that the that the Dow legal aid clinic was for me. You know, it really was by a wide margin the most rewarding thing that I did at the school the most memorable thing that I did at the school and the thing that actually taught me some real things about how to be a lawyer in a way that no class did. But, you know, other than that, I mean, I guess, you know if you don't end up and I know it, you know if you if you come to the end of law school and you don't end up with an article in position or you don't end up with something. And you haven't, you know, you're you're someone like many people who have come, you know, straight up through high school and undergrad and straight to law school. Get out and do something else, you know, I really do think that that the breadth of experience and it's obviously, you know, incredibly easy thing for me to say at this stage in my career, you know, now that you've just come out of law school and you don't have a job and you have $60,000 in student loan debt. Why don't you go see the world, you know, but I do really think that, you know, any kind of sort of broad life experience is a really good, a real benefit and to the extent that you can get that in law school one area where you can do that is in the clinics and the legal aid clinic is the one I did. I've heard great things about criminal clinics. And I think there are a couple more now that that didn't exist at the time but I'm very, very, very, very highly recommend them. I would also say like for for folks who may not already know this for the students. The the Schulich Law School has a number of different internship programs where you if you find the person who will supervise you or take you down will pay your salary for the summer. It didn't really existed until a young, a young person, I shouldn't say young person like a student. Cold emailed me out of the blue and said I want to do an internship doing human trafficking and come work for you and you don't have to pay anything. I was like well pps will like the sounds of that. And yes, you can do it and she did all of the paperwork to do it and and came and worked with us for a summer and I, you know, did took her on every human trafficking thing I could think of to take her to and. And I've also had students who who couldn't find articulating positions right away. You know reach out to people. You know that it's amazing how many of us can get to know people and if you're volunteering and I again I hate to even say that because I know times are tough and pushing costs of fortune. But I've had people who just have said can I just come and shadow at court. You know I don't have a job for the summer yet. And I just want to get experience and have come and then I will reach out to people I know to try to help that person find jobs and I can actually attest to their, to their skills and and I mean I'm going to give the most amazing reference to someone who is that team to work in that area. So there are there are lots of different creative ways, but at the end of the day, as Scott was saying like, you know, just, you know, do something, get a job doing anything and and pay your bills. You know, find something to keep you keep you going and it will turn up in it and so what I would say is I don't know how if every area of law will be useful to criminal law, but it won't exclude you from criminal law. I have so many colleagues who have come from civil practice and or solicitor work. They have turned out to be great crime attorneys and or great defense lawyers. So it just wanted it won't exclude you from that role. You just need to get it done you just need to get your articles you just need to get those basic requirements done and, and you'll figure it out from there I can, I can tell you that you will. And I really think that that's a testament to the collegiality of the bar here in Nova Scotia, even in just my three years of law school. You see the same names coming through, you build the connections and people do really look out for each other here so it's been really nice to learn. Here I know that you have to jump off in a couple of minutes so perhaps do you want to offer some closing thoughts about your career, maybe in terms of work life balance and if that's achievable. My career, my career is just getting started. I still feel like a baby lawyer. This really great senior woman lawyer is now retired told me one time she said zero to five, you just running around you don't know anything. And then she said five to 15 like you get this weird confidence and you think you know everything right so I like that I'm, I'm not actually living there but I'm feeling a little bit more confidence, but then she said you know 15 plus you realize you don't know. So, law is a marathon. It's not a race. It's a long game. You know, if you want to have a family. There comes a point where you realize, you know, being Marie Hennan, and having your kids also be in bail court is probably not going to be great. So like you got to put some time in to raise those humans if you're going to have them. And that's, you know, not everybody does that but that's the situation that I'm in and so if you can make it work there. There is a point. And when you're have a family that you have to focus less on career and more on family, unless you have a wonderful partner or person who's going to stay home and can do that which so many people do have and those people are lucky. I don't have one of those. So work life balance before I the pandemic really changed my perspective on this and so you know that was hard for a lot of people but for our family. We kind of had this realization of why are we both, you know, working these 80 hour weeks and not spending enough time with these humans that we have created. I think was kind of a nice circuit breaker, and that's changed my perspective on things now now I think I'm doing my masters I'm looking long game in law for me I anticipate I'm going to have to do this for the next 20 to 30 more years. I think, you know, you have to always be learning and always trying to keep your eyes open and realize that even at, you know, as a judge of the court of appeal and there's probably lots of things that you feel you learn new things every day. And so, it's a really fun and rewarding career criminal law. I love it. You have to love it to do it because if you don't, you'll be miserable. And so. If you if you love it you're going to have a very rewarding and long career it's not going to happen fast. I think that's the most frustrating thing when you come out of law school because probably all of you in law school. Everybody's very intelligent and you've been succeeding all the way through high school and university that you get to law school, and then you get dumped in practice and you realize you're at the bottom of the pile. And it doesn't take like one or two years to get really good it takes like 20 years to get good. So it's a long game and just enjoy it and take your time and take in what you can and have a life outside of law to, because there's more to life than law so good luck everyone. That's all I got. I've got a bunch of 11 year old girls out there like yelling like they want me to go out and coach them basketball so you know you can do both all of those things. Thank you so much for joining us today Sarah I really appreciate your insight. Thank you very much for having me. And Elizabeth it looked like you wanted to jump in. Did you want to go back to perhaps the benefits of working in areas other than criminal law for students, or maybe a comment on the work life balance possibilities. I don't have much to say about working in other areas because I've never done that. I've only ever done criminal law. But I would echo what other people say just get yourself into court or on your feet, whether it's in front of a tribunal, do whatever you have to do to get comfortable speaking in front of people. And this has nothing to do with the question but take evidence in law school. It should be a mandatory course if you want to be a litigator if you want to be a criminal lawyer, take evidence, take evidence, take it twice. Read the book. Work life balance is tough I mean I'm, I'm at a different stage of my life my kids are both in university doesn't mean that they don't require my attention from time to time but it's not the same. So, when I first started in Toronto I didn't have kids, and so work life balance, like work was kind of my life I know that sounds sad but my friends were crowns and defense we had a fantastic time like I didn't begrudge the hours because it was all so exciting like, if I was asked to, you know spend the weekend trying to find a bite mark expert to me that was just, oh my God I can't believe I'm doing this. It felt like a dream. You know every day I walked into Old City Hall I felt like, I don't know I felt like I was on TV. I loved it. It's harder once you have kids and if you want to do private practice. I was, you know you don't have pay vacations you don't have sick time. When I was practicing when I moved back to Halifax there weren't, I think I was the only, there was one other woman in private practice in Halifax. There were female crowns and female legal aid lawyers but there was only one other woman in private practice she's now on the Court of Appeal and Nova Scotia but when she got appointed. Anybody I could really talk to about how to, how to do all that. So I had, you know I had backups to my backups to my backups because if the kids were sick and couldn't go to school or you know we had a in home care if the nanny was sick. I couldn't not go to work. It's just not an option or like it wasn't at that time I couldn't imagine. Contacting the court and saying I'm sorry I can't do that trial. My kids sick it just it's not an option. So if you're going to do it and you're going to have children, you're going to have to figure out some way to make all that work because especially as a defense lawyer if you've got a client. You don't have to have their trial. You know maybe they're in custody or something so you do have to work that out. I'd be interested in hearing what some of the younger lawyers have to say because maybe it's changed a bit maybe there's better models out there now I don't know. I found this this year to be or I should say this this last year since we've been back. I've got to two young children to and for my wife works in healthcare. The balance has been really tough because there's so much. There's so much sickness out there. There are only so many sick days for people. Yeah but but judge buckles right I mean you really do need to find that balance I mean having hope none of this discourages anybody from from from having a family it's extremely rewarding to do. But I think such buckle pointed out there it's, you know, very important issues in people's lives that you're going to be dealing with if somebody is in custody. And, you know, for example, you had a sick kid like, you know, you would have to, I think you would probably have to figure out a solution or at least try very hard to do so. I'm fortunate. You know, my wife works in healthcare she does have some sick time we're able to balance things. I'm also fortunate that I've, you know, I work with a wonderful office full of other lawyers who who who can step in assist from time to time. But it is definitely a challenge but but you know, not so much a challenge that you know that should discourage anybody from trying to have a family and do this work as well. I don't have kids I'm not a kid person but I would say when you're first starting out in criminal law that I don't think you should have an expectation for client balance and again that's not to discourage anyone from doing it but to in my view and this is just my opinion but to meet your ethical duty of competence in criminal law. And so, you know, this is the province of Marshall and so that to me weighs heavily on on the decisions that I make and what I do and and then also public safety and the impact you could have on a case for a complainant or a witness and but I never I get like I'm the same as judge buckle like those first. When I started as a. It was different when I was a defense or working at the clinic because that is just a different environment I would say, then I think working as a legal aid lawyer, or someone in private practice, and then as a crown like you're carrying 200 to 300 cases and so I read every case, every piece of disclosure to try to think about every legal issue when you're starting out like you know, nothing like it's, I can't emphasize enough, a little, I knew when I started and I just, I just lived at the office but judge buckle was saying I just every day was like this is the coolest thing like I cannot even believe that this is my job that you know something would happen in court I was like this is wild like, you know, this is, this is everything I could have ever expected to be so was worth it. But it was there was no, I mean, again, similar like your friends are the people that you're working with and you know start off as a crown in your myth and so my, my friends were you know other crowns defense lawyers court clerks, sheriffs like the people in a small community are really really close but you know, it's so in the beginning I feel like I had, it was all work with, with a small social life, and then it got a little bit better after those first three, three years. But I agree with what Sarah was saying I don't know who told her that but that is bang on I feel like I knew nothing for the first five years, then I felt like I got a little bit more confident. I'm at the 15 year mark and I've never been less confident in my career. And I think it's just because I realized how little I really do know like I, like, you know it's so I had, I feel like a good work life balance like for a couple of years. And I'm sort of back to. It's just so it's a lot, I think, but I, it's, it is so interesting it is so rewarding, it is all of the things in society is coming together and I and I when you're doing provincial court, you know provincial court is the people's court and it's. I think what I like to do with them is, you know, provincial courts are community centers, their workplaces in their classrooms, it's where everything is happening and I can't imagine a more interesting place to be in the practice of law. So I don't regret any 80 hour week, any 20 hour day. Don't regret any of it. It's been, it's been a blast. I, I feel as though a lot of students sort of have somewhat of an understanding that you don't enter law to have, you know, all the free time in the world outside of work. But it is nice to hear that if you are in something that you're passionate about that it does help with that balance. Next one, Justice Huergen, I am curious to hear if there's any contrast between yourself and Elizabeth's roles in terms of this issue. Well, I would just, I don't have the experience of practicing criminal law, but let me give you the Bay Street experience. The funny was, Sarah said that she's going to go coach basketball because I did that for my son when I was a judge, but there was no way I could do that at Bay Street. At Bay Street, you have a certain amount of hours that you have to build. Everybody does. As a partner, you have to bring in work constantly. You have to collect on that work constantly. They expect you to be engaged and involved in the legal community. They expect you to be engaged and involved in the greater community. I can tell you, it's not conducive to a work-life balance or raising kids at all. So when my kids were at law school age, talk about how great it is to be a lawyer, my wife always says, yeah, you don't remember when dad was working 20-hour days. You don't remember when he couldn't go to this and he couldn't go to that. So, you know, I don't want to discourage people from practicing law, but I want them to be realistic and know that they have to make a decision about what's important to them. They should do this for the money. We live in a country where you get to a certain amount of money and the government takes over half of it anyway. So, you know, these people who think they can go to Bay Street to make $2 million, yeah, there are people who do. You know, not many though. There are a lot of people who are struggling year in and year out to get clients to do work and they're doing work that they hate. It's just not worth it, right? And the end of your career to be in a position where, you know, you put a few bucks away, maybe a little bit more than you've done something else, but hated every minute of it and didn't get a chance to see your kids as much as you should have. Well, that's no choice at all. So I always tell students, what are you passionate about? Don't worry about the money. The money will sort itself out. You get more money, you'll pay more taxes, you'll buy more stuff. None of it will give you satisfaction. What is it you want to do? What is it you're passionate about? You know, the people who go to law school generally are very smart. They have keen interests in things and that's what they have to develop. If that's criminal law, great. You make money from it, great. But if you just, you know, provide for you and your family and you do something you find rewarding, to me that's infinitely better than, you know, chasing the next cottage in Muskoka or the next Mercedes model and all of that. And I know this sounds right, but it's something that I have learned over time. And a lot of us go from law school into the profession. We're very naive. We don't understand how it works. We don't understand the reality of the situation from an economic point of view. And I think people just really need to think hard about what it is they're passionate about and do that, put the money aside. And if you're doing that and you're happy, you find a way to make it work for your family. But you never give up family and passion just for money. That's a lesson that I say to my kids all the time. And sometimes they listen to me, not often, but sometimes they do. So we'll see. Can I just chime in on this sort of practical world of criminal law. So, unlike Justice Horgan's experience, criminal lawyers for the most part are not hired and paid a salary. And that's a reality I think that a lot of law students aren't aware of and it's scary. So for instance, I was hired as an articling student and I was paid to be an articling student that's great I didn't make as much as my friends on Bay Street, but I didn't work as hard either I didn't have the billing targets that they had, and I had a lot more fun I think. But after articles for the most part, if you even if you join a firm as an in an association which is what I did I had a job, but I was paid essentially a percentage of my billings. In my first year I was paid basically a base I was kind of given it like a guaranteed draw that would cover my rent in my car. But what I earned was entirely dependent on what I did and the bills I collected so percentage of collected bills. And that's a really scary thought for a lot of people and if you've got student debt which I had it's really frightening. I don't think there's many other options out there so if you don't, unless you're going to work for the crown or legal aid office like we have in Nova Scotia because Ontario doesn't have a legal aid clinic system. You're going to have to probably work on that kind of model. The great thing about it is that if you work hard enough, you can earn a lot of money. And you can decide what you need to live, and you're not it's not a billing target somebody else is setting for you. So that but that's a practical thing because I know when I've tried to get associates to kind of work for me when I was at a different stage of my career. It was very hard to find anyone who was prepared to work on percentage of buildings it's too scary. I just want to pause and say that this has been really helpful just in terms of getting practical advice. And I do find it interesting, just as we were talking about finding your passion, just the thought of when we're growing up and when we're younger we're often asked like what do you want to do make sure you follow your dreams. And then that conversation sort of stops when you start university I find and it's the goal is to find a job the goal is to pay off your debt. So I really appreciate that in my last year of law school I'm getting this advice from a scene panelists who are telling me like do what you're passionate about. And don't just do it for the money. So I think that's really refreshing so thank you all for that. I do have a question that wasn't in the prepared question so I apologize if this takes you off guard I'm just curious to see how each of you feel. How each of you approach an issue that comes before you where you might not agree, but it is your duty as a lawyer to to push for that I know that comes up in different contexts, sort of defending or prosecuting an issue that you might not necessarily agree with. This is somewhat personal for me as I'll be working in an area of child protection that sort of goes against the social justice work I've been doing a child protection so almost to get a background for myself. I think it happens all the time as a defense lawyer I mean this is going to sound really. Well I'm just going to say it, you know, nobody agrees with child abuse or, you know, or sexual assault or murder or rape but you, you defend those people all the time that's your job. So you, you're defending a principal, and you're defending the rule of law and the right to a fair trial and all of those things. So, if you don't truly believe in those things. Don't be a criminal lawyer. I think that includes don't be a crown so if you don't really really really believe in the presumption of innocence and the requirement for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Because it's going to destroy you and if you become a crown and you don't believe in it, you're going to feel like you're losing all the time, and you're not going to understand why and it's going to feel like you're beating your head against a wall. But if you believe in it, then you don't ever lose because you go into court and justice is done right. I think when you go into career in law, you have to appreciate that it's not a perfect system, right, but it's better than everything else. Right. And so, I didn't do criminal work but in civil side, I acted for a bunch of big corporations that I feel great at the end of the day, you know, with what I had to do every day. No, I didn't. As a judge, there's law that's binding on me, which I'm not thrilled that I have to impose or follow what I do, right, because there's a bigger principle at stake, it's part of a system. You're a part of that and you're never going to be able to make change, do things that are beneficial to society or to the community by saying, well, I'm just not going to date partner. We're all part of it. So you've got to find your way to be comfortable with what you're doing so that you can do what you really want to do. And are there compromises? Are there days where you just shake your head? Yeah, there are, but that's the reality. I think, as a crown, there's a fair amount of wiggle room because we do exercise a lot of discretion. So, but I think it's really important to depersonalize it. So I think that to build on what Judge Buckle is saying, this idea that you're, there are just guiding principles that you have to get behind to be able to do the job. And I think what I think about, I think what's so interesting about criminal law and how what it looks like and then what it, what how it's taught is that it's a lot more gray than you think it is. There's a lot more range than you think that there is. It's very human, like it's very centered in the human beings who are doing it, which it's a very hard thing to teach. Students, well, you know, when you get new students, they're always like, how do you know what sentence to ask for in like a, like a low level, you know, property crime, like shoplifting or something like that. And I do research cases like no, like I just know, sort of like what it's worth at this point. And, and I think that that what you find when you're doing the job in the beginning. It, it will feel restrictive because you're just learning a lot, and you don't quite know yet what the possibilities are. What you think is really great about criminal laws, I think all of the people who are going into it and you could hear that tonight are these really passionate people who are really interested in people and real life problems and so building relationships, it's amazing what you can do when you build really good relationships with the people who are working in that system either as the defense lawyers or your court clerks or your sheriffs. I think people who are in criminal law are problem solvers by nature. And so there's more space I think in criminal law than in other things, although granted I've not done, I don't have a lot of experience in other areas of law. I wouldn't just put any job like there's just going to be stuff that you don't want to do, like, you know, and then you just do it but you know that like the next day there could be something really interesting that you can, that you can change. Again, those systems are like they're, they're a long standing system so I think you do have to get get used to doing stuff that you may not agree with but you know over time or that I guess stacked up and over the life of a career I think that there will be more days where you feel like you got a chance to do something interesting. Again this coming from a crown perspective because we do have a lot of discretion. Then then there's more good days than there are bad days by far more moments of where you feel like you've got wiggle room than there is. Thank you for that Josie. I would hope that you would have four good days and bad senior your lengthy career in this. So that doesn't make me feel very hopeful for the future. So we have probably just around 20 minutes left. And I'm not sure how long this will take, but perhaps there's some final closing thoughts. If the panelists have any comments on your career journey and perhaps any regrets that you have, maybe any opportunities that you wish you had pursued or opportunities that you pursued that perhaps maybe you wish you hadn't. Scott let's start with you. I haven't heard you in a little bit. I regret not having become a poet. It's a really good question I mean that you know I, as I said I really fell backwards by pure accident, multiple times into where I am today so I can't say, you know I made this decision and it got me to this place and I wish I'd made some other decision that got me somewhere else or got me here in a different way. It's, you know, I can say that I can't imagine, and I do say this frequently and that I just can't imagine a better job in law than the one that I have. And it's interesting to hear, you know, especially Judge Buckle when you were saying about just how rewarding it is to, to, you know, to represent certain individuals and to make those kinds of connections and to really help people and and I will say, you know, that is not so much an experience that that crowns good I've never gotten a letter from, you know, a CRI investigator thinking for my wonderful work on his tax evasion investigation but as much as I enjoy doing it. And really, you know, I think, working as a federal prosecutor has so many benefits to it. One of you know some of them very practical I mean the other thing that we don't have is any concern about, you know, chasing clients or billing or any of those issues. You know, I see the job of a defense lawyer, which I've never been so that's a rather large caveat as to me it's your, you're a lawyer, you're a social worker, you're an accountant, you're a bill collector and all in one and I don't know that my mind would be able to properly compartmentalize all of that but when you work for the crowns office and especially for the federal crown. All we do is law that's all we do. It's the only thing I have to think about is the thing that I have come to really love and be passionate about and so it really allows us a lot of space to focus on that one thing and that's what I really love about it. I don't think I'm answering your question at all, Sierra, but as a closing remark I do want to make a pitch for that that it's, you know, it came as a great surprise to me, how much I enjoy this work and how much, you know, and how rewarding it is. It was a great honor to me and I highly recommend it to anyone out there who's listening and not just federal crown work but the criminal law work in general here in Nova Scotia. So it really was a great, great career path, and I wouldn't have changed, I wouldn't change any of the many happy accidents that got me. You absolutely did answer my question so no worries there's got thank you for that. Anyone else like to weigh in on any opportunities that they feel like they missed out on or that they're really happy that they took. I'll defer to Justice Oregon. All I'll say is that when I interviewed it fast, very senior litigator there, who was from Hamilton and he knew I was from Burlington, which is right next door. And he said to me you can always go back to Hamilton, but you can't start and come here. And I thought to myself, why would I want to go to Hamilton, right, like Toronto was it and I had in my head that this was the center of the universe and this was where the best work was everything else. I compared my career to my father's my father was a lawyer in Burlington when there was 10,000 people there he was involved in everything hospital, building that building the local football team everything else. He had a community connection that I didn't have. And I didn't know I was missing it until I went back to Halton, and I was a trial judge. And I saw then that what I was doing was really impacting the community, I was connected in a way that I never would be in Toronto. And I connected on an individual basis to, I got a letter to one time it was a card from somebody who had appeared before me, we used to have basket motions for divorces. I asked didn't you sign off, but I looked at it, and I was very concerned about this woman's husband was very violent, they're two young kids involved. So I made her lawyer come to court where I could ask some questions just to make sure that he was out of the picture and she was taken care of. And that was fine and I satisfied myself and I signed off and probably in a week I would do 100 of us right wouldn't have them in very often but just sign off. And I got a letter from her about two months later and she said you know the whole system seemed to be against me. And when I found out I had to testify I thought up here it is again my husband's going to win somehow. And she said but no you're really interested in my kids, and that meant a lot to. And she said I know you do this for lots of people but here's pictures of my kids and I want you to see them and see the impact you've had. Personal connection the community connection that you get when you're when you're practicing in the criminal field when you're practicing in a small town when you're at the small town court level. It's something that I never would have got if I'd stayed at a street, and I'm glad that I did it because, as I said, it's much more. So, that's my picture. Sorry Paul go ahead. Oh, I think you muted. It wouldn't be a real zoom call without one view. That's right. Yeah, I'm not going to turn into a cat though so don't worry about that. Yeah you know what's starting out you know I'm just kind of reflecting on justice organs answer there. You know growing, so I grew up in Cape Breton cuts of a rural part of Cape Breton, my parents were school teachers, I think for a long time, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. You know I often look to what my mom and dad were doing and I saw that they were, you know, helping people in our community, and, and through their work. They had meaningful relationships with people in our community. And although I didn't become a school teacher I think, I think I've sort of sought out that type of connection and meaning in my professional career. There have certainly been times when I've looked at what other classmates or, or, or colleagues have done and accomplished and you know I suppose I'm maybe a little bit ashamed to say that I felt envy from time to time. You know what I really like my job. I really like my job because it makes me feel like I'm doing something meaningful that you know my work for for folks is strengthening the community for everybody here. You know I'm sure there are times I've looked back about different decisions I've made professionally. I know I was in law school and thought you know if I had, you know just an X or Y maybe things might have turned out a little bit brighter but no I don't think I regret anything. I think I've had a meaningful path to where I'm at. I suppose now, looking back if I if I change something I don't know where I would be. And I'm content enough with what I get out of my work and, and my community that wouldn't change a single thing I don't think. I am. I don't want to sort of end on a dark note but I do want people to understand I don't have regrets about what I did or where I am but people have to understand that it's a hard job. You can't do criminal law for 20 years and not have a little bit of scarring because of it. It's so if you know for people thinking about entering it they have to think about that before they go in and they have to understand that you're going to touch you by the end of it and certainly now we have I think a lot more appreciation of the carious trauma and things like that but anyone who's done criminal law has been exposed to horrible, horrible, horrible things. And if you're someone who can't sort of do that and leave it behind in some way then this is not the right job for you. And even with that. I still love it. No, thank you for that just buckle I think we definitely the realistic comments too as well we don't want to, we don't want to paint a picture for students about how nice and fluffy this is. And as much as they're interested in criminal law like they're definitely is some, some very real issues that can crop up for sure so so I do appreciate that comment thank you. And just actually on that point that's a good tie into the two. Two pieces of advice I would leave it I wish I would have done them sooner my career is get a therapist and get a financial advisor and do it early. There's a great amount of vicarious trauma in criminal law, and there's no shame in going to a counselor and the law society there is counseling services through the law society and I think people should talk about it more, because it's, it's even, you know, it's maintenance, it's maintenance of strong mental health. So I think that that's a good thing and having a place to process it because the last thing you want to do is bring that home to your family and your friends and traumatize them with the content that you have and most of the time you can't share it anyway as so. So it's a good thing and then the financial advisor piece I say just because if you're like me coming at a loss with $80,000 and student debt and you don't make a lot of money in criminal law in the beginning and that that's one piece of stress that you can take off of your shoulders is getting some good advice. Lawyers are not accountants. And, you know, we often you see in our profession we have high, you know, high rates of substance abuse and other types of addictions and spending is associated with that as well and so I think at any time that you can give yourself tools to help with the things that you're that are not good at. And I think criminal lawyers, especially we have a tendency to think that we're, we're like armchair psychologists because we're around so many challenging issues but we're not. And, and our colleagues are not either even though we'd love to sit around and share those war stories and probably no one will understand you better than your colleagues, but we're not none of us are therapists. No shame in doing that so I would say like connect with that there's lots of free options and connect with a financial advisor and if you don't. No one and you can't afford one and you can't find one for free. I highly recommend gail as oxlades book books any of her books. And that helped me get out of my student debt very, very quickly. So yeah those are two pieces of advice that I wish I would have had at the very beginning of my career. But otherwise I wouldn't do anything differently, even with all of that, that that tough content. I still think it's the most interesting area of law to practice and I think it's the coolest, most interesting most rewarding. Thank you so much for that Josie. We didn't really get into the mental well being of lawyers and criminal law in this panel so I'm really glad that you brought that up. I was in the clinic last week. I'm in the Dalhousie legally clinic this semester, and we were talking about the difference with addressing mental illness versus just maintaining your mental well being. And so I think having this said so explicitly from people who are so experienced in the criminal off field. I'm really hoping that students can can take that advice to heart and really look out for for ourselves, as soon as possible. One more note. I don't see any comments in the chat but if any of the attendees or people watching this panel later on with the link have questions. Feel free to email the DC LSA at hotmail.com. If there's any questions for a specific panelists if the panelists agree here, I can forward that question on to them. But just let us know and we'd be happy to do that. And with that being said, I want to give an extremely large thank you to all six of our panelists that joined us here today. It was extremely informative. We went into areas that I hadn't planned on going into but I'm really glad that we did. I think it gave a very practical and realistic overview. Sorry, I just got a comment to link the email in the chat so I'll make sure I do that quickly. Sorry, I usually have an admin person but so with that being said, I hope you all have a lovely evening. Joining the Nova Scotia bar hopefully next year. If things go as planned. I'm really hoping that I get to be in connection with you with any of you later on. Thank you very much. Nice to see everyone. Thank you. Thanks so much. And thanks for the invite.