 Lisa Savage, welcome to Pathways to Progress, glad you could join us tonight. I'm here with Councillor Victoria Pelletier. We expect Councillor Roberta Ruggeri to get us to slide into home here in a minute. And we have a lot to talk about this week, so thank you for joining us. We have a podcast now, if you're a podcast person, we're on Spotify as Pathways to Progress. The whole archive of our live shows and our recorded shows is on there, so check us out. And so, Victoria, thanks for being here. You have just really had a couple of weeks, haven't you? Yes. How do you feel about being here? I mean, is this okay? It feels weird. It feels like I haven't had an in-person thing since the last Monday's council meeting, which was a really challenging meeting. So it feels weird, but I'm glad that I'm here because I certainly want to get back to doing the regular things that I was doing prior to Monday's meeting. But yeah, I was thinking about my council tenure, and this has probably been the lowest point for me so far. This has been the most challenging part of it, definitely. I know that you were just reading the coverage in the Bangor Daily News that just came out about it. It was interesting. Like last Friday, your supporters, the people who said, I'm out here because I can't stand the way people are treating Victoria, and it's horrible, and it's not fair, and I don't agree with it, a lot of people there today, for that point of view, I would say it seemed to me like about 50, although the Bangor Daily News had the count much higher, the people that have been harassing you and using hateful language were not very numerous at all, very small group standing in front of the Art Museum. And I thought the Bangor Daily News made it sound like the two groups were roughly equal, which wasn't true at all, and also that there was a lot of exchanges of projectiles. One guy came up with some tomatoes, threw one or two of them from the side with the Black Lives Matter signs, and the hate is not welcome here, and the crowd immediately said, dude, that is not okay, we are not going to let you do that. Yeah, I think the whole thing really for me personally is, I'm glad that people are speaking out about what's been happening with the banners, and this isn't the first time, this has been happening for a really long time. And I think the thing for me personally is that I don't want people to make it about me, like I want individuals, because when I see that sign, I had to walk past it every single day, but so did the kids at King Middle School, so did the kids at Reiki, so did the kids who go to Portland High School, and so do older adults that are existing in Portland and are Black, and so like when I walk past something that says that it's okay to be white, it has never not been okay to be white, and I think that that's the biggest thing that I want to put forward is it's never not been okay to be white, so we don't actually need a huge banner saying it's okay to be white, especially on the first day of Black History Month, and it was really hurtful, it was really offensive, and it was really insulting, and I spoke up about it because I felt like I couldn't ignore it any longer, and I know people have been saying like ignore things like that, and like just, you know, like don't bring any attention to it, but it's hard for somebody like me and so many other Black people we have that live in Portland that have to walk past that every single day, and I think that it's incredibly insulting and incredibly unfair to people who deserve to live and work in Portland and not have to walk past a sign that says it's okay to be white as a non-white person. It's often referred to as a dog whistle, those type of, because you know people will say well isn't it okay to be white? The dog whistle part being the reference to the fact that it hasn't been okay and still isn't okay in many places to be not in a white appearing body and be safe, like you can't be safe unless you appear white, and that as you point out that affects old people, it affects children, that someone like you who is an elected official, strong in your community, a lot of support, you're one of the people that is are acting on behalf of the more vulnerable who either can't speak up or are afraid to speak up, but you drew a lot of really hateful communications by speaking up. Yeah that was that's the part where I keep thinking about you know because naturally you do something and then there is gonna be a reaction which I was I was prepared for not not as much as that I think as much as I received, so I was going back and forth like oh my gosh should I not have said anything and like I was playing it out in my head but in any scenario whether I was a city councilor or whether I was an activist with no elected official title I would have spoken out about that because that's just who I am that's always been my character is to speak out on these issues especially when so few people are because again I think it's important to say this is Portland this is a city that tries really hard to be inclusive and tries really hard to be progressive and celebrate all different identities and three years ago we were you know doing eight hour protests for Black Lives Matter people were laying on the ground for eight minutes at a time trying to say I am here and showing up for Black Lives and it felt really it just felt really disappointing and like heartbreaking to see like that sign is now up and we're just I'm just I just have to walk past it and like say nothing and I hate that for myself and I hate that for so many others who have been silenced for being Black and who have been silenced for speaking out for being Black and I'm very aware of that you know people have been like harmed for less than what I've done like I spoke up I have a platform and I spoke up and the the feedback was really significant and the death threats which were on this like anonymous fortune page or whatever that's where the threats came from and it was it's just a really surreal experience reading an entire thread about how awful of a person you are and all the things that should happen to you because you spoke out and you know I sent all of that information to the city manager until like it's it's out there now and I was posting about it on my council page as well of saying like here's the feedback here's what I'm getting but yeah it's it's been though it's been by far the the worst month that I've had it's a typical intimidation tactic toward people of color and women of color in particular to threaten you know sexual violence of violent death that kind of thing so in one on the one hand you've got a platform now where you would have said something anyway but now when you say something it's it has such broader reach because you you know you have that platform but on the other hand because of the platform you know I've seen this many times in other you know race anti-racist movements it's just really a horrible thing to live through it's hard to feel safe it's hard to feel okay about going to work and thanks for joining us so good to see you this is what this is great we were like you're gonna walk in mid that's all right and I like TV I think it's just very very real now they know it's live TV so we're just checking in yeah Victoria has quite a check-in as you're aware how are you doing let's go on on with you I'm good I'm reminding myself that I'm neither built for running nor in shape for running in the snow well I parked a couple blocks away I hustled my way here thank you here we'll do kind of guess I should have reminded you earlier today so that was my bad I should be moment I was like oh yeah I kept remembering like I have this thing at six that I have to remember to go to but it's been a weird month so this is I feel like this is really shaky today all right we checked out all the chairs all right I feel like this is not a prank it's on you were saying something really serious and I walked in no I think that I was just talking about this has been the worst month I've ever had on the council and it it's definitely a thing of like back and forth like should I have said anything or should I have not said anything but I was saying that I couldn't imagine an avenue where I wouldn't have like just because that's how I'm built it has nothing to do with being on the council or not I just know that I would have and the same the same things would have resulted because you know I think when you do something and you get a lot of feedback it's it's a lot of like should I have even said anything like maybe it would have been better if I didn't say it but I one like again that's not how I operate and two I think in my history there have been people that have spoken out on really scary harmful racist things and because they did that I am now awarded these seats that I wouldn't have had before I'm awarded the privilege of being on city council I'm awarded the privilege of being able to vote I'm awarded the privilege of being able to walk into the same store as a white person all of those things resulted because somebody spoke up and said like I'm gonna say something and it might result in me getting harmed but I'm gonna speak the truth and be unapologetic in that and so that's really how I have to align my existence here and while it's not exactly the same because we are in a society we're on paper black people and white people are equal it's still a terrifying thing to do but I always think about who's coming after me and who's next do I want the kids at King and Reiki and Portland High School endearing to have to walk past that that banner every single day as black people absolutely not so if there is something that I can do to speak on that issue and to speak on my experience with it I feel it is within me to to have to do that I don't really see another avenue we're so much more comfortable with people that did that back a long time ago right we just like lionized the Rosa Parks or whoever that said you know took the stand and but it makes people very uncomfortable and someone actually does it like right here and now yeah because it's a big reminder that like well things are still very unequal and there's still a lot of you know danger and vulnerability in standing up for just your basic human rights if as a person of color as a young woman of color especially very vulnerable place to be so can I can I say something about that though because yes what you said is true but there is and we have acknowledged over the last I mean we've been getting warned about this for the last 20 years and we've seen it manifest in the last eight years there has been a resurgence of like really far right conservative groups that have started to gain more momentum and so it's not just something from the past it's something that's getting augmented in our and in the reality today so I think again the fallacy and how we call this out and it's part of what I commented on I'm still in that evening is you know that's not our past and neither is a comment of that doesn't reflect us necessary quite the opposite it's time to say yo this is the reality in which we live in this is the reality that a black woman in the city of Portland in 2023 is experiencing like we really got to be careful with the whole exceptionalist you know perception that that's not how it should be that's not how it is anymore or that's how it used to be it 100% is what is going on I mean these folks were out here in front of city hall this morning having a it's alright or it's okay to be white rally I mean it's what it's what's happening it ain't the past creeping up on us it's today just reminding us that it's still here and the kids that are coming up through school know it they totally know it they don't think they don't think racism is over or that they you know can speak up and feel safe about speaking up if they have a classroom or they have a school where they can then that's a wonderful thing but just to come out on the streets and encounter you know that kind of racist dog whistling for lack of a better word that you know that's a scary thing but as economic conditions deteriorate I'm sure that you know again history will suggest that people start looking for scapegoats they start looking for reasons like oh we're you know it like if a rising tide lifts all boats thinking tight drops all boats and everybody's dealing with difficulty paying their bills and staying warm and it's not a not a good situation that we're in I think as white people get more frantic and you know desperate about hanging on to their privilege they become more and more loud about there is no such thing as white privilege I have I cannot tell you how many low-income white people have tried to argue with me that there is no such thing as white privilege I always say to them well when your kid was a teenager did they ever do stupid stuff that like brought them into contact with the police and of course yeah go were you afraid they would die as a result of that contact then you have white privilege than that right there alone is yeah yeah I think I think it's hard with with like the specifics of how like whiteness has manifested itself in in these like kind of covert ads of saying like it's okay to be white and like the response I got a lot was you're racist against white people if you're calling that out and I've said it to exhaustion that it has never not been okay to be a white person especially in a place like Portland and it's it's it makes it hard to to feel like we can have a collective dialogue about it when it's just like well you're racist if you don't like that sign then you must be racist against white people because if you did like that sign then you would say it's okay to be white and like my whole thing is like when is it ever not been okay I'm trying to figure out ever not been okay yeah favors some people those skin is a certain color over others so it is impossible for the people that are disfavored under that system to be racist might they be prejudiced they might but that is not racism racism is systematic inequality that's like baked in and you know based on something as trivial as your skin color and I think we're all aware that black people in this country have never had the opportunity to account or to you know get together enough power to be oppressive towards anybody right I think that you know I we talked a little bit in that evening about you know economic growth and and financial freedom right like and coincidentally that same week we had this monopoly game Portland edition come out and I think you know monopoly this is a this is a gentleman Dr. Claude Anderson he uses this example quite often when he talks about you know economics in the black community he says you know picture you know the game in the mouth the game in the monopoly as the history of this country where we're all sitting out getting ready to play you're a white person you get a full bank and you get to start the game ahead of time and you get to roll and then I show up halfway through the game I get half the bank and I get to roll Victoria's a black woman shows up you don't get damn and you get to roll when wherever you land rents gonna be due or you're gonna end up in jail so you're either gonna go in debt or you're gonna end up in jail I might have a little bit of a chance because I'm a little bit lighter in my skin I have a little bit more privilege you got the whole bank you get to tell us how we're going though my dad got his GI bill after he went in the army did did black people get their GI bill after they went you know they went and did the same thing never got 40 acres of them you either federal support for mortgage help federal support for their college education like people don't realize this stuff so the whole this whole thing of you know black people being able to to be racist or to oppress other people that's just a fallacy and we that's that needs to stop right away and again you know even the whole idea of like we need more black people in government or we need black police officers of black no what we need is our communities to be able to get economically advantageous positions where we're reinvesting money in our own economy you know every black dollar eventually ends up in the white economy every Puerto Rican dollar eventually ends up in the white economy why can't that money be circulated amongst ourselves why can I have my dollar bounce back and forward between black and brown people why does it always have to go back to the white economy because that reestablishes that place of support and power that allows them to be oppressive towards others but if we create economic growth and financial opportunities for our communities and we create our communities like to really live within communities and advance each other then we'll be able to make these political positions more advantageous because we'll have money to put the candidates into the offices that we need them to but right now what we're doing out here is suffering we're out here suffering because we are in a position to be advantageous but our communities don't have the economic power that that they need to drive themselves forward in this country and you're drawing a lot of hostility and I mean it's obviously an attempt to intimidate and silence people by being so nasty and so threatening that you know somebody less brave than you might go whoa I just cannot I cannot get through my day and do my job and deal with these violent threats popping up on my phone yeah like I just took a full I'm still taking a break because I wasn't feeling like safe I wasn't you know you're looking at this online anonymous messaging board and wondering how far is it gonna get when people are saying these really awful things and it just I mean I'm I'm still like processing and I'm not really sure like where I'm gonna go I loved being able to use my council page to connect with people I was really proud of the page that I've built but that page now makes me so visible every single thing that I put now is being screen grabbed and like dissected and then I'm getting like it's just like cause and effect of like me posting and then somebody takes it and then I get a bunch of messages and DMs that I don't want to read so I feel like I'm still trying to figure out where I'm going I'm I'm I just I haven't like I haven't fully processed it because it's just as bad as it's ever gotten that I don't really know like trauma lies how to move forward because like this is the first time I've talked about it since like Monday's meeting so yeah yeah I haven't I haven't really talked about it so so yeah I mean but I will say to change gears a little bit the support from Portland has been overwhelming like just beyond anything that I could have been prepared for and I've gotten really great messages from the Kings the kids that from the Deering Black Student Union I got a great care package of these amazing messages from the kids at King Middle School I visit with a lot and you know educators and people in my district reaching out and saying you know we appreciate you speaking out and like thank you for that we're sorry to hear what's been happening so the the support has been really great and beyond what I was even prepared for at the meeting on Monday we had a lot of public comment of people coming in and sharing and that felt really good so I need to remember that that part is a lot more impactful than the the negative part of it but you know that's that's like that's really hard because the negative comments get in and you know they're meant to scare you know it's not just like someone criticizing your point of view and saying no I agree with you or whatever it's threatening yeah that's what makes it hard is that so much it's beyond like how we vote on stuff like we get that all the time of course people disagree with our votes that's like part of this role but I think the me feeling unsafe going on a walk in Portland because I'm worried like is this message board which is anonymous gonna come to life and manifest into the point where I don't want to die over in this job of being a Portland City Councilor so you know yeah but it's like we have elected officials that are like consistently like under attack and then different parts of of the country we see it happening obviously at the national level too of you know like somebody going after like Nancy Pelosi's husband who broke in with a hammer like just it's it's just getting so scary and violent and it it definitely makes you think like where is the line and how how much of an impact am I gonna make versus taking care of my own personal safety and personal health so you have to take care of yourself because if you take care of yourself you can't do yeah any jobs or City Council yeah yeah be a parent or I that was a big lesson for me and you know teaching and being a parent like you've got to do the self-care because then you can't help anybody yeah well should we switch gears do you have do you have more that you'd like to say on this or I had a funny quote I have some comic relief for you so I was standing out there with you know a supporter today and saying hey do you have any questions for the Councillors tonight and and she said yeah I want to know why they voted unanimously to allow a developer to build a huge housing complex from City Hall down to Franklin arterial with and they've and the developers already paid the fine so they don't have to put any affordable housing in and I said the entire City Council voted for that and she said yes where are you guys laughing at that's not very funny did you did you know that's not not us that was not us that's the planning board that's happened a couple times actually I will say since I've been on the council I've experienced just like I see stuff that's like unanimous vote by the council and I'm like wait do we I'm like did I miss a meeting and then it's it's most often the planning board and I think with those types of because I recently saw that too about the the hotel that's now been approved yeah that was that's the planning board and I'm curious to see if what level of public comment happened at that meeting because I think that happens often where things are voted on to the planning board level and people find out later because they're just I'm not sure if they're you know it's sometimes it's tough to find and like our agenda center what's happening there's just a lot going on it's hard for people to make meetings but I encourage everybody to go to the planning board meetings and get it be in the know with what they're talking about and what they're voting on because that sometimes I read things and there's one or two people that make a comment and that's it and it's the same with us it's like that type of public response we need that in order to really make sure that we are being accountable with what we're voting on and the jobs that we were elected to do but if we get two comments it makes it really hard so so yeah but to answer your question that was not us that was the planning board and and to Tori's point you know like every every every step or every phase that a developer has to go through you know there's always opportunities for public comment but the process itself is the moment is there's multiple stages it is complicated even a year into the council there's still stuff that you know we're learning about what the planning boards you know what their role is and what the council's role is and certainly the difference between like a soul map map amendment versus like a site plan and all the different things that should be taken care of under each step so you know there's certainly a lot of like education that needs to happen there's a lot more public engagement that needs to happen when you said that this usually like two people at each of those meetings it's usually the same two people right like we have like this I'm not saying that the same thing wrong with that but there are some folks who are just always there and you hear the same voices and some of them are immensely valuable right like there's some of these folks that they do so much work and they provide so much insight into what we're doing that I'm like we should be paying them but but again you know you're hearing from a really small group of folks I I I also I think I just very slightly differently from from what Tori said I think that people it's impossible to really ask people to be in all those meetings so it kind of falls on us and we've been we've taken some really difficult votes that are opposite of what the planning board has suggested for that same reason because we know that there's people that we're hearing from that weren't at those meetings that hold really strong opinions about another luxury hotel and downtown Portland so we kind of have to bring those voices in and we do when we vote and in lieu of there being like a whole community showing up that that's kind of what we do so if they don't show up they let us know that's a yeah that's a good point because I remember it was was it like a year ago that but we had the 58 4th Street vote and that was a unanimous planning board vote that was not unanimous on the council actually failed in the council and that was that was a tough one because I don't think that happens very often where the council and the planning board are not in alignment because naturally the planning board does all of that work and is essentially like here you go this is our recommendation and yeah I think that's a great point was that we were we were hearing from constituents who weren't at the planning board part of it and so that makes it really hard as well because then we're like well we yet we're accountable to the constituents and but then the planning board's kind of like we that wasn't a unanimous thing and you just kind of like I don't want to say like killed our work but kind of you know like back to the drawing board a little bit and that makes it challenging in terms of just trying to make sure that we're being representative of who elected us but also listen to the planning board might irritate the planning board but I know my friend who posts the question is going to be really thrilled to find out yeah I have a more I was asked a more serious question while I was out on the pavement today by someone who is very active supporting the homeless community and their question was warming centers seem to be very hastily last minute why is that why was that particular timing so rushed and and just in general it's main it's winter why aren't we having warming centers that are just can be counted on and it's not a scramble to provide them so I'm bringing that question to you as well I know you were a little salty on your on your counselor page about okay we can finally tell you about the warming center so reading the lines it seemed like you were also well I did put I did post a story about it because I I want to always be just like really transparent about like how it's going for us because I think sometimes people think because we're counselors we get like the secret information before the public and when it's confidential stuff that happens but with the warming center like we were being told the same thing as the public which is like we're working on it and we hope to have an announcement this afternoon but it's not like the council was made aware of the warming center at 10 and the public was at 3 like we had I didn't know until the press release came out and I will say the good news is in health and human services and public safety we have prioritized for one of our goals for to really dive into at next month's meeting what's the plan around the warming said warming centers and how can we put a plan in place so that depending on the degree that it is or whatever we have something ready to go for next time because that was a that was an all-day scramble people were terrified it should not ever be like that where we were kind of putting stuff together as you know what is that saying the planes like crashing we're like putting them together building the plane while flying it so we do have we are going to work on that in HHS because we did notice that that was a huge need but yeah I mean it's a lack of room it's lack of staffing I think that was the hardest part to was trying to find people to operate the warming center for a two-day span which made it really difficult we're already really short staffed at the city level and it's again I think it ties in a little bit to just like our huge crisis with like housing and asylum seekers and all of this lack of just space and room and shelter and so that manifested itself in the warming center issue but I am glad that we're gonna well I'm happy to prioritize it yes taking taking that yeah realizing the timing believe it or not our time is almost up it's a fast really fast half hour for you I don't want to end without thanking our great director Warren Edgar here at Portland Media Center we could not do the show without you tonight we're helped in tech by Shailen O'Brien so thank you for that we are a podcast now that was right that was your brainchild saying you know we'd get more audience if we were a podcast and we're on Spotify the whole archive is there so that's been positive growth for us and you know thanks for being with us tonight we couldn't do it without you the audience and thanks for caring enough about your city government to tune in and here from Roberto Rodriguez and Victoria Pelleteer our progressive city counselors thanks for being here guys