 So the class we're taking is it's a multicultural counseling class there's about 12 of us in it at the moment and we're just trying to go through different cultures that we're not maybe familiar with in order to try and I guess more familiarize ourselves with it and maybe try and see from different perspectives any potential issues or maybe conflicts or biases that we may encounter in future clients and ourselves. So I was wondering, since you have mental health experience do you have any advice on that? Great well first of all thank you for you know for doing something like this because it shows your interest and you know and trying to understand and bridge the gap. Cultural competency is really important and it is something that's critical for mental health providers to know about because in many cases it can prevent care right if someone is has predisposed ideas or or biases as you said or just prejudices or or just lacks understanding they may not even feel comfortable to seek help and so if we can somehow address those concerns then we can hopefully encourage people to be more open to seeking out services. So I want to applaud you for doing something like this. As far as yeah some of the barriers for access of care that we've come across from our community because it is something certainly we've witnessed and we've had to grapple with in our community that immense stigma with mental health. When I started for example back in 2009 when we started our website Mental Health for Muslims I started with my cousin who's a clinical psychologist and then I had a lot of experience in the community because there was such a stigma to seek professional help they would seek out people like myself or other religious leaders in the community assuming that whatever they were going with or through whether it was their own personal struggles with anxiety depression things that we knew symptomatically had you know we already knew how to define those things but because of their lack of knowledge of these were mental health issues they assumed that they were spiritual crises. So that is for the Muslim community a big issue where a lot of people self-diagnose and presume falsely that what they're presenting is a lack of spirituality there's a disconnect there so they sometimes are so turned off by the idea of actually seeking professional help because in their worldview that's just not a possibility it has to be a spiritual explanation for why I'm sad and depressed maybe I should pray more maybe my maybe God is not happy with me so they'll make all these deductions which are of course and most of the time not there's no basis to them other than their own lack of awareness so we found that that's a big challenge where a lot of times the stigma to mental health is that people associate that you have you know it's it's unfortunate but there are a lot of people who equate mental health issues with some intelligent deficiencies or other character quality deficiencies not realizing that it's just the same as if you you know had a health problem you wouldn't presume anything about a person's character or their you know their their who they are if they had a health issue but unfortunately when it comes to mental health that's the stigma right like oh that that person is not well they're crazy God forbid you know they use these sort of terms that are really just not right at all but that's the that's the conclusion that's often made that mental health means that someone's not right and and they're almost irreparable so I don't want to associate myself with that at all it has to be a spiritual issue that I can find a spiritual solution for that's probably the biggest barrier that we've come across within our own community but we have made some strides because since we started that website in 2009 with our very few practitioners and these conversations even in the community weren't really open we have come like almost light years in the past you know how many years now has it been right 11 or so years I have seen in my own personal experience so many more conferences events programs at the mosque every Friday you'll see family nights and programs where imams even and people who are typically you know who in the past may not have been too open about this topic now it's a very common thing where mental health issues are brought up as community wide you know program that the programming that that is important for everybody to hear so they'll put it you know sometimes even in the Friday sermon they'll have addresses that talk about domestic violence substance abuse depression anxiety all of the very common disorders that we're seeing on the rise as a people as a species right they're they're addressing those to the community so we have made some some really great strides we've all we've also seen a huge surplus of more practitioners there's more there's something I don't know if you're familiar with but you may have heard of it there's the Khalil Center which is probably the leading national now organization of counselors that have you know offices all over the US and a branching out I think even into Canada where they are really taking the lead in the in the discussions around mental health there's there it's basically a service center but they have chapters throughout the US and they provide services mental health services to the community so there are organizations like that and many others that have come up within just I would say the past 10 to 12 years it's been really incredible to witness yeah that's great sounds like there's it's really growing the support so being hopefully new therapists or counselors what could we do to help try and also bridge that gap so they feel accepted or they're able to receive help that's a great question again I thank you for asking that question I think there should be some sort of cultural competency training about Islam and Muslims first before someone even considers taking on Muslim clients because the issues that do come up oftentimes are so in meshed with their spiritual identity as or their religious identity as Muslims so it's very hard to divorce those things in in a therapy session if and that's also one of the barriers that we found is that people are reluctant to go to see non-Muslims because they think they're not going to understand what I'm going through or why this particular incident is affecting me the way they are as opposed to a Muslim who at least has that context they understand right so I think when you have just a very simple like you know primary you know refresher about Islam to know the beliefs what the beliefs are what the the daily you know life of a Muslim entails will give I think the provider a really better lens to understand why certain things may affect their client that that maybe is not understood by by or seen in other people of different faiths and backgrounds because for Muslims Islam is not just a religious identity that we ascribe to on certain days or around holidays or you know we just kind of it's a label or that something that we it's actually a lifestyle so Islam very much affects everything that we do all the choices that we make our world view so if you don't have that understanding then it might be difficult for you to understand why someone you know won't take your guidance on well have you tried this or have you tried that because in their particular worldview that's just not an option like for example divorce you know I as someone who's been doing spiritual counseling for a long time for Muslims keeping the marriage intact is so important and it's we take marriage very very seriously divorce is permissible in the event that the marriage is just not salvageable but you really do try your best to save the relationship especially when children are in the mix so that is such an essential you know belief that that is very rooted in many Muslims and their just values so if you have a practitioner who doesn't have that same understanding and they will in the very first you know session suggest that maybe you should just dissolve the relationship you know if there's a it's like a counseling session for example you guys just don't seem very compatible you fight a lot there's too many other variables you know finances in laws and so they just deduce quickly that maybe the marriage is just run out of you know like there's really no point because in the Western or the you know their context it's just seems like that's the most practical thing to do then the client will likely feel like okay see they're just quick to rush us to divorce they don't really care about trying to really help us and that is actually a very common complaint I've heard from Muslim clients who have gone to see non-Muslims they always come back saying no they're too liberal minded or they don't have the same family values same understanding of like even in laws you know a big issue that you'll find if you ever are to have clients in the Muslim community are the families are very enmeshed in Muslim marriages so it's not so simple to tell or it's not easy to tell your client well you should just create boundaries with your mother-in-law and tell her not to come over you know those kind of things and in our Western sensibilities they make sense because it's like boundaries are very clear for us and we're more empowered to have that sort of those lines you know really clear but for Muslims it's very difficult because it will absolutely impact the entire marriage you know if you were to draw such clear lines with your mother-in-law or your father-in-law it could potentially lead to a divorce it's that serious right so I think having that knowledge that there's certain values that you know people of Muslim you know background or what regardless of the culture it's pretty shared because of their faith that they adhere to strictly therefore I have to kind of adjust my tone or my approach to not just you know dismiss those things or to overlook those things in my in my in what I provide and the service that I provide so yeah you've been mentioning a lot about family and I know how important it is but there's also it seems like almost a community like family within the faith itself like it's it may be separate from like the you know the family family but it still feels like they that it's treated as kind of a larger family within the faith absolutely that's a very very on point we do the community is very we do see ourselves as a one large body although we're definitely not a monolith there's a lot of variety but we are it's part of our belief system to see ourselves as one body so we call for example the Muslim community at large is called the umma which is like a nation of Muslims and so there's a lot of you know teachings in the faith that say that we do we should really try to strengthen our brotherhood our sisterhood so if you're part of a larger community wherever you live yes you see your community members as extended family members in many cases in there there is of course we have you know there's there's lines I mean it's not that they would know all of your private you know information we're not like that but it's to you do take into consideration the larger impact of your choices and decisions as an individual on the on the community as well we're not so separate that we just don't care like for example reputation is a very big deal you know in many of our Muslim cultures like so a lot of people will take that into consideration like how is that how is the community going to view me you know if I take this decision or if I take this decision so sometimes those factors are also really important and why they may choose to go one way or another and if a provider isn't aware of that and again they give very Western ideas to people who are not defined by those ideas it may cause just the lack of you know connection and then you might not see that that client again because they just feel like well they don't get me they don't get me they're just giving me very Western perspectives about things and I just I don't agree with that that's not my philosophy or that's not my viewpoint so but it can be you know bridged by just having more understanding and education about those things because I've actually sent friends of mine who didn't have success or couldn't find Muslim therapists in their area we've done some research and looked for people who in their you know description of their services they actually do describe that they do have competency around certain cultures and they found great success like that person did their due diligence or their you know they did their part to learn more about different cultures and it did help the way that they were able to provide service I think it's it's so it is possible to do that yeah so in your experience do when you're dealing with clients do you incorporate the family a lot more or is it still kind of an isolated thing that you just kind of use it use your knowledge and experience as a background that's a good question I always do like to know I mean depends on the circumstance I've worked with individuals I've worked with you know actual families where the mother the father and the children are all kind of there and then couples so I think it just depends on each situation but if I feel that there is some involvement you know metals some behavior for example in a in a marital context then yes I will want to know the you know more specific details about the family and the relationship that the individuals have because you know there are some filial piety for example in Islam is very important it's one of the top you know beliefs or tenets of the faith is that we worship God and we you know we have our own you know there's a lot of ritualistic practice that we have but one of the most important things that a Muslim must do or should do is to show reverence and respect to their parents so we that's a very big part of the Muslim you know mindset so it's a you know filial piety just having that so that can sometimes though posed you know issues when it comes to the marital relationship because a spouse may be completely conflicted if they have a very over a varying parent who is dictating to them how they should be in their marriage and you know everything that they should be doing in their marriage because they don't have good boundaries then the child or the spouse may feel really torn because they feel that they're doing something spiritually wrong like if they go against their parents right so this is where someone like myself who has a spiritual background can actually give them a balanced view that you don't have to pick your wife or your husband over your mom or dad right it doesn't have to be like that you can actually have compromise and maybe it's your mom or your dad that needs we need to bring them in and talk to them about hey listen you know we get that maybe you're having a really difficult time you know with your own personal situation or because you know a lot of our the older generation they get they create some unhealthy codependencies sometimes because being here in a foreign land not having their family from back home they can create those codependencies with their children that be that get very unhealthy and they're not aware of it and so sometimes having a third person like myself or maybe a religious leader who can come in and tell the mom and dad like listen yes you have rights in Islam and your children should be dutiful and respectful to you but you also have to respect their boundaries and this is what that entails so we can help to kind of you know dissipate the situation that way but there have certainly been instances where yes you have to involve the family if the relationship or the individual them because there's been individual cases as well where the parents are just not understanding you know the conflict that their child has individually and they need more education on mental health issues for example like depression anxiety what does that mean how can you better help them to you know help themselves instead of you know just you know shaming or blaming or kind of getting into that negative space because you're frustrated with your child or you're frustrated with this individual so sometimes it is necessary to get the family involved. We also mentioned using the imam with the parents as well is that something you would think would be you know acceptable in the mental health field to try and incorporate the spiritual leaders? I think it's absolutely something to keep as an option in the event that you're dealing with people who are very religiously committed people because you know they sometimes have that tunnel vision or just you know they can't really see beyond what what you're telling them so to have an ally who's in the community a religious leader who you can outsource when needed or to bring into a mediation for example or some conversation to help to you know again dispel certain false ideas because there are there's there's a lot there's sometimes just cultural things that get confused or passed on as religious ideas that an imam or or even a female you know teacher could certainly elucidate and clarify that listen that's a cultural idea that's not religious right so if you are concerned about your spiritual well-being or doing the right thing let me just tell you that that practice is nothing to do with Islam and it's actually just you know from your culture so sometimes it can be very useful to a practitioner to have a person in that capacity to you know to help to outsource when needed like I said but I would I would definitely look to your community and see if there is an opportunity to create a relationship with the local mosque where there they might have existing counseling services and you could even work with and pair up with providers from the mosque or from the community center to to help with clients when you get them or to just you know consult on certain issues that's absolutely something you should I would recommend doing okay well and it's kind of in the same vein where should where could me and my classmates go to find more information so we can kind of further our understanding I know you have the website the mental health for Muslims calm but what other resources do you think would be viable for us that's great there's a lot of I mean you know if we're talking specifically about learning about Islam there's a great many many different websites or organizations one that comes to mind that I personally know and have worked with and I think they do a phenomenal job of explaining a lot of the core beliefs of Muslims and Islam in a way that Westerners totally get and understand because they that's what they do is an organization called the Islamic Networks Group and they're actually based here in California in the South Bay I worked with them for a long time but they have a national reach they're in pretty much all the major cities they do what they do is they provide trainings actually cultural competency trainings to all different institutions hospitals police station schools universities middle schools like really everywhere corporations that have called on them they will come and they will actually do presentations on or trainings that will give you know people more just general basic information about Islam really bring them up to speed about a lot of the things that we talked about and they also have great content on their website that you could like there's an FAQ most commonly asked questions about Islam a lot of things that people who have no idea about what Muslims believe in will will get and they I mean they work the office itself there's non-Muslims that work there so it's a very inner faith very just American organization that is trying to make Islam more reachable or you know more approachable for for people who are outside the faith so I think I can provide that in the chat if you'd like other website I can so you can look it up but I think they have great resources on their website yeah that'd be great yeah well another thing just from calling down and writing to the local Levenworth Center it there seems so open they mean they're welcome within you know a few hours I got an email back and then it you know phone call so it was amazing to see how open it is that we can just if we have questions or we just want to clarify or anything really absolutely and that's very much part of the Muslim tradition Muslims generally don't we don't do like missionary work for example we don't go out and we don't you know process size that way but we do invite and we're very open when people ask questions like you could go to any mosque and you know in terms of if your students or your fellow students were interested in observing I'm sure they would arrange a meeting where you could I mean right now with COVID it might be a little different but post you know when things open up or even online they might have programs that are for the general community or for anybody to tune into I'm sure they would be more than happy to give you access to that and generally that's that's the experience of a lot of people have they're usually surprised like oh wow I could just go in and talk to people and sit and watch the prayers and nobody says anything I'm like yeah because we're we have nothing to hide and we're very proud of our faith and you know people are interested we're very honored by that so we're happy to accommodate and even like with Manir and myself we were very happy to you know talk to you because it's it's actually really nice to have people who are interested in learning from sources instead of just turning on news media or going to random play you know places that speak for us whereas we can speak for ourselves in these circumstances so we're really happy to do that so thank you well thank you I know you got to get going here in a couple of minutes but I just want to say thank you and do you have anything you would like to say to our my classmates well first of all again I want to thank you Eric for coordinating this and all of you for being so sensitive I think really just having open conversations and not being I know that and I'm a very American I mean I don't know if you can pick up I hope I mean I didn't explain but my back although I was born in Afghanistan I was really raised here I have no memories of again so I very much consider myself American and I think I know that part of American culture is political correctness and we're sometimes so worried about offending people and like oh I don't want to ask too many questions or you know it's religious especially around beliefs right we don't want to politics beliefs are certain things we don't talk about openly in our society but for Muslims we actually really do welcome those questions and I think you will find that experience as we just said across the board with Muslims we're actually happy to answer questions so feel like free or to do that and I will make myself available for anybody who has follow-up questions to this interview I can send you my email address I do a lot of interfaith work I speak publicly nationally so I'm very comfortable talking to people I have no problem answering questions even if you think like that's a dumb question or should I even ask don't worry you know people about my hijab about women and women's rights I do entire presentations on women's rights in Islam I talk about interface of sight there's really no topic that I would feel in a little intimidated by the answer so I think if you if they're interested I can certainly make myself provide my contact information for specific questions and also for resources because our time is limited here I don't have that off the top of my head but I can make perhaps like a resource sheet with more resources for you and and even look to registries that I'm familiar with to see if there's something more to your locality that that might help you in this regard so I can do that as you know after this offline yeah that'd be amazing do you mind if I share your I have your contact info your email notes can I share you know what if I can give you actually this email address the other one is for personal use but the one that I'm posting right there that's more for general and I just it helps me to filter you know between family and business and all the other stuff that I get so yeah this second email address is is please feel free to share it with your students and and anything I have I'm on line also I'm on Instagram on Facebook I'm on Twitter so people are on social media my tag is the same and I do write a lot so I have a lot of talks that I give but I also write a lot so you can check out posts if you're interested kind of seeing you and I write on mental health advocacy so that's perfect I really appreciate this again but I guess we'll wrap it up now since you got to get going here in one minute yeah yeah in a couple of minutes unless you had any final questions I can I can stay on for a couple minutes I don't really have any leftover but so one quick one then because all of my classmates are female and you're talking about females in in Muslim community I think a lot of times they're viewed as weak or maybe not as equal but that's not true and I was wondering if you can kind of sure well I hope I'm example of that that we're definitely not shy timid and you know that's I mean those are just tropes and unfortunately the media has definitely stereotyped us down to just that but if you actually study Islam or talk to Muslim women you will see that that's couldn't be farther from the truth we're very empowered because you know looking at the history of Islam and Muslims 1400 plus years ago you'll see that a lot of the rights that Western women and women and other civilizations and societies have gone have received just in the past maybe hundred years or so Muslim women were given those rights you know centuries ago the right to vote the right to inherit the right to work the right to own property a lot of those things were given to us it was just part of our faith so we've had that for centuries so I think what we see though are is is cultural so a lot of I mean I come from a cultural like I mean culturally Afghanistan right where our introduction to Afghanistan happened after 9-11 it was put on the map and the instant images you see are people wearing that you know they call the the zoo key the beekeepers you know blue the the the Chador right which is you know an outfit that's traditional to the Afghan culture and it actually predates even Islam so people don't know that that that was just something that even after you know the liberation and the Taliban were dismantled and all you know the America and the troops and the Western troops entered you will still go to many places in Afghanistan and the women still wear that it's a cultural part of their identity so it's not part of Islam right but things like that that I think are really important for people to understand the difference between culture and the religion because the religion itself is very liberating to women you know we and I could give you I mean the presentations I do that's exactly what I do I go over the history I talk about historical figures I talk about all of the rights that are in that are in the scripture from both the Quran and the hadith which are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad where we're showing clear example and evidence of the fact that women have always had rights in Islam and it's just a matter of systems right patriarchy is real and it definitely is you know in every corner of the world and when you see those systems in place then sure it's going to present as though you know the women may not have certain rights but not that's not from a religious standpoint and that's why you see Western Muslim women very much more vocal because they're not you know under a lot of those systems right we can be more vocal here so we find you find Muslim women and we have you know Rashida Tlaib we have Ilhan Omar they're in politics you know our first two Muslim women in political positions so if we were really like the stereotypes in a lot of the Hollywood films and all of these other you know areas where we're just we don't speak and we can't do anything we can't move without our husband's permission you would not see so many up-and-coming women who are very strong very vocal very outspoken who drive you know do things that again stereotypes may may say otherwise but we're proof that that's just not simply true and those are unfortunately just you know oppressive systems and government systems that are not in line with the faith but the presentation I have is actually I think it would be great I don't know if there would be an opportunity but if it's something you want to talk about offline maybe we can share some of those I know it's more you know with the whole class