 Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's business skills series. My name is Sarah Gonzalez, and I'm from Redback Conferencing. Today, we're talking about bouncing back with confidence, a panel discussion based on mental health and experience. So we all know that mental health disorders will affect nearly half of our population at some stage of their lives. And while these are problematic, we can also use these to spark positive life-changing events, and then we can start to uncover realizations and also reinvent ourselves. Today, we're going to draw on our panel and the positives that they've learned from their personal experiences. Hopefully, this will help to inform you and your colleagues when it does come to bouncing back with confidence. Just a quick note that this should be viewed as a discussion and not specific advice. And also, if this does raise any issues or concerns for you, there is an array of professional support services out there, including Lifeline on 131114. So today, I'd like to welcome our panel. And starting from the far side, we actually have Phil Preston, and he's actually the founder of Collaborative Advantage. He was in the corporate world once upon a time, and he's now gone to helping people and businesses engage with their communities in positive and meaningful ways. How are you today, Phil? I'm very good. Thank you, Sarah. Great to have you. Next, we have Samantha Brunn School, and she's a general manager at Brunsley Park. So an entrepreneur, an advocate, and a mentor. She was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at the age of 18 only a few years ago. She actually has now used that as a platform for positive change. How are you, Samantha? Very well. Good to have you. And finally, we have Julian Williams, a partner at PWC. So Julian does actually know he's own, have his own experiences with mental health, work in a high pressure work environment. He does have his own experiences. However, he is now enjoying life on the other side. So we have him with us today as well. How are you, Julian? I'm really well. Thanks, Sarah. Excellent. So we've introduced our panel. Now we're going to get right into it. So first of all, a recent report that was actually supported by Beyond Blue was actually titled The State of Workplace Mental Health in Australia. Actually stated that one in five Australian employees have reported that they have taken time off work due to feeling mentally unwell in the past 12 months. And that is alarming for a lot of us. And I think some of us know people in those situations, and some of us may not. On your personal journeys, and I'll start with you, Phil, what have you discovered about the intersection of mental health issues and the work environment? What's your whole past been like? My past, excuse me, goes back about 10 years in the corporate space. And I suppose what, because I now work for myself and I have for about the last nine years, and that was part of the journey, which I'll get to. But I found that I can strike out of nowhere mental health. And it did for me in probably not as a severe way as it would for a lot of people. But I found it totally changed my view of what I was doing and where I fit in. And it was hard to adjust. What I found in the workplace was, particularly at that time, there was, it was the thing that you didn't mention because we had this acronym called CLM, a career limiting move. And mental health discussing it was one of the things that would fit in that category because that would limit your career progression. So I found it was hard to talk about it. And I thought if I'm out there thinking this, there's got to be a lot of other people. And as a final point, I guess that led me into disguising those symptoms and not really tapping into any work resources or networks that were there. Did you find this as well, Julian? So you're in the professional services industry, corporate, big. Did you also come across this with your experiences the same as what Phil did? I think I'll answer maybe a little bit different to Phil. I took it on as it's my problem. I've got to deal with it. And I think for probably up to six to nine months was very much around, no one else needs to know about this. I need to work this out. I need to come up with my solutions. But I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And I finally put my hand up and with retrospect, I should have put my hand up a lot earlier because the support was there. And it wasn't just the policies in the organisation. There are people there that care about you. And I think you've got to trust that if you do the right thing, someone will look after you. And that was the bit I learnt. I'm sharing with lots of other people around that. But on the other side is actually when you tell the stories about it actually helps others think about what they should do as well. And 2010, Samantha, so not a huge time ago, was sharing part of your recovery almost when this all happened? Absolutely. Actually it was the last part of my healing journey almost. 2010 I had the diagnosis, 12 months in I decided to try and have a full-time job. And I didn't disclose that I had just been diagnosed. And that really got me unstuck at that point in time. But then 12 months on, I actually use this mentor illness as a way to look at, well, I can let this is a time to find a job that gives me a sense of purpose and meaning. And rather than going into it full-time, then decided to start three days a week and then move into a full-time role. Okay, so quite similar in terms of your journeys there. Just before we go on, I'd also like to encourage people that you can actually ask questions. Any questions that you do ask will be private. We will discuss them in the panel, but we won't mention any names. So moving on, let's talk about the upside, because today is all about bouncing back with confidence. So we do want to put a bit of sparkle on this and make it not so dirty with. We all know the benefits for organizations if they do address mental health in the workplace. So we've all read when it comes to reduce absenteeism, to increase productivity, to so much more. Personally, in your experience, do you think there's any upside apart from this? When it does come to mental health experiences? And if so, what is it even for the individual as opposed to the corporate? Do you want me to go first? Yeah, yes. I think it's more important for the individual as my 12-year-old daughter says, if you can't fill your own bucket, Dad, you can't actually help anybody else. What a very insightful question. The thing that I learned was very early on in my recovery was, Julian, you have the right to think about yourself. And I think if I look back, I probably wasn't thinking about myself. I was thinking about helping my family, my clients, my colleagues, everybody else. And as that journey progressed, it became, well, actually, what gives you joy? And then as I came back to work, one of the conversations I had around was, well, what's the return to work project look like? And there was ABCDE, which intellectually were very challenging and interesting, but didn't emotionally get me. And then the last one was my gut moved. So I think there's a piece around, actually, the journey can actually take you to a different spot than where you were before if you let it. And you've almost got to let go and you've got to go back and find yourself again. Which has been a really interesting journey for me and it continues still. And was opening up for you as well, Phil, was this also something that gave you upside, do you think, in hindsight? Oh, definitely. I think it's a gift to be able to come through the other side because, look, I found there's so much more texture to be found in life. You go through life sometimes with highs and lows, but they're maybe not that large and you don't realise they're not that large until you have bigger highs and lows. So to actually understand what other people are going through and have that empathy was a big plus. But for me personally, it was actually the trigger to re-evaluate what I was doing with my career. So I was in a corporate, I was on a pretty fast trajectory, but there were train tracks there and I couldn't easily get off the train tracks. So it made me question, do I stay on this journey for life or do I get off the tracks? And I took an absolute plunge into an area I had no experience in and it's nine years on, it's been absolutely fantastic. So I think there's a lot of upside there. I know it's not, maybe for everyone, it's not always as easy to point to the upside, but I've had that experience. And from the other side, Sam, so you're quite a successful businesswoman, what's the upside for corporates in this or organisations that do actually invest in this, whether it's just opening up, saying, look, my door's open or whether they do actually have policies in place. Have you implemented anything in your organisation and what sort of upside have you seen from that? Yeah, I think that going through your own mental health journey like that allows you to be more understanding and have more awareness around the human condition and these things that are happening for your employees. Some different things that we've implemented is before our team meeting, we do meditation, we also do a wiffle, what I feel like expressing. So having a one minute, a one minute outlet for everybody in the team to actually express how they're feeling. How often do you need to time keep that? Yeah, I guess it's helpful. And again, we've got a smaller team there by doing something like that where people can actually express how they feel and recognising that actually everybody else on the team are just people, they're just like us and they have things that are happening outside of work that will absolutely have an effect on how they perform in the team. So having that recognition there has been very useful as well. Okay, have you both experienced any of this in terms of your own careers? What's happening with Samantha? Yeah, it's interesting. You look at large organisations and there's policies and there's rules and that sort of sets a foundation. But at the end of the day, we all work with people and the connections with people around what does your future hold for you? What do you want to achieve? And I think as Sam was saying before, we started the session, the values the organisations have and honestly talking about those to enable some honest conversations around how people want to live their life and their corporate role versus their non-corporate role is very important. Creating that space to talk about it is really useful. Definitely. Now, we'll go back to the organisational thing in a moment, but first of all, I just want to talk about purpose. So I want to go to you, Sam, because we had a discussion earlier and it was really about personal purpose and what role that does play in this. So how did you find your purpose when you went through this whole journey and how can other people learn from that? I think that the drill trigger for getting this diagnosis of bipolar disorder really was that I had lost myself and so it was really that self-discovery of who am I? What's the difference I want to make in the world? And through that journey, I really gained an appreciation for what a sense of belonging does for us because only once we have a sense of belonging can we have and make that greater contribution back to a wider community. So as a business leader, as a manager, once I was able to actually figure out well, what's my bigger why, then I was able to encourage that we'll first align that with our business vision, our mission, our values and then encourage and facilitate that so that each employee is aligning their role to their bigger why because once they understand the bigger why behind what they're doing, it actually then trickles down to the performance of how they do their role. And just on that, Julianne, and I think this sort of touches on your belonging and those people around you and I've interviewed a whole range of people, especially this year and one thing that really does come up that resonates I think with everyone is having that support network around you and having those pillars around you and they do say the top five people that you hang around and spend all your time with you will eventually become. How did that play a role in your experience with this? Was it about eliminating people or finding out what was happening or did you actually have the right people around you? It's a really good question. I had a bit of both. I married a beautiful woman and now I know why I married a beautiful woman. The support I had at home and my parents were just phenomenal, phenomenal. I'm 48. Having that support still was actually really important. I think when I went to work knowing that my partners and a particular couple of people had my back, I knew they did but it really came to life. But I think as you move forward through that process, you find that you bounce off positive people and I'm consciously now making decisions around I want to go left or I want to go right and I want to work with people give me that buzz and it's actually now making those choices. Whereas if you're not making those choices you get stuck in those train tracks that Phil talked about and sometimes it's not that enjoyable and it doesn't need to be a big thing. It can be just what's a little project over here that then all of a sudden gets legs and looks totally different. So it's not necessarily about the big plan. It's about the little steps that then can turn into big actions if you let them. But it is essentially planning. It is planning. It's making choices. I initially probably thought about planning as right next 15 years. What does that look like? Where's the stock points? Where's who do I need help from? Whereas now it's actually as simple as I said to someone this morning you go out of your office you turn left for that conversation or right for that conversation. It's that simple sometimes. And it's just thinking of that, right? Now Phil, I want to really understand because I know how important networking and networks of people are to you. I've known you for quite a while. When it did come to your moment the catalyst. So moving from the high flying corporate world to your own organization and running your own business what was the catalyst for that? And were your networks of people and those people around you were they sort of carried over with you or did you just leave them? That is a fantastic question. I would say just to preface it and give context that my journey was around I think I set myself financial goals when I was younger and had no comprehension of why that might be a good or bad idea. So when I hit that point that I was seemingly becoming successful I then started thinking what's next and there was a big hole in the ground and I fell into that hole and bumped my chin on it on the way down. So that was I guess I think the trigger. In terms of networks I think the reason I dealt with it somewhat proactively was because I had a close friend who had talked about their experience in seeing a counsellor or a psychologist. So therefore I thought okay it's okay for him I'll do it as well. Like Julien I had great support at home that helps and I think out the other end part of my reason for leaving corporate was I wanted to work with real people and real companies whereas I felt the culture I was in was somewhat removed from reality. So it was I think yes there was I don't think I cut away a lot of friends and found a lot of new ones I think they just sorted themselves out pretty naturally over time. Do you think and you touched on the whole financial goals and the success piece and I've always I'm always interested to hear certain people's definitions of success. Do you think just basic goals like that Samantha play a big role even as a manager or a leader in you know understanding what people's definition of success is because like you said Phil you had no idea whether it was right or wrong what you were thinking and that can sometimes get people stuck. Do you think it's your responsibilities Samantha as a manager to almost help people understand that? Absolutely you know I think that's one of the main things as a leader and leadership isn't necessarily about the followers that we have but the other leaders that we create and so it's actually empowering each employee to understand that for themselves because then that's actually what drives them to hit your financial goals and if you're creating a conversation that isn't only about the financial goal or necessarily the business goal but you can communicate that in a way that speaks to that potential employee's bigger why then they're going to be a lot more motivated to absolutely hit and go out running to hit the business goal and in turn hit their personal goal and their bigger why. Excellent now before we go onto the what can we do and how can we actually take something away from this. Just got a question here so just I'll hand this one over to you Julie and what's the difference between regular work stress and unhealthy stress and I'll let you all answer this have a think about it. That's a really good question so I'm probably I'm probably in the middle of regular stress at the moment and it's it's actually my body now tells me where that line is so there's a few I'm going to jump into some of the answers but so if I don't go for a walk every morning with the dog I know my days are a little bit wobbly so I've got to get that out of the way so that gives me an enablement that the body's now in a good spot. I then find if it gets too busy or there's too much going on and I don't have the space to go and do the meditation or to go and do the quiet walk in the garden I can feel it lifting and when if I talk too fast if I feel my chest tighten I then go right this is probably not a good spot to be the old me would have plowed through all that 100 miles an hour and it would have been seven days a week and it wouldn't have mattered now it's about actually I don't feel right why and I'll pause and I'll finish a meeting I'll go back to the office and I won't get a coffee I'll just go for a walk around the garden so it's just listening to your body it's been in tune with your body and I think letting go through the recovery journey allowed me to understand that your body's your best temperature gauge you've got and you've got to listen to it and do you think this um we were talking as well before Samantha about mindfulness and the role that plays in a lot of organizations do you think that it is our responsibility now to start incorporating that into our culture in our workplaces so then people are in tune with their bodies you know we're at work more than we're anywhere else so is this the right time to be able to implement these sort of standards absolutely but I don't think unless the manager and leader really believes in this stuff will the employees actually take on and adopt these different things but I think that we have to we have to make it okay for our employees to really look after themselves and to not just plow through but it's the role of the manager and the employee or our team supervisors to make that okay and really get that greater understanding because if the manager's advocating for you need to have that work-life balance and they see the manager working seven days a week completely working themselves into the ground will then that follow-through from the employee just won't be there what about you Phil do you stress oh we all stress in our own special ways it's a little bit corny but I think the saying I love is if if you're not looking after yourself you're no good to anyone else so you've got to try and pick that up and force it and a little bit like Julian I'm walking the dog I find physical exercise is number one and I start the day every day with it and I don't know what I do without it and when you say mindfulness the challenge I set myself is to notice something new or smell something new or touch something new and that's now they call that mindfulness but I think yeah you can actually when you're under work stress you can go for a 40-minute walk and not even see anything around you this yeah and that's not the right space so that's a little warning sign okay yeah um just feel like breathing now thank you now I really want to get into corporate culture because we do hear this word thrown around so much we hear about engagement we talk you know hear about a lot of organizations doing things to you know enhance that corporate culture but I really really want to speak to you guys about the experiences that you've had or what you think organizations should be doing how can managers and leaders actually be creating a culture that isn't just you know corporate and friendly and exciting for people to be in but one that actually does support the mentally unwell because I know that there's a lot of actual tangible things that we can be doing but then like you touched on the Samantha it's also that well you know just being mindful and understanding so how do you think we can do this Sam? hmm it's such a big question you know like I've been saying and I'll keep charming on about this again I'm from a small business background so the application of this will be different in different industries but I really do think that it starts at the top I think it starts with the CEO and the managers and the leadership leadership board they're really being aligned in the vision cultures the vision sorry and the values and then the values trickling down I think that yeah it's really creating that environment where it makes it okay for people to be mindful and then then different other little systems in there that encourage that so like I said for us we have the Wiffle we do meditation and things like that and we find that that works really well now Phil I know you've done a lot of work with various industries and various sectors as well it's all well and good to say that and that's great Sam but Phil when it does come to organizations that aren't that nimble so we're talking about maybe your large government organizations maybe your larger corporates that don't actually have that you know that visionary CEO who's talking about this how do we make change in those types of environments if you're that person you're down the chain of command and you really want to make a difference how do we start that process wow that's a big question too and I think to be honest I find in my role because I'm not a 200 person consulting team I'm a one person consulting team it's finding what's going to work in that organization at that point in time it depends for example if you're engaged by the CEO you work from probably the top down but you know you also need the bottom up piece however putting all that aside I find there's a lot more talk about purpose and very few tools around to actually figure out what it is and put it in place so my number one recommendation is to help your people work through their purpose bit because their purpose bit might be coming from work it might be coming from what they do outside of work or it might be a bit of both maybe they're already doing it and they just don't realize it or maybe there's something they could be doing and the other important thing in that process is to harness their strengths and the things they love doing which sort of feeds into what what everyone's been saying so far and you know just touched on that change for you Julie and do you think it is about making those things happen in organization or is it more about policy how does this all come into it because I think there's a big difference you can have these policies but if you don't have people who are actually willing to adopt them and actually encourage people to talk what could are the policies right yeah I probably reflect on my journey around some people said when I was not at work and off sick well part of your challenge Julie is your work's too stress we should leave and I went through a journey of thinking about was that the right answer but actually it wasn't the right question it was what environment do you want to work in and as a firm we're going through a whole focus on purpose and we've got a great purpose as a firm but it's actually about what are the individuals want because the whole is only as good as the sum of the parts and I think to Sam's point it doesn't matter to the size you can have the visions and the piece at the top but the leaders at every team level need to operate that way and I think as we go to what's the one thing you take away from this it's if as a leader you haven't got to your own spot it's very hard to then coach and help others do theirs and if we just get caught on the metrics and the outcomes without the values being parallel you create an environment that is too stressful and I think the other piece that we haven't talked about is where it doesn't work how does it get called out because it's the unconscious behavior sometimes that actually has an impact on people well that's it like whose responsibility is this you know you've got HR then you know they might pass it off to the CEO then like you said you've got different departments are they or individually responsible and a question here which talks to you so if you see someone in your organization who you think might be struggling with mental health how do you approach them I think that's the big question here it's like as an employee of an organization I don't know where the lines are and it's almost like you need to be taught what to do and what not to do because it can be quite sensitive for a lot of people can't it yeah absolutely yeah I'm just reflecting on my experience as a manager 10 years ago now we have more I guess messaging around checking in with people and are you okay would be the classic example of that I would say when I was in a management position really not understanding this at all that would be a haphazard process whereas I hope if I was doing that rolling in today it would be a regular thing connecting in with people just at least ask the question not expecting everyone to divulge things but have some I guess pathways and knowing what to do when responses came back that weren't that were showing a bit of stress yeah I think it can be kind of counteractive though if we see fellow employees I mean then we feel that that is our whole responsibility I think that you know there's that asking of the question are you okay and being there and offering that bit of support but I really do think that then that almost has to be given and that responsibility handed over to somebody else from there otherwise it can be quite counteractive I think where did you go Julian for help yeah in your organization or outside of your organization so if I'm honest about you I went nowhere and we have all the policies and all the processes but I felt as a partner in a firm it's my responsibility to control what I do and I reflect back and it wasn't an unsafe environment it was I didn't think I could do that and actually I'm not that's not me I'm not having this problem and did you sorry did you think it was for other people not you that yeah I never talked about it before you never popped up in any conversations and when I go for help I said to my wife I can't deal with this anymore so should we then you know we've got the policies and we've got the stuff you know what happens but should we then as organizations be talking more about awareness and how to make people feel like make them make them aware of what's happening to them is there a way that we can do that yeah I don't know isn't it just as simple as a leader as a manager offering support that I'm here for you and and being just mindful and if us as a leader if we're actually in a mindful position we should be in tune to our staff if depending on the size of our team in tune to our staff really and then offer our support that way but I think it's really this can happen verbally yeah from the top down it's it's not it's not so much about the policies and everything as a manager as a leader do you actually believe in it because if you truly believe in it and you're authentic in wanting to deliver on that then this is going to pop up you'll see this happening for your staff as a manager as a leader team supervisor yeah I think it's Phil's point before about you go for your 40 minute walk but you don't notice anything that walk around the floor and you're looking at work stations or work groups or workshops and you notice that that person hasn't moved down their office for a while yes or they're working really late and I know they're busy but actually are they engaging and I think one of the things I've noticed as I walk around now I can I can see things I probably didn't see before and I think performance management is probably one of those areas that maybe we just need to be careful about in that people may not disclose but they're struggling to live and they're coming to work and actually how do you create a safe place for people to say actually I'm not performing well but I love my job but I've got this shit I've got to deal with and you don't want to have people moving on roles and going to different careers but I haven't been given the space to say help it's probably the main one so it is about that speaking up and that sharing when it does come to reluctance we've just discussed we've discussed a few factors do you think industry, sectors, job roles even sex comes into this you know feel as a male was it harder for you does sex come into it as a male? that's a totally different that's right if you hear that and I'm curious to know as to you know it is as big as what a lot of people talk about and there are stats and there's a lot of research out there but personally was it harder for you because you were a male and you had to have this bravado wow that's a good question I can only answer it in hindsight and what I know in hindsight is different I think what it comes down to is a personal and a corporate quality which is humility about understanding that you don't know everything and I think as organisations if they realise they don't have a great system in place for this they will want to improve the same in your own personal life if you know you're not on top of something you don't pretend you are so I would hope that every manager would have those qualities and maybe that's you're going to struggle to get it in a big organisation but maybe that is your key challenges to have those leadership qualities and I agree with that point you said you as a manager can't deal with everything but you've got to have a plan of action you know the plan that you go to because if someone discloses something you go suck it up you know that's not going to be any good for anyone right so that's not a plan of action you've got to have a really clear view of what's appropriate what about you Sam you speak you're a huge advocate of this Sam you do a lot of public speaking on this what's the reaction from people when you do get up because I I feel I have a sense that you know it's obviously becoming a lot more known people are talking now about it you know we're talking about it people are engaging in conversation what is the sense like from other people listening to you I think that a lot of people one of the big things I get out of it is that to see somebody on stage being vulnerable sharing their story it encourages them wait a second maybe I can do this too like maybe I can look at this illness or other people that are going through these same things in a different light and then empowers them and I think makes it okay to be vulnerable and as leaders and managers and people in life we've always got to or it feels like almost we have to put up this facade and that in a job as a manager as a mom as a sister we've got to be a certain somebody and I think this is what mental illness is doing for our society it's making it okay to just be you and I think that by sharing your story it allows and encourages and empowers other people to do the same and bring that sense of vulnerability into the way we live our lives which is natural all the rest I think is faked and forced and I think that's what it really does do you think it's been therapeutic for you sharing as well oh cathartic although it's been it's been two extremes so the RUOK team are fantastic and we had the RUOK day back in 2014 and that was walking into work going yep it's all there great sitting in my office going I just wish someone had come and asked me if I was okay and they didn't because I was ready to just scream but then I thought oh okay Julian you can look at it that way or this year why don't you tell your story and we had a video conference set up we had Sydney we had Melbourne we had Perth and I'm sitting there going I've told this story to sort of one or two people I've never told it to 250 I actually went a bit too far it was a bit too vulnerable and it rocked me a little bit for a couple of weeks it really did but it just showed me where my personal boundaries were and I sort of flip between the word vulnerable and authentic and vulnerable is maybe giving more of you than you traditionally would but actually where is your authentic line and who are you and what do you stand from what you don't stand for so I sort of play them both together I think some people look at you telling your story it's been very vulnerable but as we do this this is the authentic us this is not I'm telling anything because I need to and I think the more we can all be authentic and feel safe to do so we don't have to have this webcast and I think that's a massive ambition to have but it is achievable yeah definitely I think that's amazing you know we go back to a few minutes ago talking about these policies and these things we need to have in place but just simple sharing you know communicating with the rest of your organisation your story sharing that being authentic and the amount of people you can't actually measure it but we don't need to measure everything there's a ripple there's a ripple that goes on yeah it just happens and you know you could have helped someone massively that day or even more people so I think that's something else that we should take out of these discussions that it doesn't all need to be written down you know in stone for your organisation it could just be simple things if you have an idea just go and do it and almost surprise people with it another question we've got a few coming here but one that was answered in the pre-registration that did come through which I think is something we should touch on so Australian wage earners are reportedly some of the longest work some of the longest hours in the world we know that what effect does this have on our mental health so I'd really like to discuss the impact on modern work culture the intensity the fact that we feel like we need to be at our desk for a certain amount of time how has this impacted any of you do you want me to go first yes yep so I think the old me was getting into the office just after seven yep I was leaving at six thirty seven eight o'clock whatever it was flying everywhere a hundred miles an hour I thought that was good it wasn't was it effective yeah it probably was but was it really effective no and I think sometimes we feel we need to be seen to be doing things to be busy if I see people working late in the office it's what are you actually doing and when is it needed to be done by as against well that's fine I'll leave them to it so I think there's a piece of calling out that that time but I think one of the things we talked about before is we're moving to an environment where work is a lot more flexible and whether we are working one job two jobs three jobs we need to have the ability to self-regulate yes and I think if you feel like you're working late because you have to then I think there's a question you just need to debate with yourself first so yet again something else simple that we can do for our employees within the workplace you know why you here is there a better way of doing things what are your thoughts on that film I think it's I was thinking about that elastic and you stretch it and stretch it so the more you play that tribal corporate game you and I've been through this myself you I don't know why but you tend to elevate your own importance and your job role above that of your family and friends at times you think this is what I should do and then that elastic band gets stretched further and the more you stretch it the bigger the break so I think a lot of people we joke about midlife crisis but to be honest I think that is that's all from that elastic band breaking and people realising the goals they thought they had were not really things that meant something to them and when it goes bang it's us some people by sports car some other people have a breakdown yeah I'll do both I'll do both well that's what's a bit scary because you know we used to think of mental health as something that was a condition that we were born with but we're all at risk of it now aren't we and I think you know going back to your experience Sam and we're talking before you're working at the moment in Byron Bay and that's amazing to get out and you know be amongst the nature and stuff like that so is that something that you you know you're still working hard but you're finding other ways to do it is there something that we can learn from that absolutely you know it was actually a week ago where I have been travelling and it's the end of the year so we normally I guess a lot of people are making them plans for 2017 and I was really checking in with myself and getting quite harsh on myself with why can't I get these bigger projects done and I just made the decision that you know when I needed to go away spend a week in Byron and take the time out in nature because I know that works for me and I talked to people about this and they're like why are you going to Byron again you know you've been on holidays but I had to make the decision that you know what that works for me and within four hours I redid a sales process I've done a marketing plan and things are working really well so I think another part of that is you've just got to relinquish the guilt maybe for some of these decisions and that works for me so I've had to relinquish that guilt and then follow through with that so can I go to say my personal off-site so being in Caravan parks on the south coast I think I need to trade up to Byron Bay yeah just pitching you on your own you like it on the bed just like yeah this is a life there's little rituals I think that you can have in life obviously and my little ritual was when I was off work and I was really lucky I had sort of 12 months to get better but I wasn't a bad spot um was I'd go up to the coffee shop and I'd take my Kindle and I'd just have a coffee yes and I'd just sit there and I got to know the news agent and Susie at the coffee shop and that's my little ritual then if I'm sort of things are a bit wobbly I'll say right well Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon I just go and have my little ritual and I think it's true scribble some notes and then move on that's great but actually taking the space to do that for me I never did that before yeah yeah um just on you know going through the healing process if you can I'm not quite sure if that's right terminology but I've got a question here so we have spoken about the bigger why meditation mindfulness and listening to the body um someone online is wondering whether any of you see it a place for our faith in sustaining spiritual presence yes yes yes it's easy yes yeah yes definitely and look I've had a Christian upbringing and I think that where you fit in the world and your role and what you connect with I think there's a very important place for that and everyone's got their own version of it did you go back to it do you feel a little bit yeah yeah it's sort of it's it's part of me and it was maybe it was a little bit of me that got lost and it's um that just made me think in a different way and that really is like the personal thing we're talking about because it's not something that your organization is responsible for but I think for a lot of organizations letting people know that everyone does have a faith in some aspect and it's about them accepting that isn't it you know when we look at the word mentally ill compared to mentally well mentally ill has I whereas well we I actually think oh you're good oh you're good oh and my mind is blown yeah and I just I actually think that that sense of belonging that I'm a part of something greater is it's the we and that we're all in we're all in this together if it's at work personally I actually think that's the key to being well and you know this even sparks a conversation as to well what does mentally well mean and what is mental health because perhaps just when we're having a mental health crisis that's just simply us forgetting that we're part of a greater collective and that we've forgotten who we are and so we get lost for a little while and the great thing with that is that then we can transcend that adversity and that mental health crisis into remembering who we are and then hopefully making a greater contribution back to community so let me just that's probably a good segue into this last question we have from someone once identified do you think you can fix a mental health crisis on your own or is it something you're saying that you need other people around you correct yeah no I definitely think that you need that support base there I think understanding I call them wellness pillars to you but you know that sense of belonging I call it joining finding your tribe because once you've got that tribe around you they'll support you then finding a bigger why from there that bigger why I think really helps with the ebbs and flows of life and then getting that sense of purpose from various different sources in case one of them falls over but then understanding well what are them rituals daily, weekly, yearly and really not not taking on the guilt for looking after yourself and setting them boundaries what is okay what isn't okay how am I going to communicate them boundaries because if we don't know how to communicate our boundaries then even though we've got the best intention to not be working late if we don't know how to communicate that to our boss or to our self and remind our self then all them wellness pillars will just fall away one of the things we probably haven't covered is purpose doesn't need to be this big thing and it doesn't need to be a work thing and obviously that's really important given the amount of hours we spend in it but how do you when you reflect on what gives you joy what are the what is it and for me it was catering my kids Aussie rules team it was that hour and a half on a Tuesday afternoon where it was right that just took me in a different space and when it wasn't happening I thought something's missing so I had to find another thing to put in because the football season's over did you have any rituals Phil? or do you? yeah I fairly structured way that I go about my work in terms of I guess faith and philosophy I think if you're very logical and is that left brain is that right? that's what I am and I get accused of being quite regularly I think faith philosophy or rituals can help you get out of that left brain space and into something a little bit more creative and holistic that you often need in these situations and corporations tend to be pretty left brain by their nature as well so it's a parallel there you used the word creativity I'd never done anything in music other than you to recorder which was not very good oh I hate this you had my recorder yeah I knew like my year two was before you were born but never mind I took up guitar and I'm now playing Sweet Caroline nice didn't bring it with me I apologize but that whole whole different part of your brain and different part of who you are getting opened up it's just phenomenal well it's funny because we always in the past have spoken about a midlife crisis as a negative thing and you know this person almost teasing them in a way whereas actually it's amazing it's quite a good thing yeah it's amazing so excited for the weekend now okay now we're almost at the end so any final questions please send them through but I really just want to turn back to our panel and just ask your number one tip for either employers or other anyone doesn't need to be in a leadership role actually watching this whether or you know it is a tip for someone who may be experiencing this or maybe it is you know for a tip for an organisation that does want to help people so I'll turn to you first Phil okay so I think whether it's a prevention strategy or a rebuilding strategy this whole personal purpose thing is really important but what's more important is having the tools to actually break it down and make it into something and what I've found is that everyone is different so you can't give people a recipe for them to follow and that gives them the answer you've got to help understand what's going on in their lives or not you making those judgments but giving them the tools to understand what's going on and what this plan could look like and then that that could evolve over time and that may involve peer group coaching or peer groups along the way whether that's within work or outside of work as well I think that's extraordinarily effective and I've found over time peer group support is a no brainer yeah that's my tip um yeah you know I think that if a business is looking to really implement this and create a mentally well culture that there's the opportunity to actually ask the people and really get the people's buy-in with that and how where changes can be made and if that was done in an anonymous way I'm just thinking that the people are going to know where the roadblocks are in the organization where the stress is coming from or what can be fixed so I think absolutely involving the people in that process is helpful the other part I think it starts with you there's a really great YouTube video Simon Sinek The Power of Wire it starts with why absolutely watch that and then there's Brinay Brown who has a TED Talk on the power of vulnerability and so Seth Godin's tribe TED Talk and they're three really powerful TED Talks that I think everybody will get a lot of good takeaways from as well mine's probably a bit more basic if you feel wobbly ask for help and that wobbly doesn't need to be that end of the spectrum it can be right over here because actually doing that is the first step to being the best you can be and you can't help anybody else about filling buckets unless you're dealing with your wobbly Excellent, thank you and I think you know when it comes down to where you talk organizational, employer, leader, manager we're all people at the end of the day and I think we just need to remember that have a deep breath talk to people about it there was something I saw a few weeks ago and it was Jeff Kennett from Beyond Blue saying that he wants to make this KPI for CEOs in the future which I think as we move forward there's going to be so many things like this coming about so we really need to put something in place now emotionally, physically and also mentally to make sure that we help people and give them as much opportunity to come forward and help them as possible so I'd like to thank you all it's been amazing just to hear your stories and then hear your thoughts on how we can help other people online so thank you very much for coming in today guys thank you it's been great so once again thank you everyone online for joining us we really hope that you at least got something out of today today's discussion sorry whether it is for your organization or yourself personally and remember if you do need any assistance with anything Lifeline is always there on 131114 so thank you again for joining keep a look out for the recording and we hope to see you at future events bye for now