 Hi, this is a program, What's Happening, which occurs about every month to discuss the state of our very chaotic world. I believe it's called What's Going On. What's Going On rather than What's Happening? Well, that- What's Happening was a show in the 70s. I don't even remember something about this guy, Mark. He doesn't know anything about Marvin Gaye. So What's Going On and What's Happening is sort of the same problem, I think, isn't it? Right. Anyway, so my name is Sandy Baird and I'm here with Mark Estrin, and Kurt made it a talk about what's going on in the world today. And I guess we'll start with something that's very local, which is the whole issue involving Burlington Telecom. And we want to remind our viewers that the decision to sell Burlington Telecom, which is a city-owned utility at this point, is on the city council for debate tonight. And it's a very important meeting. The mayor is going to decide essentially to sell Burlington Telecom either to an out-of-state company. I think it might be a Canadian company. Is that, do you know? Out-of-country, okay. Yeah, out-of-country. It might be a Canadian. There was sort of a discussion about another one that withdrew that I think was out-of-state, but I'm not certain what. Wait, are you accurately saying that? Miro is not going to decide to sell anything. No, it's the city council, right? The city council is going to make a decision to be among three bids tonight and whittle it down to two bids. And then those two bids will be decided on the 30th in the beginning of the 30th. So it's either three or two, and Miro is not making any decisions, but he certainly made a presentation, continues to make presentations about what he wants. And I think what the mayor has said what he wants to do is that he wants to sell it to the highest bidder for the most money. And he announced that. But Mark, I think, is quite correct that the decision will be up to city council. My question is, if city council goes the way that we... that I would like it to go, which is to sell it to a local co-op, would the mayor have the chance to veto that? Do you know? I don't think so. I don't believe so. Do you know? Do we know? I've not heard that in following the story. Even if the local co-op happened to be the highest bidder. It isn't, though. Right. That's the point. Right. And what he has said, I went to my NPA the other night simply because of this issue. And my representatives, Sharon Boucher, my representatives are Sharon Boucher and Richard Dean. And Richard Dean, who is a Democrat and who is, I think, quite pro-Miro, one of Miro's cohort, a member of his cohort, was saying that it made sense to sell it to the highest bidder because if we don't, then Citibank can sue us because they won't get all the money that they... Right. I guess. And that was his reason. And I think that's the mayor's reason that they are not, at this moment, thinking about the great thing that could happen if the co-op bought it. They're thinking more in terms of bottom line. But... And I think that's sort of correct, isn't it? But is that wrong? I don't... I don't know, at least Allen Mattson, who is the chair of the local effort, disputes that. Yeah. And I don't have the figures or even don't understand all the terms on which he disputes that. But it is not clear that the Citibank claim and especially the hypothesis that they're going to sue anybody over whatever is the case, although it does seem that both Nero and the people that are at least online in seven days in Burlington Free Press and Digger that are talking about it, the commentary is largely to agree with that. And I think that that may not be true in a sophisticated analysis. I agree that I dispute it too, but I don't have the financial expertise to really comment on it. But even if it were true. Does the highest bid, does it cover the existing debt that Citibank holds? Yeah, I think that's what's... So there wouldn't be any deficiency in the event that we're... Correct. But that's my understanding of the issue. But I wish that the city weren't being so bottom line, kind of capitalist oriented. This is a great resource that the city now owns. So what are we losing by this going to a foreign... And when I use the term foreign, I mean even out of state. Also a private entity. Right. This is going to be a private entity that we're owning, right? Sure. One of the... One thing that we're losing, assuming that that's corrected all, is that one of the companies, and I don't remember which, owns a TV station which accepts advertising from a pro-Nazi. So what you lose is the political normal that, for instance, Burlington would bring to the station. And it's under the control of God knows who, with God knows what limits. Right. Again, probably going to the highest bidder of advertising. Exactly. But not only that, the going to the highest bidder will be a private company. Of course, the co-op is also a private entity too. It's not city owned. With an agenda, sure. No, not necessarily with the agenda. No. Let me tell you why I think it should be controlled by the citizens. Because if it's controlled by a co-op, remember that those are members and they probably are going to be largely Burlingtonians who are members of the co-op. I was involved a while ago, a couple of years ago, with this big struggle over Burlington Telecom that I got myself into. I was aware at the time that Burlington, that there was a faction in the city that wanted to snatch Al Jazeera English off the air. Right. Burlington Telecom at that time offered Al Jazeera English, which I regarded as a very important voice in this community. And there were only two cities in this country that had Al Jazeera English, Burlington Telecom and also Buckeye, Ohio. Why Buckeye? I was suspected because it has a large Arab population. It's near Dearborn, Michigan and so on. The yellow springs in Ohio was always considered a very liberal... But they didn't have it. Right. It was Buckeye. And Buckeye does have an Arab population. Oh, okay. So that's what I figured. Anyway, so I got involved really with Burlington Telecom at that time. And we had numbers of hearings on keeping Al Jazeera English on the air. And what we argued was it's a free speech issue. Sure. We didn't argue that it was pro-Arab or anti-Israel or pro-Israel or anti-U.S. It was simply a voice that had to be heard. A private company doesn't have to have Al Jazeera English. But we argued because it was a publicly owned utility that free speech is constitutionally protected. And we won that fight. And I couldn't believe the numbers of people that showed up in favor of Al Jazeera English. The people who were against it were like seven. Okay. And that's what I think. So the premise is that that type of discretion on the part of the utility will be gone. Totally. For instance, one time Comcast called me and asked me why I didn't get Comcast services. And I said because you guys don't have Al Jazeera English. And you know what they said to me? Does anybody have Al Jazeera English? Why would anybody have Al Jazeera English in the United States? Well, that was why. That's why I got so involved in this controversy. And if you think about present news, no matter what you think about what Trump says or what the opposition says, mainstream media is not free. It is totally, I think, biased and totally controlled by the corporations. That was an agenda. Right. We need to have alternate voices. And I believe that if citizens control Burlington Telecom that it would be a venue for free speech. That idea will be preserved. That's right. I mean if they don't, members can beat them up or something. But certainly if you sell this important infrastructure to a private company, it's going to be like every other private company and private media control. One of the arguments against Burlington Telecom being owned locally is that locals don't have sufficient experience. Right. They don't have enormously deep pockets. All they have is people. Is there any validity to that? To me, I think there's no validity. Because we have in front of us the premier example of why that argument is wrong, which is to just think back, and it's completely analogous to the struggle between Shaw's and the Co-op for the local downtown supermarket. Exactly. And it was the same arguments. Shaw's, they have a lot of experience where these little guys sell brown rice. What do they know about anything? Is running a grocery store the same as a high-tech industry? First of all, you've got to remember that Burlington Telecom right now has a very excellent manager and a company which is already managing it. And it's turned Burlington Telecom around also financially. Okay, well that's an important thing for the bottom line crowd. Right, and the Co-op would keep that company. The question about whether running a grocery store is similar, I think it's more complicated. You have far more dealers to be dealing with. You have a membership to be dealing with on issues that are not strictly bottom dime issues and both the structure and the management of the Burlington Co-op, which is by the way now, has the largest per capita membership of any in the country. And they're expanding it to the south end. Right. And so the whole idea that local Hicks can't take over a big complex operation has already been disproven in a situation that's completely inelegant. So we've been down this path before. Yes, we have. But Burlington Electric. Right. Burlington Electric is a municipal utility also. Yeah. And that happened in the 20s. Right. You know, I don't understand the mayor's short-sightedness. This could make... Really? Well, I guess I do. I do, but I mean... I mean, I think that the guy is a businessman. Why doesn't he see this as a huge business opportunity and a way to make Burlington special? You know, I don't... I think he's... Well, you just said it. He is very short-sighted. You know, he's short-sighted about a lot of economic decisions. And who says that these big companies... Short-sighted, I think the site is going over here instead of over here and has the same focal length. Right. But it's a different angle of interest. Is it because the administration is more familiar with that template? Yes, he's a developer. Yeah. He's a developer. He has never shown any huge interest in humane kind of development or alternate kind of development. He, of course, is trying to... is going to develop the downtown mall. He was very... Ultimately. All these... basically for-profit developments that he says are going to provide affordable housing, there's no affordable housing in this city. And the stuff that he's putting in, for instance, in the mall, it's not going to be affordable. Right. It's a joke, kind of. Every day I'm struck by that because every day when I wander around Burlington, probably more now than when I taught at Burlington College, there's homeless everywhere. Everywhere. And all the shelters are full. Nobody has any place that they can afford to rent. Very few people. It seems to me, you know? Yeah. Going back to the question of control of content. Yeah. We have an example of that today, which maybe we can talk about later on the show. Right now we're talking about Burlington Telecom. But for instance, how many of you out there, this is Monday, know that yesterday there was a huge inconsequential election in Venezuela. It wasn't on any of the mainstream thing, at least by the time I left my house. And it was reported as being not reported. And where you found that out, by the way, it was on Al Jazeera. Oh, really? Did you see it online or something? Yeah, online on Al Jazeera. And I believe RT, too, which is also people... That's been taken off Burlington Telecom. I didn't know that. It was on Burlington Telecom. And RT, frankly, is even better than Al Jazeera English. Okay, but anyway, we do not know that there was a big election yesterday in Venezuela. And we specifically don't know, and maybe it's why we don't know, is that Maduro and Charismo made enormous gains by far the majority of the governorships that were to be elected. And it's being celebrated down there as a huge election victory. And here we don't even know about it. Do you suspect that the lack of reporting would have been a little different if the results were the opposite? It could be, yeah. And I also suspect that if Burlington Telecom, if the city of Burlington would own its telecommunications, it would not be neglected. By a co-op, right? Yeah, but we're not neglecting it either, which is another thing, you know. Who says that a big important company will allow public access? I think they have to, maybe, to a certain extent, but not the way Burlington Telecom will. I mean, it allows us to be on-making programs. I'm not certain that that occurs on Comcast, does it? I think the rules have changed since, you know, in the past couple of decades regarding having that public access requirement. What are the changes? My understanding is that it's not a requirement anymore. Right, well, anyway, if that's the case, that's another thing that Burlington loses. You know, there's lots of... there's at least three public channels. There's 15, 16, and 17 in this channel. And it allows anybody, really, to make programs. And that's important. Even us? Even us, yeah. Right, and the alternative is always going to go back to the highest bidder. Exactly. And that's really what I think that the mayor is going to recommend tonight. Well, he's already recommended it. What? He's already recommended it. Yeah, he already has recommended it. I don't have any clue of how the city council will go. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. People are so convinced nowadays of bottom line reasoning that very few, I would say, politicians have any idea of a vision. They're so anxious to protect what little we have, and I don't blame them for that, because people have very little in this country anymore. Well, I think a smart thing for both city council and MIRROR tonight... Delay. ...is to delay. And the way you can delay it is by cutting the three down to two, but one of the two is a Berlin... It's a co-op. It's the co-op ownership. But you're assuming that the mayor's administration is sympathetic to this co-op? No, no. I know they're not. What I'm assuming is that we'll give another two weeks before the powers that be to apply their power to convince more people to pull off this sort of short-sided, other-sided bottom lineism and so that it can be acclaimed instead of a real struggle. I think that it's going to be... If the time right now, the extra two weeks, is more valuable than excluding... Right. ...which will be very, very... But it's valuable for whom? But it's unvaluable. It's anti-valuable. I'm assuming the administration cares about that. No, it does care to some degree. It's anti-valuable. If it's something that people point out, oh, this demonic, you know, Miro administration and all of that, to take away that thorn in the side, to take away those two weeks of... By affording the additional time? By giving... I think that's reasonable. That's my prediction. Do folks think that that's actually going to happen? I don't know. I think he's getting nervous because, as some of the city councilors, there's virtually no opposition on city council. There's a couple, maybe, of people who can be in opposition to the mayor. And that's the progressive... He was outlined in Seven Days, Max Tracy in Ward 2, I think. And actually, the two kind of Republicans sometimes oppose him, too. That's Kurt Wright and Hartnett. But otherwise, the council is pretty Democratic and they go with the mayor. Based on what you're saying, it seems like this is pretty much a done deal. Well, that's why we have to go tonight. So I'll remind all of our viewers. If you're a Democrat, you would want to postpone the allegations about Democratic manipulations. You would want to say, see? We really have two representatives now. We're not excluding the bad blessings. They might go with that. They might go with that. Do you feel that the issues have... the way you've both eloquently expressed them on this program, do you think the citizens of Burlington have been properly... They've been overwhelmingly all the calls. Every poll that's been taken, they want the co-op. Overwhelmingly. I mean, that's what I learned the other night. Are we preaching to the choir? Are we... The three of us? No, no, no. No, I would say that if you follow the Burlington Free Press comments... Yeah. Yeah. Not overwhelmingly that at all. No, I know, but I was... got a report on all the polls, the phone polls that were being taken. Maybe you're right, the Free Press certainly isn't pro-co-op. Well, and I think even seven days is not... I know, because I think in also the bottom line. Not seven days, the readers of the people who choose to comment. I'm not talking about the articles. Could be, because there was a scandal about Burlington Telecom, which I don't know if we need to get into it or not. Right, right, and I was going to actually ask about that. People often referred to, when do I get my $17 million back? Yeah, it's not, you know, and I was kind of aware of that scandal because at that time, Jonathan Leopold was on our board, so I actually talked to him about what happened and so forth. And I came out with thinking, what did he do? He took 70, he took. He paid Burlington Telecom $17 million of city money to a city entity. I don't know. I mean, and I understood that the council was aware of it. It was to save Burlington Telecom. Now, was that a bad deal? This was during the KISS administration. And did that ultimately lead to his demise? Demise as a politician in the state. Yes, it did. The demise of the prox. Yeah, it really led to the demise of the prox. Absolutely, because KISS and Leopold was portrayed as sort of a crook. I don't, I never, you know, I wasn't aware of the ins and outs of it, but I came down on the side of Leopold and he wasn't my favorite person in the world either. I'd fought with him numbers of times on other issues, especially when he was on the Burlington College Board. It was misappropriation. I don't know that. I wouldn't use that word because he wasn't convicted of that either. He went to court, the Republicans sued him. It was appealed, a couple of Republicans sued him, not all of them, a couple of them. So this was a criminal matter? Was it a civil matter? No, a civil matter and they sued him like in a taxpayer suit, maybe, which is very hard to get in the first place, a taxpayer suit. And it went and they, the court found four Leopold and then they appealed it and the Supreme Court upheld that. So I don't really know if he, quote, misappropriated funds. He certainly didn't think so. There may be a technical meaning for that word. Yeah. I mean, you guys are lawyers. Yeah, but there's no technical meaning for it. It's like, if you take education funds, right, and put them to build a road, even though they're both state funds, it's not what it's supposed to be done with. I would call it that. Yeah, but the other allegation was that... I guess you gotta look at the intent. Yeah. Right. Absolutely you have to look at the intent. So I said, when I talked to him about it, in fact, I went down to city council and spoke on his behalf because he did not intend that. What his intention was was to save Rowlington Telecom. Right? I mean, I don't know. Is that misappropriation? I don't know. I don't know. I just know that he didn't think so, and there wasn't an intent that I could see that he did. Okay, but he was basically running out of town about it. But a lot of people have said exactly this. Where's my $17 million? Yes. I want my $17 million back. And that's been an effective... I want my $17 million back. And if these guys are going to pay $50,000, and these guys are going to pay $35 million, I'm going to get my $17 million back easier. With the $50 million folks. Right. But there's a lot of people also who say they don't care. They want the co-op to own it. So I don't know. I mean, people are so aware now of corruption. And Mark's right. It was the demise of the progs next time around. Kiss was out. And Moreau was in. Right? So could this decision have been put up for a referendum? Or should it have? You can always do a referendum. The question is whether it's binding or not. Whether it's binding. And it would not have been binding, because the city has the... I guess if you get enough signatures, you can get a binding referendum. I've done those before. Not binding. But anyway, so it's a very important issue, I think, for the future of Burlington. And it's on tonight. I would like to expand the issue, actually. I think it's an important issue. This sounds ridiculous. But it's an important issue for the country. I agree with that. I totally agree with that. And because it's an important issue for the country, it's an important issue for the world. Because what this country does is so determinative of what's going on. I mean, certainly we set trends, especially in the area of media. And the dimensions that I'm thinking about are whether we want to continue in this kind of narrow-framed capitalist mode, or to think more normatively about cooperative mode. To think more normatively about communities owning things and not the 1% or this particular owning things. And this little decision in Burlington is exactly about that. It's whether we want to say, oh, this person is paying 50 this base and 35, it's clear. Or we want to say, wait a minute. The value of what we're doing has to do with this organization, has to do with the level of community input, the future, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that it's a much bigger issue than the... I agree. Especially since city, I mean, worldwide. If you want to look at where resistance politics is really being practiced to capitalism, it's in cities. It's not in... It's in cities like Barcelona, which has a female mayor who is very progressive and is advocating for cities to take control of their own economies versus private companies. But it's beyond that. It's in the mind is what I'm saying. The first thing you think of is power of a person, or a small group of people who are used to exercising power. And then sort of the last thing you think of is, oh, we should all have the divide this power. And that goes into workers' co-ops and owner co-ops and community gardens, community agriculture. What do you think about in Cuba? Do we have a precedent for this in the context of media? No, that's why it's so important to set one. We do have a precedent in the context of the culture. In the context of the co-op. In Burlington. I'm at worldwide. Because what you're talking about is an important issue. We could be building on Burlington being a leader in the thought process of communitarianism. We've already got a good start on that. Yeah, we do. And Vermont already has a good start on that in the country. And so if you just allow this as thought issue to spread, I think it's very, very important. And if Burlington collapses, it's already an understanding of cooperatives down into who's paying the most money at this moment, that's a big collapse. It's much bigger than the law. I can't agree with you more. I really think it's an incredibly important issue. And it would certainly set a trend, I think. Absolutely. That's what I'm getting. Look, the co-op was a similar battle. It was really a heated battle. But at that time we had a mayor that was a progressive. I'm not a progressive, never been a progressive. But they're powerful. But I'm talking about in the context of media. I mean, given the way the media is going with social media and the importance of media in politics and the fact that the two seem to be in bed with one another now. Exactly. Well, I mean, this would be an aberration. Exactly. And it would be, it's really, to me, the most important thing we can do to resist Trumpism is to build alternate institutions. That's why I think that Burlington College is such a tragedy. That was truly an alternate institution. And now that's gone. And if we really want to resist the trend of globalization and global power of corporations. Of the few. Right, we have to build alternate institutions. And that's why I think that he's totally right. It would set a model for the whole world. And it would guarantee at least a little bit free speech, which mainstream media doesn't even have any of it, as far as I can tell. You know? But anyway, I think maybe we should remind our viewers that Burlington Telecom, the meeting tonight is at City Hall and public gets a chance to speak about that at 7.30, I think. Right? So please come and say anything you want, by the way. I welcome free speech. In fact, because of my conflict about Al Jazeera, because I fought so hard about Al Jazeera, I was on the advisory board for Burlington Telecom at one time. Not the important one, the less important one. There was a little advisory committee. And I fought for free speech so much that I got on that committee. And all the people that were on that committee were against Burlington Telecom and against Al Jazeera. But I fought, had fought so hard that one guy took a kind of liking to me and got Glenn Beck to have me on his show. I was on Glenn Beck, you know, who he is or not. Advocating free speech. Because the question was, should we have Glenn Beck on Burlington Telecom? I said certainly, why not? Free speech is free speech. But they were so shocked. If their conditions placed on it, it's no longer free speech. But they were so shocked that I was invited. One guy, who's Jeffrey Kaufman, who was on that committee, got me to speak on Glenn Beck's show. But anyway, so we probably should... And remember that if I'm correct, which may not be the case, it's not just tonight. If you're watching this in the replay, there's another two weeks, which may be where you're watching this, where this question is still in play. And that there's still time to... There, if I'm right. I mean, I could be wrong. And the co-op is out tonight, you know. But in which case, it's too late. Too late. But maybe we should talk a little bit about what else is going on. And maybe we should switch our attention a little bit to Europe, where there's a struggle going on between the central government of Spain and a province in the northeast of Spain, correct? Northeast, correct. Catalonia. And that's a big political issue right now about whether or not Catalonia will become independent from Spain. It's important because those kinds of local struggles are occurring throughout Europe, really. Catalonia is not the only one. And in Western Europe, aside from Scotland, this is new for quite some time. There's been one, though, that's been ongoing forever, and that's Ireland. Northern Ireland. Right, yeah, Ireland and Scotland. What we're taking over by the English centuries ago have always wanted to be independent. Northern Ireland doesn't, but Ireland has wanted to be independent. Northern Ireland wants to stay a part of Britain, correct? Right. Okay, anyway, so Kurt especially had some strong feelings about that, and so maybe we would start there. Is it a good idea that Catalonia break away from Spain or not? They had a referendum, and like 90% of Catalonians in that referendum voted to separate, right? Well, let's unpack that. Yeah. I mean, about the referendum, about the 90% and all of that. Right, so what does it all mean? Okay, well, what do you think it means? It's very clear of the intention. Well, let's go back to it. What's it? What's it? The referendum or the independence movement? No, well, the referendum. All right. What happened? What kind of referendum was? Who got to vote? What were the conditions under which they were voting, et cetera? Do you know? No. Okay, do you? I mean, it was the Catalonians, right? Well, first of all, the election was before it went, declared unconstitutional and illegal. So if anybody was going to the polls at all, they would be performing criminal act with respect to their national government. So it's as if, you know, the U.S. said, I know in Burlington you're going to vote on Burlington Telecom on Monday night, but that's illegal if you show up you're subject to arrest. And not only did they say that, but they brought out the National Guard and the Army who did everything they could to interrupt the election going on. And so the turnout among Catalonians was not great. I think 60% didn't get to the polls. There's something in there. And it was a relatively bloody affair for Western European standards. And the people who did come were subject to violence. Right. So that's first of all what the referendum was, taking place in that. So then what do you make of that particular vote? Well, of the people who voted, 90% voted pro-independence. Right. Well, so what does that mean? I'm not sure what it really means under those conditions. Well, anyway, Kurt, I think you had some thoughts. Well, I mean it doesn't have any legal binding effect. You never did, did it? Never did. But who decides what's legal? Well, that's the issue here. If you've got an independent entity, they can make a claim that they decide, the people decide. And the government of Spain may think differently. All right. Okay. But you seem to favor keeping the Spanish state together. I do. Okay. And maybe you could say why rather than, because I don't think anybody, I don't think other people think that way. I believe that the model of the European Union has been relatively successful in the respect that they're, for an inordinate amount of time, there has not been a war in Western Europe. The Germans, the French, and the British have enjoyed a relatively long time period of peace, which is really unprecedented. And you put Spain in that category, too? I've put Spain in that category, too. And Spain is part of Europe. Certainly. All right. And the Balkanization in Eastern Europe didn't work out too well in the Southern Balkans. You mean like Yugoslavia, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So you would say that the Catalan should not become independent? I don't believe they should. Or Scotland? I have my own views about Scotland, but ultimately, no, I don't. Or Brexit. Right. I'm certainly against Brexit. Mm-hmm. Okay, so if you were going to, if I were going to counter that, what I would, if you don't mind, I would counter that by saying, I don't think the EU has been terrifically successful in stopping war. And I'll tell you why. They don't go to war against each other, those tribes. Right. The British tribe doesn't go anymore against the German tribe anymore. Which they did. Quite frequently. Which they did in World War I and Round II, World War II. And before that. Right. They do go to war in other parts of the world. Right. Because the EU is not only a market arrangement, it is also a military alliance. Sure. And it's called NATO. And NATO goes to war everywhere. Well, NATO and the EU, you're claiming that these are the same exact things? Yes. Pretty much, yes. I am. I'm saying that the EU is a financial arrangement, not a democratic arrangement either. It is not democratic. I mean, look at the Greeks. They're not particularly democratic. It's a bank. Sure. And it has a military alliance. So no, they don't fight with each other anymore, except they're damn determined to fight with Russia. But they go to war everywhere else. Anywhere the United States tells them to go to war, they go to war. Is that any different from the way it always was? No. Maybe without the direction of the United States. They used to go to war against each other, as we know. In addition to other places. Right. They don't go to war with each other, but they go to war in Afghanistan, they go to war in the Middle East, they go to war. I don't entirely agree with that. They go to economic war with each other. That's true too. Well, they don't really, do they? Yes, of course. I mean, who's forcing Greece into the situation it's in? Germany. Yeah. That's what I mean. So, I think... Depending on how we're defining war then. Well, no, no. I'm defining it militarily. Right, I was. He's defining it economically. Well, no, I'm not defining it economically. I'm saying it's a question of power and power relations. And it's the same power relations going on in the EU. As always. It doesn't have people shooting each other yet, except it will. It can. You know, if the natives get too uppity. Well, they haven't shot the Greeks yet, have they? No. But, you know, they've ruined them. They haven't shot us yet. And they're not going... You think they're going to shoot Americans? Of course. Who are you talking about? Not the EU. But power resists usurpation. You know, and they see it at any other thing. And I think, you know, it's only a little bit of time until the guns are pulled out against us. Because there are so many guns there. There's a reason that... Oh, we should talk about that. That the police are being militarized, you know. It's not so they, you know, have fun shining their weapons. But they do that, too. I bet you. So what's going to be the end result here? Well, I did read some interesting stuff about why Catalonia should stay within Spain. And it gave me some pause, in a way. But my feeling is that they should be independent, as you know. But one of the reasons is that they want independence is that Catalonia, as you probably know, is the richest part of Spain. Right. And it is the most prosperous part, and it drives the engine of the whole Spanish state, I suppose, in terms of taxation, I guess. Sure. Whatever. Especially given the economic difficulties that Spain faced in the last ten years. In fact, Spain probably has suffered because it's part of the EU financially. In fact, that whole southern tier of states. Interestingly enough, the Catholic states. Yeah. Italy, Spain, and Greece, which is not Catholic, but it's Orthodox. But all of those have suffered from the domination of the northern European countries, right? Financially? Well, have they suffered, or have they always been slightly poorer than the northern? They've always been slightly poorer, but I don't know if Greece was bankrupt as it is now. Has it been? I don't think so. All right. But anyway, but there was that thought, that the Catalan's and the Scots, which I found really curious, they are the richer parts of their states, including Scotland, which I find really questionable. That's difficult to believe. Compared to London? That's difficult to believe. I know. England? Want to take all their money and simply bag the rest of Spain and the Spanish and other Spanish citizens. Like apparently the poor part of Spain is Andalusia, which is where the Moors were, actually. Right. And so that tends to be poorer than the rest of Spain. And so the article is pointing out that the Catalan's just want to write the Andalusians off and not contribute to their well-being. That is summering a truth to me, but not enough to say that they shouldn't be independent. You know? But I don't know. I mean, you could make this argument too about the United States. Should Lincoln have allowed the secession of the South? Right? Or Vermont Second Republic. Right. Should the United States allow that? I'm not familiar with the... Well, I was going to go back to a prior point. I'm not familiar with the Spanish Constitution, but I don't know if there's anything in the Constitution that provided for an exit strategy. No, I bet there's not. That's what the Spanish government is arguing, right? And that's ultimately what Lincoln argued, that there was no exit strategy when the states got together. But the southern states thought there was. Not in the Constitution. I don't know what Constitution they were in. No, well, what they argued, I think what Calhoun argued was that, look at this Constitution was made up of an agreement of all the states. Right. And we agreed to this, and we cannot agree. Yeah. Well, that was ultimately their argument. Right. Right. And it also, the consequences are, once you join, you can never... Nothing can change. It can only accrete. Right. And there's no opposite direction to accretion, which leads you to numbers that don't make sense anymore in terms of... Size and governability. So what is Catalonia? Why is it even part of Spain? I mean, was there an agreement? I don't think so. Was there? Do you know? That I don't know. I don't think so. I think what happened was that Spain conquered those regions, just like it happened in France. And here... I mean, France... Well, but there was an agreement in that a Constitution. All the states agreed... No, I'm talking, well, I'm talking about the western territories. Yeah, well, the states of 13. Right. Yeah, but so what? They were the 13 also. Some of those were the ones that wanted to secede. Okay, so they said, we don't agree anymore. So they put an exit strategy in the Constitution. No. When someone doesn't like it, these are the steps that are taken to leave. Maybe, but you can also argue at least a few times. I mean, you do in businesses and nonprofits, there's an exit strategy. In contracts. Absolutely. In contracts. I don't know. I felt pretty trapped by my contract, frankly, at Burlington College. I felt really trapped. Well, I mean, but you have severance packages and things like that and, you know, employment contracts when you leave. They may not be generous so that they keep you trapped, but nevertheless, they may be there. Yeah, I know. I don't think they should, but I don't know what the Spanish Constitution even when it was formed. I don't either. I don't pretend to. So in my mind, the Spanish state is a monarchy and that it gathered its territory by conquest, I would guess, right? Like the Basque country and really, I suppose, with Ferdinand and Isabella, didn't it? I mean, isn't that when the Spanish state kicked out the Arabs, kicked out the Jews and formed Spain as a Christian monarchy? I think, right? Yeah. Well, right. At least it's second coming anyway. I don't know if it was. I don't know how much territory, right? I don't know how much territory the Spanish state claims, but that's how they created the Spanish state, I think, is out of war. Unlike the United States. So an interesting analogy. Oh, that's not true. That's not true. I know. I'm wrong about that. Which is perhaps more understandable for us is Quebec. Yeah. You know? Right. Here you have this country or section of Canada that speaks a different language and it really does speak a different language. You know? It has different cultural icons and the argument for it becoming a separate country does not seem absurd. It doesn't seem to me absurd about Catalonia either since it does speak. Yes. Okay. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, right. It has a different language. It has a different culture, right? So do we have an idea of what's going to happen? Is Spain going to? I think Spain will go to war about it. In Catalonia. What is presently proposed is that the Catalonian government had until today, it was extended by Spain until Thursday to make a clear announcement about whether it is declaring independence. Sure. Which is not yet done. Now it hasn't been done. No. And Catalonia government would like, before it makes a clear announcement about whether it's demanding independence, would like another, I think it's four months of public debate and back and forth. And negotiation. And negotiation. So there's one deadline which presumably is backed by the army and the police on Thursday. There's another deadline four months down the road. Spanish aren't going to give in on that, do you think? But that's where things are right now. I'm wondering how much of this is a negotiation ploy to secure greater autonomy. Ultimately, is the place going to become like... That's what they're saying. Yeah. But they have a lot of autonomy. Well, to increase it. I mean, yeah. Right. But you know, it's not like the... I don't think. Like China and Tibet? No. It's not like Catalonia is. I don't know this, of course, but it's not like it's terribly oppressed. It's just they want to not be a part of Spain. But the terminology that they're using is oppression and repression. I would guess it's... Maybe more reactionary to what's been going on since the referendum or since that time. Oh, yeah, yeah. But they've wanted to become independent for decades. Well, the Basques. And the Basques, too. Yeah. And I think that through that, both of those struggles, they have achieved a certain amount of autonomy. It's just not enough. They want to be on their own. I guess, right? And... Is this going to happen? I think the Spanish state will go to war with them. Spanish state and probably the European Union. No, the European Union. You think they will? On Spain's side. They will be on Spain's side. They've already formally declared. But what are they going to do about it, the European Union? Again, send NATO in. Provide support. So it's a big test also for the EU. Yeah. Well, the EU, it seems to me, is falling apart. And that this is going to be a further falling apart. Don't you think? I mean, I don't think the EU is terribly popular in Europe. Is it? Accept them on the financial elites. Like, look what happened with Brexit. Look what happened with Marine Le Pen and her vote in France. Of course, Macron... I mean, I think there's a popular sentiment in parts of Europe, I'm going to say, that believe in greater independence and greater autonomy. But I think, again, I'm not citing any polls, but I think a fair majority of people believe that they want to stay in the European Union in Europe. Otherwise, these quote-unquote fringe parties, the Alternatives for Germany or Marine Le Pen's party, probably would have done a little better at the polls. I mean, most of them polled, they got about 10% of the vote for France and Germany. I thought Marine Le Pen got more than that, but I don't know. Did she? Okay, 12. But she was associated with something that the Europeans don't want back. And she was associated really with fascism and Nazism, I think, wasn't she? So the Alternatives for Germany, similarly they were painted as the New Nazi movement or the right-wing German movement. But didn't they do rather well in these last elections? Yes. Yeah, they did. But again, the percent, they did well, but I mean, again, we're talking about 10%. They're not polling, and that was mostly in more of the depressed eastern part of the country. Right. That hasn't caught up to the West. I think if Catalonia really wants to become independent the Spanish will invade them. That's what I think, but... I agree. You know, and that's not good news, but I think, I don't think Spain will stand for it. I really don't. Well, it'll be difficult. I think there'll be pressure on Spain to invade, even if that wasn't their intent by the rest of Europe, because I think it would be a driving inspiration for other independence movements. I do too. That's what I think. And I think that, in other words, European wars are not over. Well, we'll see what happens. But they're not in my mind anyway, like I said, because I think NATO has given Europe military lines that does go to war. They just don't fight that much with each other. Although they fight with Russia, I really wanted to say something about Russia, because in all the hysteria against Russia, in all that hysteria that's going on right now, whoever has mentioned that Russia was our ally in World War II. No mention of that. I haven't seen that mentioned once. Have you? Well, I mean, we were our ally after cutting a deal with the Germans, and that deal backfired, and that's how they sort of became our ally. It doesn't matter. They were allies. They lost 22 million people. Absolutely. There's no question. Yeah, 25 million even. And if you want to make an argument, you could really argue that the Russians beat back Nazism. They absolutely did. Okay. So where is that recognition that at one point, Russia was twice World War I and World War II? No recognition that we were ever able to deal with Russia. No, I mean, I think it would be a lot more convenient if we could just say that we defeated the Nazis. Yes. So that's what we've said. Yeah, but we didn't. Yeah. We didn't. And also, I don't think... And that's a very unpopular thing to say. What? This is free speech TV, but it's very unpopular to say that the Russians beat the Nazis. That's a very unpopular position. Right. I mean, it's factually based, but it's not popular. Exactly. It's the popularity is, you know, the Normandy invasion, which was, you know, again a... 44. Yeah. It was, you know, it was an amazing military enterprise. Which it was. Right. But, you know, it wasn't ultimately what defeated the Nazis. Right. Right. It rid France of them, I guess, right? Right. I don't agree. I mean, I think it's commonly understood that the main fighting, you know, that defeated Germany Yes. Oh, that's what we're saying. Yeah, that's what we're saying. You know, Stalingrad. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. It's commonly understood. What I don't agree with what you're saying is that it was ever commonly understood that, in spite of that fact that we were allied with Russia. Yeah. Because we weren't, because there are commies. Yeah. Well, we were... We wanted to take your toothpaste. I know. It's like... I mean, it was a marriage of you know, the plotting... Ice. The dropping of the bombs was directed, not at Japan, was directed at Russia, you know, in terms of who gets the goods when the war is over. I mean, we were against the Russians since 1917. Sure. Right. Right. Just like we're against the Cubans always. Right. It's the same deal. So, I don't think we've ever thought of the Russians as allies. I mean, look, I mean, the question, you know, it's often been questioned whether they're even considered European. I know. From a racial standpoint. I know. That's what I find so interesting about the argument of Europe. Russia's a European power, but NATO is directed against them. Right. Russia is in Europe. And the invitation wasn't extended in the 90s when there was... There was talk about it. I know there was talk about it, but did you ever think it was going to happen? I never did. I didn't know anything. I was surprised when the war came. I was older than you. Anyway. That was a big question for Russians. Yeah. And in the 19th century, and, you know, Tchaikovsky, for instance, was being tugged at by the Russian composers who wanted him to not to be so European. German, right? They wanted him not to travel in Europe so much. They wanted him to exploit Russian melodies more, and all of that. And it really was a big decision there right for this one person over internal Russian feuds. No, Russians are different. You know, and the Russian folk is completely different. Slavic. First of all, it's Slavic. Yeah, it's Slavic. But there was also resistance from the other side, too. Yes. Excluding them. Yeah. Yeah. There was internal Russian struggle. It was a struggle from the European soul, too. But it's also true in the Ukraine. Yes. And that's really a lot of what's going on in Ukraine. And when we have two minutes left, we didn't get to talk about guns. I think guns are going to continue to be an issue. Right, right, right. So we better think it through. Those who support the Second Amendment. No, no, no. Those who don't. Maybe we'll talk about it next show. We'll just wait for the next big gun event. Oh, no. I don't want to wait for the big gun event. There's always big gun events. Hopefully there won't be one. By next month, we'll have another one to talk about this. Okay, all right. So I guess we'll start. There's a lot of bullets. What? A lot of bullets. I know. Okay, so we'll see you maybe in a month or so. Thanks for joining us.