 Give it a second here. What would OBS be if it didn't respect my reset my inputs for my for my audio there for my interface So welcome everybody to modern-day debate tonight. We're gonna be debating is saying trans men aren't men transphobic Yes, what would it be if I wasn't muted to start us off everybody and Nina's gonna open up the floor So Nina the floor is all yours. Hey, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation here I think I just want to do kind of a quick thing at the beginning here When we say transphobia, I think a lot of people Mix up the argument where transphobia is like the literal definition of like, oh, I'm afraid of of these type of people and I think that's like really unfair to to use because transphobia is not like a phobia as defined like In like the clinical philosophy like an anxiety disorder or something like that um It's usage like parallels like xenophobia like where xenophobia is like the fear or dislike of anything Which is perceived as being like foreign or strange. It is an expression generally that is based on the perception that a Conflict exists between like an like an in-group and an out-group and it may manifest itself in a suspicion of one group's activities You know by members of the other group He desired to eliminate the presence of the group Which is the target of suspicion and fear of losing a either national ethnic race identity Again, that's what xenophobia is but we're talking about that basic concept applies to to transphobia, so Hopefully we can't get we're not going to get mixed up in in that language um There is a phrase that maybe we should be looking to adopt a little bit more called a transmia um Because it avoids that Mix up um, I think it's pretty clear in my mind that uh transphobia that um not uh supporting somebody's gender identity Whether they are trans man or trans woman um is incredibly transphobic because it really supports a lot of like animosity towards that that group and um, it it just seems like really clear that a lot of just rejecting the idea of even that community or like their validation is always going to be Something that can for one cause violence it can cause um you know mental health issues like where you know you don't feel Like you you should feel the way you feel you're wrong or something like that where I don't think that that's something that we should be supporting um Or should ever not be supporting not feeling like that. I think there's a big crisis among like even like you know young like uh white men in this country, but they feel like they don't really know where they're supposed to be at Which is causing like a lot of anxiety and and stress and I think that's a very easy bridge to go between like how it feels to Completely feel like you're just like invalid And then I'll leave it there for the time being. Okay. Uh, can everybody hear me? Okay Sorry, uh, yeah, probably we're done in question. Anyways, um, hi everybody. Um, I'm stardust I cover politics drama niche internet going on. Um, I like to kind of keep my finger on the pulse of like more fringe communities And what they get up to I also debate, which is why I'm here today um, the debate topic is Is saying trans men aren't trans aren't men transphobic my answer to this is probably yes Is saying trans men aren't male transphobic in my opinion, not necessarily So the difference between these two statements is that I'm referring to gender identity in the first one and sex in the second one The difference between sex and gender put very simply is that sex is generally about whether you're born male or female And what reproductive organs you have and their functions Gender refers to an individual's internal sense of their own gender and how they express that gender outwardly And the societal and cultural roles that they feel as a result of that I won't deny that gender roles and gender identity is something that originally came out of sex um, but as society has progressed we've come to a more complex understanding of Our identities my opponents in this debate are going to disagree with me primarily because they don't believe in the concept of gender at least from what I've seen um, and uh, you know gender is a social construct to them and serves no prop purpose um, however I would say in response to that that there are plenty of social constructs that we respect and give importance to because they serve a purpose in society One example is money money is a social construct It facilitates the economic transactions and trade that people do every day It serves as a medium of exchange a unit of account and a store of value Which helps in the efficient allocation of resources within a society Additionally gender identity isn't something that is exclusively used by trans people To someone who doesn't really care about gender discourse and isn't really thinking about trans issues regularly They still will be able to distinguish when someone is talking about being a man slash male Biologically and when somebody is telling them to be a man Uh, similarly we see this happen when women try to teach each other about being a lady My goal in this debate is not necessarily to convince my opponents that they have to believe in gender as a concept Or agree with trans people and how they identify My goal is to hopefully demonstrate why even if you disagree with trans ideology Um, even if you don't believe in gender Um that respecting people's pronouns and identity is a worthwhile thing to do You don't need to agree with my stance on trans people You don't even need to believe in gender, but I hope I can demonstrate Why extending a basic amount of respect to someone who is otherwise suffering is the right thing to do All right, well, thank you so much for your opening statement there stardust We are going to kick it over to the other side of the aisle. Sorry about my mic earlier there guys Our side had up to eight minutes to make their case I've got my audio outputs reset here So they'll stop doing all that nonsense and without further ado to the other side Andrew rachel the floor is all yours All right, I'll go I'll go first um So again as is a trend modern day debate we won in the intro we've already won the debate so essentially, um, they conceded That this is a social construction and that it's perspective based and so how could it be transphobic? It's just a matter of perspective from their Specific viewpoint But let me still go into the arguments because maybe there are Some arguments that can be made that we can get into There's a few different ways of looking at this issue of transphobia or supposed transphobia Our positions actually rather simple trans genders don't even exist as an objective reality Rather, this construction is simply parroted by leftists To try to explain why there are men out there who want to dress up and pretend they are women They aren't women they can't be women and they'll never be women To start with this entire thing is a category error Transgender is meaningless as it doesn't point to anything other than hard biological sexes Pretending to be the opposite biological sex. That's it. That's all it points to you can't even say it points to a mental illness anymore Because of political driven changes to the classifications of what these mental illnesses are if that is what is meant by it Even then I wouldn't have any issues Which actually brings us to the crux of this argument, which is that it's emotional blackmail The left insists that if we do not lie to trans genders that it's harmful to them Of course forgetting that many of us hold an ethical system We're lying is against the ninth commandment of our lord god the commandment of bearing false witness We are instructed not to break this commandment and yet the suffering it causes us to do so is not taken into account Isn't that christ phobic The leftists ironically argues no it isn't because the christian identity is just made up You can't I I'm not kidding. That's actually what they say Nope, because the christian identity is just made up the trans identity is legit though. It's insane That's actually what they believe To say that progressives are nutcases has always been an understatement But on the topic of transphobia They're even more unhinged than usual because at this point they want us to believe a non-reality as reality And 1984 us into oblivion with propaganda by simply repeating over and over again This thing which is obviously false What's so bothersome about this is they know it's false. They all know it Yet they are caught in a social contagion which has become a mass delusion A thing must be itself. It can't be what it is not No amount of pretending a dog is a cat ontologically will ever make a dog a cat ever All of you everybody watching this As in everybody knows what i'm saying is correct. They can rage about it. They could be angry about it They can hate me for it, but you know i'm right So to end the answer is no It's not any more transphobic to say a man is a man Then it is to say that nina engages in prostitution because she has an only fans. It's just true And with that i'll yield my time to my wife All right, you got eight minutes on the clock a little bit more than eight minutes So if you want to eat them all up, they're all yours, rachel Alrighty, well if you guys don't know me. I am mrs. Andrew wilson uh, aka The bitter misogynist patriarch is on the internet So to build off of what andrew said he's correct that This we heard from both stardust and nina this emotional appeal that even if you disagree Even if you don't believe you know in in gender and you think it's a construction The right thing to do to reduce harm is to is to respect people's Chosen identities. Well, I would dispute that first and foremost We can look back to the early days of feminism going back to the late 1700s to the mid 19th century When feminism was first proliferated as this marxist idea by flora tristan who was a diehard marxist and the first one to Combine feminism with marxism and she said they were inextricable. You could not have marxism without feminism I would say she was probably right about that the whole idea of Feminism is to say there is no real difference that's meaningful between men and women. There's no meaningful biological difference this idea that it's a Socialization that makes women think they like the color pink and sparkly things and playing with baby dolls And that boys only like playing with trucks and punching each other for fun because they're socialized to be that way The natural evolution of such an idea the logical conclusion if you follow that logic all the way through is that If there is no meaningful biological distinction between male and female That one can become the other why not right? So we see this start to emerge in 1930s germany. You see magnus hershfeld to the psychologist With his very suspicious gender clinic and uh, you know It was also his home and something of a halfway house for Invalids and homeless people and people with all kinds of mental problems to be the first person To pass out licenses for people to cross-dress Yes, you might not know that it was actually legal for people in germany and also in america and most other western countries in The 1930s to wear more than three articles of clothing that did not match their biological sex So men were not allowed to walk around in dresses in public for the most part You know, there might be an exception if you are in a shakespearian play and you have to play a woman or something But generally just to walk around in public dressed as the opposite gender was not allowed Hershfeld wanted to facilitate this mostly because he was doing creepy frankenstein experiments on very Desperately mentally ill people who cannot support themselves And so he began writing these permission slips basically that if the police were to pick up these people for cross-dressing publicly They had to let them go because they were ill. They were sick and they needed to do this. So To say that this is uh harm reducing to reinforce these ideas and people who who have these ideas I think is wrong. I think it's actually the opposite and we can see this in the case of david reamer If you guys have ever heard of john money He was another psychologist in the 60s in the united states who took uh two twin boys Who one had been mutilated at birth when they attempted to circumcise him and the parents didn't know what to do with this child Because he no longer had a penis john money Another proponent that gender is just a social construct said raise him like a girl never let him think he was ever not a girl Raise him exactly like a girl. He's gonna be better happier that way Well, david reamer was not happier this way by the time he was about nine years old He knew that he was not a girl. He didn't act like a girl He didn't want to act like a girl and he very tragically had a really just uh difficult life and ended up Self-deleting when he became an adult, but he publicly spoke about this and how harmful it was to him So to say that reinforcing this gender ideology especially on children is harm reducing I think it's we will see as the debate goes on andre and I will show that not only is it harm reducing It's more harmful Then it is harm reducing and so in that aspect. No, it's not transphobic at all to Not support gender affirming care or gender ideology in general All righty. Well, thank you so much everybody for our opening statements rachel for your opening statement just now Uh, just a quick little bit of housekeeping Before we go into our open discussion I want to let everybody know that I I have failed our lord and savior james my good friend james I failed you I was supposed to let you know in between each opening statement As per our discussion earlier that we do have our live event coming up as you can see I've got the crowd uh the fund linked over here as far as uh, how far we've come You can see that crowd fund and the indiegogo link in the description And secondly, of course, we're having our live event debate con four in dallas texas It's saturday november 4th through to the fifth and tickets are going to be linked below as well This will help cover the venue costs and allow you also If you don't eat to the crowd fund to get a picture of your favorite speaker Assigned picture of your favorite speaker. I should say which is uh pretty exciting So without further ado, and i'm going to try to inject that a few more times just so I don't let down Uh, are my good friend james there are good friend james at the channel here. We'll kick it into our open discussion Uh, let's put 50 minutes on the clock And um, so yeah, I guess the first thing I would want to say is that um, I know that you guys can be hard of hearing sometimes But um, I did specifically say in my opening statement Then I do think that there are meaningful differences between the sexes and obviously gender is something that's come out of sex, right? We like like I've heard andrew even say that you know gender is something that um In other debates that gender is is something that was like kind of informed by sex at a certain point um But as somebody who's kept up with modern society and I still maintain Like the importance of etiquette and and also understand the repercussions of Of of not affirming somebody's identity. I tend to um, uh prefer to affirm people's identity So you think that I'm not saying we should lie to be polite is what you're saying I mean, look, I I don't um, here's an example. Okay. I personally don't believe in a god, right? I'm not gonna go up to you and say hey, guess what your god isn't real Um, fuck your god all of that, right? Maybe other people do that shit, but that's that's not me Uh, so yeah, there is there is a a so if people do reason one second people people do that Oh, sorry go ahead. I was gonna ask yeah people if people do do that if people do Come after the christian god. Are they christophobes? Are is it christophobia? I mean, I think they're disrespectful 100 percent. That's not my question Is it christophobia? I mean you can say it sure. Why not? Okay. Yeah, why not? so so I would say that um If somebody is saying like all christians are this type of person and that we need to do this Or whatever and that, you know, their god isn't real and and um, and they're useless in society things like that like Um, no, no, no. Yeah, you know what they are. You're totally loading it. The question specifically is just this Okay, yeah If somebody does not affirm that christianity is true Are they christophobic? No, no, I don't think so. Why isn't the true same for the transgender identity? Because I specifically told you that you don't have to agree with transgender idea Ideology, um, like you can choose to not believe in that That has nothing to do with the argument. I don't think that not believing in it is transphobic That has nothing to do with the argument if you say if you make the statement that it's not christophobia It's not a phobia of christianity to say to them that they're that to not affirm their identity is true You just said that that would not be christophobia. How could it then be transphobia to refuse to affirm the identity? Is it causing a little harm that other people don't believe in your religion? Yes, but not only that it's actually one to one. It would be causing the same type of harm. What would be the distinction? I think it doesn't devalue you as an individual. I think it does. It's all about how I feel It's how I feel. It's not about what's real, right? It's how it's perceived Okay, so specifically I did also say that saying a trans man is not male Is not transphobic in my opinion So like Isn't that the premise of the debate? No, the the differences I specifically said Saying trans men aren't men Is probably trans trans men aren't male Is is probably not no trans person is going to say that Or most trans people are not going to try and argue with you that they've changed their sex successfully They know Let me be very specific Are you claiming that if I do not affirm the identity? meaning lie to a uh person you call a trans person No, let me finish the question and then you can respond. We'll give you a minute to respond on the other side Are specifically is it transphobic for me not to affirm a trans person's identity or isn't it? one minute on the clock Why do you keep okay? Well, I this isn't going to mean necessarily a response to your question But I just don't like you're going to ask a question. I didn't need a lie. Great. Perfect. Nina It's no need to answer the question of the debate. Well, it's the right I don't know about the lie. It's just about like why are you thinking that like it's like Let me try one more time with the question. The question is is it transphobic for me to not affirm the identity Of a trans person or isn't it? Oh my god Is it transphobic to uh to not affirm the identity of a trans person or isn't it? Yes Yeah, uh, yeah, I think so. Yeah, okay Why is that not true for the affirmation of the identity of a christian or the affirmation of an identity of somebody who claims That they're black when they're actually white or any number Sure, okay, if I tell you guys, you know what I've done a lot of searching I've I've been to a lot of therapy. I've done a lot of psychotherapy and and I believe that I'm black Uh, would you guys feel that it's harmful not to affirm that if I believe that's my identity? I would say that, you know, if you grew up around black culture, if you if you feel like you identify with black culture Like, um, I don't know that I would call you black But I would say, you know what you seem to be really ingrained in black culture, right? Wouldn't affirm her identity start us? No, I don't believe in I can't, well, but what kind of racist wouldn't affirm her identity start? Yeah, I mean, I'm not going around saying that you guys aren't christians, right? Like I'm not saying that you guys aren't you don't but no, no, I didn't no, that's not that's not what it was Wait a minute your question was specifically if you say that that um, my god isn't real is that christ phobic? No, I don't think that's christ phobic if I go around But if I say that you guys are not christians, you guys are not real christians, then yes, possibly that could be Why would that be christ phobic? But the alternative would not be what is the criteria? What you're claiming is that you're claiming that your identity as a christian. I'm denying your identity as a christian. Yeah Just through my perception just through my perception you're denying it It doesn't have to map onto reality. It only has to map through the perception So is it Or not it's I would say it's anti christian. Yes, probably anti christian to say that. Hey, you know what you say you're christian, but I don't believe you So then is it anti white to say that race doesn't exist? No, not really. We have things that are social constructs all the time, right? But we like money doesn't really exist. We need it It does there are pieces of paper which reflect reality. That's the non social construction made that up Hang on stop stop stop the argument of what is the social construction portion of money? And what is the physical portion of money? Okay, that needs to be clarified There is a physical portion of these things which does map onto objective reality Then there's a social construction aspect to it as well like a school that is still a building The social construction aspect would be the school, right? So yes, um, what I would say is like money. Yes, we have like hard money. We can look at it It's a real thing But that real thing still came out of the social construction Right. Well, what I'm trying to clarify is what is the social construction aspect versus What is the physical aspect of the actual thing that maps on to reality? In this particular case the only thing that maps on to reality Is the biological sex the thing that does not map on to reality is the social construction which you call gender You say that it's transphobic to not affirm the identity of a person But cannot give me a threshold breaker for any other specific identity No, yeah, I have given you I've said that yeah, if I'm going around denying your identity as a Christian Then yeah, that would probably be bigoted So if you say, yeah, can I jump in here? Satanist isn't a real christian Again, it's a little bit to repeat something star does to bring up of course, but like Do you think that If I were to deny the fact like I I'm acting like I know more about your religious beliefs than you and saying like No, you're not actually christian like you think that wouldn't be like Uh a problem like that's more analogous in my mind is somebody saying like, oh, you're not this like you're not this You can't be this like I don't know what you feel. Well, I don't know what your beliefs are I don't know how your internal Um mindset is like I don't think that would be fair at all I'm almost on it. I'm almost on it Okay, but unfair for me to say When it comes to like the way that you interpret yourself and your identity as being a christian I don't think I should have the right to say like I mean not like like to say it But like, you know, it's kind of a piece of shit to do Let's test and see if that's true A piece of shit move if I were to tell you. Oh, no, you're not christian. I because let's find out. Let's find out Let's find out if that's actually true. You know, okay. So here we'll just test this with a quick hypothetical Let us assume that there was a woman who pretended her entire life to be black But she wasn't actually black Right and let's say that she had like some prominent democrat position at some time This fictitious woman who never existed, right? And then let's assume that it was found out that she was not actually african-american in any way shape or form And that she was just larping as being one But she said that she had the lived experience of one and so therefore should be considered A black person regardless of the fact that she wasn't and the entirety In mass of black people came out and said no, you're not black Are they all being racist by not accepting her identity? Nina? Well, you asked a few different things there. Um, are you trying to see more that like it's like, okay I asked one thing. I don't know that person's position. I'm not going to assume that like that Just is not really something that I feel like he's talking about Rachel Delazal who pretended to be black So she could get a position at the head of the nc and nc double a p. Okay, cool People do you know and she got appointed to all these black activist Groups and organizations and it turned out that she had been putting cornrows in and spray tanning herself and And pretending to be of african-american descent when she never was she's like white as I am right And so she was fired from those jobs. She was completely ousted by the black community Does that make the black community racist against her? Does it mean they are being phobic against her if they say No, you cannot adopt our identity and claim it when that's not your biological reality Well, it seems that that person was just doing that for some sort of like tangential benefit Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Oh, okay. So what about what about a trans man? So this the the whole premise of the debate is is it transphobic to say a trans man is not a real man What if a trans man is pretending? How do you know that that person isn't pretending to be a man? Because let's say they believe in the patriarchy and that the patriarchy gives men unfair advantages like you think it does Why should that how do we know that woman isn't pretending to be a man so that she can get the benefits That our society gives to men That's what i'm saying your your example your example of rachel dole is is uh seemingly like it's already been proven that they were using that for the It never really was proven it was assumed But the the contention from from the black community was just like we don't care what you're they said you're not black Yeah, we don't care what your motivations are you cannot say you are Biologically a black person just like a woman cannot say she's a man Answer to the question. No, don't interject. Let her answer for once. They were biologically black like what does that even mean? We're asking the question again. I'm gonna make it as simple as I possibly can for you Was it racist for the for blacks for the black community to say you're not black? Was that racist of them? Was it racist for them to just say that you're not black? I mean, yeah, were they causing her harm by refusing to affirm her chosen identity You have no idea. I don't know enough about this story that you're referring to okay in a fictitious story I didn't even bring up If it maps on the same exact way in this hypothetical Okay, and they all all does say every black person in the united states every single one of them says no, you're not black Are they being racist for not affirming her identity nina? I don't believe in trans racialism like whatsoever not asking you I'm asking nina to please answer my question Yeah, that's not really like we're I think we're a little bit too far off base answer my question Stop running. Why would I use this answer to this question? I don't think it applies You're asking it. You're asking me to ask a metaphor of every single fucking black person would agree with like calling Yes, I know hypotheticals are designed to test logic for really hard What you're trying to apply that every single black person is the exact same opinion. Yes, that's the meaner What did you have for breakfast this morning? I don't think that it's racist How would you how would you feel this morning if you never had breakfast nina? How would you feel? I don't think it's racist. I because I think that um, I I do think that one uh You kind of have to work at kind of being part of that identity and that's probably going to be something that nina and I Kind of disagree on um, I am a little bit more on the trans med side I do think that generally somebody can't just say that there's something and automatically they become that thing We generally though when we see somebody say that there's something they work towards being that thing Um, and so when a trans person is you know is saying that like a man is saying that they are a woman then um Then uh, you know generally we we hope to see that they're working towards that. They're working to present that way They're working to yourself. You're just completely screwed. Wait. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish um, uh, so When a woman, um, when a man So, okay here. Let me let me put this out here. Okay If we if i'm going by your definition of what a man and a woman is right and you guys are just basing that completely in biologically In biology of biology, right If you are talking about men and women from a biological standpoint and for you Men and women is same as male and female. Then you know what? Uh, trans Trans men are not men. I'll agree with you on that right if that's what your definition is but then what's wrong with um With a woman trying to present herself as a man and live life as a man I'll tell you it's emotional hostage taking to have the requirement of christians and tell christians that If you do not affirm the identity of us and thus break your commandment of your god That i'm going to go and terminate myself That's emotional. Yeah, no, that's bullshit. They are saying that and it's emotional hostage taking to say that without these affirmations They're going to hurt themselves and that we must give them these affirmations and lie to them Even though we are commanded not to do so How do we reconcile that like white lies to to people to be polite to lie to them Did we do do you practice a thing called being polite? Yes, of course. I try to be polite So so sometimes you know what the distinction does include Sometimes being polite does require the admittance of things right if somebody says if somebody says hey, um, uh, you know Or you run into somebody right and they um The shirt that they're wearing looks really fucking bad on them. Sorry. Excuse my language. It looks really bad on them, right? Um, but you're just having a normal conversation. It's not really like Polite of me to say hey, I hate your shirt It makes you look like garbage, right? Is it polite to let them go into the bathroom of their choosing the locker room of their choosing and not lie to them Do do I need to lie to them and pretend that they're a woman so that they can go take a shower In the bedroom. Well, if it's buck angel, do you know who buck angel is? No, that's not my question Right, if it's don't ask me a question answer mine. I've answered every question you've asked me answer my question It depends. It depends, right? The reason why i'm bringing up the reason why i'm bringing up buck angel is because buck angel is Biologically as what you guys would say a woman right biologically a woman another woman presents completely as a man Yeah, there's always been freaks at the circus women who have beards and all kinds of things start us right But it wouldn't make any sense I mean it wouldn't go look at a picture of susan b and to help me That wouldn't make any sense It wouldn't make any sense for somebody like buck angel who looks completely like a man to be in a woman's bathroom I would be uncomfortable with that. I'm not looking at that person Which is why which is why start us we used to have a standard inside of the united states Where you couldn't look like that It was illegal to be a woman and look like that under decency law start us and then there's no problem start us Yeah Everyone's talking all right you're muted for the audience right now, so Everyone's talking all at once. So your guys are muted to the audience So we're gonna hand it back over to nina But uh, this might be a good time to ask everybody some clarifying questions I know in the aftermath of these debates sometimes people are like, hey, you know We didn't get definitions and that sometimes can make things difficult for people So i'm going to take you all off mute and i'm going to go around the panel here if you can And just give you your definition for what it means to you Trans what what do you how do you define that? So we'll start off with you andrew and go to rachel for like a minute and then we'll continue with the discussion with that clarification Transgenderism is a category it's a category error That's how I define it. It's it's meaningless. It doesn't mean anything. It's a category error Okay, well this will mean something. What does that mean? Well, we're gonna go around the panel here So sure and we're gonna try to keep the cross talk to a minimum because I don't want to have to start muting people Because it's uh, it's not fun It's not fun when I have to start muting people because I get indiscriminate with it. So uh, rachel, it's uh, The floor is yours to define trans Yeah, I would second what andrew said and I would say that the idea that somebody can be Transgender is a category error Which began with the idea that there's no meaningful distinction between male and female other than just genitals that other than that We are exactly the same. We are just interchangeable widgets And from that we got to this idea that Therefore we can switch and swap and choose, you know, what gender we are based on this concept So no, I would agree with andrew that it's not a thing essentially over you nina Um, if we're just doing a direct definition, I'd be just like a transgender person It just seems like somebody who uh, There's gender identity or expression like doesn't correspond with like the sex that they were assigned at birth I don't think it's a really like crazy concept. I think it's probably Pretty understandable like in like a very easy way personally, but I just I don't want to go on too much on All right, and over you start us and then we'll kick it back into open discussion with that clarification Yeah, so for me a trans person is usually somebody who's born as one sex who's Experience internally doesn't align with that sex and so what they try to do is they try to do everything in their power to present as the other sex and to Fall into the gender roles and function within society of the gender roles that came out of the opposite sex Um, that's that's generally what I would say Excellent. Well, we'll kick it back into open discussion I'm gonna do my dues uh to james because I failed them earlier to remind everybody the tickets for the debate con are linked in our description Along with our crowdfund on the side. You won't want to miss this epic live event I know if you're seeing double on the screen right now That's because andrew is a double feature tonight. Look at that. It's like rocky horror picture show You're a double feature. All right, so we're gonna kick it back into the open discussion We got another 30 minutes here. Uh, so let's uh, let's try to reset the tone and we'll continue I have a question. So let's say that I give to you that trans women are men, right? Um, the next question would be Um, what is your prescription for what trans women should do should they grow beards and get wives and impregnate them? No, even though they have this the prescription is this illness Nope, the prescription is that we need to have decency laws and deal with mentally ill people who refuse to follow decency laws Like we would deal with every other mentally ill person and give them treatment immediately But under decency laws you absolutely should not be able to walk around in the streets Dressed up like a female and pretend that you're a female when you're clearly not and have the expectation that people lie to You or else you're going to self-delete That's insanity If I can give you quick thoughts there, Rachel, I need to respond. I need to respond to that Because Rachel wanted to add to that Yeah, I just wanted to say you're you're appealing to people's emotions. You're appealing to politeness to manners to etiquette What about the fact that I feel personally deeply insulted by men? Biological males who walk around dressed in woman face in a costume That demeans my personal experience as a woman having given birth to five children That I feel insulted that I am being emotionally blackmailed into Affirming this person's either their delusions or for whatever reasoning I understand some people do have emotional problems that lead them to want to to be seen as a woman I understand that I think there are definitely people who exploit this We see males who enter into female sports and kick the absolute crap out of women in female sports when they were terrible at male sports I don't know what their motivations are I don't care because I am a biological female So how can you appeal to emotion and decency and etiquette and politeness? And then turn around and suggest to me an actual woman that I must entertain some man Remember that it's ma'am guy the six foot tall man who says he's a woman. I'm supposed to say. Oh, yes, you're a beautiful lady I I need to respond to andrew Yeah, well, his his answer Okay, his his answer to my question was that we need to To provide these people with with treatment for their illness, right? We need to get them treatment. Is that correct? Ones that are ill. Yes. Yeah, the ones that are ill So if that is the case and we look at what the treatment for their illness is and Generally people say that gender affirming care is the treatment for their illness Then what what are we going to what are we supposed to do? If the treatment for your illness societal-wide the prescription Is worse on the society than the treatment of your illness then under your own purview for ethics You would have to default with the non-treatment option If the only way by the way that you could affirm the care of these people Is to lie to them and tell them there's something that they are not Then can you answer for me a question stardust as to why it is that teenage suicide rates in 1940 were three times lower than They are right now and we do have data on what was considered transgender then and they were not Self-deleting nearly at the rates. They are now as they have been increasing. Can you explain that to me? Well, do we do we know that that's a result of there being more people altogether? This would be a per capita It's a percentage per capita percentage So if this yeah, I mean I'm yeah, so I'm not I'm not going to deny that, you know One I don't agree with with lying to people, right? Nobody is saying that these people are biologically women I've never said that they're biologically women, right? All I am saying is that they function within society under the woman kind of role, right? They they function as women. They act as women. They they they You know, they I mean you said it yourself. There are things. There are meaningful differences between the sexes, right? Yes, they're meaning biologically. That's not make up in dresses and no, no, it's not females and males Do gravitate towards different things they do but sometimes they're going to be males who Um gravitate to things that are typically female and who express themselves in a female way Who function within society as females would what is wrong with that? What's wrong with bringing back decency laws like we had before and then we don't have any of the debate Do you actually want to answer that? I am answering it the answer to this question is is actually in in the it's in the question The answer is very simple We need to bring back the decency laws Which have a requirement and a set standard for how people are allowed to walk around inside of society And if you're a male, you should not be allowed to dress up as a female walk around society or vice versa What would you define as doing that? Stop talking and let me finish. So anyway, that's what we need to do is focus on that We had that standard before these problems did not exist before nor was the suicidality Anywhere near as high And you know that Yeah, can we can we go back a little bit a little bit? You said a category error. I was So, um wanting to get an answer. What does that mean? I've never heard that term before You don't know what a category error is Like honestly, I want you to be honest with me. I've never heard. No, you've never heard category. I mean, are you thinking literally? Yeah, literally to me literally a category error Literally, yes, it's literally If you'd like, I just looked at that. So I sure go ahead a category mistake or category Error categorical mistake or mistake of category is a semantic or ontological error in which things belong to a particular category Um are presented as if they belong to a different category or alternatively Uh, just make sure I'm unmuted or alternatively Um, a property is ascribed to a thing that could not possibly have a property So that is the long form of the category error Okay, so in what, um, I don't really feel like that itself is an explanation for what Women are ontologically different This white claw is not a planet. That's what it means that that would be a category error But you're not you're not really connecting that because like obviously you just admitted right there that it applies to Okay, well here Nina, let's let me let me help you out with the category with the cut with the context of this Conversation, can you explain what you mean with that? I already did. It's already been explained to you There's an on there is no ontological set base for what is transgender. I'll give you an example, Nina define woman Sorry define woman. No, I thought you were explaining stuff. I I am I'm gonna give you an example of how this works I just I just explained define woman for me Um, I would define it as a gender prescription or not prescription. Sorry for wording. Um, a Gendered term that implies that you generally, um subscribe to a lot of You know social, uh I mean, obviously I'm like more like general listening, but anyways a lot of social values and like Why don't I keep reading the word? What is it that when you're supposed to fulfill a social I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just like struggled with the words there. Sorry like social roles social values social expectations That was the other one. I was thinking up. I'm sorry. That was just like completely losing my words there Um, social expectations. Um, that generally align with um the females apps Can anybody be that thing? Can anybody be that thing? Yeah. Well, then it doesn't point to any information about the thing, you know Okay, because it's a category error. It's a category error That's not really an argument just saying it's a category error doesn't make no a category error is a literal argument It's a literal argument Literally, if you're gonna be like Literal i'm saying in this conversation just saying something is a category error is not your argument for the conversation It is actually our argument. Yes Okay, if I if I can If I grant again, we can go back to what I was saying I um if I grant you that this is a classification error and that uh, and you know what trans women are Um are really men and you said that your solution to this is that um, they need to seek Help they need to get treatment for their illness. Now. I said what if that treatment for that illness is to affirm their gender identity? You said we need to bring back blasphemy laws. Well, what if these are anything about blasphemy laws not blasphemy Sorry decency. I miss I mixed up the word. Um, uh, uh You we bring back decency laws. What if like how does decency laws work with people who um, who In their head no matter what believe that they align I can explain gender roles And and also what what what happens to those people who don't follow those decency laws? Sure So it's the same thing as people who like my mother was schizophrenic when I was young and believed she was a fish I did not affirm her identity as a fish. I took her to the hospital Okay, and so it's not incumbent upon andrew or I to make sure that these people feel better or get better or start believing that They are the sex they were born Uh, we wish them the best. We hope that for them. We want that for them But that's number one that's not going to happen if you keep affirming this nonsense. That's absolutely just not true Uh, and number two it if even if those people are off dealing with that getting treatment. Uh, first of all, I don't know if I I don't know if I would send them to psychologists these days because either the main people that are reinforcing the nonsense But regardless of how they deal with it is not incumbent upon the rest of society to affirm or deal with their issues Just like if people believe they're uh, they've been abducted by aliens All of society shouldn't be pressured to reinforce that belief for them even if it makes them feel better Sure. So let's say we don't affirm their identities But we still we still have people who walk around very feminine men who look like women, right? I don't see even if you know what? Let's say you don't affirm their identity. You don't say that they're women We just call them feminine men, right? Um What is wrong with them even just walking around because you want decency laws, right? So the question so the question which you're asking Which is off of the topic Would it be then start us under this criteria? Transphobic for us not to affirm That a male to female transgender is not a female but is a male Is that still transphobic in your in your brain? Well, I already I already explained to you If your definition of man is biological Then no, it wouldn't be if you're referring to them biologically. That's the end of the day I already said well, I already said that though. I said that like way before right um Now, let me help you with your with your this is not break. This is not groundbreaking. Yes. What I'm asking you What I'm asking you is you did not answer my question You didn't you didn't answer my question ask the question my question is if there are Feminine men who look like women who are walking around and living their life And you say you want to bring back decency laws. What happens to them? What do you mean what happens to them? They have to follow the law like everybody else Okay, and what if they don't Uh, then there's repercussions. Usually they get arrested. That's what used to happen. You don't even want them to exist, right? And no, they can exist. Why couldn't they exist? They just can't wear a lot to walk around No, no, they can walk around in pants dressed like a man They might be effeminate. Maybe they can't help that but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate them wearing dresses They look like a woman and two twos and acting like a lady in public in front of everyone What if what if they're men who look like women and when they wear when they wear men's clothes They still look like women wearing when wait a minute when they wait wait, let me finish Let me finish when they when they wear men's clothes. They just look like women wearing men's clothes. That's fine Yeah, what do you want us? What do you want to say about that? That wouldn't be against the law in start Like I said, then there's nothing wrong with feminine men, right? Rachel in here for a second nobody said anything about feminine men Those are men. Well, I asked you like 20 times before you answered the actual question. Yeah over to Rachel guys Google because there are questions irrelevant. It's literally Not you're talking about classification error So I am solving your classification error and asking you after the classification error is solved. What happens? That's what happens. I'm explaining So google a picture right now of susan b anthony She looked like a man. Okay her facial features. She was just very masculine looking There's always been people like that. Remember the old saturday nightlife skit. It's pat Right, there's always been people that it's it's a little ambiguous. You know, maybe there's masculine looking women There's feminine looking men But whatever your biological sex is when you're out, you know, if you're in your bedroom and you're dressing in ladies panties I guess I won't know about it, but in public Because of decency laws if you're a male Dress and act like a male to a reasonable degree. How are you going to enforce that? Especially sure I will explain the same way that we would enforce it right now if you're walking around with no shirt on Right I don't think men should be allowed to walk around shirtless either Should you be able to walk around with no clothes on out in public or not? Let's get Nina back in here guys Probably not in like public areas. Um, I because it because it's kind of like You're kind of like imposing your nudity on other people and I don't think that's really polite. Yeah So basically you wouldn't do it because you think that the imposition on society is such and the offense level would be such That they probably shouldn't do it, which is exactly what's going on right this second with transgender people I don't think that's I don't think it's analogous society is such That's not analogous whatever that there be decency laws just like with your nudity start us If a woman if a man who looks like a woman is walking around in women's clothes and just looks like a normal woman I am not being offended by that. I don't even know that that person's a man probably right, there's no like you're asking for decency laws for for um, for uh, Something that you can't even 100% verify It's hilarious to me that you think that most of the trans people who claim to be transgender You can't tell go ahead lie to me and tell me But I'm saying they're going to be people No, I never said most of them. I never second there. I'm sorry start us You've been having a long back and forth here, but we do want to get Nina in here as well So, uh, Nina, uh, let's pass it over to you I just like I have to ask How do you enforce these laws and what standards are you basing off of like Scottish people? We're fucking killed all the time and that's like in their, uh Um culture like just kind of that's like a fucking manly Yeah, exactly exactly you're absolutely going with my point. So what how would you have these classifications along like, uh gender Do you know what Scottish people wear what Scottish people wear right now is jeans in a t-shirt like everybody else Just like in America But for for special festivals just like here in America, there's more Nina stop talking. There's more If they're wearing their cultural guards should they get arrested? No, you need to answer my To be fair, uh, Nina has not set a whole lot in a little bit So I do want to give her some time to ask a question and then we'll let you respond I'll take you off the mute there, buddy We are going to go do a q&a shortly after this guys We got around like 10 more minutes of this open discussion here I know it's been a bit juicy But we're going to try to get the most out of it before we get into our q&a Which I think we'll erupt into all kinds of more Juicy discussion. So I hope you didn't lose your point while I reminded everybody of the q&a there Nina And I'll pass it back to you to ask your question to Andrew there. So I'll give you like 20 to 30 seconds Do I remember the exact thing I was questioning but How do you determine what is gender clothing? You need to come off mute there, Andrew You just have to open up the zoom chat and Okay, you would use the rule of three. That's what they use the rule of three So three articles of clothing which were specific to the sex and if you violated that for under decency laws There would be repercussions usually a fine usually you would get fined Okay, so can you what are three gender pieces of clothing? So if you're a man, you can't wear a two two high heels and a bow in your hair or something to that effect Okay, well Scottish people would generally because they I mean would you count like a purse? No, this worked for hundreds of years. It would work again. It didn't mean it was What do you mean it worked? This was a law on the books in most of europe and america for a long time. It worked Yeah, so if an obvious if a man. Yes, it worked Nina. It worked. Well, what is your metric for working? That's what I'm trying to I mean we didn't have problems where people didn't know which bathroom They were supposed to go into they always fucking knew they always knew which shower they could go to They knew which gym they could go to they know what sports they could play the clothing that they were wearing No, because the laws the laws were uniform and saying that you had to you had to Had to conform to what your sex was because you have to I have a question. Let's take a pivot on that like can just really quick. I'm sorry Just really like okay, so how would that be determined? Do you want like genital checks or what? No, that wasn't necessary before we started pumping everyone full of hormones Which is another thing that I would say we should stop what if somebody looks, um, you know a little bit more masculine Unless they go get a bunch of surgery and a bunch of hormones and all this sort of stuff. They don't generally Okay Yeah We're gonna let Rachel talk a second here and then we're not gonna base all of our laws on outliers. That's insane. Yes Yes, exactly So for the Let's say there's two out of every million men who are born that totally passes women without hormones and surgery and costumes Guys, you are women yourselves Most trans people have like these men that think they're women. They have to get wigs. They have to wear eyelash extensions They have to get feminization surgery. They got to take hormones. They have to go to great lengths women do this No to pass as women it's like a tiny t shirt throughout history. Have there always been like Anomalies have there always been anomalies of people meaning it's like really really rare. They're anomalies It's extreme. It doesn't matter. It does matter Do you think that they should be unfairly jailed just because somebody thinks it's not unfair one type of way It wouldn't be unfairly jailed. It would be like it's fair that they don't Pass we're not going to make a societal wide prescriptions Because they might disproportionately harm a couple of people. That's every law which exists on planet earth Disproportionately hurts somebody somewhere. You can't make a prescription I can answer your question if you let me all right if you can answer it with like 15 seconds because I Just started holding a set I thought 15 seconds. I had four girls and one boy I raised my boy like a boy and I raised my girls like girls So my girl's always dressed and looked and acted like girls and my boy always dressed and acted and looked like a boy That's how you do that. That's simple that easy You're born with a penis. You're a boy. You're born with a vagina You're a girl for the two people how it is now million who are intersex. I guess we figure out what to do with them You know, but this has been not an answer the status quo for all of humanity. All right, let's get it over to start us there Hey, so if I can this this is not just First off laws are important because that we have to take into account the outliers The outliers are probably the most important part that we have to take into account when we're making a law Um, so I will say that what you're talking about is is is actually not that uncommon There are plenty of people who present pretty um Ambiguously, there are plenty of women. Well, let me finish. There are plenty of women who have masculine facial features You yourself brought up susan b anthony who looks like a man in a dress, right? There's a few Let me wait. Let me continue. Let me finish. All right. So I have met trans women who pass better than me Okay, uh, there are plenty of women who are still going to look like men in dresses There are plenty of women who have hormonal disorders due to genetics who have beards that they have to shave every day We can fix that now Sure, we can fix that but at the end of the day Wait a minute at the end of the day That like you are still going to have people who look ambiguous. You still have uh, uh, unisex clothing And when a a masculine looking woman is wearing unisex clothing, how are you going to enforce? Well start us? Let me answer this specifically Considering that these laws were on the books for most of american history Would you say that right now in the year 2023 there is more confusion about where women need to go to the bathroom Where they need to shower where it's appropriate for them to go Which sports are it's appropriate for them to play in or less confusing than it used to be in the 1940s and 50s Which would you say is more likely? I don't think it's that confused. I don't think there's that much confusion honestly Which do you think is more likely Are you saying you're confused now or less confused now in the bathroom? I think there's less confusion now. There's less confusion now Why we're having national debates on it because nobody's confused everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing Because people are upset by it 100 but I don't think decency laws are the way to go I can't believe that you're you think that i'm going to take this as a good faith argument that you think that right now in 2023 People are less confused about what they're supposed to do when it comes to gender and sex than they were in the year 1940s Yeah, there's a lot of gender bathrooms. When were what where were the 1940s? What were the 1940s fights over sports about were they over whether or not? Uh men could dress up like women and play on their leagues No Was anybody confused about where they could go to the restroom? No Were they confused about what drinking fountain to drink out of even no they weren't confused about anything But our I think our quality of life has gone up significantly since the 1940s due to technology Due to technology not because of this nonsense due due to to societal changes We progress through times There's still going to be women to to this day and in the future who look like men in dresses You are not going to be able to do a genital inspection on every woman who looks like a man in a dress There are a lot of them For How many do you think there are startups It doesn't matter. I think there are quite a lot when I see trans women when I see trans women who pass better than me Yeah, I do think I do think that they're quite a lot But why do they pass better than you because they've had facial feminization? They have uh lip fillers They've got fake eyelashes on they're taking estrogen. They wear a wig I've done three of those things I've had women go through menopause One second. They're starting to let Nina in for just one moment here. She's got a thought No, I was just saying that I mean I do that shit too. Like I did three of those things you just listed I've gotten lip uh lip filler I I wear fake eyelashes. I can't remember what the third one was because I don't remember everything you just said But like yeah, I've done stuff that is like, you know Something that I wanted to do for myself like what the fuck does that mean that? They're only passing because they do well, you see everybody does without all of that Reconstruction and lip filler and all the filters and all this shit that you're not allowed to engage in under decency laws The confusion's brought even lower than it is now where I still don't think many people are very confused As to which people are actual women and which ones are trans Can I ask something really quick just really quick? Do you think that um people should be able to get breast implants? I think that under certain circumstances due to disfigurement that that would be appropriate Okay, but not for like fun days just because they want to have bigger titties. No, I don't think that's a good idea for society never has been Oh my gosh, okay I'm sorry that there's standards. I know I know here's the distinction between us The distinction between us is that you think that the things that I'm saying sound draconian and they sound absurd They sound evil, but I can point to the societies these things came from which were far more stable than this one And I don't think that women with only fans all over the place and prostituting themselves out Constantly is the standard we should have for our freedoms in society without law. There can be no freedom That's what the group showing your personal bias right now I am well. Yeah, of course. It's a personal bias, but it's also Do you have an only fans? I wasn't aware of this I don't post on it. I haven't posted on it in like two years, but I It just has like lewd pictures. It's like should that you would post on instagram. It's not anything Oh, okay. All right. Um, so I guess my my question would be um, you would post your full naked backslide on instagram By the way, I guess. Okay. I I don't care. I literally didn't do that And that's wait. Were you looking at my only fans was fucked wrong with you, dude That's what I was told Nina. I don't I don't care. Well, that's why I honestly don't care when we're okay In this hypothetical in this hypothetical society like in this hypothetical society where we have We have okay, whatever in the future the future hypothetical society where we have decency laws, right? We have um, Women who have cancer have to get double mastectomies um If a woman who is masculine looking who's had to have double mastectomies is wearing a dress Like I just don't see how there are so many gray areas here that I feel like well. Yeah, I wonder how did they ever figure it out That person how did they ever figure it out a birth certificate says that says I was female at birth You want people to carry out birth certificates? No, it would happen that Again, I can explain if you want to let me so let's say this hypothetical happens rarely It will happen, but it'll be very rare a very masculine looking woman who had a double mastectomy and is wearing a dress in public and a Friendly neighborhood cop pulls her sign says Sir, uh, I'm going to give you this citation for wearing a dress because I you know I have suspicions you might be a logic biological man That person can pull out there at their driver's license and be like, uh, this says I'm mrs. Andrew Wilson My name is Rachel was I was assigned so if if it came to it Would it be embarrassing sure but that person could go to court and say look here's my birth certificate I'm a female. I I might not be the most feminine looking person, but I had a double mastectomy blah blah blah That's not generally what happens those citations that we're talking about were passed out to people who were obviously Right these people that were obviously running around like when I when I worked at a makeup counter when I was young And there was a man who would come in wearing a high heels and a tutu and a blonde curly wig and asked me to do his makeup I would have been able to say no you need to leave. I'm not going to do your makeup But now I can't now I have to pretend that he's a pretty lady and I have to teach him how to contour his face Right, so that's what we're talking about here. No, nobody is telling you to Nobody's telling you to again. Let me reiterate. Nobody's telling you you have to believe that they are biologically a person You know Sex that they're not originally right. We all know most trans people No, most trans people will will agree and say that they can't change their sex Most trans people will be pretty understanding if you accidentally misgender them um, but like my like I guess my Concern with this is like with decency laws one I'm just so much for personal liberty unless somebody is actually inflicting harm on the society around them I don't I can't see the reason for decency laws. Especially it is harmful So so a a person who is just dressed normally who happens to look like Uh, they're a person of one sex dressing as another sex. They're dressed pretty conservatively I don't really see the problem here One more time it is harmful. We have demonstrated where the harm comes in to the greater part of society When you request that they lie to affirm somebody's mental health, that is massively harmful. That's one. No, no, no You shut up and let me finish nina Please It's a utile issue that's what you all believe in is utils and consequentialism The majority of the the united states population still to this day identifies as christian Telling them that they need to affirm things which is against Their religious backing the majority of people in this case And tell them that they must bear false witness or else they're transphobic And these people are going to self terminate is absurd and it's far more harmful to society Also, when I asked you the question about is society less or more confused You straight up lied to me and said I I would say it's less confused which is clearly bullshit and it's obviously bullshit So when we get back to this point, why don't you give me the moral grounds of why it would be Tell me why it would be morally wrong for me to say That there needs to be public decency laws where males can't walk around dressed in female garments And females can't run around dressed in male garments like happened through most of our history Give me a single argument for why that's immoral Women today wear men's clothes all the time. I don't see how this is going to be It's not it's not it's not there is no moral wrong to a woman wearing like a hoodie and pants There's no moral wrong to a woman wearing a suit No, I asked you to tell me why it would be immoral for me to impose those laws Because because I think it you are infringing on somebody else's rights who is not necessarily That's not so right. I wait wait wait no backup. If I can clarify one thing. No, you can't clarify till we finish this point Okay, so So when because she's trying to move off of this topic She's not she's trying to clarify She's literally trying to keep on the topic when it shut up Nina when it comes to the moral argument start us Do people have a right to own guns? Yeah Okay, they do can they own machine guns? Yes, they can And can they own grenade launchers? I would prefer that they didn't but what about hand grenades? Um, I don't think that I I don't think that's safe, but they can yeah Uh, like if we're allowing guns people should be allowed to own What about a jet aircraft should they be able to own one of those? I mean, I'm sure people who are rich enough who know I'm asking you a should question should they start a should they be able to Yeah, I don't I don't see why not honestly You don't see why they shouldn't be able to own a harrier jet with that's armed with missiles Yeah, plenty of people do it, you know or they have their own plenty of people own harrier jets that are armed They have no not harrier jets not harrier jets, but they oh they have like a whole military arsenal in their home Yeah, so but you think it should be able to have harrier jets Okay, are you getting to a point? Are you just trying to? Yeah, the point the point here is is that all rights are limited even in your guys's estimation all rights are going to be limited Now start us just said to own it They have the right to own it now to use it. I don't know but yeah to own it when okay So if all if all rights are limited, why can't I limit whatever you perceive this right as being? Why would that be immoral is the question? I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you can you like clarify a little bit? Is it immoral to let people own nukes? And wait, we were way off the top. We're not on a hard one That is I will you know, I will give it to you that that is that that's a hard one because I think it would be a really bad idea Yeah, is it a moral it would be fucked up. It would probably yeah, probably would be immoral because we don't know what they're Because we don't know what they're going to do with it Right, we don't know what somebody's going to do with something that makes it immoral that they have it That's an argument. We have like checks and balances within the government We have wait We have checks and balances within the government when governments own nukes and stuff right like we have Generally a process for for when people can Um can use nukes. Um at least within our government. Um, it's something that's like a last resort last resort question Why would it be the reason why it would be the reason why it'd be immoral? In my opinion is because we don't have those checks and balances for a person And they could use that against anybody right the consequences or what makes it immoral The potential consequences or you're kind of just Yeah, probably I guess okay, so if it is the potentiality of the consequence that makes the thing immoral I would state that the society which I propose which I can directly point at because we already had it Was a more moral Consequentially the society than the one that we have right now via consequences. So why don't you endorse that society? I don't think that society is more moral than the one that we have today I will grant you something. It has to be based on consequences. It has to be it has to I don't think I don't think No, no, listen, listen, don't you understand it's an entailment It's an entailment. I think we're going to disagree on this. Um, you can't disagree on it. It's an entailment We're talking about decency laws Yeah, it's an entailment So if the entailment of you must not own nukes because the consequences be bad That means consequence of your highest value for your morality. Okay, I can grant that that's true But if consequences are your highest value for morality and I can point to you the society where the consequences on the general public Were far less than they are right now. The general public was more stable. Shouldn't you want to go for that society? I don't think that general public was more stable now in the hypothetical where that that society was if the hypothetical Was that the society was then I would agree with you But I disagree that that society was was a more moral That society had going on for it when it was when they had these decency laws that made it less stable I think that a law to Kind of regulate how people are allowed to uh to dress and their personal freedoms when they go about their own day They're not infringing upon anybody else's rights. Um, I don't think that that's right. I don't think that that's more But how is it less stable Less stable because you're you because you are enforcing a law that is Going to be very ambiguous by today's standards, you know, like it's going to be something that's very hard to enforce and so But you said there's no you said the Can I can I talk a new really quick than the society is now so what about that society was less stable Then this one there was more more. Um, there's there's probably more poverty. Um, uh, pretty much everybody There everybody worked right like literally everybody there was child labor like I don't think child labor is good No more child labor going on in the 40s then there is right now with teenagers with work permits So we've got a little bit Well, that's that's on the same as child labor off base here guys So, uh, it might be a good time to jump into the q&a so that we can get uh, a little bit more closing statements Oh, yes, I I usually do the closing statements at the end because usually the q&a can create new context and New fun things and clips and things that people say, you know, it's fun. So I'm going to remind everybody once again that we do have tickets in the Description to our live event and also to the crowdfund. So if you can't make it in texas for the event You can still help us out by donating to the crowdfund So check out the link in the description there where we will also have all of our speakers here linked And if they're not linked there now, they will be post. So without further ado, let's get into that q&a and First question coming in here from manga fan dan denying someone their religious identity is defamation Someone confers to Judaism and you say they are not jewish. That is anti-semitic same comment I think that one's for you nina and stardust Yeah, sure Yeah, I I think it's like really fucked up to tell somebody what they're not and because I agree something like that identity is so important to you on a personal level. It's like how the fuck would I know? But why isn't it fucked up to tell them what they are? Why is that messed up? It is fucked up to tell them that they're not jewish. No, but why but why would it be fucked up? Tell them what they are. Andrew you're jewish Why would it be messed up to tell a person what he is? Andrew you're jewish Well, it's telling them what they are You're a prostitute. That's an objective truth. Like what do you want me to say? Yeah, and that's kind of a fact the point is it was supposed to be offensive on the last day Let's start us back to the question, please Like they don't believe in something that ua identified was sorry. Go ahead sir If telling them what they are is a denial of what they are trying to be or who what they identify as For example, you are a christian. I say that, you know what all abrahamic fates are based in judaism So therefore you're a jew. Um, yeah, probably it's pretty fucked up Yeah, not a good Even if even if you're lying to them I'm not lying to you when I say that you're like you're jewish Yeah, so if you tell a person they are 5 foot 11 and they demand that they're 5 foot 9 Are you doing something fucked up by lying to them start us? I mean, I think that's kind of comical So that's not really that's not my question start us. No, that's that's not it's not analogous though I don't think it is you're gonna answer my question. I said I yeah, I did I answered your question. I said no No, it's not but why would that not be fucked up? Because it's comical and it's not even it's not even analogous whatsoever. Okay. They believe that biological reality That's a biological reality Every bit as much of a biological reality as sex Well again through your definition through you through your definition with like Through your definition you define male and man and woman through the biological lens, right? Whereas nina and I have a different definition where gender is something that's separate from sex Although it is tied to it Yes, it is explain to me how gender Is not fashion. Give me any qualifications of what defines gender that doesn't mean my fashion Um, tell me what defines gender Yeah, so specifically there is a difference between sex and gender that I believe in Sex refers to the physical and biological traits that somebody is like born with and has Whereas gender refers to our social or cultural traits the social or cultural role that you play As well as the as well as you trying to um fit into the Appearance of what the sex that is correlated with your gender fashion. So give me some give me some examples Right, so if I'm a female trying to become a male How we if we are some sure what maybe we should we both agree We both agree that there are meaningful differences between the sexes, right? Some This female sex will sometimes gravitate to certain things the male sex will gravitate to other things There are people who identify with a gender that doesn't correlate with the sex that they were born into the people who Who identify with that gender often will gravitate to the things of the opposite gender So why when the people here presents hang on? No, let me finish. Let me finish. Why is it then? Start us that the people here who want to present as a woman and the people maybe in a different nation Want to present as a woman present differently What do you I'm sorry, can you can you why does the presentation of what maybe a person wants to present as being a Woman here in the United States. Why might that be different than in a different culture? um, uh, yeah generally, um In different cultures it will be different. Yeah, but we we still see like general trends across the Presentation is related Yeah, it's culturally related, but we still can see across the board General similarities between between the way that sex is present across all cultures. That's because fashions. That's because fashions generally No, it's not a long same way. Yes. It is fashions. It's not dresses for instance are universal standard for women Sex, you know, the three tends to be more nurturing, right? We can agree to that That's not an identifiable You can't give me a threshold breaker start us for how much America If a person who identifies as a woman It dresses as a woman acts as a woman does things that women do right? Basically functions within society as a woman acts like a lady They are functioning their function within that society is still some examples. Yeah What would be some examples of how you would present feminine if you were a male? Do you have gravitating to jobs where generally females will gravitate towards like what like what like school teachers? Like doctors like nurses Men do that, but then there are the more men. I think you're doctoring there by the way. Yeah, sure There is okay. Sure. There's the difference though between somebody who Gravitates just gravitates to different things than the the rest of their sex versus somebody who identifies with the opposite sex Than what they were born into Those people do right if I'm if I'm a woman who identifies I was assigned female at birth But I identify as a man What things you said at the beginning in your opening we would hope those people are working toward You know identity presenting as that what would those things include would it include growing a beard? Would it include it would be behavioral and appearance wise right appearance that women interact, right? So yeah, obviously appearance is part of it But there are ways that men and women interact differently with each other Appearance actually has to be the crux of it because you can't give me a threshold breaker For how a person behaves as to when the threshold crosses from male to female. You can't do it It's not I mean look I will tell you when I meet somebody who is like a trans woman who acts like a man in all conversations I will generally say this person is man-brained Like you know like you're not really acting like a woman when you're when you're being The way that you are absent the fashion aspect. What's the threshold breaker for behavior? There isn't one correct. I know there's I think I think it's uh, I think it's basically how you function within society Um, like I think that it's a mix of things like what what is the threshold breaker for women, right? a vagina All right, we do have a lot of super chats and they are going to get us down I think a lot of people with vaginas If you start talking over me then that's that's gonna get definitely me open up the zoom call trying to get that mute button hit So, uh, I I know that Nina was trying to get a question in Everybody was chatting and that's okay So if you guys can get that sorted within 30 seconds and then we're moving on to the next question I totally lost the plot on that one. So it might come up again. Um, if it does I I had heard the question it was about how men dress. I can't remember what you were saying Where but um, we can move on from there because I think it will come up again. Don't worry. Yeah, it'll come up Lj for dollar 99 lj. I I think he's under the influence that we're always doing flat earth debates Um, this is always asking questions about flat earth stuff You know, uh, lj. We appreciate you But yeah, all right, if the earth was flat, how would that change your views? Let's just do like 30 seconds around the panel here for this one because it's not really relevant to the topic Uh, andrew 30 seconds if the earth was flat, how would that change your views on this subject? I have no idea I don't know if they would be well if they'd be connected in any way. I'm sorry lj. It wouldn't yeah, it wouldn't It's stardust I'm sorry if the earth was flat how that changed my opinion on this I well, I just said your views, but we're talking about this issue. So yeah, I'm gonna keep it to this issue Would this this would that change the earth was? I mean probably from a social From a social lens probably not maybe with like with when we talk about science and stuff It would it would change things. So Not to sit on you too much james. I I think that we should invade canada. That's true We should that's not james is it? Oh, I'm right. He has james coons. I'm sorry, right? I know you're I'm sorry Your name says james. Sorry. I forgot I'm sorry, right? We're gonna we're gonna america if the earth is flat america should invade canada. That's my stance. Oh, the moon is flat though I will say that Leave us alone. We're doing just fine. You keep your problems All right, all right con the stoner lin our adoptive parents parents and would it be rude to say they are not? Also, do you think it's possible trans people are neurologically intersex? All right, so we got a few questions here Let's start from the top our adoptive adoptive parents parents. Yes. All right. Yes, but they're not biological parents Correct. Okay. Oh, so you all you agree with us Just like trans men. Maybe you're not biological men, but they're men No, because the category that which we're talking about by parent Can be a specific uh specifically applied here and biological parent. They both have a distinct meaning. Yes in this particular case You have no distinction meaning in one case. They're the steward of the child in the other case They biologically birthed and are the steward of the child. Yes Okay, so somebody's a slave owner and they own a child slave. Are they their parent? Uh, no, they would be a slave owner and then they would have biological parents Okay, so this goes back to the category error misunderstanding. You guys got to like read or something No, no, I'm talking about a a child who maybe doesn't have other parents But somebody is like a slave owner and they own that child and they're a slave owner slave owner Okay, what's the difference between somebody who has guardianship of the of the child and and a slave owner the child The slave owner has guardianship. You just said what the difference was No, but the slave owner has guardianship between a guardian and a parent because a biological parent is different from a guardian Or a slave owner. Okay, but an adoptive parent versus an adoptive parent versus A slave owner who has guardianship of that child So the distinction there is that they're not an adoptive parent They are a slave holder the way that they're treating the slave who has no intrinsic right Whereas an adoptive parent has different duties than a slave holder would have The children don't have rights in comparison to their parents Yes, but parents have duties and slave holders have different duties than what a parent has if a slave holder, uh, doesn't um, I guess if a slave holder If we what you mean to say is if it were that we were to define a slave holder Yeah, your mic has all of a sudden become It sounds like it's what's your webcam Happened to me earlier I can hear you still we can hear you but you sound really I think his audio sources probably got fucked because then they got unplugged. Oh, no. Well, if you yeah, if you can't get it figured out, I mean, yeah I don't know if you and rachel are hanging out at the same spot But yeah, you could always hang out there because I can hear rachel good still But uh con the stoner, uh, the second part says would it be rude to say a lot of amount of the I'm sorry. I'm just making a lot of out of the dungeon We'll give him a second here. He might get that figured out. Um, but here we'll just put you on mute Well, you figure out your mic settings there. Oh, maybe he's ready He was messing around with his cords. So I didn't know if that was going to be poppin there I take yourself off mute try again there, andrew No, nothing bud. I can't hear you at all now Yeah, that's unfortunate You might need pop out and reset your audio settings Yeah, that pretty much I guess Hmm Nothing. Yeah, we see we see his mouth is moving, but we don't hear it on the stream You're muted right now too Well, now he's muted. Yes. I think because he's messing around with some stuff I'm just too powerful. I break people's mics That's true stardust did break my mic earlier. Well, that's all right. This gives me an opportunity once again Uh, I remind everybody that we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion politics We hope everybody feels welcome here We hope you're having a good time if you have a moment to hit that like button if you're a humanoid You know with with with heat type sensory Things even a nose you can touch your like button with we really appreciate it Super smash that and also share this out in those contentious places where you like to have these discussions We're going to try to get andrew's mic Situations sorted out here And then carry on with our superchats Um, I think it would be all right if we finish up this one and I think rachel will Be able to handle this just fine. So, um, the other part of that was also Do you think it's possible trans people are neurologically intersex? What was that do I think trans people are neurologically intersex? Is it possible? Yes is what they're asking Uh, I don't know if you could determine Could it be possible a lot of things could be possible? But I think what we're our whole point in this debate is to say that If you're born with male or female chromosomes in genitalia That's how you should operate in society to the degree that Everybody else should go along with it. So what we're just trying to say is like you shouldn't be able to Say, you know, I know I look like a man. I present like a man I was assigned male at birth, but you have to call me janet because I just want you to right so Could are there anomalies? Yes. Are there a few intersex people? Yes, those people exist But that doesn't mean that's because this is a new phenomenon We have never just operated this way where we're going to pump males full of female hormones Or females full of male hormones and call them a man or a woman when they're not We hear you great. Oh, we're back. You are back. Um, yeah, so I just asked the question If you want to give your thoughts on that andrew will move on there 30 seconds Also, do you think it's possible trans people are neurologically intersex? No Straight shooter right there. That's uh, I think easy for everybody to digest where andrew sits on this one Elijah Riviera, uh, yeah, thanks for hanging out earlier on uh osean's channel. That was fun If we are affirming trans men are men. We are also eliminating them being trans as even an identity. So what's the point? I don't necessarily think so. Um, I think just uh, so I get into trouble for this a lot of the time, but um I've said this before I think there's a you know, there's a distinct difference between being a trans man And um a man, right just like a biological man, right? I've said the same thing about being a trans woman and a biological woman. Um, there is a distinct difference There is a distinct um experience that a biological woman has that a Trans woman doesn't have just like there is a distinct experience that a trans woman has that that a biological woman doesn't Right. Um, I don't think one invalidates the other. Um, and uh And yeah, I'm not saying that they're biologically Um one so All right, any thoughts about that on the other side of the panel or you want to yeah, of course, I mean of course This is the problem with having oh, oh, sorry. Yeah, I guess I said the other side Yeah, well, I guess if it is yeah, I was gonna say Nina if you have thoughts for this for you guys, uh, we'll let them wrap Uh, if we are affirming trans men are men I'm not agreeing everything so I'm sorry. Go ahead. Oh, okay. Sorry. I thought you had something else to reject there That's all right. So Andrew. Sorry. I didn't mean to derail Yeah, this is the big problem with category errors is that they don't This is the kind of trouble that you run into all the time By saying that you actually this is a regressive definition So what ends up happening is the the only thing that these two can really come up with or how Trans woman's a woman or trans man is a man to just say anybody who identifies that way has to be one There's no real way around that so it's a regressive definition And the second that you make the confirmation wait a second No, this actually is not that thing that regressive definition falls apart. So it's a it's irrational It's actually an irrational take by stardust and an irrational take by Nina makes no sense So I let me clarify. Um, I don't I've never I again once again, we have different definitions I think we're just operating from different standpoints. No, um, what's the warning? I have said that specifically a That gender and sex to me are are two distinct things although gender is some A woman is generally somebody who is an adult female. Um, as you would say as that would be your your definition Yeah, what's your definition? Um, so when we're talking about gender, it would be somebody who presents as an adult So whoever says they're a woman is a woman, right? Not says they have to they have to go through treatment They have to make wait. Wait. They have to go through treatment. What do you mean? Yeah, uh, I am a trans medicalist I'm not so you mean somebody has to diagnose you as being a woman somebody Does that mean they have to take hormones? Yeah So you realize there's a lot of people who identify as trans but do not get the surgery and do not take hormones I understand that rachel. I I understand that rachel I Yeah, I clarified in this Nina and I have very different positions on this I am of the type I am the type of person who believes that people who just say there are different gender are not that gender They have to go Nina is that is that transphobic? I mean, some people do think it is. Yeah, you think it is. Yeah. Yeah, definitely some people I personally don't Nina. Do you think it's transphobic that she doesn't think that anybody who claims that they're trans is trans? Um, this is not it's more it's more of a complicated conversation and like Just answer the question, Nina It's okay, Nina. Calmly transphobic Nina is it transphobic? No, we're having the conversation. Why don't we cover the topics with two different people with different perspectives? Is it transphobic that she thinks That anybody who identifies as a woman that there has to be specific criteria for that? Is that transphobic, Nina? Again, this is a very uh nuanced conversation. No, it's a yes or no question Well, we're here for whatever we're here for the new one. No, you're not you're not here for a nuanced conversation We don't want to just say yes or no Yeah, well, okay. Just answer the question. Which one are we here for the nuanced conversation? Do you want me to answer yes or no? Answer the question explain it Do you want me to answer yes? Let's answer the question. Let's clarify the question and let's get so let me clarify it Is it transphobic that stardust believes that there has to be specific criteria? Before you're allowed to claim that you're transgender Um, and my personal opinion, I would think that's kind of stuff in my personal opinion, but like It's a new one. So hang on. So hang on if the answer is yes, then what are you bitching at us for all? We have a specific criteria as well Um, because her criteria is a nuanced conversation where you just fucking hate trans people and it's very obvious Oh, yeah, give me the emotional one I Just making it up as you go Nina. All right, you're on mute. I'm gonna take you off mute But we we we're gonna ask a bunch of questions We like I said, we gotta find a stopping place so that we can answer them and get some clarity and move on from there So I will let Rachel answer the question that you posed there Or I think it was more of an accusation. I guess you kind of right vote them. So I'll let them respond to that First of all, I do not hate anybody. I think all human beings are image bearers of god who deserve Basic human decency and respect. I do not want any harm to come to people. I disagree with or Or trans people at all. It's not a hate issue, right? In fact, I think the more compassionate thing is to not affirm delusions of people who have Mental or emotional problems of this nature. Okay, I think your position is the cruel position not mine But secondly, I would like to hear more about this distinction of like There's requirements for whether we believe you're trans or not because this that changes this whole debate All right, over to you. This is not yeah, this is not something that's new I said I said as much in my opening I said that I I've said throughout this debate that Nina and I have Nina and I have different Different opinions on this. I have clarified throughout this debate that I'm pretty much a transmediculous um, the difference between the two of us, I think Rachel is that I have I have I've given into your classification error. I've tried to solve it right and in my category error Okay, let let me finish classification category, whatever words Okay, so In my trying to solve your category error Um, and we say that you know what? Um, biologically, trans women are not women However, I still think that they should be allowed to live their life and present as women Uh dresses women go about their days and function within society as as women But they're not you on the other hand you on the other hand Wait, let me finish you on the other hand believe in decency laws You don't think that they should be able to do that I think that is very close to them not being able to even exist within the public sphere The distinction though because you also are making the affirmative claim that those people who are doing that If they don't have some type of criteria from a medical professional aren't real trans anyway So in that I can say they're not real trans. They're not they're not trans women, right? Then that's not real trans. What are you talking about? What else would they be? What would they what else they can be somebody with gender dysphoria who hasn't made the effort to transition yet? Well, hey people have people are not trying hard enough. Tons of people have gender dysphoria You're not doing it hard enough. Yeah unironically. Yes. So if that's true So if that's true stop cutting me off every five seconds in the end So if that's true start us if it is indeed true that you would say that these people are walking around Dressed up like women. Okay, but you don't consider them to even be trans Then the only distinction between my criteria and yours is that mine is more rigorous. I just take it all the way home You don't want them to be able to even function within public life and exist within public life I think that they should have the right to do that whether I agree with it or not Why would it be a problem? You don't believe they're trying hard enough? No Even if they're not trying hard wait a minute Rachel you are you are you are miss you are misstating my stance on this Even if they even if they are not trying to the extent that I would like them to try They have the right to it to exist within public life to walk around to be who they are And I can't have any say in that unless they're in they're infringing on my freedoms, right? I'm considering them trans, but but they aren't real trans, right? Okay, you're you didn't come to muck here Like what she said right there were infringing on my rights Like you guys have not really at all done a good job To prove any harm with like people being able to just present Yeah, you just keep asserting that but when I point to the I personally don't think there's anything wrong with a feminine man When I point directly to the society which existed where these laws were there I can prove 100 percent that it was a much more stable. No, no I'm asking you to put my arms stable necessarily No, I'm asking you to prove harm Stable Yes, I'm sorry. You have to have a stable society. Yes Not necessarily. They're Stable someday you'll figure that out when you have kids someday and authoritarian and authoritarian government If the an authoritarian government in the Middle East can be considered stable, right? Like if they have full control of their people and of their government, right? Do I think that's a better society one? You know that is super restrictive like that. No, I don't think so stable doesn't necessarily mean this is a this This is a set difference So you can point to some authoritarian societies and say they're bad and I would too But that doesn't mean all societies which are authoritarian are bad the society you live in right now Is authoritarian If in case you don't remember not to the same extent the entire Lock the entire nation down shut down businesses everywhere You're a modern kid All right, we can't go down that path because I'm planning You love authority. What are you talking about? As we kick the down the path of the whole 2020 thing Let's ask the next question and get us back to the point of this discussion Ozean talks, uh, you know our national treasure here at modern day debate and one of my many partners in crime here on YouTube and gendered names don't map to reality use the name Thoughts on the panel? That's an interesting point That's an interesting point like taylor swiss first name is taylor, which is typically a man's name You know, so what's interesting about this is there's actually a great argument for this Which was laid down by socrates of all people who said socrates doesn't indicate Socrates that would be an empty label and most names are an empty label So if you were to ask me what makes you an andrew an andrew is an empty label It doesn't define anything about me. It's simply a name. That's called that indicates nothing else There's no definition of an andrew but there is a definition of a woman that has to indicate and point to something in reality Whereas rachel only indicates and points to a person who wants to be called rachel. That's the distinction Okay, if I can rebut that I would say that you can you can claim that But you were just talking about decency laws for based on the gendered clothing that somebody wears There's plenty of clothing once again. That is not gendered women wear hoodies women wear pants women wear suits, right? And so you can like you would have to define what specifically and they do is gendered clothing And they do we could we could say that look if you are a five foot two 105 pound person with breasts We don't want you walking around in public with a beard. Okay. There there are things you could define but A beard is different than clothing. I'm talking about clothing. How would you do that with clothing? Well, even with clothing the thing that Can we can we do an establishment? I'm trying I'm trying to try and answer the question nina. That's fine though You go ahead. I'm sure whatever you have to say is going to be Give you parameters Sure I just think like it's pants a masculine clothes No, not necessarily Okay, there can be female pants which are designed for females and they have to be cut differently Because male pants and female pants are different you want them to be like looking at like no for instance Here's a good example. How do you qualify that? I'm trying to answer your question. Shut the fuck up, dude So if you're talking about like jeans and a hoodie You could say that men and women both could wear jeans and a hoodie and it's not a big deal However, there are specific criteria that you could lay down where you know that they're trying to have the pretense of being the opposite sex And they this is the flamboyance that you often see I would never look at a trans man just one second there, nina. We'll let them wrap up in 15 seconds there, andrew Okay, so again This is not difficult to do if you see a man walking down the street And he's wearing a dress and he has makeup all over his face, right? That's two and he's wearing high heels That's the rule of three He's gone right or he has to go home and change Just like if he's in a public school and he wears inappropriate clothing to a public school They send his ass home to change their clothes That's the way it works when you have to have a standard of decency inside of public schools You have to have a standard of decency inside of the public in general All right over to you startist um Actually go ahead nina and then then i'll ask yeah, i'm just gonna like we're talking about trans men So why did you use an example of trans women? It wouldn't matter which example i'm using No, well my particular comment was about trans men What is there so when i brought up a man wearing your tutu high heels in makeup that didn't address transmit No It does on the opposite side it there it what are you talking about? She means regardless we're going to use that thing then yes then sure yes generally Yes, again, we're going to be that when it comes Yeah, when it comes to when it comes to the male criteria that might be more difficult But it can still be done and it's not even problematic. I'm asking you how you could possibly even think of it Well, so here's some things that you could need to find any clothes. Okay. We go ahead He was just about to answer your question. We got to move on. No, no, absolutely. I'm sorry I got a little too. I got a little too excited. Sorry. Go ahead What if a man's walking down the street in a swimsuit in a female swimsuit? Do you think that we can maybe question that? Or do you think that that's impossible? Do you think it's impossible? Or do men generally wear female bikinis? Do they do that nina? Have you ever seen somebody doing like a Like like the people who do like swimming they they wear little speedos. Yeah, it's like basically that should be against the public decency laws too, nina If I can I just want to make a quick statement You said to have to be three times. What are three things though? Hold on. Hold on. Just really quick and then we can we can move into what look up the law Look up the laws that were in place. I'm asking you Massive articles add massive articles of clothing You're the one that's advocating for it. Can you give me three things? I already gave you multiple like how many more do I need to give you didn't give me three Yes, I gave you three. I said if a man is wearing high heels and he's wearing a dress and he has makeup on that would be three No, i'm not talking about it. She means the female to male people. So again with the buck angel types, okay The buck angel types. Here's an example. I can give you an example of that Buck angel goes out in public And you know, he's had his double mastectomy like we're doing to these poor tomboy girls who Are now thinking they're boys. God forbid that's like horrific so Buck angels walking around in public with no shirt And he has a beard And he's wearing like let's say steel toad work boots. Okay, we say ma'am You can't do that. All right. You gotta find a shirt. You gotta dress appropriately. Yeah Wait, well, no, no, no, you're moving away from what we were talking about. We're saying like how How would okay if it's you rachel, it's you it's you walking down the street You're wearing pants. You're wearing a jacket. You're wearing like a briefcase because you're going to do whatever you're doing Maybe you're going to like, you know, do like a foster news appearance. How the fuck That would be fine. That would be fine. I'll explain. I'll explain why that would be okay If I was in that same outfit you just mentioned, but then I take my shirt off And I've got chest. We're not talking about that though. That's because I'm like, I've got chest hair, right? And I put a I've been taking my testosterone In decently laws about new that would be the problem, right? So like well In decently laws when it comes to nudity, that's a whole different story. That's not what we're talking about Listen, we're not saying you can be equal. No, no, you're talking about clothing. You're talking about clothing So what what with your clothing? Why shouldn't you get arrested for that? It's not just clothing. It's presentation. Yes So we're just saying It doesn't have to be presentation. It doesn't have to be completely equal between the like tomboy Male presenting women and the male presented or the female presenting men. It doesn't have to be equal Right, like if a dude like if a dude were to put on makeup and have earrings in both ears things like that Right, that would count. That would count But you just said earlier when I was asking you guys this question that a man who looks like a woman Who is wearing male clothing and just looks like a woman in man's clothes would be fine Uh, so it's not just presentation yet in that scenario you're talking about clothing But also it's eel toad boots. They're women. They make steel toad boots in women's sizes for a reason. Sure. Sure. Yeah They could be considered depending on the demographic area that you're in And the clothes you've got to shut the fuck up, you know, try to answer your question and then you just go ahead and answer the question They're Andrew So anyway, every single District is going to have their own type of laws and regulations when it comes to what fits inside of the public decency That's going to be that's what they always have convoluted and very confused. It's not convoluted now It's going to be very Yeah, if you're going to make dress code rules based on on different regions based on different like uh groups of people It's not like now. Yeah, they can walk around their shirt off and women can't like now You gave specifically the example of women wearing steel toad boots It's a terrible example if you're trying to make one because they make steel toad boots They they make steel toad boots. It is no it is they're women. They make steel toad boots They make cargo pants They they make hard helmets for women in women's sizes for a reason They may not be common, but it's something that they do women wear it I just said it does not listen. It does not have to be equal. Okay. There is but then why did you bring up steel toad boots? I'll explain Explain for 30 seconds because it doesn't have to be equal It doesn't so a woman dressed in pants and boots is not as offensive to people as The men that you see now in cosmetics ads where the men have a full beard, but they're wearing shiny lip gloss and Lash extensions and they have makeup on like a woman, but with their little tightly shaved beard. Okay. It doesn't have to be Equal we can say you know In other words women wearing pants is fine, but men wearing dresses is not there could be functional sets but you're changing it now Which Because initially you said Initially you said that you would have different rules for different regions and for different groups of people Now you're saying it doesn't need to be equal and that the steel toad boots can go right out the door They're planning a man. You just refuted your own argument You just said you guys said it didn't have to be equal and in every single region It would be different those things logically follow. They're not self refuting What no what I said is specifically you said that there would be different There would be different rules for different regions and then you brought up steel toad boots Which would be a different rule for one of those regions If you're if your goal if your goal is to create a society with less confusion More laws about decency and more laws about the clothing that people can wear in the way that they presented them present outside Based on the region that they're in is going to be inherently confusing and Then why wasn't it? It doesn't seem like people are particularly confused Just like with pornography when the supreme court says it's something we know when we see it That doesn't mean that we're confused about what it is when we see it Nobody's confused about when a man is trying to act like a woman in dresses like a woman No one's confused about it. These are pedantic criteria on which by the way We could actually give an accounting for each independent criterion depending on the region you're in Right if you're basing things off of like if a region is more blue collar and has more blue collar workers And women who work in those jobs and then you have another law for a region And this this can this can vary so much within within one state within one city Are you going to make a lot? Hold it on? Are you going to make a are you going to make a law for every region within every city? That's going to create so much confusion. That's what we do now It's not what we do now We do it maybe state by state All these things are different state by state But there were there did used to be a difference So like if you were in the late 1800s in victorian england If a woman was walking around with a mustache like a phony mustache and a top hat, you know and dressed in a tuxedo She would be told she has to go home and and not wear that in public unless she's like maybe in the theater Okay, so these things we can do them. They were done. They have been done and we can get them again Another example of this is in avada right this second if you're in reno, nevada has different gun laws in las vegas nevada You can you can smoke in certain restaurants. You can't smoke in other certain restaurants Almost everything within law is done by the the municipality level, right? Well, we're talking about is opening up the legality nationwide so that these types of decency laws can be imposed in the local level Which I think is fine Yeah, okay state by state is massively different than then making laws region by region Especially when you take into account wait by region now when you take into it when you take into account Like different regions within different cities where different workers congregate when you when you take into account that there are Areas with a lot of tomboys in them because it's a lot of young people there Like you know and tomboys are people who wear male clothing and don't even identify as male There are women who going who are going to want to wear male cut clothing for the sake of modesty Like this this it happens right now with Let me finish right now. I let you finish. I let you finish Actually, I let you finish at the point You rattle on all you want and I let you finish okay when when I'm saying something No, it's not you're not saying anything Like I am my mind is fucking boggled because you you are your laws are actually making things more confusing If somebody is there they're different laws for different regions within a city Then that is going to be confusing people who are not from that area are going to have Run into so many problems when they walk from one area to the next That is the case with all law everywhere everything from how fast you can go Every shut up to this extent everything from how fat yes to this extent. Wait, dude. Wait. Have you ever seen speed as Nina stop talking Nina Everything you could possibly think of from speeding in an automobile to jaywalking laws to smoking laws To regulations on what can be sold to how late That's not a difference single thing that you can think of skateboarding laws Literally set down at the municipal level the local level and the state level. Why would this be any different? All right, well, let me know the difference is that you're talking about your identity. The difference is respond their stardust No, I'll let her cook but I would like to um Circle back around. Okay. Okay. The difference is The difference is is that things like speeding laws things like where you can smoke These are things that are easily identifiable by a sign when you have things that are so No, when you have things that are so like no shirt no shoes no service. Excuse me. Are you gonna let me finish? Are you gonna let me finish? It's not that simple. It's not that simple It's not that simple when you have there's a difference between having a speed limit sign having a new smoking sign And having a gendered clothing sign a gendered clothing sign is going to be a mile long I I do want to inject here because uh, no steel toad boots in this area like And just one second the stardust from one area through the other So let's say they have to go home one second to start. I don't want to put you on new municipality They don't earn it any given time you are set to the abeyance of thousands of laws. You have no knowledge of okay And the police officer stops you and decides that they're going to pin you on one of those laws That's the way the cookie crumbles They don't I don't want to mute you guys All right, I'm gonna have to do it. All right, you guys are on mute again You guys just aren't listening to me and I like I said we got more super chats to go and I got one That's actually pertinent to what you guys are talking about So if you'd let me inject with it I think it's going to help you along in the conversation and also clean up some of the super chats that we do have so If you guys just let me do my job We'll be able to carry on so chris. Oh says they're called obscenity laws America had them before and still does win ryan win fake bops okay When right wait i'm school's last part. Well, I just That that was correct. They're called obscenity laws. Yeah, so that's correct And not only are there obscenity laws, but there are decency laws which still in the books in some areas You can't mow your lawn on sunday, for instance That's still a law in many parts of michigan in many states. That's a law You have noise ordinances which are set for specific days. You have all sorts thousands of different laws The application by the way to decency laws even with clothing is still set by municipalities to this day You can in fact refuse service to people based on how they're dressed. It's done all the time It's totally legal. There's no problem with it and for you to say if I think that you're acting like a woman And you're not i'm gonna throw you out to say that It's just gonna be so unsure. Nobody's gonna be fucking unsure. Nobody's gonna be confused. They never have been before Yeah, they have this with areas that have a lot of gang violence as well But you can't wear like a blue bandana or a red bandana The skateboarding laws littering laws Parking laws remember when if you were parked and making out with your boyfriend in the car The cops could come up and knock on the window and tell you you can't do that here These things have always existed and they still exist and you support them Yes, we support decency laws. Yes Wait, you think that you and your wife If you want to go out to like, I don't know like just Random like I don't know exactly really we want to go out and fucking public. We shouldn't be able to Yes, nina. Yeah, if you're in your own car and you're like kind of like I like kind of like a romantic spot You think that you should be you know, so do you think that if we're in a public area? And we're trying to have sexual intercourse in public that we should be arrested No, no, it's not in public. You're in your car. You're like that would be in public But not in our driveway. No, you have like like you're you have like a sheet over your car I'm not saying that would still be in public in front of people Yeah, that would still be in public. Okay. So you were that level of authoritarianism That's not authoritarianism Well, you can't walk around naked You should be arrested if you fuck with the windows open. Do you think you should be arrested for walking around naked? We answer my question Yeah, I think we've talked about this quite a bit And I think we've gotten enough response on the panel as far as that discussion about decency goes but Today we're talking about is saying trans men aren't men transphobic and we're going to try to bring that back to the topic So over to you stardust and let's try to keep it on point Yeah, I just want to finish up like uh, yeah, yes restaurants have different dress codes for based on how fancy they are Or whether they want people dressed a certain way to come in 100 that's the thing But when you have people living and working in an area and then you have laws based on different areas within that city You were inherently going to run into problems because somebody might work in one part of the city And then travel to the other part of the city to go home. And then when you've got somebody who Works in a specific industry that maybe they present a little bit more masculine than you'd like them to Yeah, we're going to run into issues. There are tomboys who want to dress as men Maybe not identifies men. There are women who want to wear male cut clothing out of decency I I've been in that situation because male cut clothing hides way more than than female cut clothing I I don't see the I I don't see how this law is going Okay, so start us reasonable. Let me finish. Okay. I don't see Run the clock out fine There I don't see how these laws are going to be reasonable Especially when you take into account that people live and work in different areas and people use clothes for different functions Okay, so to respond start us The people who have these restaurants where they set the clothing standard for fancy You have to be x amount of fancy to come in here Isn't it put on them their subjective metric for whether or not you're fancy enough for them to allow you in the establishment Yes, there's private business. So how do you know? Well, wait, how could they determine the objective criteria for that? I have no problem with the private business doing that answer my question How can they determine they're allowed to do that they can it's subjective to them? Yeah, it's a subjective criteria But but they definitely know when someone's dressed fancy enough to go in their establishment Yes, they know but they are a private business Why wouldn't a police officer have the same type of discrepancy when it came to how you were dressed in the street To know whether or not you were breaking the ordinances based on the spirit Based in the spirit of how the law was written the same way the restaurant knows based on the spirit of their policy Laws are not meant to be subjective to that extent laws are meant to be as widely Implementable as possible Right. Um, you are always going to have out You're always going to have outliers and and you're always you have to account for those outliers Well, why have any law make you cannot have You can most laws are made with the function of being as objective as possible So there's a standard across the board and we can still make them as objective as possible But in these minutiae cases that you're talking about Don't you think that it's the same as this objective interpretation of the person who has the fancy schmancy restaurant Where they can make the determination based on that you could steal appeal to the court However, you saw fit and then you could be you know Adjudicated that way like everybody else just like if you broke the standard decency laws Right this second and decided to walk down the street naked You would still have recourse for that even if you didn't believe in the law you could say no I wasn't naked. I had little star tassels on my nipples. So I'm not naked right stardust I'm not even me. I just have a little star tassels right here Again, this is going to add so much more confusion to this. Uh, so called stable society that you want When you've got, you know, people who use clothes in a different for different functions across the board Like little stardust new tassels. You're not naked though. I'm not naked officer. I promise Andrew, do you think I'm the type of person who goes nude in public? No, that's not the point though. Is it the point is to say that Nobody's going to be confused about whether or not you're walking down the road naked Just because you cover your nipples with little tiny tassels. Yeah, but we're talking about you're creating We're talking about women wearing steel-toed boots even with murder. There has to be an interpretation Because it's a subjective metric as to what justified means saying that You're making the argument that this is impossible due to complexity and it's certainly not impossible due to complexity Not only did we see it implemented, but it worked and it's not even that complex No, when when it wasn't implemented, it may have been implemented across it may have been implemented state by state But when you were talking about region by region, it is going to add complexity is is going to add confusion right now It not not to not to that extent. Yes to that extent there are areas there are areas where you have to adhere To the decency laws of the area, especially heavy religious communities. They still exist to this day You can't even mow your yard on sunday start us not kidding. Can't even mow it on on sunday There are communities where that's a noise complaints There but you when you make laws again You have to make those laws in a way that there can be an objective standard across the board when you You can't though like for nudity. Yes, there is but for things like steel For things like steel-toed boots and cargo pants. There is not going to be an objective How do you know something is a how do you know that something is murder or if it's self-defense? How do you know that a pair of cargo pants is male or female answer my question? Don't answer it with a question. How do you know if something's a justified murder or not justified? They have different standards for they have like a checklist, right? It comes down to a subjective metric of self-defense and that subjective metric is often contested And you can't even tell me what the subjective metric is I mean, there's reasonable There's reasonable, uh, there's reasonable like threat to yourself, right? But like yes, those things are things that you have to argue in court Sure But when you're talking about that that is way less subjective than something like whether cargo pants are male or female Then what you could do is you can continuously add to the list if that's what your only criteria is to get the Subjective metric lower. The law is going to be very long. There's always going to be an implementation of subjectivity In every single law that you look at anywhere. For instance, take a speed law. I'm amazed. Is it justified to speed? You might say no, but what if there's an emergency? Then maybe yes The spirit of a law also matters to the intent And so when you're looking at this and you say you just can't possibly have any decency laws whatsoever It's fucking absurd. Oh, I didn't say I didn't say all Decency laws, how do we know what you mean? When did I say all decency laws? I'm saying specific Let me give you an example Let me give you the example stardust Let's say you have really really really long hair And you use that hair to cover your boobs and you cover your, you know, nether regions And you walk down the street where nudity laws are strictly implemented But you have your hair covering it. Do you think that you should be in violation of those nudity laws or not? Yeah, absolutely, but we're talking about something like why that's subjective. You're not actually nude, right? Yes, they're not wearing clothes. You are nude. Yes. Oh wait, no But you're covered. How clothes are not Hair is not clothes, right? Hair is not clothes And this is how we we would determine these sorts of things Blame to me how you're going to determine cargo pants are male or female This is why we have judges That's a fair question. They wouldn't specifically have to be So how would you prove what they were wearing one of the steel-toed boots? I'm so confused here Yeah, then that was your own point Again, you wouldn't have to specifically make the determination that the steel-toed boots would to make it illegal You would You should freak out more because that helps you answer the question. How would they Rachel's been trying to say something. Let's let her in you guys I've been trying to just let it go But okay, she keeps harping on the steel-toed boots First of all, we talked about how it's a rule of three and all laws are adjudicated There's a reason why if you get pulled over for speeding you get to have your day in court If you get pulled over for whatever and you get a ticket you go to court so that in case there are Circumstances that are extreme or you know exceptional. You can explain what they are so let's say you get ticketed for uh wearing a fake moustache And steel-toed boots and being shirtless in public with your hairy chest because you're on your testosterone And you go to the court and you say look your honor I was only wearing my steel-toed boots because I'm the one in one billion women that actually works a hard construction job The judge can then decide, you know, maybe we're going to make an exception in this case or not And the judge may say well, yeah, but you were shirtless with your hairy chest out And even though you've had a mastectomy, I mean, I'm just gonna so that's what the that's what courts are there for That's what judges are there for this is how the american judicial system works And you guys are trying to act like if we can't make an across the board Fully clear law then we just can't have them and this is how all laws work Sure the issue is is that from region to region it is still going to vary drastically because you've got women You you've got women great, but you have women now You have women who want to wear male cut clothing for decency say right are we going to Yes, a lot of places might say look we don't care so much if women are wearing male clothing To a degree like we don't want them having beards or we don't want them like specifically trying to impersonate men But they might there might be some places that say that's fine But that you cannot do that if you're a man impersonating a woman because women are inherently biologically weaker Okay, okay, women spaces things of it. You guys know about trans exclusionary radical feminists, right? Yeah Who are not cool? I want to stay on track here, right? So Yeah, they're a bunch of idiots. I know they're a bunch of big heads. I don't I don't care But I think like I want to ask you like if your policy is law-based, right? Um, do you think that if you're wanting to dress up as abraham lincoln and you're a biological female? Whatever phrase you want to use? Um, like says, you know, whatever, um, like They should be arrested for wearing a beard No, so there was exceptions which were put in the law even then You understand what you're doing Stop asking me a fucking question the second I start to answer it. Yes. I didn't really think that you needed to So one more time. I'm gonna try to answer your question. There were exceptions already put into those laws for things like actors For certain criteria for plays for all sorts of different things Acting like this is an impossibility due to complexity I need to stop. No, I need it. I need I need to stop you right there I need to stop you right there just because I want to keep on track with this Okay, so what if you are Going to be an actor in a play and you are Doing your makeup Um, you already have your makeup done and you were doing that to go to that play I already gave this exception multiple times. Oh, I'm asking Andrew Yeah, so you get out of your car and you go in I would assume very public You're obviously going to be like around a lot of people Yeah, and a cop comes over and says to you are you violating the public DC laws and you say no I'm heading off to be an actor in a play and he goes, okay, then have a good day Would that apply to anyone in general then it could but just like it just like it kind of seems like it's a fucking pointless thing Let me give you a counter example There are people who wear what are called nudesuits where they are wearing clothes No, no, we're not talking about nudesuits Just shut up Stop talking hold on there Nina, so there are people who wear the skin tight nudesuits They wear skin tight nudesuits where it presents them as being naked even though they're completely painted Or they're actually wearing a physical suit Now they're violating the public decency law of being nude. Is there a problem with an officer? Is there a problem with an officer walking over to that person and saying Right, we're not talking about nudes. Stop talking Nina. Let me finish the question You can clarify like I said afterwards It is fair. Okay. It is fair. Okay. So is there a problem with them walking over to that person and saying to them Hey, you look like you're naked and that person going. No, I'm not. It's actually a suit Are those people getting arrested in mass and thrown in prison because I don't think they are I have no idea what you're referring to but that's not what we're talking about All right, let me you clarify there. Nina what you had meant there so we can Kind of hammer it. I'm just talking to you people who were like we're literally talking about like the The concept of indecency laws in that level is so unfreedom. I know your name is bipak papa fascist I get that fine, but like I just want to like really reiterate that from everyone like that is the most Unfreedom shit I've ever heard of like you can just be uh get arrested because you're just like what not girly enough like like Rachel's got a fucking bigger chin than you do like what is she not going to get fucking cocked every once in a while? As you know, we definitely you're on mute right now We definitely want to make it a policy that we don't make comments on other people's appearance. Uh, so Let us just try to okay. Let me finish. I was not making a personal insult That was not at all my attention. I think that you're beautiful. Rachel. We love you Um, I was not at all personal and so what I'm saying is somebody might I don't know perceive her more like It's like Perceive me as more masculine than Andrew literally no one No one is going to do that. You're okay. Well, I've had that happen to me and I'm just saying like I'm just saying this is something that's happened to me Maybe that you've been lucky enough that it hasn't happened to you, but I'm just saying like I was just I was doing as a hypothetical. I did not mean to insult you at all. I'm sorry. We love you, Rachel I think you're beautiful. Um, but like I have been like perceived like uh got like the transvestigation shit where they thought I was the trans woman I am a biologic or I'm sorry. It's this team or God damn it My wording is so bad. You give what I mean, um, but like, uh, I don't get what you mean. What do you mean? You've been investigated for being a trans born. I was born a female. Yes. Yes People thought I was a trans woman and it was like I I then at some point like was we don't need to get into it that much, but like No, we need to definitely get into this. When did they think you were a trans woman? Um, when I was getting bullied at my Christian school Why did wait they thought you were a dude? um, I mean I guess, you know, if you want to use that what do you mean? I guess did they think you were a guy or not? I am a fab like, uh No, what did they think they thought you were a guy? They thought I was a yes. They thought I was a, uh male that was like and I'm like talking like high school Shit, um, like like so like I understand that bullying and so it wasn't an insult So I I don't I don't mean it in that way. I didn't want to make you feel bad, Rachel That was not my entire worry. You can't make me feel bad. All right, let's move on to the next super jet and get it Can I interject real quick? Just really really quick if you got five seconds five seconds Okay, so when you guys are talking about decency laws that exist today for the most part I think that you guys are talking about nudity and shirtlessness. Um, but decency laws I think decency laws are fines for things that are explicit like that, right? Especially when it's a disturbance to the public or it's infringing upon other people's, uh, you know, um, rights essentially, right? I'm sorry for cutting you off so quickly But the the next question is for you guys and I usually like to try to end it on the other side So, uh, I think we've all gotten a lot of thoughts out on this one and we will circle back I don't want to cut you off. Uh, I just had like one sentence more Okay. All right, if you can do it and cut just a couple seconds Yeah, okay. So again, so yeah Decency laws are fines for things like nudity and explicitness, right? I think the government might have trouble imposing a clothing standard Standard because it would be against the first amendment. Aren't I extra? They're giving extra time And it was and it was against that's what they repealed it. That was the last second I was allowing for that super chat. So we are going to move on some flower for ten dollars Dollars all may have had some kind of inferiority complex because her parents adopted two African children She may have felt unloved or unwanted Nina stardust. Is Transracialism possible in fringe cases? I believe that, um, so, okay I don't believe in transracialism. What I do think is that there are plenty of people who are raised in different cultures Uh, that don't really align with the one that they grow like that they Uh, technically, you know belong to right for example, like people will look at me all the time And say wow, you speak really good English and you talk like a white person. So, um, so, you know, like Yeah, things things like um People enjoying things from different cultures or even growing up in in engrossed in another culture And I think that's fine But to claim that you are of the ethnic background of a different culture doesn't really make sense to me So now you're getting it. Now you're getting it. I'm proud of you Oh, oh, can I I mean, I told you I told you like 20 minutes ago. I don't believe in them Yeah, but you don't understand the implication of the inconsistency. That's the problem. It's not inconsistent. No It is inconsistent. Listen, I don't believe them based on a biological reality that they can't change that you know is untrue No, there's no biological. How do you biologically prove that they're black? When you when a person transitions from male to to man to woman They they and they Transition to passing society treats them as a passing woman, right? When somebody can't really no, no, no, no, no They just face the same transition to be a different race. How do you biologically prove they're black? Nina? What what would tip you off that somebody? Just a lot of that somebody was black Nina. I hope to tip you off for that What would be the thing that you would look at and be like I think that person's black What could that possibly be? I have no idea I don't either. I have no idea either. Nina. I have no clue. What would ever tip a person off another person was black What could it ever be? What could it be? Next question coming in. All right. All right before we get Literally in the word black Before we get done with another rabbit So your entire ideology is based on skin color? No There's a lot of black people with a lot of different cultures. So what is black culture? All right, we've managed to make our way really off base again here guys. So we're I don't know what it is You're the one I'm done. I'm done. Just go to the super chat. Yeah, next next question guys because I'm sorry. Just really quick. I just want to because I'm x-rays. I I literally don't care. I just don't care. I just I know you don't care because I have other things to do. I understand that doesn't matter But the my point is like did you just call me racist? Yes, I did. How many Nazis have you debated? I have subtleties What I have subtleties Like I am I have I don't think that they're racist. I don't think that they're racist. Can you please meet them? Is it this fun? All right, just let me get through this and then we'll we'll it's it's quite We've got 15 seconds and then I'm moving on to the next group chat. Yes, absolutely Everybody Mixed-raced I am half Japanese half white. So like how I identify with my size is like I identify with my white side because like I don't have any actual like real connections to like the um My Japanese side. So I would say I am more white or more. I guess like tactic if we're being technical german um, I uh resonate with that I identify With that side more than I do with my Japanese side Nina How would you be? No, we're moving on moving on moving on that a person was black What would be the thing that would maybe stand out? We circle Let's let's let's move on through the super chats. Uh, yeah, because we're circular I never got an answer by the way. I don't care. Yeah, you don't you don't care Well, let's move on guys, uh, because yeah, we got things that will bring us more closer to home Maybe not this one though. I ain't go fling. I just I think mod just for clarity Now that I think about it There's actually nothing that comes to mind for me either At all that would ever tip me off As to whether or not somebody was black I have no idea. There's not a single thing I can think of nothing. There's nothing I could be black about you All right, let's carry on the mod could be black the moderator could be black Well, he's obviously black. Look at him. We don't know. There's some light skin Let's carry on everybody if y'all way and that's why I said this is not gonna get us back on On track hanko flamie. Oh, but I gotta ask it because it's not anything hateful If y'all way doesn't allow christians to be polite then christians should pray for a new covenant I've got them. Yeah, there's not too much there. That's more of an accuracy hanko flamie. Oh comes in again andrew Is y'all way jewish thing or yeah, let's uh, let's go into the more of the substantive Question from hanko flamie. Oh, he put in a smaller one here I think to kind of be a little less decorative and uh, ask a question. So thanks for that hanko flamie. Oh Andrew our females who wear pants mentally ill no I would say that they are every female number's pants mentally. All right, let's not double that again There's the ones that well, I won't even get into it Any other thoughts around the panel there before we move on that was very quick from andrew on that question I just want to say you you can transition In a way that people will perceive you as a certain sex You can't transition in a way that people will perceive you as a different race Maybe there are things that you can do if you're like mixed race to make you See be perceived like in a different way. There's nothing start us there is nothing that would ever even tell you a person was black Michael jack well michael jackson's a fringe case, right? I thought we don't care They had a skin condition by the way It this is something that I actually No, no nina. There's no It wasn't it. It wasn't an Yeah, it wasn't an identification. So using it in that context Getting it getting it in decent. I don't care. I'm saying that this is a really bad example because it has nothing That's not polite that is not polite that I don't care Oh my god Nina for that by the way Why would that he had vitiligo? No that you say hey woman woman take a break take a break from the debate and grab me a drink You don't even need to be here. I will after I say one thing Which is that by the way as orthodox christians when we visit a monastery There are requirements that I and my daughters as females wear skirts We do have to cover our heads and we do have to wear skirts We have to cover our arms down to our wrists and we have to cover our legs down to our ankles And that's not hard for anyone to figure out how to do Everybody knows what that means. It's impossible. The nuns. Yes at the monastic. What is what doesn't he have to do it? Why do you have to do it? Because I'm a man and the patriarchy has proof Yeah, but what can you explain to me why can I really I would like to relate I want to relate Okay, when I go to the mosque when I go to the mosque Yes, I have to cover my head too and I have to dress very modestly No, there's no way for them to determine what that modesty is. There's no problem. It's impossible. No, wait Wait, wait, wait, there is 100 percent. There is there. You know, yes, there is I agree with you But the again, these are private institutions. No, there's no there's no way. It's too complex stardust It's way too complex. There's no possible way for them to make a determination If you go mosque mosque, the standard is going to be the same Really? So in some of them, can you wear red? Some of them you can't wear red headscarves She's trying to make a point. Can you just let her do it? Well, yeah for for the most part I guess unless it's a unless it I don't think that there are many mosques that will have problems with color choices No, there are there are mosques that have trouble with color choices. Yeah, not many though. I think for the most part But how would you know? It's an impossible standard. Like you might have to ask and stuff. It's crazy. What is your point? Wait, what is your Andrew? My point is is that when you reduce these things you start to understand the argument of infinite complexity is absurd Walking from I'm not I'm not just going to random mosque randomly, right? Generally people go to a mosque or a church or a temple, right? Generally inside of a demographic area But when you live in a city, you will work in one area You'll walk to the other people travel all the time to different cities to see friends and family Right, like there are going to be there are going to be parts where it's confusing That this is there's a huge difference between making laws regionally, right in hyper regionally Versus a private institution having standards for who what's the distinction if one can enforce them Why can't the other? They can try to but I'm saying it's going to be very inefficient and very It doesn't seem to me It seems like you just want to confuse it yet when it applies to you For things like the type of gear that you have to wear when you go to a mosque You don't seem to have any trouble and there seems to be no confusion Only somehow there's going to be confusion You have you have your line out inside of a Generally people generally people who go to a mosque or a temple they go to the same place Start us we're going to let Nina in here as well And usually people who are inside of a city also stay inside the city That's not really true All right, I don't even know what you're arguing. No, no, no, I think that That's because I have no idea Nobody surprised Nina. Nobody shot. All right Let's uh, yeah, okay. All right. Did you guys want to move on or did you have some thoughts there? Nina before we close I would love to move on. Okay. Let's do that. Uh, we're rachel's back. Welcome back rachel Uh, thank you. Let us carry on. Uh, you know what? It might be a little bit juicy It might be a little bit fun. There might be a little bit of managing going on But I think we're you know, having a really good conversation as far as this goes So if you enjoy it too guys hit the like button all of the betas are going to be linked in the description So if you like what you're hearing you can find them there Uh, so let's carry on the herman cane awards life gets a lot simpler once you realize most conservative arguments and interests Boiled down to other people's genitalia Hi brow. All right thoughts on that Uh sounds a little perverted to me, but you know when it comes to decency standards It's not about just genitalia. It's also about the way that people act inside of society Well, how do you it's I'd like to say that all standards for progressives also only come down to genitalia As the thing is is they only seem to want to implement laws which allow them to show more of theirs to you Yes Can you give me can we give me one example? Oh, let's see. Oh, I know I absolutely want to hear what you want to say I just want I just hold on one second there Nina. All right. So andrew where you got talked over the end there I'm gonna let you clarify your question. Rachel. I know you got a question If you could really just hold on to it for one second We'll let andrew ask this question let them answer and then if you can hold on to that we'll carry on So andrew the floor is yours Yeah, so to answer your question directly all of the things in which in all policies Which progressives implement for additional freedoms actually additional perversion additional nudity That's all that they want. They want additional Non-restrictions on public decency Literally every policy that they implement is for the pushing of degeneracy Especially in the public arena more gay pride parades more public displays of genitalia And yet the conservatives you say they're the ones who are concerned with it when all the progressives do is try to push it literally in people's faces Can I respond to that? Yeah Yeah, okay, so that's very silly the thing like you think that progressive policies are based on cultural shit I think that maybe it's because you are so like brainbroken by being like just like a right-wing show or whatever But like no progressive policy or shit like healthcare I want everyone to be able to have health care for all that is a progressive to get their genitals fixed I don't Wait, no, I let you talk. That's that's a little unfair that you're gonna talk over me Go ahead. I'm saying like when we're talking about progressive policies We're talking about the shit like medicare for all we're talking about like a higher wage. We're talking about union um support we're talking about thing that Affects the average individual in the united states We're not talking about culture worship because we don't care about that Progressive policies want to change things not just like you don't care about the culture I'm not done talking please. Uh, we're not doing something to uh, 15 seconds to distract from uh, yeah I'm sorry to distract from the the normal culture But we are looking for things as progressives to be able to make the world fucking better and make it better For the average individual Okay, so nina we were being hyper specific about these specific policies right wingers also have Policies when it comes to things like immigration foreign policy on wars economic you're saying that our economic policies All of these different policies which are there that right wingers implement But when it comes to the culture when I just named several now when it comes to the culture itself You the difference between you and my prescription is you are do as thou will Unlimited amounts of nudity and limited amounts of only fans and limited amounts of pornography and limited amounts of shot Nina I did I did say You know personal degeneracy that is the cultural prescription of the leftist Whereas the right winger the right winger says no that cultural prescription for unlimited amounts of degeneracy needs to be reigned back in That's the distinction. What is you're just saying things Okay, if I can I will say I think it is a bit hypocritical that we have Made the standard to not comments on other people's Personal things right so andrew I do have to say I do disapprove of you keeping Continuing to make jabs at nina for whatever only fans shit Even if I don't you know if it's not for me just like I disagree with nina making jabs at rachel for appearance things It's totally fine with me. I didn't even know what I will say What I will say What I will say is um is that I do not see people making gay pride parades legally required anymore Um, uh, do I think that sometimes sometimes do I think let me finish? I I don't see them. I don't see gay pride parades being something that is legally required Right, what do I think that sometimes I'll look at like a pride parade and I think that somebody dressed in a dog suit Is just a little bit, you know too much. Yeah, I'll agree with you on that but um, but uh when it comes to like policies and things like that, um, I am not for the limiting of personal freedom unless that personal freedom is hurting other people I haven't been given an argument as to why Something like people being allowed to dress the way they want and present the way that they want Is harmful to other people Yes, you have you just dismissed them. You actually have not I don't agree with it I don't actually have not contended with it at all. You just say I disagree, but that's not a contention the argument That's one and two The commenter said why is it that? Conservatives are only concerned with people's genitalia when in fact the opposite is true And all of the prescriptions that come from the progressive left are for the permissive Use of trying to show as much genitalia to as many people as possible at all times If you think that that's not true, then you explain to me why it is you want no decency laws at all Why it is that you want? Oh, I didn't say no decency laws. Let me finish When it comes to things like age restrictions on pornography Why is it that we uh, we don't try to tackle those cultural issues? The next thing is how come it is that you don't implement staunch staunch laws when it comes to indecency at gay pride parades Why is it that you do everything that you possibly can to make it as permissive as possible to rearrange children's genitalia? These are progressive policies Not conservative. Okay, if I can reply to this one I have never been against decency laws when it comes to the people being explicit I told you that I don't like men being shirtless. I don't need to see your pecs, dude I don't need to see your nipples. That's a little bit too personal for me. Secondly. I'm not against. Um, uh, I'm not very bigoted Oh, I said, okay Rachel, come on. Let's be good faith here. I said this at the beginning of the debate. I'll be good. I don't like Please be good faith with me because I've been trying to be good faith with you guys Okay, I'll be good faith with you if you're good faith. I don't I don't like shirtless men. I never have I hate it I hate sneaco because he's always kind of in he is showing his nipples to me. I don't like it. Okay Secondly, I don't I don't I don't know what this policy is about about limiting not limiting about Allowing young people to access to pornography. I don't agree with that. I think that's fucking degenerate as fuck Uh, thirdly. Yeah, I disagree people shouldn't be in dog suits at fucking pride parades. That's fucking weird That's just weird now start us. Can you acknowledge then if you're being good faith? That progressives are the ones who say that we shouldn't be able to bring back decency over the airwaves Decency over the airwaves laws that stop the swearing and degeneracy inside of radio music wearing that Shut up Nina one second. That that they Uh progressives constantly push through policies and try their hardest to make sure that there's no regulation for things Like only fans for things like prostitution for things like gay pride parades They push through none of this and they'd say all the time that we can't do it because it's either infinitely complex There's no way it's possible or they say it's because it's an adherence to a personal freedom So to be as good faith with you as I possibly can be to answer the super chatters question When they say that conservatives are obsessed with genitalia, isn't it the opposite? That's actually true start us So it has the FCC's like restrictions been um limited because I wasn't aware of that I guess that that would be yeah, they're constantly being eroded The FCC really okay. Well, that's I mean that's a case like um, it used to be that Uh, I mean you you can't imagine how restrictive it used to be used to be very restrictive You couldn't even kiss on the silver screen unless it was in a foreign movie For instance that was imported because of the staunch regulations inside of hollywood But even if we were to go back to just some kind of basic decency standard You wouldn't even be able to imply sexual intercourse in the way that it's done on television now You wouldn't have any of the gay scenes. You wouldn't have any of this shit All this degenerate stuff is pushed through by the progressive left to put The genitals as close to your face as they possibly can not by the right Okay, if I can I will I will agree with you that you know progressives Do believe in like personal liberty In in certain aspects, but I would say So yes, they are they tend to be the ones who are fine with like things like Illusions to sex with cursing Very into you know seeing The hints that um explicitness on in movies or even like outright just seeing sex scenes in movies It's not it's not only yes. I will say progressives are a bit more free with that 100% But it's it's not them alone. So well keeping us right on cue and I think rachel's facial expression Expressed how she felt while you were speaking there. So, uh, you know You get that if you watch the show if you're watching the podcast, you might not see that So manga fan dan five dollars decency laws sound like fascism What if people want to be gothic or androgynous? This is america lend of the free pro Well, I mean it it was When people say this it's so hilarious to me because it means that they are historically ignorant And they don't understand the founding of this nation at all So in the beginning of the america andre you're uh muted I don't know if you know that you're muted, but in the beginning of the country you couldn't even be catholic here Okay, they didn't even let catholics in Just so you know We were we were burning people at the stake for witchcraft at the founding of the country So rachel's a good event to say that this america questions It's americans let everyone do whatever the fuck they want is nonsense. Okay, it's historical illiteracy to believe that You know, we should just let everyone do whatever they want because it's a miracle. That's no That was not the case until maybe the 1970s If you didn't know that That's on the other side That was incoherent. Holy shit. What are you talking about? I was an incoherent I'm gonna be rare with the question next time just to be direct Yeah, sure thing. Uh, let me just scroll back up here as I keep an eye on the super chat and All all those all those people that are hanging out there and all the good people we love them Yeah, so I was gonna say I see ashley is hanging out there Uh, obviously osean's hanging out anathema riley. We appreciate you guys and even the haters in the chat, you know Hey, you're hanging out. You're making the stream popular. You're saying stuff. Thanks. You are canadian. I am canadian You can't hurt. Yeah, can you I'll just be so sorry. You can't help it. Let's read the question everybody So sorry, you know that you're unhappy not actually our sorry in canada is more like a sorry You're so stupid a all right manga fan. Dan are um Decency laws sound like fascism. What if people want to be gothic or androgynous? This is america land of the free Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, so it was it was completely It was completely coherent for me to say that the founding of america never included do whatever the fuck you want Whenever the fuck you want they didn't like canadians it or they all Runners You couldn't do witchcraft. We had these laws So what i'm saying is people who believe that america people who believe that america was founded on you do you bro Are historically illiterate. No, I think that no, I think that's the exact opposite perspective that we're trying to get at I think that there was a lot of like really weird fundamental Aspects that we had when this country started becoming like a nation like We're not that old like it's kind of crazy to think about like in comparative to like a lot of other ones We're actually a very young country and I think one of our biggest No, no, let her Let you speak Nina, so go ahead Sorry We're um when we're talking about here is like, uh, what this country fucking stands for this country chance for freedom It is built on the entire concept of freedom So the idea of you being like, uh, I don't know subject to like having to have these rigid banners or some bullshit We're getting arrested because you're wearing the wrong clothes. That's disgusting That is an authoritarian piece of shit concept that I think that you should be ashamed of if you want to be an american I know you're pro-marchy, um, andrew So it's not really that surprising that you would have this position Like the idea of the whole like concept of freedom. You're not a fucking freedom like loving american Don't you want hate speech laws, Nina? BTFO Don't you want hate speech laws? Can I can I enter? No, no, it's my turn. I'm related Nina. Don't you want hate speech? You look very Andrew's turn. Can I get the last word at least hate speech laws, Nina? Now what we're talking about don't you want hate speech laws, Nina? Can you not engage what I just said? Don't you want hate speech laws, Nina? Anti freedom. It's anti freedom to So are hate speech laws anti freedom? Yeah Are anti hate speech laws freedom, Nina? We're gonna have a we can have a conversation about this I have a problem with that talking about this. Answer my question You are so fucking What is wrong with you? This is the most good faith question a person can ask. Do you want this or not? Do you want anti hate speech? Yes, it is. It's a one-to-one comparison and I'll explain how you say that I'm a fascist because I want these implementations of these draconian laws How this ties into what he said Handle can I get the last word if I can't get in now? I told you it's a debate handle go back and watch it yourself, but nina it's a one-to-one comparison You said that it's a fascist draconian policy to implement these freedom hating policies But aren't you for hate speech laws? And why aren't those fascists nina we're just getting a little too much cross talk So I'm gonna let nina respond to this and pass it back to you guys and then over to start us to close this one out So back to you nina. Yeah, I know you're being bad faith about this So I don't really want to engage with this that much more so let's start us take it away So you have no argument at all Okay, I will say Yeah, it's been 247 years since america was founded Just because certain things were part of america when it was founded It doesn't mean I agree that they should be part of america today. I personally value freedom I value individual liberty to an extent to the extent that you're not hurting other people um personally I don't think um, I agree with like hate speech laws necessarily Unless it is an explicit threat or an explicit promise to do something to somebody Then I think you have reasonable Concern, you know to be to be concerned about that But yeah, I would say that in general Unless you're being explicit with the way that you're dressing I don't really think that in my personal opinion It's very based or freedom-pilled to Kind of restrict the way that people can express themselves. So let's start with a great good I didn't hear it That mic is pretty loud. So let's just try to behave ourselves there And we cut all kinds of questions coming in here. I don't mind having back and forth But I was told before the debate that there would be certain time restrictions potentially Uh, so maybe I should check in with everybody. Andrew, rachel, nina stardust. How are you guys doing? We're good. I got I got time All right, we still got a few super chats to go but knowing you fellas this could take another 30 minutes So just sit tight to everybody and we'll get through them. Uh, you know, it's been a juicy discussion hit that like button We're having a lot of fun over here. Uh, keep the chat flow and keep the super chats coming in We appreciate you guys all hanging out there Uh, love everybody. We will continue on here. So, uh osean talks comes in with another one just wear a single dress One item not three It's kind of a vibe. I guess how would that work in your world? Yeah, so I think what this person is saying is that with the rule of threes How would this apply because a person a man could be wearing Um, could be dressed as a man completely be wearing man's shoes, etc The only one thing is the dress, right? He said to the localized ordinance And it would be up to the perception and the prescription of the leo Who was in charge of enforcing the spirit of whatever those localities laws through just nina You got you have to let me answer the question even though I ask you to answer questions. You won't I actually try to So anyway, this would be up to the localized authority as to whether or not there was a violation of the spirit of the law There is something called malicious compliance. This is a military term people do it all the time malicious compliance is where you're maliciously complying with the law Right, but not with the spirit of the law And if you think that you're not judged on that you are incorrect because you are the same way that you are when you're in the military So to just to say like we can subvert this law by trying to move around it They'll just make laws which accommodate that then so it's even less subjective. Which is what used to be done Can I can I chime in sure thing? Yep Well, well, I'll tell you how I would handle this If a man was walking around in public And he he only just had on a dress I would be fine with that as long as I am permitted to point at him and laugh You you have that ability now And I would point and I would laugh he wanted to have that ability under your age Yeah, okay. Wait, hold on. Yes. I absolutely want her to have the like legal ability to do that Yes, I absolutely think that she should be able to do that If she wants to like point at me wearing a shitty dress and laugh or whatever Like she should absolutely have the right to do that. What is your issue with that? Is it is it transphobic to do that? Well, I mean you can say that some of these dresses not really that You can say somebody's dress is ugly without it being transphobic. You can say it looks bad on them If I'm if a man walked around in a dress We would just point at him and laugh and generally That kept men from walking around in public in dresses. So that's what I that's almost You know, you might not even need the decency laws if you guys just point and laugh at people We do do that now and it's helpful Yeah, yeah, but you should be able to make fun of like anybody like wearing an outfit that you don't like, right? I would think so but you're the one for hate speech law. So I'm not sure Yeah, we're being Can we agree on that level like you you can have the freedom can he call me inward Nina? What do you mean? Are you talking? You were talking about legally. Let's be careful. I think that you should legally be able to make fun of somebody I don't think you should do it I don't think you should do it. No, I think you're a piece of shit and you should get every recompense It's going to happen in terms of the social aspects. What about law? All right, legally you can say the n-word. It's already something. Yes. Yes legally you can say the n-word I'm asking you about an Do you think Nina that people should be allowed to say the n-word to black people out in public Without being arrested. Yeah If we're talking about legally, yeah, I don't think that that's like a good Uh metric for arresting somebody. What about misgendering? I don't think anybody should be arrested for misgendering. Well, I think you brought it back should be arrested at least I think I don't really want hate speech laws I don't want hate speech laws. Do you guys think that people should be allowed to say that? Um christians are lunatics and that they should all jump off a cliff. They do now Yeah, that's fine. They do now. Okay all the time. That's fine. Yeah, it's across the board I think we agree then All right. Well, let's get on to the next super chat here. Everybody keep your super chats coming in and I just want to remind everybody once again That we do have our crowdfund linked in the description along with our tickets to debate con four Lots of people are going to be showing up for that lots of great faces that you've seen on modern day debate Lots of great people that you see in our mod chat there James going to be there. I'm going to be there. Andrew's going to be there I imagine Rachel will be there if Andrew is going to be there I'm actually going to be at home with the kids, but he is going to be there. So definitely go there and see Andrew See, I understand that because my wife and I will I will I've made this promise right if if if you guys go out to this thing If you guys go out to this thing, um I'd like to you know, I think we're going to do like lunch and shit with some people So I think that'll be fun to do with the fans Oh, yeah, yeah, there'll be I think two lunches Well, I mean I'll because I'll be there for two days, but there's the lunch and then there's like an after dinner as well Uh, you know, so I for any debaters that are on modern day debate as well You know, that could be a lot of fun for you to come hang out with everybody and see the faces and get to know The people that are doing the debates and just you know, get used to the fact that these are just other people in the world You know, they'll probably shake your hand give you a hug and say how you doing, right? so Yeah, no, don't don't be Don't don't be tying people too closely to the things that they believe because we're all just people at the end of the day Elijah Riviera says if science shows the hypo ethylama Giving me this word Elijah you you should warn me before this happens If the science shows that the hypo ethylamas gland mutation causes a person to become trans or lgbtq Why do people want to give them an identity? Does anyone have any fucking yeah, I will jump in on that so Um, it's very straightforward Not to mention the fact that it's a very thin group of people that need to be able to have a good money The graph that shows the hypo ethylamas gland mutation causes a person to become trans or lgbtq Plus why do people want to give them an identity? Does anyone have any fucking yeah, I will jump in on that. So been on that. So it's very interesting to know what they're talking about. Yeah, yeah. So there are sometimes hormonal or biological bases by which people have these issues. That is a real thing. But we have medical diagnostic tools and treatments to treat that. So for instance, a post menopausal woman who is super duper low on estrogen, and she needs some estrogen so that she can sleep and not have hot flashes and and horrific like side effects from it. That's fine. Right. And so if somebody has some kind of hormonal imbalance or issue that's causing them to, you know, not feel congruent with their biological sex, that's treatable. We don't have to assign that. So since they feel female, right, because they're low T, this is something really common. Younger men who are really low testosterone because they have some kind of biological problem, you treat the problem and they're still male, we don't have to call them women because they don't feel masculine because they're low T. Do you know what I'm saying? Any thoughts on the other side of the panel there? I still don't you did not define what I asked you to what was the word again? The question was if somebody has a pituitary or hormonal issue which is causing them to have issues with their gender identity, why are we feeling the need to assign them a biological like a gender rather than a condition? Okay, absolutely. Okay, within this context, there's obviously a very hypothetical, but like within this context, like it's pretty common. They're pretty sure. And they're pituitary. They don't have a lot of they don't really have like a gender identity that they side for. And because of their pituitary issue, they might have more like female traits if they're like even like, or I'm sorry, more like generally, like, I guess, this was first female traits as being like a male, like, I mean, if they want to be like, it doesn't really seem like the big issue, it's just kind of like, we're kind of having the same conversation, where it's like, I don't think that's inherently the going to be the condition. But like, if people have that, it's like, okay, whatever. I just don't understand what what I really want to see from you guys is why is this a big deal? You have not been able to demonstrate harm. No, you're on mute there, Andrew, if you want to respond. Okay, so let's walk through how I can demonstrate this as being harmful. Is your consideration for harm utils, meaning maximum utility is the opposite of harm. So so harm. That's not happiness. One second. Well, what you're so how do you tell me what harm is? Well, I'm asking you, what do you think harm it? Well, my perspective, you're the one that I'm advocating to support these things. I'm trying to walk you. You said I can't demonstrate. I'm trying to clarify my position is giving me two seconds and then absolutely clarify your position. Like my my position is I don't think it if we're going to be like very broad about it. I don't think that affirming a gender identity as seen any meaningful harm compared to the opposite. Okay, so considering this, you do agree that Christians follow the value of the ninth commandment unrelated. What do you mean? It's unrelated. Nina, listen to what I'm saying. This is super important. And let's let them explain this. You're you literally just said I don't see the value of the opposition saying that it causes them them harm to know we're specifically talking about trans people. So am I. So I'm saying that the people who would be misgendering them, they're going to value their Christian faith and say that under the ninth commandment, they can't bear false witness. So for them to gender that person or call a male a female, they are lying and bearing false witness. Do you think that that's not harmful to them? Or is it harmful to them? I personally don't think that God exists. Okay. I personally don't think that that's to them. Is it harmful to them? I don't think transgender. No, you're able to use an example. I think I should I should give I should give the direct ability to do the same. Yeah, but Nina, I'm going to be good. Let me finish. Good. I'm gonna help you. Let's give her 10 seconds. We'll pass it back to you, Andrew. Please. Yeah, I can probably do in two minutes. I'm sorry. I don't believe that God exists. However, I know that you're religious. I think that you should be able to be religious as much as I disagree with your perspective on that. I still think that you should have the ability because we live in America and I believe in freedom that you should be able to believe in what you believe in. You're on mute, Andrew. Somehow again, but you're not on mute on my call. Yeah, you're muted. I'm sorry. I'm it's not this is what you get for cross streaming. I've been told not to say that. I think what he's what he's trying to say while he figures that out is that all all we could understand after hearing Nina talk is it reminds me of the Miss North Carolina pageant video. No, I mean, we have this. You've been so bad. You need to respond to what I think. Okay, I think we're good. I think we're good. Okay, so listen, Nina, I'm saying to you from the perspective of the trans person, you would agree with me that they perceive that it's harmful to be misgendered by Christians, right? It has nothing to do with Christians. Wouldn't they feel like it was harmful to be misgendered by Christians? It's not it's not a competition between like like Christians and wouldn't they feel these are harmed by being misgendered by Christians? Well, yeah, the same way they would with any okay, it is a completely irrelevant with Christians. Since we have established that they will they feel like they would be harmed by being misgendered by Christians. Do you think that Christians would feel harmed by breaking the covenant of their ninth commandment and lying to them? Do you think that from the Christians perspective, they're being harmed? I don't know. I don't I don't have the perspective. I just gave it to you. Is that they're violating? You're asking my opinion on the Christian perspective and I don't know the Christian perspective because I'm not a Christian. Well, we do have a assume for a second. Assume for a second that I'm telling you that Christians ninth commandment is that they shall not bear false claims. That's their ninth command. Okay, and they follow. Would you assume then that it would be harmful to them from their perspective to violate that? Okay, well, I don't think it's a lie. I asked you multiple times. What's the lie? What's the lie about being transgender? Okay, so you, you, you, I'll answer your question. I'll answer your question. I'll answer your question. And it's a very simple. Yeah, I was gonna say, we're gonna let Nina close out her thought there and then we'll let you respond. I thought she just asked the question. Yeah, no, no, I just didn't hear what he said. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I would really like you to prove and to some extent, like how that's a fucking lie. Okay, trans in my personal opinion, it's not a lie. It's just how people feel and the way that they they represent their their feelings on how they look at themselves. Okay, so we're gonna help you out here. Can man, I don't want you to help me out. Yeah, biological men can't be women and biological women can't be men. And we know this for sure. You don't have any argument. Even you know this for sure. You've stated it multiple times during this debate. You know it for sure. So since this is the case, from the Christian perspective, from the Christian perspective, you need to clarify what I don't want you to get away with just saying that I think something. What do you think I said? You specifically said that biological men cannot be biological women. I don't know where I guess I wasn't just characterizing you right? You know, in like a reason that I don't feel like it's enough that I feel like you are disinterpreting what I'm saying in a way that I feel like is annoying. Let's just move on with that. Okay, close enough. Fine. So close. So from the Christian perspective, calling this personal woman would be a lot I do not have a Christian perspective. I know. But from the Christian perspective, calling this personal woman would be a lie, right? I don't know. What's your perspective? That calling this person a woman would be a lie. Okay. So that it would that cause me harm to have to lie and break one of my faithful commandments? I don't know. Does it? Yes. So considering that if you considered suicide because that you had to you had to like be nice to somebody else. Wait a second. They're holding me emotionally hostage Nina light. They're holding me emotionally. Are you saying that they're saying like it's a hard thing? Wait a second. Nina, you're saying that they're saying that if I don't lie to them, they're going to kill themselves. No, I'm not saying that. I don't know that. I don't know that about them. I don't know who you're referring to. I don't know who in your life. So if they're not going to do that, then if you can establish that it's harmful for from a Christian perspective for them to lie to the to the trans person, you only see it in the one dimension. You have not been able to define with a lie. I did and you even agreed with me from the Christian perspective. If they don't believe that a man is a woman, you know, I don't think you're lying about me right now. That's really I'll just ask you. I'll just ask it straight up. What's the you think if a human being not even a Christian, any human being who's anywhere at any time on planet earth who doesn't believe that a biological woman can be a biological man, but that person wants to be referred to as a biological man talking about gender roles. Stop talking and listen. You said biological man and those are two different. They're two different. No, you need to be more particular with your fucking language. You ask. Do not be more precise. There's no possible way you said woman. You said woman that you agreed at the beginning of this conversation that it's not a direct biological commentary. You are absolutely admitting to yourself that how you are being so imprecise with their language where you at in your own language said that woman and man is a gender thing which is not at all related to biology and you yourself admitted that is what you thought. So I'm just asking you to be consistent. So I'm trying to. Oh, okay. I'm trying to be as crystal clear as I can possibly be. Any human being who's ever existed on the face of planet Earth. If you're going to do a biological female or male. We just say that we're going to let Andrew respond. Who exists on planet Earth right now? Anywhere who believes that they're telling you a lie by saying X. Lie. Would that cause them harm then if lying was against their faith to have to call you X. Whatever it is. You're just asking some dumbass questions. You will not answer any of mine. So I'm going to be honest. I'm not going to engage in. All right. Well, then what we'll do is we have a lot of other. Well, we only got a few more super chests to go, but yeah, if we're at the end of the the point where we're not going to be able to engage with each other, then we will kind of keep this to a one-sided type thing as we answer the rest of these questions. I don't mind. I do have to get going soon-ish. I can probably say for another 10, 15 minutes. All right. Then let me set the timer and what we'll do is we'll keep these questions for the side that they're on. Just give me one second. I hope that everybody's having a good time. Everybody's had, I think, a good chance to speak and say their piece. You know, we've got a lot of liveliness going on here with the speakers tonight and I think it's been a lot of fun. So hit the like button if you haven't already and let's get into these super chats and I'll put the one minute on the clock. 60-second skeptic says, as for someone who tends to like freedom rather than less freedom, how would you sell me on these fashion laws one minute on the clock, Andrew and Rachel? None of you actually like freedom. You're all fucking liars. The truth is is that anytime we bring up anything like gun control, we bring up anything which is freedom related, you instantly want to curtail it and make sure that there is less freedom. The only thing you ever want more freedom for is for degenerate acts, always. Can you demonstrate when I've done that? More freedom for abortions. I will. More freedom for abortions. More freedom for days. More freedom for just it's always more freedom for degeneracy. Show me a progressive policy that wants more freedom for more duties. When do these people ever want more freedom so that they have more restrictions on duties that they have to give out to other people? Never. They just want endless freedom for fucking degenerate acts and they never want anything else. Five seconds. It's always more freedom, more degeneracy every single time. All right. Me next. If you had anything to add on to it, I'll give you another 30 seconds. Andrew is absolutely right. The people on the left who say they are pro-freedom were not pro-freedom when it came to masks, when it comes to smoking, when it came to me too and men being presumed innocent until proven guilty. You are not pro-freedom unless it comes to vice, like Andrew said. He says degeneracy. I'll even go further and say vice. You want freedom to do self-destructive things, to do things that are destructive to society. You don't want freedom to perform virtues. That's time there. All right. I'll just warn you. I'm going to give you a one minute per side there. I let Andrew pretty much take up all the time. I should let you know just so we can get everybody out here at a good time, everybody and somewhat in what we agreed to prior to the discussion. But once again, these things get juicy and I kind of let you guys dig your own hole as far as the conversation goes. I try to keep it as open as we can, but also making sure you can hear everybody. So let's continue on. Ozian talks, another one for Andrew and Rachel. Decency doesn't map to reality either. I reject. Why wouldn't it map to reality? Right? Behavioral standards always map to reality and we can always actually see the consequences of behavioral standards. Here's the behavioral standards we have right now. Right now we have an under the threshold birth rate where we can't even repopulate our own nation and neither can almost any other western nation, in fact none of them, not one western nation can repopulate itself due to your fucking standards. Right? We have millions of babies who are fucking killed every single year. You guys don't give a shit about that. All you want is endless freedom for degenerate acts. You never want freedom for anything other than that. You only want it for that. Why don't you just admit it? You just want freedom for debauchery and nothing else. 20 seconds, Rachel. Yeah, I would absolutely echo what Andrew said. There are conflicts going on right now in certain parts of the world. I don't need to say what it is because it's YouTube, but everybody is horribly offended and upset if babies or women are the victims of these horrendous acts, but yet we're gonna sit here and pretend like gender doesn't matter, like children don't matter. That's obviously bullshit. All right, moving on. Gregory P. Our speaker is not here for that question right now, so we'll come back to it as Nina makes her way back. Meng Fan Dan, this debate is about transphobia. Andrew and Rachel deny transgenders as category errors. How is that not transphobic? One minute on the clock and we'll see if we can get a start from you this time, Rachel. Well, how could it be? How could it be transphobic? If it's a category error, then it can't even enter into the category. And by the way, both of our opponents actually agreed with us that it's not even transphobic to say to one of these people that they're not men. They can't even agree that that's true with each other. It's insane. We made a critical error in society when we decided that preferences or urges are the same as identity. So your preference or urge to have sex with a certain person or dress a certain way or do a certain thing, that's not your identity. That's not who you are. That's the category error. Okay, so I think a trans person is not their desires or their urges. Okay, so I think that these two are just just straight up lying because I open this saying that like I'm disappointed, honestly. You guys are just straight up lying. I open this saying that Nina and I don't agree on this that specifically when somebody says biologically that somebody is not a biological woman or a biological man, that I have no problem with that. I don't think that's transphobic. When it's like denying their identity, it can be. Yeah, absolutely. That's not their identity. It's doing it just to be, okay, there are plenty of men who harp on and on about what it is to be a man, a true man. That is their identity. If it is an identity for them, I don't see how it can be an identity for somebody else. No, they don't. They harp on about masculine traits that make you into the type of man that has virtues that people like. They're not saying that you're not a man or you're not the biological category of a man by not having those traits. They're simply giving you a prescription of what makes you the best virtuous version. That's not true. There are plenty of men who talk about what it is to be a real man, right? You can be a man and then there's being a real man. That's just a common turn of phrase. That's a colloquialism. Yeah, it's a common turn of phrase. That doesn't mean that what they're saying is you're only real if blank. They're not saying you're not a biological male. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. They're saying you can be a biological man, but are you as a man being a true man, being a man with certain referring to the masculine virtues? The masculine virtues. Yes, and if that can be an identity for somebody, I don't see why a gender identity tied to social roles can't be an identity for somebody else. All right, 30 seconds Rachel. I'm not moving on. Oh, I thought Rachel had the last point. To you it's not. 30 seconds. No, no, even on the masculine virtues, the identity of you is not the masculine virtues. You're still male. You're still male, regardless of that. People are still male, yes. Yes, and so you are conceding then that to for somebody has those virtues. For me to say that you're not a man, you're a woman, is not transphobic, which is the heart of the debate. No, it's not. I have said from the beginning, if it is, if you're talking in a biological sense, that I don't think it's transphobic. And if I say that to a trans person, you're never going to be a man, I am not saying anything transphobic to them. Right. If you're saying to them you will never be a biological male, they will probably agree with you. No, I just say man. All right, we're going to move on to the next one here, guys. This one's for Nina. I think that, so yeah, we're going to move on to the next super chat. Gregory P says, Nina, should you be allowed to be nude in public? And I think you can take that as a more broad because Gregory, that's a little bit weird to ask directly. So should people be allowed to be nude in public? You're on mute right now. Sorry, Nina. That was from earlier. That's a little bit of a you problem. I'm just kidding. I'm just joking. But like, that's a little weird to ask me that specifically. Like, why should it? Any of us being nude in public? I'm not like a huge advocate for being naked in public personally. Like, I have not really thought, I just haven't really thought about it a lot. I could be mean. You should think about it because who are you to tell people they can't be nude if that's who they feel like they are. I'm going to say that. If that's who they feel like they are. Just to be fair, I didn't know nude was an identity, guys. It's nude and identity. Why can't it be? Who you, well, apparently who you stick with penis is an identity considering that homosexuality. We're all jumping into I'm going to do what I did before. They asked me specifically. You asked they asked me specifically if I should be nude in public. I don't have any desire to do it. I don't think that I necessarily have any inclination to do it if there is a some sort of like, I don't know, theoretical or like a like a like a theatrical thing. I don't know whatever. It's not it's like a definitely case of a case based on my point. I don't think that public nudity in general is like horrible. I think like we are people. We look at what we do. It's not like a very complicated thing when it comes to like what should be allowed. I think that I could be moved on my positions. I don't know. Should people be allowed to be nude in public is what he's asking. They got 20 seconds. Not specifically said me. Yeah, but I'll ask you. Should people be allowed to be nude in public? I don't care what you're asking me. Oh, okay. Fair enough. I mean, I wouldn't answer my questions either. Well, you heard it here first. Andrew wouldn't answer this question. Why do you admit to that? Yeah, why would you why do that? I mean, that would just be a debate. That was pretty funny and pretty good, I think, to end that one there with that. Will we call that a dad joke? I'm not sure, but let's carry on. Manga fan Dan, this debate is about oh, we already read that one, but thanks Manga fan Dan. I'll give you a little extra flair on your name. Chris Oh, facts don't care about Chud's logic crippling depression. But do you, Andrew, please tell him to leave his goon cave and stream more? Um, oh, he's talking to you. He's telling you to leave your goon cave. I think the guitar is cool. I think if you got a K a man like that's your cave over there and you got like a like a I can't understand how you read the super I don't understand what he's asking. It's a little so there's a little bit there's there's no punctuation here guys have much so good no there's a little bit so facts don't care about Chud logic's crippling depression. But do you, Andrew, please tell him Chud logic. Yeah. So he's saying Chud logic needs to stream more. I think that's kind of what I was getting. Oh, Chud logic is another YouTuber, are they? They want you to encourage. Yes, yes. Chud logic is another content creator. Oh, okay. See, I thought they were. Yeah. What happens, what happens with all what happens with all left wing content creators is they always have mental breakdowns because they're fucking lunatics. So apparently this chatter saying that maybe Chud logic's having some kind of mental breakdown or had one. I don't know if that's true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me because all left wing content creators at some point have some kind of mental fucking break always. Yeah, I haven't had one and I think somebody told me the other day that I'm, well, not the other day, like somebody told me that I'm too mentally stable to be a streamer and a successful streamer. So what I've been doing recently is like faking mental breakdowns on stream. It's pretty fun. I saw the banana thing. Yeah. Well, let's carry on from there, everybody. They keep the super chats coming in because we are almost to the close here. So that was interesting. But what is the name on that head stock there, Andrew? It's killing me on the guitar. It's bugging me a whole bunch. JC. Okay. I just had to ask. All right. Bite me, XD. Thank you, Andrew and Rachel, for standing by sanity and standing up to the left for completely destroying what it means to be a decent American. All right. Welcome. We'll let the whole panel respond to that for a minute. Yeah. So this, well, this happens. And it happens often. What happens is people on our side are always terrified of saying these kind of realistic truisms because they feel like they're going to get micro assassinated with kind of not just the character dispersions of, you're a fascist, but then notice that when you levy the same criticism back for the limiting of freedoms, they want to do the same exact thing. It's always an equal playing field. You don't have to be afraid. You don't. OK, Nina, I've explained to you it's a debate handle. A debate. If my debate... It was a joke. Nina, if my debate handle was Superman, could I fly? But what if you then... If my debate handle was Superman, could I fly? If my debate... Wait, wait, wait, hold on. You're going to back up on this? I've heard you literally like be like, yeah, it was a joke, but I do stand by what you were saying. What? You've heard me say, yeah. You think Andrew's an actual fascist? You think Andrew actually advocates for fascism? He wants to do... And we're certainly now if they're walking down the street. That is the most... Aren't you the... Aren't... Was it your side? Wait a minute. Wasn't your side the one that didn't want to let people... I don't give a shit about what you think my debate is. I'm saying... You know, so this is for them. So this is... We're going to let Rachel... All that matters. All that... So again, so all that matters ever is the accusations we throw at the other side. It doesn't matter what we're guilty of. Right. All that matters is that they're guilty. Doesn't matter that we want to do the exact same fucking thing. We just only want to do it under our secular degenerate framework. But we want to do the same thing. It's ridiculous. Yeah, I just... Has as much authority to wield power as the left does. And we always have had a claim to it. We just let the secularists do it because they go, But you're a fascist though even though they want to do the same shit just under their framework. All right. Over to you, Rachel. They're aggressive. Okay, so... Progressives on the left. Do you deny your remarky? What about... The question was for them to their side and I did pass to Rachel. So we're gonna let Rachel speak, guys. Yeah, just real quick. Again, I want to say the left wing was generally the ones that didn't want to let people go to work or go to school if they didn't allow certain things to be injected into them. You didn't want people to be able to enter certain spaces unless they were wearing some shit on their face. You guys have all kinds of rules about what you're allowed to say or not say. You guys are not pro- freedom whatsoever. You are only pro-degeneracy. So you're perfectly willing to limit anything we want to do as Christians or conservatives or family-oriented people. What does that do with being Christian or conservative? But you want everyone to have butt sex and you want everybody to do porn. Yes, I do. I don't want everybody to have butt sex and do porn. What are you talking about? Yes, they should be able to. Once again, you guys are fucking lying about me, which I thought you guys were fucking Christians. So good one there, guys. You don't make this appointed. You don't think people should be allowed to have butt sex? It's true. They should be allowed to. They shouldn't be a quack or two. And apparently wouldn't I probably personally wouldn't recommend it. Is it part of your Muslim faith that people be allowed to have butt sex? No, no, no. That would be the most opposite thing of Muslim faith. Are you ridiculous? Don't, well, don't say you're not a great Christian because you're lying. Is it part of your Muslim faith? Don't fucking lie about me and complain about lying about other things. Don't fucking complain about lying about me and then complain about. Do not fucking complain. Do not lie about me and then complain about lying about other things. That is some fucking bullshit and you fucking know it. We are going to. I will not stand for it. I'm sorry to move on from there. We're going to. Don't fucking lie about her, dude. What the fuck? Just that we do need to move on. And you go, girl. Is it against your Muslim faith? Are people to have butt sex? Can you imagine when he's lying about her? That's super fucked up. She doesn't believe in God. So. Yes, I don't believe I'm culturally Muslim. Like everybody. The fuck is that mean? So you're lying about being a Muslim? Yeah, you know what? No, I've said that. I've said that I'm an atheist. I've said that I'm an atheist and I'm culturally Muslim. OK, so. Yeah, so let's not. Let's not. Yeah, let's try not to pull. I don't make lies about you guys. I don't call you fascists. Yeah, let's. Yeah, let's try not to throw any more labels around. We're going to be. Yeah, don't. Don't say that about me, though. Like you guys know me. I have never lied about you. I have never said that you're racist. I've never said that you're fascist. I have you promoted from the racist allegations. Are you promoting? Why should you promote the generosity? Why? Why? It's not a lie. Why? Why should I ever defend you in the future? Who cares if you defend us? Why would we care if you defend us? The thing is that I thought we had an established relationship where I don't fucking lie about you. I'm not lying to tell you that you're a leftist degenerate who pushes degeneracy. You are. Is that not true? Do I do? Do you think I pushed degeneracy the same way that every other person does? Well, listen, that's a misnomer. You still do push it. All right. Let's get back on topic, guys, because, you know, you guys can take this behind the scenes. That's great, you know, but I did want to let a little bit of the unfolding there go because there's some accusations getting thrown around. But let's get to the last two superjets here. Sagoma, it's kind of a... It's a bit of a... I don't know if you want to call an ad home, but they're making an accusation that Andrew, it's very obvious you don't actually care about what you're saying. If you actually cared about lying, you wouldn't have a career. So I think they're accusing you of being a devil's advocate, not believing what you're saying. So, Andrew, I'll give you a minute without interruption if we can get through this one. Why wouldn't I have a career? They're asking you if you're legit. They think that you might be just saying things. Who cares what leftists say? Mike, progressives always accuse... I know that personal leftists. All right, we're giving one minute to Andrew, please. Progressives always accuse you of that which they're guilty of. There's absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind, including the good faith leftists of which there's only a handful left anywhere on the Internet, that I am adamant in the belief of what I say. And I always have been adamant in the belief of what I say. I do believe, for instance, Stardust is a decent person, but she does advocate degeneracy. Nobody's mischaracterizing that. It's just true. Same thing with Nina, right? Complete degenerate advocates. They do want to push personal freedom, but they never want to do it for responsibility, duty, or virtue, but always for degeneracy because that is the progressive leftist ethos always. It always is to pretend that I'm in some way misrepresenting myself when I've stood by these convictions ever since I was started politically provoked is a complete fucking lie. I am somebody who believes in individual liberty. If you think that I'm somebody that pushes degeneracy, I again will say that in most cases I dress more conservatively than most conservative female streamers. I in general will say that I advocate against degeneracy most of the time. I agree with you guys on things like nudity in public, just because I think that people within the confines of their own home should be able to do what they want as long as they're not hurting other people doesn't mean that I'm pushing degeneracy. It means I'm pushing individual liberty as my main focus. Yeah, but don't you understand the argument here is that your advocacy of personal liberty is always for the promotion of degeneracy. Where are you promoting virtues as part of personal freedom? The responsibility is part of the personal freedom instead of just the do-is-thou-wilt portion of the personal freedom. That's what no leftist ever does. Yeah, what would that look like to you? Pushing for responsibility. Well, so the first thing that you should adhere to is understanding there's no moral grounding that you can come up with absent the virtue of religion anyway. So religious virtues are something you're going to have to push for morality no matter what. You don't have a choice. Inside of this for societal stability you cannot have endless degeneracy. It's destroyed the West. Always the doctrine of personal freedom always is more degeneracy and vice. It's never a personal freedom which is extended to you for duty, responsibility, or virtue ever started. I don't think I would ever disagree that a lot of the moral framework that a lot of people follow is based on religion, right? Like that 100%. But there are times just because people who follow Islam 2,000 years ago believed a certain doctrine, a certain amount, a certain list of things was wrong. It's not even 2,000 years old, but it's not. Well, whatever. Okay, so just because somebody has... Five seconds we've got to move on from here. Okay, just because they have been following a list of things that they deem is right doesn't mean just for all that time because they followed that. That means that I think every single one of those things on that list is right. I am allowed as a person to choose and see and reason through that list of things to see whether I think those things actually apply. What personal freedoms do you advocate for that aren't vice? I don't think that somebody dressing the way that they want to as long as they are being modest with it is a vice, really. You don't think that dressing in skimpy outfits and things like this that leads to hedonism? I mean, if I can see somebody's I can see somebody's penis print through their clothes. I'm going to be really uncomfortable. Like, yeah. But you still want their personal freedom to do it, right? No, I probably don't like it. I probably wouldn't want to see it. I mean, there was a whole controversy that happened involving me because I saw somebody's penis print through their clothes. So then the question still stands. What personal freedoms are you advocating for and pushing for that you think people ought to have that really aren't just a promotion of degeneracy and violence? Yeah, so again, the advocacy for somebody to be able to dress the way they want without being explicit is doesn't seem like a vice. That's limiting freedom. Yeah. I mean, there has to be moderation in everything, right? Right, so that's limiting freedom. What are the things you're advocating for that are freedom-based principles that aren't an advocation for vice or degeneracy? What? I think that is. It's more freedom than what you guys are pushing. That's limiting freedom. It's limiting in some ways, but it's more than what you guys are pushing. So what are the things that you're maximally pushing for individualistic freedom? I don't know that I'm I don't think I'm maximally pushing for anything. So so you're not pushing for individual freedoms? It seems unfair. This is unfair. This is this is absolutely nothing to do with what she's out. I don't know why we're letting this happen. Like this is. Yeah, shut up, Nina. Well, it's lost this year. What do you mean? Yeah, the shut up, Nina. I'm saying that. Stardust was answering. Yeah, but I think that you're being unfair to her. I don't remember what that was. Enough for herself. Go ahead, Stardust. Yeah, I don't remember what the question was. I was asking you. That's what I'm saying. What are the no, the one that the person that donated. What are the doctrines of freedom that are trying to. It's not about you. It's about the person who donated that money to get like through it. I think there is. She asked me a questioning. I think there needs to be moderation and everything, Andrew. That's limiting. That's obviously. That's limiting. Yeah, of course it is. Of course, but individual freedom in there is going to be limiting everything. So what are the progressives pushing for then? What are progressives pushing for then? That is a maximum of freedom. That isn't really just feist and degeneracy. What? Can you name anything? I mean, look, I don't agree with progressives who think that anybody can state what they want to be and then they're just that. Make it for all. Well, what you have is a more conservative doctrine of limiting freedom than Stardust. I don't think I would disagree with you guys. I tend to have a more. Like I am a liberal. I am progressive, but I have limits. So yeah, but don't you understand from our perspective? You don't think having the freedom to have healthcare. All progressives just want to push. You don't need the freedom of having healthcare is not. I don't disagree with you guys that that's it from your perspective. All progressives are pushing degeneracy. From your perspective, that's true. I just don't appreciate having that put on to my person specifically because we've had extensive conversations, I feel. And I feel like I've spoken for myself plenty. If your doctrine is to limit freedom, then I retract my statement because that's used to be your doctrine. It's still more freedom than what you would wish for. Yeah, but it's still limiting freedom. So all of our all of our argument really is just how much should your freedom be limited in order to have a stable society? Sure, absolutely. And that at least would be a good faith conversation. But instead of instead, we get this bullshit. Okay, that's fine. Which is we're Americans. This is about freedom. Bullshit. Don't lie to us. Well, I will say is that there is going to be there are going to be things that you value more or less in every in every thing that you do. Right. So like for me, I am being truthful when I say I do value individual liberty to an extent. Right. With the the extent being explicit, you know, being infringing upon other people's personal freedoms infringing upon their safety. Right. Those are things that yeah, Pete on anybody's freedom. I'm owning a nuke. I don't think I even I don't think I even I think my main concern with owning a nuke is that it has the potential right. But yeah, it's just it's just when potential it's when the potentiality for something becomes such that it could cause a dire threat that you limit freedom. And this is how law has to work. And this is why the What's your position? Without law, there's no freedom. Wait, so what is your position? So you think that people shouldn't have nukes? Of course, I don't think individuals should have nuclear bombs. That would be an absurd position. Yeah, it would be. It would be an absurd position. But the demonstration of it, I don't think prisoners should have guns either. Right. So you can't say your pro-second amendment 100% or else prisoners could have guns. There has to be a limit. Yeah, there's always a limit for societal stability. And all we're really discussing then is the limitations. What's your main point? My point is, is that if you're going to call me a fascist for wanting to limit my freedom, you have to call yourself a fascist for the same thing because that's what you want to do. All right. Okay, so you don't you're you're okay with you being a fascist as long as I'm a fascist. No, I think that you're a category error of calling everybody a fascist for the freedom. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I have a test. I have a test for this. Nina, do you think do you think that millionaires should have to pay a lot of taxes? You are being like a child. What do you mean, a lot? What do you mean? Okay, what how much in percentage of income if I make $150 million a year, what percentage of taxes roughly should I pay? Okay, well, I'm going to say I have an idea of a relative tax bracket where like you can make up to like, I don't know, like $200 million. Right. You get taxed maybe like 50% on that. But you're making like $200 million. Like this is not like a okay. So you do have limits. That's fascism. You're a fascist. No, no, no, no. You want to take people's money. You want to take people's money away. You dirty fascist. I'm second region. You fascist. How do you like it? Oh, I thought you were being good. I'm sorry. I thought you were being good faith of this. That is actually good faith. She's trying to show you something. All right. Yes, I'm sorry. You're really trying to show you something. I don't even know who that you're referring to. You're like saying, if you want to take people's money. Okay. So you don't actually want my answer. You just want me on me. We're moving on. No. I'm just telling you that everybody has limitations. No, I'm just going to call us fascists. You cut us my answer before. Can you please just meet her? Like, god damn it. Like, I will get through my fucking sentence and then we'll move on. I have barely taught. Okay, let me say. I talk over every single. I can just leave that. Like, if that's like your issue, like, that's fine. I'm trying to answer your question. I'm trying to good faith answer your question. And you won't let me do it. I don't know why you're not letting me do it that. Because I'm just making the point that for us to have limitations. Wait, no, that's not an answer. All right. Let's let her clarify their name before you answer that. Before you re-answer that. Oh my god. She's, okay. So I'm saying over like $250 million. Do you think that it would not make sense of tax? Everything else you have above that. Only if you hit $250 million, we'll say in direct income or or, you know, obviously, we would generally involve like doesn't matter, right? I'm trying to know. You have to let her answer your question. What are your opinion on capital gains? 15 seconds. What are your opinion on capital gains? You think it should be taxed? All right. Oh, I think I don't know if she's right. I have to get going. She's on mute right now. But yeah, if you want to come off the artist, it was nice debating with you again. It was nice debating with you guys too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I would like to do. I would like to do more. So please consider me. I probably won't be at the in-person debate thing. I was last year, but not this year. But my night. You guys have fun. Well, you guys are going to be in Texas. It's in November, right? Yeah. November 4th. OK. Yeah. Probably it's going to be hard for me to do, but I'll take a look. So yeah. Have a good one, guys. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, thank you. Thanks for coming out, Stardust. And yeah, let's just switch over to the screen right quick. And yeah. Sorry for muting there, you there, Rachel, just because we've only got a couple more questions here to go. And I did want to try to wrap it up. It's fine. I'm barely talking. No, I think I think we had our muted on a wrong thing. But can I ask her the question I was wanting to ask her? I literally don't even care at this point. If you didn't understand the point I was making that do you think that you think it's fine for you to have limitations on freedom, but it's not fine for us. We have limitations that we're bashed on. Screw you. Screw you. You think capital gains should be taxed? All right. We will ask the questions from the super chats. Yes, we think capital gains should be taxed. This question is obviously not working out for us. So, Matt Dillamunkey. To the sum of zero percent. Matt Dillamunkey spent $4.99 and he made a penis joke. I mean, I guess I could read it. If Matt, if Dillamunkey identifies as black and white and wife doesn't affirm 12 inch piece, is she racist and outright lose social credit? Well, that's that's real good. Thanks for that. That's informative. We appreciate that. We have one last super chat. So, I just want to say a quick thank you to everybody that came out to the debate tonight. John Phantom, Sam and Pat. I see iron horses hanging out there. Who else is hanging out? Simon Allen. I see you guys hanging out a lot in the debates and keeping our live chat going. Even Zen Shapiro. You know, I you can't hurt me. Let's continue on. Zen Shapiro is the greatest moderator of all time, just saying. The greatest moderator of all time. That's objectively the greatest moderator ever. Nobody's better. Not even me. Sagoma for five dollars. It's suddenly if suddenly wearing a dress was considered masculine, would you be OK with a man wearing one then? It wouldn't be. Yeah, it's true. If a unicorn was suddenly a leprechaun, would you call it again a category error? I don't understand why people don't understand. But let us assume for a second that there was some type of dress was considered masculine, which was within the confines of the decency law. Sure, we could concede to the hypothetical, but it doesn't actually mean anything. It still goes to our point, which is that you would still be having decency laws based around the cultural apprehension of what is OK and good for the public, which is non-subversive. Yeah. Alrighty. Well, yeah, did you guys want to take a minute to give some closing thoughts each before we wrap this up? All right, I see another there from Rachel. So let's start with you, Andrew, for your closing thoughts. Yeah, so my name is Andrew Wilson. I am the host of the one and only crucible, fastest growing debate channel online to my knowledge. To my knowledge, I appreciate everybody coming out for tonight's debate. Recognized that I hold no ill feelings towards either Nina or Stardust. My job is to represent the right wing the finest way possible. And that's what I'm here to do. These are blood sport debates. As much shit as I give Nina, one thing I'll say about her is she does like to roll around throw punches, which is fucking awesome. It's one of the one of the things I've always respected about her is that she's willing to have a nice slug fest. And I'm fine either way. If you want to do high tier or you want to get down on the muck, I'm happy to do both. Our opponents arguments were garbage. They couldn't refute any of the things that we said. And we actually won the debate at the outset when they essentially conceded that it's not transphobic to say that a trans man is, you know, a woman or vice versa or that a trans woman is a man, you know, whatever it is, whatever configuration you come up with. It's not actually transphobic to say these things because they make an imprintation on biological reality just like we do. So the only difference here is how we categorize these things. They make a category error. We do not make the same category error. So we want it in the outset, but on many of these micro topics, I understand it's always an uphill battle for a conservative to say things like, I want decency laws, things like this, right? But we're willing to have those fights because we feel like we can make the proper arguments for those as well. Well, thank you so much for coming out for the debate, Andrew. It's been lively. I think we've got you linked in the description already, but if not, you heard from Andrew himself to go check out the channel there. Yeah, let's hand it over to Rachel for up to one minute there. Sure. So I will tell you that I, as a mom of five, I worked part-time early on doing makeup, right? I did wedding makeup and worked for some of the cosmetics companies. And I quit five, six years ago when they told me that I had to put makeup on little boys. I had mothers bring in 10-year-old boys and say, for his birthday, I want you to teach him how to do sexy pouty lips and put false eyelashes on. And I was not allowed to decline this. So I quit. This is a very personal thing for me. I am a woman myself. I do not look at biological men, and I will never accept them as women. And our opponents here literally argued for freedom while at the same time you know that they would argue for things like lockdowns, masks, involuntary biological things being injected into your arm in order for you to go out and public and do whatever you want. So they're full of shit. They're lying. And they don't believe what they say yet. They're allowed to call us fascists because we advocate for some limitations on degeneracy. So basically this was just a really big long slug fest about who is pro-freedom and it would definitely not be our opponents. All right. Well, that is the closing side there from from the is saying trans men aren't men transphobic and no side. So we will get Nina. I'll give you up to a minute and a half here since you need to kind of represent yourself and maybe a little bit extra. So up to a minute and a half for your closing statement. I feel like usually I'm not a long winded person, but I feel like I'm going to need more. So definitely cut me off when I need to. But the fact that you are concerned to the level that you will not put makeup on a boy and then you're going to lose. I'm not. It's our closing statement to be fair. I'm not wanting to have you have interest on this. I'm saying what you are. You are insecure, fucking like ridiculous and like the most like crazy shit. Like you're going to lose. Take a step back. You're going to lose your job because you won't make a bun a boy. You're goddamn right. You're still not. Okay. I was going to say, I mean, if you're going to call her out directly, I'm going to ask Nina, if you can for the rest of your 40 seconds to make it about the debate topic and not about what you just heard from Rachel. I'm addressing what she said. She's using her exact thing. I understand that, but let's talk about the debate topic. That's fine, that's fine. It is saying trans men aren't men transphobic. I think that you're weak with your positions and then we'll move on from them because I don't think that you have any like actual idea what I'll do. But anyways, I think that the idea that you're upset about trans people is the exact same aspect as your positions when it comes to oh, I'm going to get freaked out because I have to like what make up on like a boy? Like who gives a shit? Like people like to wear makeup it's fun and stuff. Like I say, yeah, it's fun. It's fun for kids to wear makeup. I don't think that's an issue at all. And I think that the idea that you think it is is really crazy to me. And it really says more about yourself than it has anyone else that would ever have with like any sort of trans ideology. This is like obviously you just have an issue with non-gender conforming things because you were probably like completely fucked with the amount of influence you had. Amount of influence you had. All right, so we are going to close it off there. Everybody, you know, I think these guys aren't probably going to be done with their thoughts for one another here. It seems like I said earlier Rachel shaken her head. So I think there's going to be some more thoughts going forward. So all of our debaters are going to be linked in the description. Yeah, I see there is some life. James going to have my head for this. I think I was fair. And also James is not into that. Just saying. No, anyways, jokes aside. I think I was fair. Here's a bench press, dude. Tried to give everybody a fair shot. I would say, you know, and keep it relevant as much as we could. So if you enjoyed the debate, share it out in those contentious spaces. You like having these discussions. We're going to be at DebateCon. So check out the link in the description. We have all of the links to that and our crowd funds. So if you want to get a signed picture of your favorite debater, if Andrew is your favorite debater or he's debating with Matt and you want to get a signed picture of them, that's a good way to get it. So we're going to be back with more juicy debates going forward and we hope to see you all there. In the meantime, keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and cheers everyone tonight. Hey everybody, thanks for coming out for the debate. Hopefully everybody enjoyed that very lively discussion. I think it was pretty interesting as far as some of the other ones that we've had on here. We always have a lot of fun. So if you haven't already, hit the like button. But majoritively, I want to let you all know and just remind you one last time that we are doing a live event in Dallas, Texas. So if you're going to be in the area, if you can make it to the area, you want to see the debaters and watch them go at it in person, then definitely check out the tickets in the description below. Yeah, I see you guys hanging out there in a live description. Simon Pat, the music is sobering. Yeah, I still got to get some real drums on there. It's a little lackluster for me. And I did that vocal take in one shot and I really need to go back and do a little bit more. But anyways, beyond all that, yeah, I see you hanging out still there iron horse. I thought you said you were you were quietly hanging out in your corner there. But either way, appreciate you hanging out buddy. Yeah, so hopefully, if you guys can't make it out to the show, I'm going to once again, shameless plug it. You know, we have our crowd fund in the description. So if you haven't seen it, go check it out. Check out the perks. See what you can get out of that. If not, then, you know, maybe just wait till we're hosting a debate that you really like and ask that really juicy question. Because any way that you can help us out right now to help cover the cost for the venue, the cost for the speakers that are coming out tickets. I think that you know, if you get that in, there's a super chat in a way of supporting. That's great too. So all of that's fantastic. You know, we love you all you guys hanging out in the chat there. I think that there, if I'm not mistaken, there's an after show and a theme is got one going on in the Discord. So if you want to put that in the live chat, I was just scrolling up to see if I could find that. But no, it doesn't look like I can. But anyways, no, an octave lower on the vocals. Oh yeah, no, I've gotten much higher pitch. I've been doing a lot more Judas Priest there, Kilo Alpha Tango. So yeah, if you're in the area in Dallas and who knows, from what I know, we're going out and having some fun after the debates and might find some karaoke and then you can tell me how awful I am at singing. Anyways, yeah, just seeing who else is all hanging out. I killed Earl. Yeah, you know, it could be better. I accept the criticism. I take it with a grain of salt. But yes, we will be back for more juicy debates. So cheers everybody. Have a good night. And yeah, have fun.