 but another possibility which is a very real possibility is that Israel feels totally immune and has total impunity against any retaliation by the world, whatever it does. Hello and welcome to NewsClick and People's Dispatch. Today we're very honored to be joined by Raja Shahadeh who's an award-winning writer. He's written a lot of novels as well as essays but also importantly one of the key founder members of Al Haq, a civil rights organization, Al Haq is one of the most reputed civil rights organizations in the region but also was in the news recently. When along with five other NGOs it was declared a terrorist organization by Israel's defense minister Benny Gantz. Now this is prompted international condemnation of course but at the same time is part of a campaign Israel has been continuing for a long time. Thank you so much for joining us. So first of all I wanted to ask you about the context in which this declaration has been made. We know that of course many many organizations in the recent past have been targeted in various ways, Palestinian organizations, Palestinian activists have been they've been crackdowns, many have been detained, put in administrative detention for example but this declaration of six organizations some of which are very prominent many of which have a record long record of working not only in the country but with international groups as well that was seen as a surprise by many people. So does this really mark an escalation as far as Israel's actions are concerned? Absolutely in in fact I have expected that Al Haq would be beset by all kinds of harassment but never expected that it will come to the point when it will be declared designated as a terrorist organization. This is extreme and unpredicted. Of course over the years the organization has had many difficulties. So for example when we started established it in 1979 Israel said that it was but covered up for the PLO, the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization was then a prescribed organization, a legal organization and then it said it was a cover for other organizations that were also prescribed and when we made our first book on exposing Israel's actions in the law in passing laws that are intended to increase the settlements and annex the lands and take over the land and so on they answered us with a book of their own. So the level of the communication then was much different and then in 2002 when Israel re-invaded the West Bank they trashed and attacked and destroyed so many NGOs and official offices in the Palestinian Authority but did not come at all to Al Haq and stayed away from our offices. So over the years although there was harassment, although there was arrests of the field workers and the president director who was then a field worker, Shaouen Jabarin was detained and tortured heavily over the years and yet still the organization was never closed and so this comes as a total surprise and a shock that it is declared a terrorist organization of all things. Right in this context I just wanted to ask you a bit more about this declaration by Benny Gatz itself. First of all, how does Israel even have the right to declare a Palestinian organization as a terrorist organization or as a front for terrorist activity? This is a very important question of course but the way it happened is this, it first was an order by the minister of defense of Israel under an Israeli law, the counter-terrorism law declaring the organization, the six organizations as terrorist organizations. Now this is the Israeli law and this would have made the organizations prescribed in Israel which then would mean that money would not be able to come through and they could arrest anybody in Israel and so on but it was not the case in the West Bank and when I was asked and interviewed about the matter and wrote about it I said maybe Israel would stop short of declaring it a prescribed organization in the West Bank but now on November 7th they did and they did this by using a British emergency regulation from the mandate period of 1947 and of course the British legacy in Palestine is terrible because they left us with all kinds of terrible laws which are continued to be used and according to this law there is a list of prescribed organizations and now Al Haq and five other organizations are on that list which means that anybody supporting the organization, working for the organization or having anything to do with the organization is a terrorist who can be detained and imprisoned and imprisoned for a lengthy period of time and that's how it happens. Now of course also and also agreement the responsibility for NGOs was given over to the Palestinian authority but Israel retained anything that it deems is a security matter and this deems is a security matter and so it can do this declaration and prevent the organization from continuing. In this context I also wanted to ask you about the work done by these organizations because most of them have been involved in chronicling human rights violations for instance even the issues faced by prisoners, issues faced by the agriculture in the region so why is it that you know Israeli specifically targeting these organizations at this point of time? This is a question why are they targeting them at this specific time? One possibility could be that they are successful that they have been able to bring about a change in the perception of the world about what is happening in the occupied territories. Another possibility is that Al Haq for example has been very active in supplying evidence to the international criminal court in the Hague about the Israeli war crimes and the investigation has begun by the court which Israel is very angry about and very worried about of course and so perhaps this is in retaliation for that action but another possibility which is a very real possibility is that Israel feels totally immune and has total impunity against any retaliation by the world whatever it does and so if it declares these organizations which are important and well known all over the world as terrorist organization it believes it can get away with it. Now that's because of their arrogance and their perception of power. Right you mentioned the impunity aspect which actually I think also you know undergirds many of Israel's actions in recent times on a variety of issues for instance even when it comes to the Oslo codes you're talking about the kind of statements Israeli leaders are making shows really how much they don't care about it at all but also in this context I wanted to ask you what has the response been from Israeli civil society and how does this also reflect does this reflect the fact that the polity is shifting much much more to the right as well? Well when the Beth Salem the Israeli human right organization was was called that its members were committing treason the Israeli public rallied behind them but then the Israeli public is when it comes to Palestinians see the Palestinians as anything but human beings really and so the possibility that Israeli public would rally behind the Haqq and the five organizations for against this designation as terrorists is unlikely however there have been many individual and organizations in Israel who have said that this is unacceptable and one of the major papers hired said it's staying on Israel's reputation to do this action but then these are the minorities and the majority of the Israelis are viewing the Palestinians in very terrible ways because of the education system. The education system in Israel has imbibed into Israeli consciousness all the bad things about Palestinians and they do not believe that the Palestinians are even possible possibly could do human rights they believe that the Palestinians are just pretending to do human rights in order to do other things which are illegal and which justify Israel's actions so it's a very bad situation I think that we are in now very bad situation in terms of the relations between the two people. Right and also there was a lot of for instance news items about how say some of Israeli allies were taken by surprise what the media kept saying but does this also indicate a failure on the part of the international community which although professing support for instance for the two state solution has been giving Israel more and more leeway to conduct many of its occupational policies it's cool policies so even the fact that many of the reactions have just been sort of symbolic does it also indicate the fact that the international community is just you know completely withdrawn from this cause. Well we have to wait and see about the reaction of the international community as far as this is concerned just yesterday the United Nations and the Association for International Development agencies has made a declaration that they have not received any convincing evidence and that in fact they will continue to deal with these organizations so it is to be seen yet how these organizations are going to behave but it's unlikely that the European organizations which have been funding El Haq would withdraw their funding although some organizations such as one in Finland which is a missionary related to the church has decided to withdraw funding because they didn't want to jeopardize their work in other places in the area and so it depends from one organization to the other but if the organizations do not stand with El Haq it would be very bad and I think there was something that was said by the UN that counter terrorism legislation must be in accordance with obligations under international humanitarian law and international human rights law which include full respect for the rights to freedom of association and expression. This is the UN statement and that's a very important statement I think because Israel has used the counter terrorism legislation to do this and they are saying that it is not a correct usage of counter terrorism and that's very important I think. Right and finally just quickly wanted to ask you about the situation of the activists of some of these organizations on the ground and the kind of popular support they're receiving so could you maybe also talk a bit about how Palestinian organizations are maybe mobilizing in solidarity and what are the kind of actions that are being taken. You know Palestinian organizations and society are huge to harassment because it's been 50 years since the occupation began and 50 relentless years of total constant harassment and attempt to stop any action to end the occupation or to bolster the life of the Palestinian civil society so we're very used to it and the fact that such a declaration would mean that these organizations will be scared and closed and stop working is unlikely so there's no question that there will be opposition and there will be a challenge to this and the organization will continue to work and be supported by the society which realizes how important is the NGO sector in whether in the medical services or in social welfare or in human rights and so on. Absolutely thank you so much Rajasahad for speaking to us we'll come back to you of course for more such interviews and updates as well thank you so much. My pleasure. That's all we have time for today keep watching news click and people's dispatch.