 Good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone wherever you are in the world and welcome to today's IED debates event which is looking at what justice means for the energy transition and how we achieve it. So today's event is part of the IED debates series and we're really delighted to be hosting this in partnership with Access and Loughborough University. We've got a really fantastic session lined up and some really fantastic speakers. So before we kick off and meet them all, I'm going to run through some housekeeping. I am really delighted to hand over to Ben Garside, a principal researcher at IED. He leads our work on energy access and renewable energy and is going to be our moderator for today's event. So Ben, over to you please. Thanks very much Juliet. Good afternoon and good evening to those joining across Africa and Asia and good morning to you joining from Europe. And if you're joining from the Americas, a very good morning. I'm Ben Garside. I'm a principal researcher and lead the energy team at IED. Just to introduce our energy work a little bit, our framing for energy is that it is a key enabler for the types of marginalized communities IED works with, with potential to deliver impacts across sectors and transforming lives and livelihoods. But these impacts are often not realized just by providing the access to energy. Beyond the connection itself, there are compounding barriers which prevent access to and affordability of outcomes such as reliable equipment use, creation of new local businesses for improved income, value added for small farmers, and sustainability of services such as health and clean water that use energy. Energy services can also be part of strategies for building community resilience to climate change. But again, this is not automatic. So working with partners we develop and learn from scalable approaches that design and deliver holistic energy enable solutions, starting with an impact focus. The resulting solutions are tailored to local priority development needs, including those that I mentioned on livelihoods health and water, and the contextual factors that can really make or break uptake and sustainability of the solutions. As Juliet mentioned, this webinar is co-hosted with our partners, Loughborough University Centre for Sustainable Transitions, Energy, Environment and Resilience, or the STEA Centre, as well as the Alliance for CSOs for Clean Energy Access, known as Access. So on to the main subject of today, what does justice mean for energy transitions and how do we achieve it? Just energy transition partnerships or the jet peas are a high visibility, big budget instrument being discussed at the upcoming climate summit COP28. The first of these, the South Africa jet pea was launched at COP26 with the first phase promising eight and a half billion USDs to replace South Africa's age and coal powered electricity with renewables and supporting programs or justice for those negatively impacted in coal mining and coal power station jobs. South Africa came back in COP27 with a just energy transition investment plan, a JET IP, which came in significantly higher, 1.5 trillion rand or 82 and a half billion USD to be spent over the next five years alone. More jet peas have subsequently been announced, including 20 billion USD for Indonesia, 15.5 from Vietnam and 2.5 million, 2.5 billion for its Senegal, with other countries such as Nigeria and India also being discussed. So the aims of the workshop here and the webinar that we're having. First of all, we're going to be talking about scope. We have panelists coming from multiple countries and backgrounds I'll introduce in a minute. An increased understanding of what a just energy transition could really mean beyond reducing emissions and net zero targets. Using our country context examples and bringing in a range of perspectives will explore what scope the jet peas themselves could or should have. And more broadly, outside of the jet peas, what a just energy transition concept can usefully have for increasing the equity and justice, considering the energy sector itself and jobs in it, and more widely, how energy could be used as part of moving to low carbon energy use itself as part of moving to low carbon economies. So generally we'll look at implementation pathways. We have a little bit on the scope what people think that the definition should be the implementation pathways will look at how, how we do it increased awareness of the types of approaches to operationalize a just energy transition from the jet peas down to national level and community level process that can really fundamentally drive the social acceptance of the transition. And within the energy sector itself and beyond this. Last, they will look at the policy and finance. So the jet P big numbers have a big focus on commercial loans. That's potentially limiting what can be funded from a justice perspective at national level and the responses at the national level that are being developed. We're discussing what policy measures and the types of finance that are needed to maximize the impacts of a just energy transition. I add his own interest. This webinar is a deep dive into the energy, the deeper dive into the energy sector as part of a reflection on a broader conceptualization of justice in the transition towards a fairer low carbon society and we've run already a webinar that had a very strong gender focus in just transitions that I encourage you to look back on if you're interested. Today I would like to retain the focus on what marginalized groups, how which marginalized groups are impacted and how by an energy transition, and how can they be empowered to be part of a change agenda. Moving on to our speakers. First of all we have Tando Lukuko, who is a coordinator for the climate action network in South Africa. We have Dr molestia Chitra Ningrum, known to her colleagues and friends as Chitra. And she is the sustainable energy access program manager for the Institute for essential services reform in Indonesia. And she's a senior assistant research and data analyst at the, the Nigeria energy transition office of the sustainable energy for all initiative. Emmanuel is a sustainable energy and climate resilience expert, and the energy delivery models lead in Kenya. And lastly, we have some Kelly our cool. So, excuse me, our color, who is a finance specialist, also working at sustainable energy for all in Nigeria. So let me come on to our first question around scope. Tando the South African jet P is focused on justice for those working in the energy sector being displaced from coal jobs. Can you tell us a little bit more about what debate is happening in South Africa on this scope. Thanks, Ben. Good afternoon, good evening, and good morning to everyone on the call. I think for my own charity, I'd like to quickly just provide two definitions for is one for justice one for equity which helps me frame my intervention. Because we define it really I define it as giving people what's right for you there's, and we create equity simply as fairness, right. I'm just just to be on the same level for all of us now. The focus on the energy component, particularly, and the jobs component number one is critical because the biggest exposure at the moment in our country to climate impacts outside of communities and families from an industry perspective is the coal sector, right. We've got about 80% of our electricity comes from coal. The transition away from coal is going to most impact those individuals and our economy is largely driven by coal as well. So it's necessary first and foremost to understand that if we're going to be transitioning how do we ensure that the transition happens. But in so doing, and that we do not lose the gains that we have with the country we don't lose the advantages that we have a country and the economy. We've got economic sectors that bring in significant. I guess revenue for the state and so ensuring that we don't lose that is necessary for the country's well being and also for the citizenry. But the challenge with this jobs perspective is where then will those who have been displaced from coal jobs move to. And this is probably the single hardest question that we've had to answer because if anyone has been on the renewable energy plan for instance you'll know that the number of heads working in that particular facility compared to traditional power station is a fraction, right. I've been on one where we had the entire 14 staff running, I think 96 million facility, whereas the coal facilities using something like a thousand three hundred jobs to take just arbitrary number. So it's necessary then to figure out where those people going to go once we displaced them from the coal jobs. And the justice component then is to say, it wouldn't be fair to say, we've been working in this particular space for a long time and now that you're shifting there's no plan for you any longer. So they need to be some kind of conversation around where that plan is going to come from. And this is where the current debate is in South Africa is that, particularly on the jobs component. Where are the actual numbers coming from for the absorption of that label for us. This is looking at both then let's call it the new label for so young entrance into the market, but also then those who are too old to be able to shift away into new into new spaces. So what kind of plans exist. So the debates are, how can we ensure that the jobs for those who are fit to be able to take on these new renewable energy jobs for instance, that there's scaling that's there that there's support for them that's there and re scaling for those who then won't make it into this conversation, if you will. Now, there's also a question about just the allocation, and, and maybe this might be for for a later debate but that allocation of energy that is relative to how much electricity people are using at home, is it be how much is necessary for an equity from an equity perspective. And I was saying that the state is already providing 50 kilowatt hours of electricity for free right for free. That number is insufficient for any particular household to be able to survive. And the current argument is that that number needs to increase from 50 kilowatt hours to 350 kilowatt hours. This will provide for sufficient electricity for people to then power their homes, continue to make a living some kind of way they would be able to develop and self actualize at home. It might not be a great deal but it will provide that space. The debate is where that financing will come from and whether or not there's scope for that, particularly in the current policy framework. And there's a free basic alternative energy policy which exists that speaks to how this can be fed through renewable energy, particularly this additional component. And one last thing that I'd like to touch on, and that's a bit of a debate that kind of transcends this one on jobs alone and that is to say that the just transition also needs to look at just transitional spaces like agriculture just transition of space life food and so on, so that we get to better understand that when we're talking about a just transition we're talking about a change in the system itself. But now all these other systems also require any change but the challenge is, we don't get to have a full grasp of what exactly the end state will be of the energy transition specifically and it's the single most important one because it's the one that powers the economy. So, at the current moment is to say, yes, these conversations are necessary that these debates are necessary but we first have to get a firm grasp of what does it mean an energy spectrum and how it impacts the economy. Before then we open up the box to say, how does it then impact all these other spaces, even though we understand that nature of climate change and nature of just transition is a transversal one right it doesn't pick one and it doesn't follow a linear process. So, so the scope in South Africa has taken really those three dimensions. Should we increase it beyond just the jobs conversation should we increase it beyond just the energy conversation and should we increase it beyond just an access and an equity perspective just in terms of how much energy people get in this new distribution of the energy system. Thank you very much Tando very interesting. And Chitra, let me come to you and then the Indonesian government have been running consultations on what the jet piece should be looking like in Indonesia and the ISR been part of that. What what should be specifically included in the jet piece and what else is needed as part of a just energy transition. Alright, thanks Ben and also thank you Tando for providing a lot of context on how just the just principle manifest in this. So basically our government has just finished the comprehensive investment and policy plan for the JEPP. It has been released to the public and they hope to get inputs for it until November 14, which is early this week. And it has been quite a lot of chatter about how the plan should be manifested because first justice means inclusivity of course and the public consultation that has been held prior to the release of the plan is was very limited. So there has been criticism on how a lot of groups should be included in the development of the plan itself and how the principle should be defined in the document. However, I would like to definition of just transition and I'm going to read it verbatim. So in the documents for JEPP Indonesia, the just transition is defined as an energy transition in which the resulting social, economic and environmental race and opportunities are equitably distributed among stakeholders, according to their capacity and condition, affirmatively enable for number of stakeholders to mitigate the risk and capture benefits from optimization of justice and the framework that comes with the plan. It has nine principles that should guide on how the plan manifested in projects and implementation. However, it is quite disappointing that the detailed plan and approach on how to do just transition, especially regarding works, workers, coal jobs, you mentioned, and also energy access are quite limited in the plan. So from our perspective, it is necessary not only to mention the principle and the safeguards regarding the just transition, but how the actual plan for renewable energy power plants transitioning from coal or critical minerals jobs that are very important in the transition could also give positive impacts of the economy to different groups and also different areas in Indonesia. And I guess one of the limitations of the plan is also it's still very focused on coal, but it's not considered and also how to provide a lot of energy access to those who does not have it for now, because then we can always say, yes, you can transition from fossil energy to renewable energy. But what about people who does not really have access? What do they transition for? Fantastic. So the plan doesn't have so much on energy access in there and doesn't disaggregate the groups that would be receiving that so much, but you think it should? Is that a correct summary? Right. The energy access part is mainly missing. There are a lot of renewable projects, but it's quite high, not the big scale, not community-based renewable energy. Also, the budget for the just transition principle is less than 1% of the 20 billion US dollar. Thank you. It's very clear. Some Kelly, I'm going to come to you. Nigeria is, of course, a big oil and gas producer and has a heavy use of diesel for localized power generation. What's being discussed and what should be in scope on the jet peas? And what sorts of other processes are also needed as a complementary? Thank you very much, Ben. Apologies if I go in and out. I think I've been having some problems with my internet. So thank you very much, Chitra and Tando, for the context you provided from your own countries and the fact that jet peas have been announced in those countries. So the difference here with our Nigerian context is that we're focusing on a theory of change around diesel displacement. We don't have a coal problem. I think the coal bit of our history is long gone. So a lot of what we're trying to do now is displace diesel and petrol gen sets in the household as well as in industries and commercial commercial areas. I'll just take it back a bit and try to build up on what are the basis of our energy transition is. And that's a federal government approved energy transition plan that charts five pathways to getting to net zero by 2060. So that's around power, that's around building, that's around transport, clean cooking and industry. So our thesis when we're thinking about accessing the funding for jet peas is around diesel displacement, improved sources of cooking, so clean cooking solutions as well as e-mobility and a transition to electric mobility. You also have to think about it that Nigeria has 200 plus million people and about 250 plus different tribes and the gender split is more or less 50-50. So when you're thinking about justice in the Nigerian context, all those different statistics have to be considered. So when you look at an area like clean cooking, for instance, that is disproportionately affecting women because it's the women that go to get, that use the biomass, that use the animal don, that use the firewood, and that affects their ability to have economic opportunities. So when you're crafting the justice element and trying to think about your energy transition, you have to factor in the Nigerian context. Perhaps elsewhere there's a balance on the cooking and the men cook and women cook, but disproportionately in Nigeria there's a gender bias for women on the clean cooking side. So what we're essentially trying to do is we're trying to get the data from a bottom up approach to understand the specific geographical needs of the Nigerian people because in northern parts of the country their usage of their diesel and gen sets will differ from the southern part of Nigeria. Same thing with the clean cooking, same thing with the e-mobility. So in the Nigeria context, I believe that first of all, the scope of the jet peas has to be moved beyond just coal-based economies because at an estimate we're looking at 45 gigawatts of power being generated by diesel and petrol gen sets. If we're able to displace that, that's a significant reduction in carbon emissions. And so for me, I think that the scope needs to be widened as well as understanding the various Nigeria contexts that tie into the justice element. Thank you very much, Samkeli. And please, participants, please add your questions as we're going to the chat. The chat, I believe, is open to be adding questions. Emmanuel, let me come to you. The Kenyan context is really quite different. The grid is largely powered by renewable energy. Is there a space for jet pee type processes in Kenya? Yeah, thank you Ben. And you're right that Kenya grid is more or less more renewable. But if you reflect back, fossil fuel is not only used in electricity generation, but it's also applicable across other sectors of the Kenyan economy. So just to give an example, there's a transport sector which rely heavily on fossil fuel based services. So in looking at the scope of jet pee, perhaps it should be made context specific and also look at what is actually the heavy emitters in a given country. Beyond fossil fuel, there is also the heavy lands and biomass fields in cooking, which are also emitters. But again, Kenya where it sits, it's in a position where it can easily fall back to use of fossil fuel in electricity generation. There is a disconnect between what is stated in the policy and what is stated in the country's indices. Just to demonstrate, in the northern of the country, there is an ongoing exploration of oil, which has great potential of greenhouse gas emission. And secondly, there has been an ongoing debate on putting up coal fired power plant in the coastal Kenya. And actually that coal fired plant has a potential of releasing 8.8 million tons annually if it's put into use. So perhaps whereas Kenya hasn't yet announced any jet pee, there is a likely potential that if anything transformative and really that really looks at transition, which is the best way to do it is not put into into place. There is a likelihood that as politics evolve, somebody will be convinced that well, use of coal is quite cheap. We can actually go that direction and also switching back to generation of electricity from fossil fuels from oil is also viable, considering that we are now a producer of oil. So there is that scenario that we need to consider. And so yeah, there is a potential for the country to go that direction, but they need to be a lot of discussion to go into it. And looking at the aspect of just transition, there is a debate that is being structured in Kenya, especially on the e-cooking. And he's looking at displacing the use of charcoal and also the use of kerosene in cooking, but charcoal specifically is a sector that creates a lot of employment and actually I think is the third most sector that creates employment to people and provide almost 50% of livelihoods to those who are in the value chain. So if we were to displace the people that are reliant on charcoal, I think there is a lot that will need to be done beyond just promoting the e-cooking aspect of it. Thank you. Food for thought, the opportunity cost of future emissions and new power stations, as well as thinking about the biomass in the cooking sector as kind of in scope. So we're coming on to a poll to get your views now. So we've heard from our panelists, South Africa is predominantly focused on coal, but even then the scope for looking at energy, I think Tando mentioned across other sectors, maybe later down the line in agriculture, etc. Chitra has told us that there's a lack of looking at sort of uptake and use of energy that that is something that she thinks could be in scope. And we've heard from Nigeria that it's not all about coal, very much a diesel issue, and that the needs for that differ dramatically so they need to be really understood better. So let's come on to the poll, Julia. Are you able to put that up? Okay, so this is sort of your view around what the jet peas specifically so not more broadly the just energy transition but the just energy transition partnerships have so far had predominant focus on justice for the workers in the energy sector being displaced from coal. Do you think the scope of justice within jet peas should be and tick one of your options here? So coal only, that really that needs to be a heavy focus on this, that that should be the priority, large scale removal of coal from the electricity generation mix. Do you think it should be expanded a bit? So any job negatively impacted by growing, by greening the energy sector, so including the cooking biomass examples that have been discussed. Or do you think something else? Do you think it should be broader than that possibly? This option here we encourage you to put your views in the chat with the other options as well, put your views in the chat as to why. Please vote now. We have some interesting comments coming in the chat. Here's our results. So coal only, which is the predominant focus now only 9%. Most people are going for the second option that it should be broader within the energy sector and then looking in the chat. Energy is a need for all people, a just transition. It should be about justice for all workers, whether those losing work in any sector. We're moving away from to ensuring rights for workers and communities who will be impacted by the development of critical mineral supply chains. So those kind of input sides, even into renewables. Okay, that's interesting. Great. Right, so we're going to move on now to our second area, which is focusing on implementation pathways. Adonika, I'm going to come to you first. You've been working on operationalizing some of the cooking mentioned in Nigeria. Can you tell us more about the what and how of these implementation pathways of justice within an energy transition. Thanks Ben. So in terms of the processes that we are taking into consideration in operationalizing justice in the Niger energy transition, there's two main principles or pillars to this, which are stakeholder transition, policy alignment and awareness and more importantly, data gathering, visualization and analysis. So a key principle for the Niger energy transition office is effective coordination with stakeholders to align on policies and also foster awareness and create an appetite towards the energy transition. So we recognize the role that the diverse stakeholders have in shaping the trajectory of the energy transition. And so in clean cooking and as well as immobility and other pillars of the energy transition plan. We're organizing stakeholder sessions, which invites key players from government, private sector, civil society to discuss finance gaps, the opportunities in policy, data gaps and also establish working groups to stay the implementation of the transition plan. And then with data gathering, the energy transition plan itself is a data backed plan. And so data forms a key, a key part of understanding the needs of the needs of people. And so we take, like some Kelly said, a bottom up strategy, rooted in evidence based decision making, so gathering comprehensive data and analyzing this data to be able to identify, identify needs and then quantify like market opportunities. So that can be exemplified in the diesel displacement work and clean cooking, like you said, which are in the scope of the JETP. So in, I'll start with diesel displacement very briefly and then talk more on clean cooking. So in diesel displacement, we are collaborating with government stakeholders, private stakeholders to collect primary and secondary data on gen sets usage to understand the usage patterns, the, the fuel reliance and then be able to use that to design targeted programs to reduce the reliance of the reliance on diesel and petrol gen sets in the state. And the idea is that the data from this project which currently focuses on legacy is kind of scaled up to other states so that it becomes a nationwide efforts in reducing the reliance on diesel and petrol gen sets. And then on clean cooking, we're addressing the needs, so we realize also we're working with the 176 million Nigerians lacking access to clean cooking figure, and we understand that this has gender implications, this health environmental implications for gender implications, almost especially as women and girls are disproportionately affected by this. And so we see them as major stakeholders and we, we feel their importance, it is important to consult with them and understand their needs in terms of clean cooking, their cooking patterns, preferences in targeting solutions towards them. And so some of the things that we're doing is organizing community advocacy visits, and not just using that as a means to educate them but also to collect data. For example, we recently conducted a visit to a small community in Abuja in Nigeria, where we discussed that we met with a group of about 215 women, and during this time as well we used the opportunity to collect insights on fuel costs, technologies they use, any specific feedback they had or preferences they had towards maybe charcoal, kerosene, other types of fuel, with the idea of using those insights and future insights from other similar visits to create targeted data driven solutions for them. And then also we have the legal states leading in terms of appetite on the state government level for the clean cooking transition. So like I said with stakeholder coordination and policy alignment we've been able to get some interest on the state level with different governments and legal states is leading with this so we're currently designing a clean cooking strategy for legal states which will start with primary data collection and a sector needs assessment so we're able to identify communities that have like communities with the highest urgency to transition away from traditional cooking fuels. So, yeah, this is the approach that we're taking in. Great. Thank you so much. I was really interested in the, not only the consultations themselves but you're combining it with a kind of an advocacy awareness raising effort, and your emphasis on the kind of the data gaps and that bottom up process. Thank you very much. Please, please keep the questions coming. If you have questions for Adonika or others please put them in the Q&A box. I'm going to come to you Emmanuel I think you've been working extensively on some of these more community bottom up based processes in Kenya do you want to tell us a little bit more on what is needed for these kind of implementation pathways. Thank you. I think in Kenya. Sorry, we don't see you. I did forget to mention that I don't know if your camera is not working but it would be great if you could switch on. Oh, there we go. Hello. Let me try but I have a very weak bandwidth. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I was saying in Kenya the policy and the regulatory environment allows two levels of planning at the national and also at the subnational level. At the subnational level we've been using an energy delivery models approach to support the county governments develop their plans and in this approach then we are putting the end user development needs at the core of the planning process. Of course there are aspects of it's very heavy on data. And so we do a lot of data collection. We do have a lot of stakeholder engagement going down to the grassroots, really having conversations with community members to understand what are the development needs of these community members and understanding that energy plays an important role then when we're engaging with the community members we really don't go in and say what energy do you need or do you have access to energy or not but rather we are framing it as what are the development needs, what are the priority development needs for you. And so in bringing that process then you allow people really to give you a priority based on their own context. And in most of the cases you realize that energy will not really be given a top priority development need. Issues like income from improved agriculture, income from livestock, access to clean water, access to better quality health services in remote areas are highly learned as development needs for the communities. But along the way then you have to bring in aspects of. So you are not working in this alone as a community but the other stakeholders that you need to interact with so we bring in the aspects of the CSO participating in the process. The private sector, the government both at the national level and the sub national level participating in the discussions. One of the other key issues is that when you allow the community members to participate in ranking and prioritizing there's this sense of entrepreneurship. The also aspect of that the community is not homogenous. So within the community there are different social groupings and we are heavy on applying the JC lens in trying to understand what are the actual development needs. In cases where for example the marginalized groups like people living with HIV and AIDS depending on the context, the widows depending on their context have not participated in the initial meetings, then you find a way in which you have groups. Focus group discussion with them just also for them to have an opportunity to give you their priority development needs come up with what are the barriers based on their context that are making these needs not being met. Also come up with what best solutions will work for them based on their own context. And along the way you realize that the kind of development needs, the kind of gaps that are identified, the kind of solutions that come up from the different stakeholders starting down at the community level help a lot in shaping what kind of a plan will go out that will feed into the national energy planning process. And the beauty with the label framework in Kenya is that the national government will not develop an energy plan beyond what has come from the county governments or from the county level. So then using a bottom up approach helps to shape how the country, how Kenya as a country will then be transitioning bearing in mind that everybody has been involved in determining how the energy will play an enabling role in the different development needs they prioritize. Thank you very much. So a very structured approach to really gathering that data, understanding the needs and feeding it up. Tithra, I'll come to you for the Indonesia perspective and also throw in a question that we have from Claire. I was just asking that you've touched on some of the limitations of the jet piece, but what are some of the external challenges of utilizing these instruments in Indonesia. Maybe you can speak to that with respect to the implementation. Right. So I guess to build upon what I have just shared on how energy delivery model approach could be utilized effectively in answering the justice part of providing energy access. To us understanding the complexity of providing reliable sustainable energy access in Indonesia is very important because we are a very massive country we have more than 17,000 islands with with the very different development stage in a way so we can talk about urban versus rural national versus subnational. And I guess understand the nuance and complexity of the issue is very important because then justice will have to take into account what's what's actually happening in different areas in different community. I observed that the two approach which is assessment and intervention could could be beneficial in terms of providing an effective and optimum policy to answers the energy access challenges. So we need to carefully assess what's the needs of the people of the community, and it's usually not on the energy for basic activities but also to increase their welfare to increase their access to education health, etc. So it will, it will definitely provide a sound basis on how to intervene. The next step the intervention. We talk about different sets of authority in Indonesia we talked on the government level of authority in the national and subnational they are very different. And especially for the development priorities, each subnational government has their own sets of agenda. And it is quite important to do policy advocacy targeted at different sets of the priority. So there is no a simple recipe to promote justice in energy access and bottom up energy access approach from our experience with energy delivery model and also just transition program in Indonesia. We need to carefully maintain first and the same perspective and understanding between different stakeholders in the same region, or same stakeholders in different regions. And then we have to give a sound assessment on what to proceed next with providing energy access and how to promote justice in the development of energy access it means consultation involvement, even public awareness. And just to give a different perspective on how people see energy access and justice. And it requires a lot of time so we cannot finish assessment or the intervention in such short amount of time. And I guess this is a call for the government and important stakeholders just to take the time to carefully maintain the assessment and intervention. And I guess to answer the question on jet P if we talk about just energy transition it will definitely be on the jet P program that we have for now. And we also talk about different type of transition because we have cold provinces. We also have known cold provinces, we have provinces with different energy access. We have provinces with very good energy access but very low development problems. So we need to understand that the complexity of the situation is there, and that we need time. And then we need to two important steps to ensure that it comes to fruition, really good assessment and a sound intervention in terms of policy and also probably investment. Thank you very much teacher so maybe a message there that the kind of the impetus of jet P's around things like the cop process is too quick to have a really meaningful bottom up participation and engagement on what justice looks like within the energy transition Thank you. Tando, let me come to you and and move a little bit to if you if you can talk to the implementation but also I think you mentioned earlier on the policy and finance maybe you can speak to a little bit of what's needed within the policy, and the types of finance that that might be required to realize what's being proposed in South Africa. Thanks. So, so let's talk policy first and then we'll talk finance next policy front. The first one that was needed or is needed. We recognize the need for climate change in this country. Right. And in the climate bill, it speaks to the establishment of what's called the presidential climate mission which is the body that's coordinating select is just transition. Now, the bill itself is still available, although we're expecting it to become an actual act early next year, and in so doing it will make the presidential climate commission a constituted body. What this means is that outside of its mandate to then operate and coordinate the just condition in the country. It will also have the necessary authority to then put in place new policy proposals that speak to specific changes that would happen relative to delivering on some of the justice elements, some of the equity elements and even the energy elements. So example of this for example is we've got the electricity regulations act bill at the moment which speaks to the shift from the minister being the exclusive authority to determine which energy sources will be used in the capacity there out and shifting that away to an independent system operator, which will then manage the entire system, including the different generation options, including the different distributors as well. Largely, our current policy does not make provision for private players to feed electricity direct to consumers. At this stage, the policy still speaks to electricity being from the state entity which is as come at this moment, so IPP is take the off takers as come to the national utility so IPP generates national utility takes and distributes to municipalities and direct to some consumers. The system and part driven by the PCC process will say, there will be multiple generation sources that look at multiple generation options. From those options will go to independent system operator will then determine what is the quantities needed relative to the respective generation options, and then who's the best person to then distribute that whether that's going to be a private company that is going to be the municipality or that might be as come depending on where that is. And then really where things are how it relates to then some of these justice components is, again, going back to that issue of the free basic electricity right that is a policy that exists, but the allocations haven't yet changed. One of the things that needs to change, particularly to address the justice components and equity components is those allocations, and then the access to for people to then have some of that electricity, and who will pay for it. One of the challenges is where the money's going to come from and I think that's just debate for for many different spaces. And that's happening at a national level when you come down to sub national and local government level. It's only, at least in our country it's only some national governments that have got energy developments. So even though at the moment you've got a largely centralized energy system we need to move to decentralized energy system, but local government does not have that's calling the rights, according to present policy to be able to distribute directly to generate their own electricity and just to put it directly to the consumers which, in our context with help right because if you look at the geography of South Africa, 80% of our coast we just sitting in the northern part of the country, a large transmission line mean that it's a very expensive to to transport that electricity down to the western cable to Cape Town, for example. So the ability to be able to generate the electricity at source is something that is really being pushed out of from a policy perspective as well. This is why the independent system operators coming necessary. But also, the need to be a space where communities now can contact directly the local government local municipalities to be able to get the access to electricity. We've got what we call the indigent policy which makes this allocation but it in itself is insufficient because there are many people who qualify for this on paper but don't actually have direct access to it, and therefore cannot reap the benefits of cheaper electricity as a result of this policy. So this is something that's also been looked at from a local government level that's been pushed at a at a mayoral level and. Fernando, thanks. There's a lot to unpack there. But we're in the interest of time. I mean, again, you're talking about much more localized processes and the requirement for that. I'm going to come. We only have five minutes left I'm going to come quickly for for one or two minutes with some Kelly. So to sort of on the finance policy question throw in some of these questions that are coming in the chat. So there's a question around who really, if we're talking about kind of energy access and some of these constituents that might be currently part of the jet peas, who is who is actually pushing that at the national level is it is it government is it CSOs is it kind of private sector. Where is that demand coming from some Kelly over to you. Sorry, I was trying to unmute. Okay, so I think it's a I think it's a combination of responsibilities. Obviously, the government's major role is protection of life and property. And part of that protection of life and property involves providing energy access. So in the Nigeria context, we have two key goals as relates to energy energy transition that's universal access by 2030, and reaching at zero by 2060. And that will involve all stakeholders participating in that in understanding that process. So at the moment I think about 96 million Nigerians lack access to great electricity. So that then gives you the context of how do you do some upgrade solutions. How do you get some of those solutions to be on grid. Well, I want to quickly touch on the financing. The financing bit of the energy transition is extremely important for for the justice piece that we spoken about all day. If $10 billion is promised, and only 3% of that is grant. I'm not really sure that that is a justice play, because at the end of the day, they're already existing debt issues. As a result of COVID, prior to COVID, as countries are trying to develop, develop in the global south. So it's very important that when we're when when international partner group or G funds is making these pledges. They consider so in Nigeria, for instance, it's very difficult when you're looking at clean solutions to get return on investments of 3040% or 15% as the case may be. So when you provide concessional loans to drive clean cooking. The clean cooking drive, you're putting a huge burden on whatever country that is. So in even in the core context, I know they're thinking about it in terms of KPEX funding and trying to upscale. But I think that that consideration, we should really be focusing on how we finance because for for for Africa in general, we contribute a very minimal amount, but we're disproportionately affected by climate change activities. So I think that the financing when considering justice should reflect those disparities. Absolutely. Thank you very much. It's an important last point. Well, thank you very much to all our panelists. Let me try to sum up as much as I can. I think what's come across here is the jet peas themselves need to broaden at least with to to encompass the spoke the scope of the wider energy sector. This can include jobs that are being impacted, even in the mining of of renewables, the other rare metals that are used for that. I think there's also appetite for the use of energy so outside of the energy sector. What's the justice within that as part of an energy transition and the real need across that to be having bottom up participatory processes to really understand and and distinguish between the different needs otherwise. The decisions are not going to be delivered, and the justice is not going to be to be met. So perhaps that kind of initial coal jobs push is not broad enough. We certainly need more concessional finance to some killer to your last point and more grant based finance to really achieve some of the justice. There's a question then with within jet peas versus what the wider energy transition of the roles of other stakeholders and national governments in delivering, but putting that as part of the mix and bringing some of these discussions into the debates that are going to be happening at COP 28. So thank you very much all again, and we'll continue the discussion offline. Thanks everyone is really great. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye.