 My name is Kimi Ide Foster. I am the immediate past president and a current director with Hawaii Lawyers. And I do wanna say before we get started, first of all, thank you to Think Check for having us, we're really excited about this. And a little bit of background about Hawaii Lawyers. We are a nonprofit organization that was founded in 1982. Our mission is to improve the lives and careers of women in legal professions, to influence the future of the legal profession and to enhance the status of women and promote equal opportunities for all. We recognize that's quite a lofty goal. And we really couldn't accomplish any of that without the amazing individuals in our community, which brings us to today's segment actually. Each year, Hawaii women lawyers, honors, let individuals, but there are contributions to our profession, public service and our support of our mission. And today I have the great honor to proudly and I'm so sorry, belatedly award our 2020 Presidential Award to Ms. Rachel Wong. And I'm also here with my co-host, Kathy Betts. So thank you, Rachel. Thank you, Kathy, for joining us today. And once you guys start off by introducing yourself. Kathy, do you wanna go first? Sure, hi everybody. Kathy Betts, I'm the current director of the Department of Human Services. And I'm pretty grateful to be here today with all of these amazing women. Thank you. And I'm Rachel Wong. I'm a former director of the Department of Human Services, have honored that and now lead one-year future social impact business and also co-lead Safe Spaces and Workplaces Initiative to end workplace sexual harassment. Thank you. Thank you. First of all, congratulations, Rachel, on receiving the Hawaii Women Lawyers President's Award. Sorry, Kimmy, go ahead. No, no, I was gonna say the exact same thing. Like I'm so sorry that we're a year late and we completely missed your celebratory dinner. We really appreciate having you here today. And Kathy, did you wanna get started with your line of questions first or just kind of jump into this? We can just jump in. Okay, so the first thing I wanna talk about is Rachel for better or for worse, I think almost everybody associates you as being kind of the first and most prominent whistleblower under the Me Too movement. And that's not a fair assessment of all the things you've done in the community and all the leadership roles you've done with Director of Human Services. I know you've also done the Healthcare Association of Hawaii and your list of accomplishments goes on and on. But like I said, for better or for worse, I think most of us are just incredibly grateful to you for what you did in advancing the Me Too cause. And I know that we've spoken about this in private and of course, if there's anything that comes up that you do not want to talk about just how less than we'll learn. But I think what Kathy was saying earlier when we were chatting prior to this meeting is, what kind of was going through your mind and how did you find the courage to do this? Like where, kind of tell us about that whole experience I think. Sure, and I wanna start off by thanking Hawaii women lawyers for recognizing people in the community. You folks have been vanguards and so much of what you do opening up space for women, for equity. Kathy and the work that you've done throughout your career, same thing. And so I see this conversation as more of that opening up space to talk about difficult conversations. And so much what I've learned in Hawaii is that we really do have our culture of silence. And so when you ask me about my own experience, I don't think it's unique. It's just something that I was in a place where I could come forward. And for those who are not familiar, when I was serving as a department director had experienced workplace sexual harassment by then powerful legislator. And at that time, in that moment, even with a male colleague with me, I just, I felt powerless. There was nothing that I could say or do to prevent that from happening. Because of Kathy, you know, the responsibility you carry when you're representing and serving over 300,000 people in the community. And so had talked to other people, had and learned that there was really not much because it was different branches of government. And so just kind of compartmentalized it. Like women, men, kids, non-binary, we've all been bullied at some point in our lives. And we moved forward. So it wasn't until the Me Too movement came aboard and started going across the country and the world that one day I woke up and I realized I was just this, I was internally compelled to say something. And I was in a place where I was working independently and it was no longer constrained by fear of losing our budget or retaliation. And my main concerns for making sure my husband was okay because it's your loved one that goes through with you. If you, you know, I filed a very, what ended up being a public sexual harassment complaint. And also out of consideration to the governor to give him a heads up and he gave us immediate support. Yeah, that's incredible. Rachel, I remember us having some conversations prior to that and I'm just still in awe of your courage and bravery because I don't think if I was in the same shoes if I'm not sure if I would be able to come forth. So I know that there's a lot of people in the community that are very grateful for what you've done just by making that step. And like you said, sharing that space, creating a safe space to have the language around what is happening because I think everyone is a lot of times in isolation and we feel like perhaps whether there's gaslighting or toxic work environment, I think a lot of people feel like they're alone and they can't necessarily come forth. So just wanna thank you on behalf of so many other women. Thank you. And, you know, I should share and I don't know if I shared this with both of you and now a larger audience is that when I say compelled it was really because it came from a deep place within that was rooted when I really went down it was rooted in a place of love for Hawaii. You know, love for Hawaii and hope for a different future so that others wouldn't have to be treated this way. And so, you know, with me too coming forth it's a different time now. I recognize that in the past there were different types of acceptable behavior. And that's not the case now where, you know, we can really build on our shared values in Hawaii of mutual respect of inclusion of diversity of Aloha. And so when I realized that this is where it was coming from I really don't see it as courageous. I was propelled forth and very cognizant that every step of the way was hoping I was hoping to open the doors and broaden the doorway for others. And so it was never about, you know him versus me or it versus us it was really about how might we all. And so I think, you know, when people still find me and we talk about changing systems and people continue to come forward every day and speak their truths and are hoping for change, you know, changing systems mine was just very public. You know, I want to acknowledge that this is happening all the time and that it really helps to come from a place that is rooted in something that is limitless. You know, anger can motivate you but it will burn you out at some point. When I think we see you, you know from two individuals that know you well, you know, we see you living your core values so I can understand that I guess explanation of being compelled from somewhere within to do something rather than thinking with the logical brain, right of being fearful or I need to, you know really grit up to have some courage to do this like I can see that you, you know obviously live your core values but from that experience it helped you create safe spaces and workplaces and then it also informs some of your work with one shared future. I wanted to see if you can talk a little bit about safe spaces and workplaces and maybe also some of the good work that you're doing with one shared future right now. Sure, thank you. And you know, I want to share that we're all doing the same work so many of us, it's our different training it's our approaches. And so just here today that, you know we're expanding the space for this conversation. So thanks for safe spaces and workplaces. It's an initiative between one shared future and child and family service and we founded it in 2019 and it was born out of many of our experiences with workplace sexual harassment. Karen Tan, who's the CEO of CFS Child and Family Service she gathered a group of women together. You know, and I remember we were in the basement of a local establishment and went around the room all execs all people you would recognize. And in our introductions every single woman shared about her own one workplace sexual harassment experience. You know, I remember one was her first job as a teenager and someone else shared about something that happened the previous week. And it was this recognition that we all have the shared experience and what might we do about it. We were fortunate that Hawaii women lawyers had already launched its survey. I think at that time and folks were just about to publish it about female attorneys experiences in Hawaii which were graphic and sobering and sombering and our circles expanded and the conversations became we need to do something for what. And so Karen and I, you know with a small whee of people that represent employment experts, sexual harassment, subject matter experts, communications people who all volunteered their time said let's come together and act. And so the idea behind safe spaces and workplaces is we conducted the first statewide survey of workplace sexual harassment and found that nearly the majority of people that responded to our survey men, women, you know have had been sexually harassed during their time working in Hawaii. 42% of men, 52% of women, you know once we started naming what workplace harassment is that it's not just somebody ongoing you or touching you it can be inappropriate text messages it can be someone on Zoom, you know sending messages or instructing you to dress a certain way or wear more makeup. You know, we found that it's not a matter of if it happens it's when and so using that and building on our shared values we reached out to employer champions throughout the state and said will you be a part of standing with us for building and nurturing safe and respectful workplaces? And several of these initial founding champions you know they gave their time they gave their support and they were part of us launching in November of 2019. And the idea is this collective for us to come together and be able to say when something happens what kind of education support can we provide you so that we can do the right thing? So it's an ongoing process. And I know that you've mentioned Rachel that you had I think you said kind of you're graduating classes of safe spaces and workplaces and one shared future. So what does kind of the program look like because I love the idea of having a collaborative approach because I think this is one of those problems that absolutely cannot be solved top down in fact that usually only exacerbates the problem. If you remember when we like you said why when lawyers did logic survey and one of my absolute favorite responses that we got to this was like, well no because the appropriate things do for someone who's harassed us to report to the superior. And I was like, but something like 90% of the time it's the superior that's doing the harassing. So there's obviously a break in the chain here that needs to be fixed. So if you could talk a little bit more about kind of like the collaborative approach you're talking about and how do you actually affect real change because I think it's very easy for corporations to sort of whitewash and say, yes, we're going to commit to doing X. It kind of like for pride you turn your logo into a rainbow for one month and then you don't actually do anything that doesn't achieve anything for anybody. So how do you actually see concrete results? Thank you, thanks for asking that. And I should make the distinction that once your future is the primary work that I'm doing and that's the professional development that consulting the trainings and facilitation that we do and that we partnered with CFS to do safe spaces and workplaces. But it's the same thing. It's about how do we create safe spaces for people to gather around shared goals? So whether it's about improving the lives and opportunities for children in the foster care system or nurturing safe workplaces it's gathering people together, building on strengths from an abundance growth mindset providing the tools and shared experiences where you can be vulnerable and learn together and then actually implement the what-ifs and what's possible. So for one shared future we've worked with many different state departments some of the Honolulu city and county with the governor's cabinet, a lot of nonprofits and so we're seeing that when we do bring people together and we affirm our strengths and our talents and our shared experience that we can start to acknowledge the traumas in our own lives together shared histories that could have resulted in scar tissue building up when we acknowledge it just like if we've been sexually harassed it's how often do we get to pause and say, this happened to me and I hear you I believe you this happened to you and I support you. And when that happens there's the ability to say, okay now how can we support each other for a different workplace or a different outcome? And the wisdom really comes from the people within and with safe spaces and workplaces we're flipping it on its head we're not going after anyone we're engaging employers to be champions in this. And one thing I should share is that when we started reaching out to CEOs and executive directors and community leaders I would say, will you stand with us to be part of building safe workplaces? And many people immediately said, of course I will this is part of our values because I'm a father, I'm a husband I believe in this others you could see them thinking and they would say, yeah this would be good for our brand this would be good for retention bottom line, yeah we're in and then others asked me, who else has said yes? And when I listed the names of CEOs and leaders they said, oh we're in and so that's where I realized we can do positive nudging of people into saying this is the standard of how we wanna respect each other and live together in Hawaii. Absolutely and I originally like the way that you frame it as strengths-based and from an abundance mindset to do that work I know that a lot of your work focuses around navigating change and obviously this last year and a half has been us navigating rapidly every single day processing a new change or a new emergency or a new rule or a new mandate it's hard for humans to continue at that speed processing or not processing can you share a little bit more about about how you do that work and what kind of new projects that you're undertaking with navigating change? Sure, thank you. When we met earlier today we talked about a phrase that Michelle Kirk at Pro Service had shared with me and I quickly adopted and so many times people talk about the new normal after COVID and she shared is the next normal because life is about the next normal and the next normal and that's what the two of you excel at and it's a matter of what we found with One Shared Future is we're working with so many government agencies with not with people like Hawaiian lawyers who give, give, give women in general are in places of nurturing generations up, down your workplace, your community, your families and so what happened during COVID is that people who are already given giving were being asked to give more and when we started recognizing with our graduates as we would create open space on Friday afternoons for everybody said people were tapped out without even knowing it people were burning out before the pandemic and so what we recognized before it started being the key phrasing we'd see in headlines and everything is self-care and wellbeing and we started doing the research and from Healthy Minds Institute we started teaching that wellbeing is a skill and so we started offering a five session series over Zoom called Thriving and Change and Challenge it's about cultivating resilience and we've worked with departments around the state with nonprofits, with men's group, with different groups and it's really about when you're going so hard that you don't even know that you're about to pass out because you're so dehydrated and what if you have support and time and space for someone or someone to bring people together and to co-create the standards of presence in that safe space and put in an IV so that you can hydrate and come back up to the starting blocks and then along the way it to experience and learn some tools, knowledge so that you can continue to drink along the way through work, through life so that's what we've been doing and we're finding that it's been not only has it been very impactful for people in their workplace they've taken it into their homes they're sharing it with others it includes mindfulness and science and balance and it's things that are accessible that we all need and to recognize that this has been a long haul for many, many people Yeah, I love that phrase the next normal because I think that we had spoken before this that now that people are starting to kind of go back to the office or go back to their workspaces and things are reopening not just in Hawaii but across the country there's definitely a tension building you can see it between I think kind of the big boss corporation they wanna snap things back to the way it was before but you can't rewind the clock things have happened and we've all had to grow and change and so I'd love to get your thoughts and how do we create a next normal that actually works for people because I think it's abundantly clear that the old normal once we were forced to hold it up to the light it didn't work it doesn't work and like you were saying people are burning out like Kathy, I can't even imagine your position during the pandemic like you were just living all these changes in real time and like there's no Trump there's no net under you if you follow you follow then everyone's like, well then why didn't they do it this way and it's like, okay, have you tried not to use a state agency during the pandemic? Absolutely Right, Rachel if you could talk about that Oh no, Kathy, go ahead Just that I reminded myself and my staff very frequently that we needed to give each other grace because it was just we could have ended up on the, you know in the newspaper what have you everybody makes mistakes for fallible it shouldn't be expected that we're perfect all the time or even some of the time we're fallible human beings so just giving you know, just giving and providing grace and space for people to have that try to create some sort of balance during the last year and a half Kathy, I want to affirm that because we would be working with some of your team members throughout the pandemic and your messaging trickled down you know, to give to give each other and self grace and so one of there were two things I wanted to share when you asked this question to me is one, how do we support each other and how do we do it from our role? So, Kathy, in your role as a director you set the tone you know, you created space for there to be flexibility it wasn't binary of win lose you know, fail succeed it's we're here you know, we're human and we're doing what we can do and so that's one you know, that's one thing and then a actionable actionable way of doing that is you know, one of my hopes that comes out of COVID is that we've gained greater awareness of our own comfort levels you know, we it's our risk assessment of am I comfortable being in that space? Am I vaccinated? Do I wear a mask? Am I comfortable with the people who are there? Are we comfortable taking off masks? And so, you know how might we carry what we've learned with COVID and our own awareness into the next normal and next normal? And so, tangible way you know, and local people you know, we don't we don't you know, stick out and we don't say things and that's part of the culture of silence but I've learned this you know, to be able to offer up myself when I'm meeting with people I give options and I say well, I'm fully vaccinated I'm comfortable always meeting on Zoom or outside for a meal or this or this for this you know, I'm not asking anybody to disclose anything they're not comfortable with you know, I'm just saying this is what I'm comfortable with let me know what you do and I want to I want to match you I want to meet you or you are and in the same way you know, as we've figured out new ways of interacting with people I realized there's an opportunity when there's a group of people especially those who don't know each other and those who know each other to be the person that pauses and says hey, we're about to take a picture I just want to let folks know I'm okay taking my mask off for the full group photo want to make sure that we only do that if everybody is because we want to make sure that everybody's comfortable and what if we built that in into our social and our work interactions with each other I mean, what if it really was about knowing what we're comfortable with asking what others are comfortable with and respecting it might we not have as much sexual harassment might we be able to interact in different ways in this next normal so that's that's my hope Yeah, it's funny when you say it like that it's it's such an obvious parallel you know, where it's like you wouldn't take off your mask if somebody specifically told you hi, I'm uncomfortable with this but we had, you know even that actually was something that at least I personally had to get comfortable saying to people or when people would stand in my six foot bubble like one of the things that drives me absolutely nuts is when people stand between the dots on the floor and I'm like, those are there for a reason what are you doing? But like you said, it's the culture in Hawaii that you just stand there for it and you're like, I'm uncomfortable but I'm not going to say anything you know, so getting kind of creating that space and Kathy, you must you must have to push that envelope too where it's like you've never struck me as an aggressive person but you have to be an assertive person so, you know I'd love to hear what you both have to say kind of about like like Rachel said, how do you make this an actionable item? How do you actually get people to say I need this space or respect if they need that space? Right, well, I think logistically there are different, you know processes you can put into place to make it feel less like you're being aggressive and you're totally true Kimmy, I'm not an aggressive person and like, like all of us I don't like confrontation but I try to think about how it would break something to like a friend how do I say it really respectfully but I can get the message across that, you know, this isn't working or I'm not comfortable with this or, you know you cross my boundary when this X, Y, Z happen it is just like wellness is a practice, Rachel it being able to articulate something clearly directly not aggressively or to inflict pain or yield or shame on someone that is, it's a practice it's a practice and I mean I haven't experienced just last week where I was like, I don't wanna say what I have to say and it almost felt like I went out of body and it just came out and it ended up coming out respectfully because I, you know I want to treat people with respect and dignity in the workplace it hurts me when I hear people are in a toxic work environment are not comfortable or not feeling well or safe so I think going from that direct point of, you know with dignity and respect but that's not always easy especially if somebody else hasn't necessarily treated you with dignity or respect how you make that message clear it's hard and it's a practice Yeah, I would add because Kathy, you're so wise I would add it gets easier when there's people standing beside you you know, in the Obama White House they found that women were being talked over and so they started amplifying each other so Kathy, you say something and I referenced this so as Kathy just said and so why can't that be for any type of difficult, you know conversation or creating a space or creating the space for other people to be heard or respected you know, so that's something that we can all do you know, we can practice it with our families we can practice it in the mirror we can, you know it doesn't have to be for something big it can really be the affirmation, Keisha Yeah, no, I love that and you know, I have noticed how much more confident I feel in workplace settings when one of my male colleagues will say things like that like, well actually Kimmy just said that you know, and it instantly creates this space for me to be like, yeah I didn't just say that hang on a minute and it's one of those things but like you said, it gets easier with time and I love that phrase that wellness is you know, it's an active it's an ongoing activity I think that there's a temptation at least I see it where like you said, all the headlines now are right well-being and take space for yourself but they feel like buzzwords without anybody actually having the conversation to okay, so how do we actually do that? And I hate that part about it so I love hearing you say that I love hearing both of you talking about like yes, there are just so many things we can do there are ways you can actually integrate this and make this happen and not just the next flashpoint Yeah and you know, this is Hawaii women lawyers I want to acknowledge what you folks are doing in the webinars for your members that you know are about well-being and you can care of yourself because I mean, you know I've been through many health challenges in my life and I'm alive, you know because of a donated kidney and a family who gave that gift of life and you know, if we don't have our health you know, we can't do our job we can't be there for each other and so ultimately our responsibility is to be able to take care of ourselves so that we can support others so that we can affect change You the one, I mean, you hold this you know, it's always, it's good to hear it though we always need reminders I mean, I think this, but if anything this last year and a half has taught us is that we need reminders to slow down and permission so even just having this conversation, right I mean, I know that we're all working hard but just to, you know reiterate to our friends and sisters and brothers that, you know, I give you permission to slow down but it's normal for you to take care of yourself you know, it's abnormal not to so remember that you're a living human being that needs like Rachel described you need your hydration whether that's physical, you know spiritual, psychological hydration it's just, it's a challenge, I think it's been a challenge the last year so always so grateful for your words of wisdom, Rachel I know, Rachel, I honestly don't know if I could have made it the last few years without having met you and having grown a relationship with you and I'm just so thankful for that time with you and thankful for everything you've done for, you know not just the small groups of women that we meet together with but the state like you said, it came from a place of love and I think it takes a lot of courage and a lot of resilience to look at something you love and say, I think we can do better than this so, you know thank you, Dan and that's, thank you for your time and that's it for me but Kathy, did you have any closing remarks then? Just congratulations, well deserved, Rachel and also your recent Peter Luncheon Award from the YWCA right after yours super proud of you so keep up all the amazing work and looking forward to continuing to work with you in the future thank you and thank you to both of you and your organization's departments what you're doing we're all in it together absolutely we are thank you guys