 Welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, how can schools build children's healthy coping skills and self-esteem? And I'm in conversation with Jo Morton Brown. Hi there, my name is Jo and I work as an emotional health practitioner. So I'm quite lucky because it blends quite a few roles into one. So I'd say that my main bread and butter is delivering counselling and that's with four year olds all the way up to 19. So I'm based at a high school, a sixth form, delivering counselling. I'm a family support worker at a primary school and deliver clinical supervision and then a trainer of mental health, trying to educate adults about mental health that affect children and young people. That's quite a lot of different jobs, Jo. It is. It's great though because I never get bored, never get bored. That's a really nice way of looking at it. And do you find that working across quite a wide range of ages there, does that kind of impact on what you do? Do you have to do very different things with the different age groups or is it similar? Yeah, definitely. So at the primary school, I deliver a kind of, as a family support worker, it's more kind time. So it's like mentoring, so it's 20 minute sessions because obviously children at school, they're so busy and you really can't provide that space for counselling at a primary school sometimes. It's not as easy as that. So I find that that's very much just playing and stories going out and walks around the school playground. And then as you kind of, as they get older, there's this more sense of counselling and certainly for the sixth formers, for key stage five, there's this real sense of appreciation of counselling and them having your time and then really trying to help themselves. And I think that's what's most rewarding is that as they're walking out, you might say to them, you know, just consider maybe the last time that you felt like this. And then when they return the next week, they'll sit down and they'll be like, oh, and I thought about that. And they'll really try and help themselves. There's more of a sense of appreciation the older they get. That's really interesting. And do you think that that's partly because they have got really good at learning throughout their school career? Because I'm not sure you'd necessarily get that great of a response from an adult, would you? Not always, not always. I think because at secondary school, there's this sense of what's encouraged maybe by the parents. So there's on the referral form, it's kind of got is the student willing to attend counselling and sometimes the box is ticked and they're sitting there and they don't necessarily want it, which makes it a lot harder in the first place. But I just think that, yes, as they get older, they there's more of a chance that they want to be there rather than having to be there. Because we both know that if a child's, you know, encouraged and made to have counselling, it's not going to help. It's not going to really get to where you want to go to with them as a journey. Absolutely. So the kind of question for today's episode is around how schools can build children's healthy coping skills and their self-esteem. And I wondered if we could just start thinking about from your point of view, why this matters and why it matters, maybe like now more than it might have done in the past, if you feel that's changed. I think what's changed at the moment is this sense, certainly for students, this sense of helplessness. And I feel that with students that aren't coping, I think what makes it hard for them is just this sense of not knowing how to cope. And it's quite scary, isn't it for adults? I know certainly for myself when I'm delivering my counselling, it's hard at the moment because there is such uncertainty. And we're asking these young people to cope whilst being at school, whilst maybe not seeing their friends as often as they'd like within year bubbles. And I think my biggest observation at the moment is that kids are getting bored with their year bubbles, kids are getting bored with being in the same class with the same people. And that's no disrespect to their peers. But certainly I've got a little boy. I think that he's just missing seeing the older ones or kind of just having that interaction. And I can imagine that that that must be something that must be hard for some of the kids as well. So has your job changed in response to the current situation? Are you seeing different kids or doing different things with them? I think the hardest thing is it's a lot it's more restricted because normally in counselling, certainly at secondary school, normally there might be a game of chess or there might be some some colouring or just some Play-Doh and just some kind of just gentle resources to use whilst interacting and delivering the counselling session. But obviously we can't use resources. And then the hardest thing certainly with the younger ones is that there is there is no resources. There's there's there's nothing like that and not being able to get close and have story time. That's just because I've got one particular child that just loves story time and wouldn't normally come in with grab the cushions on the floor side by side and read stories like literally 20 minutes worth of reading. So that's changed and that's made it harder. And it's when you find it hard as a professional, it's really hard to try and contain that. Yes, really, that's hard. That's been really hard to learn. And then I just think that there's more about this. And I'm not saying anxiety as in an anxiety disorder, but for all our students, but certainly there's more students that are anxious, just in general, just leaving the house, it might be coming to school, certainly more attachment. I've seen a lot of kind of that separation anxiety. And that's not just your little ones. And I almost kind of predicted this back in September. And I said to my boss that actually what we're going to see is all the primary school children, it will be as if for some of them it's their first day at reception school. Certainly for the parents as well. And then for secondary school, it's for some of those students, it's their first day at year seven, first day again. And that was tough, certainly at the beginning of the academic year, seeing that just that separation between kids. And has that settled over time or is that still an issue that you're observing now? I think one thing that I've witnessed is kids are far more resilient than we give them credit for. They are so, so resilient. And we are too, but they really have surprised me. And I think that certainly during to lockdown or during that period of lockdown, I had a certain, I'd say there was a handful of students and there was three at primary school and there was two at secondary school. And I just was thinking to myself, I think to park it thinking that we've just got them back into school, this emotional school based avoidance. You know, gosh, it's going to be so hard in September. And do you know what, Pookie? They have just nailed it. They nailed the return. So actually them having that time of school for some of them have really helped kids grow or maybe giving them a sense of appreciation that actually I'd much rather be at school than at home maybe. Yeah, so they begin to appreciate it in a slightly different way. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, they always say. I like to think so. I like to think so. And how in your kind of family support work role, how has that relationship between school and home kind of been important in this time? Has that changed? That's changed. So I think communication is the biggest thing that I've seen between the school and the parents and the way that the parents respond to the way that the school are dealing with new restrictions and things like that. I'm really fortunate that the primary school I work at, they are absolutely fantastic and the head teacher's brilliant and she really gets well-being. The whole school has this real good focus about well-being and actually I remember back in September, it was the first, they had the first three weeks was just that transition. And it was beautiful, it was really beautiful. So I think that communication is the biggest thing between a school and the parents. And then that obviously filters down because if you have calm parents, then that will help just filter down just the children as well, in my opinion anyway. No, and certainly that's something I've heard said a lot and a lot of my work focuses around creating that feeling of safety and that where the children are gonna feel safe in school that begins before they ever leave home, doesn't it? So yeah, communicating home really matters. And what do we need to be communicating with home? It sounds like you've seen some really good communication happening there but what do we need to be telling families and how can we do that? That's a tough one. I think the biggest thing for families is just to be reassured. I'm mum to a six-year-old and I think that actually the hardest thing as parents is for me personally is I've not met his teacher. I don't know what his classroom is like. I don't know where his tray is. I don't know where he puts his coat and it's so hard. You know, he's not allowed to take a bag in and things like that. So as a parent, it's really hard because there's this sense of you not being able to necessarily share the school day as much and communication between the teacher and the parent is so important. But obviously when you're on a school day and you're all doing respective social distancing and you've got your mask, you haven't got that. You know, did you have a good day or just that little bit of reassurance? So I can imagine for parents, it can be quite challenging too. But who would have predicted that would be where we are? You know, we're a really, my family background is, we come from Scotland. So New Year's Day is really quite big for us. And if somebody was just said to us on New Year's Day, oh, by the way, this is how 2020 is going to be. I'm pretty certain for men, maybe for you, it's nothing like I'd imagined it to have been. No, absolutely. And I think it's difficult as well. I'm personally finding this moment where we are right now sort of heading into winter, very challenging because it feels like I think at the beginning, there was this sense of we can get through this and now it feels like, well, maybe we're still quite near towards the beginning and we don't know what comes next and how do we plan for that? And how, I mean, in your work with children and with families and I guess you work with stuff as well, like what are you doing in terms of preparing for what comes next given that we don't know how long this will go on for and what it looks like and whether there'll be further periods of lockdown or isolation or how do you prepare for that? I just kind of live in the here and now and we focus on, I really think it's important for children to tap into no matter how young they are to tap into like their why. And certainly for secondary school, I think it's really important that we allow and we give a sense of hope. I really believe that school is such a safe place for so many students, not just those students that are PPP students or more of a disadvantage but just for everybody, for a majority of our students, school is that safe place. So I think that it's just making the most of the here and now, okay, it's not great. Yes, your best friends in the year above and yes, you're not being able to see them. But actually, and I do think actually that there have been year groups that have become closer, certainly year seven, eight and nine. So that's the ages of 11 to 13, 14, that they've got closer. I had one student particularly back in September that didn't know anybody in the class that she'd been put in, she's in year eight. So second year at high school and she didn't know anybody in her class. And she would only see her friends at break and lunchtime because they were all part of the same year group. But actually what's really helped her is she's actually made new friends. Oh, that's good. New friends that actually, we wouldn't necessarily sometimes do because we just stay with the ones we've got, don't we? Certainly when we're at school, you just stay with what you know sometimes. I think it goes way beyond school. It does, don't it? I think it does. It's one of the things I always find interesting because obviously I speak at a lot of conferences and things and people always hang out with the people that they know and that idea that sometimes if you mix the groups up, oh, that's a... I love doing that though. I love doing that. You're delivering the training and you get to mix people up when they've come in in twos and then you mix them up. I love it because it just brings a sense of togetherness with the group as well though, doesn't it? Absolutely. And I have to say for me, it's been one of the really good outcomes from lockdown is how actually when we bring people together, we've all got this kind of aim in mind of supporting our children and young people but it doesn't matter if we're a headteacher or a doctor or a parent or a social worker, just everyone's in it together and we're all having to learn. And I feel that it's broken down a lot of those barriers and that, yeah, there's a lot more synergy really which has been really positive. Talk to me a bit more about helping children to find their why. What do you mean by that and why does it matter and how do we do it? So I think it's really important for those students that are maybe struggling emotionally and having far too many tough days with them to actually have this sense of hope and obviously working as a counsellor, I am working with students that are suicidal, that have lost a sense of hope, are feeling completely helpless. And I just think that it's really important that actually we can provide this sense of hope and providing them that actually the way that you're feeling in the here and now isn't going to last forever. It's just getting them to really keep going and working towards getting through this storm. I read this quote that not always is a storm there to destruct things, but actually sometimes it's to create a path. And that's actually, I just want children and young people to realise that we go through these challenging times to help us become sometimes a better person from it and develop empathy and know the power of how important it is to listen to somebody. So I really think that if we can do anything for our children and young people right now, it's just to get them that excitement of tapping into their why. Certainly those in years at secondary school, when you leave, what do you want your legacy to be? What do you want to accomplish in your life? And just give them that sense of purpose. So it's just a really good discussion, a fun discussion to have in small groups if not maybe in a class. And what about those kids who are a little bit further on in their school career and perhaps they're uncertain about what's going to happen about their exams or there's so many students right now who've just gone off to uni and they're having a frankly horrible time. And we know that our 16 to 25 year olds are disproportionately adversely affected by the situation right now and they're less likely to be in employment and just things that pretty bleak for them. I mean, how do we help them to connect with their why and to continue to be hopeful? Because just from where I'm standing, it's a tricky moment for them, like objectively hard. And I think that's the hardest thing certainly from our point of view is that we get to see how and that's not just as professionals for all of us but we genuinely as adults get to see how hard it is for them. And being certainly those that are uni or gone into further education, just that sense of loneliness must be really big and really scary for some of them. I just think that with regards to the kind of the here and now is that it's just having this sense of being in it together and that if they are feeling lonely and scared and not too sure if they've made the right choice or whatever it is, it's just acceptance and just knowing that actually how you're feeling is completely natural, completely natural. And to just kind of acknowledge how they're feeling, just how they're feeling is, I think sometimes it's just the biggest thing and the most important thing. And really the only thing that we can do at the moment is just listen, be there with them and acknowledge that I understand that it's tough right now and actually that you've not got it easy and I understand that. And so it sounds like maybe you're tapping into there some of the sort of distress tolerance kind of skills and that kind of thing. And is that proving helpful and what does that look like in your sessions? I think with the sessions, the hardest thing is no session at the moment is the same and talking about just going back to those that are in exams. So from the school that I'm at, we've got their GCSEs for those in year 11 and we've also got the sick format that I'm at there. They take three A levels. And the hardest thing for them is that I've personally found that we've got two ways. We are either full throttle going for it. Absolutely, every piece of work that they hand in is the most important piece, knowing that if the exams don't go ahead, then they're working each and every piece is towards that central assessed grade. And then we've got other students out there that are just so deflated, so demotivated in a sense that what's the point, what's the point? And it's so hard to try and lift them up because you can't reassure them that actually these mocks are really important because you are going to be sitting them shortly in a few weeks because they'll come back with, they might be canceled, might not be in school. So it's really tough to try and get that middle. And certainly because I deliver in exam workshops to those in year 11. So it's small groups. And normally what I'm trying to tell them is, when you drive a car, there's five gears. And actually what we need to do is, okay, we're going to need to go in a higher gear at our mocks, but then we're going to need to come back down because we don't want to burn out too soon. And we just want to sit sometimes around second, third gear and be ready to go for fifth gear when we sit our GCSEs. At the moment, way too many students are in fifth gear, just like fully going for it. And I'm just worried that they're the ones that are going to have burnout because if they do sit their GCSEs in the summer, you know, they're going to be exhausted from the work that they've been doing already. Absolutely. And that's something that we do tend to see in some of our students anyway, but you're saying you're kind of seeing more of that. And it sounds like that. It seems quite a reasonable response to the situation where they feel that every piece of work might matter. But also, I find myself wondering, could this be a case of, you know, kids in a really chaotic moment in time taking control of something? You know, how well I do my work and how I focus on it is a thing I can control in the same way that sometimes we see that come around sort of food or exercise, for example. Yeah, and there's that healthy and unhealthy ways of coping, isn't it? And I've seen an increase of self-harm, certainly for students that, so once I've seen a student obviously working at the school twice a week at this particular school, it's quite nice because I might see them around the corridors or I did have a drop-in. And that drop-in was brilliant because they might not necessarily need me for weeks or months, but they knew that I was there. So that was really lovely to have that reassurance. But the amount of students that I've kind of passed my door and they know that if my door's open, then I'm free to talk. And the amount of people that have been like, actually, Joe, can I see you? And then realising actually that they've started to kind of go again with regards to that way of coping of self-harming. So where you've got two young people who are coming to you now, saying that they're returning to these unhealthy ways of coping like self-harm, are you finding that you're able to kind of rapidly help them course correct or is it more challenging than that? For some of them, it's a lot easier this time round because there's this certain sense of why they're doing it. And when you're able to say to them that actually, you know, for some of them, one student in particular, bless her, during lock, sorry, before lockdown, she lived happily with mum and dad. Life was kind of on a sense with regards to home. Life was stable. And now, here, after lockdown, parents are splitting up, but they're still living in the same house. And I have so many young people, so many young people who have that, where they're living with both parents, but the parents are separated. So it's just trying to get across to these young people that actually there is so much about, you know, that's out of our control. And I think sometimes it can literally be, you know, a couple of sessions, just identifying what stress they have going into their stress bucket. Okay, and now let's circle what we can and we can't control. And just giving that sense of kind of understanding of actually, you know, this is why you're doing it and not to feel, you know, the shame about it. You know, that actually this is what you did and it's okay. It's okay. There's so much around self-harm that's, you know, I really feel for kids because not a lot of adults get it. And obviously as parents, you know, there's so many parents, promise me that you'll never do it again. It's hard for them. It's really, really hard. So when they've coped in the past with that, it's natural for us to see them automatically feeling or going being drawn back to that way of coping as well. And again, with eating as well, with eating, but just the way of maybe binging or making them so sick, just that control again. And I think it's quite natural, isn't it, that for any of us, whatever coping strategies we've developed, whether they're healthy or unhealthy, when we find ourselves in times of stress that they are naturally the things that we'll return to, particularly if we found them to be effective. So presumably a lot of your work then is about teaching children and young people healthier ways of managing rather than turning to those habits. So what kinds of things do you find yourself teaching young people, what do they find to be effective in place of things like self-harm or binging? I think sometimes it's about who we hang around with. So trying to get young people to realise that there's people out there that are like energy givers that make us feel good and lifted and kind of aspiring and feel good. And then we've got what we call energy vampires that just suck the life out of us and leave us feeling tired. So it's for children to become more mindful of who they're hanging around with. Social media is a big, big one of just making sure that if they're online that they're watching the right things, the right people, that they're following the right people. That compare and despair is horrible because now it's on their phone whenever they want it. So it's just trying to get children and young people to realise that they do have this sense of responsibility online in particular. And then trying to get children to realise the benefits of sometimes they're upstairs in their room too much all the time. And it's just trying to get them to go downstairs, go downstairs and maybe when you make yourself a drink maybe just stay down there for five minutes. Maybe instead of taking your dinner up to your room maybe surprise your parents, your carers and sit and have dinner with them. And just trying to get them to interact more and then about kind of just staying active and that being well, physically well. And I'm not asking them to go for runs it's just to get outside with nature, see fresh air, get fresh light and just enjoy those little things in life. Why does it make a difference spending less time in their room and being around the adults at home more? Why is that important? I think because sometimes what they're saying to me is that they feel lonely. And when you feel lonely I find that and I've had friends and even my way of coping when we first went into lockdown for certainly some of my friends was just they just went off radar literally just closed down and went in. But with the students that I work with sometimes they're the students that are saying that they're most lonely. So it's trying to get them to this sense of appreciation. Okay, who is in your life? Who do you feel that you can talk to? Okay, maybe how can we encourage you to talk to them? You know, just to have that exchange of a small conversation rather than how's your day, all right, see you later bye. And then our parents and kids that text message one another when they're up in their room. Like, how's your day and things like that? I'm like, wow, they're just, they're in the same house. They're in the same house, so yeah. And I think that's something to, you know, for parents and carers to think about as well, isn't it? About how can we kind of encourage that sense of connection at home as well? Because we can sometimes be, you know, physically present but emotionally absent. And it's hard though, and I get that because I'm a mum and I know how hard and busy life is and I get that. And I think that's the hardest thing is it's not easy. It's just not easy to try and connect with them. It's certainly if they don't want to be connected, if they don't want to connect with you. I can imagine it's really hard, especially if you're a parent that's really trying as well. I was interested in when you were talking about social media and how, you know, we can end up in this sort of cycle of compare and despair. And I think we're all well rehearsed in the arguments against some forms of social media. But I was wondering if you'd done any work with children and young people around how they can change how that makes them feel, you know, whether there are accounts, for example, that they might proactively follow that made them feel good or they got something from. I think, well, I started at the beginning of lockdown. I started a YouTube channel. Good segue there. Good segue there. Good segue, thank you. So yes, I started this YouTube channel. I don't even know how to edit. I had a college last week get in touch saying, hi, Joe, we really like your videos. We noticed that, you know, you don't know how to edit. Our sixth form students would love to take on a project and help you. Is that okay with you? And I'm like, yes, I have not got a clue what I am doing. And it all started, I suppose. I delivered a keynote speech up in Leeds in February and had some feedback afterwards. You know, you should start a YouTube channel. Felt nothing of it. Mentioned it to my sister as I was driving home. And I literally was just about to finish school and this sudden ending with certainly the year 11th and year 13th or those that are a college, just final. I really felt it. And my sister rang me up and she was just like, Joe, if you're ever gonna start it, do it now. And I started it. And I never thought it would take off as much as it has. But the reason I say about that is it's trying to get children and young people to, because the internet and social media isn't going anywhere. It's not going anywhere. And actually what we need to do as adults, as parents, professionals, carers, is we need to educate them in who they follow, what kind of accounts they have and just monitor them to make sure that the people that they are or the videos that they are watching are of information or of kind of making them laugh rather than that kind of feeling I'm not good enough or I wish I looked like that. So it's just trying to monitor what they're on. And obviously social media, there is only so much as parents that you can do with monitoring. But there are fantastic benefits of social media and just the power of the internet. We can't underestimate that it doesn't have its benefits because for one of my students that I see, she would consider her friends, her really, really good friends as what you and I would call her online friends across the world. She's never met them, she considers them as her true friends. But actually, whilst that's not great because I'd much rather her have friends in person, at the moment, due to the current situation, it's working for her. And actually, if that's bringing her comfort and a sense of purpose and having these relationships online with good people, doing great projects, campaigns, then that's good and that's healthy and that's the most important thing. So yeah. I mean, I'm a bit biased here because a lot of my greatest friends are friends that I met first online. I find it easier to build relationships online than offline and I have now got some great friends in real life but many of them started online. And I guess the difference is I'm an adult with means to travel and can then often turn these online friendships into offline ones and then they feel more real somehow. But I could easily have not done that and these would still be really important. I don't know. I think the online world has a lot to offer and particularly, I think if you either, if you find social interaction hard, so I'm autistic and I do and online is easier or if you kind of find it hard to find your tribe and I think often, so I work a lot down in Cornwall and if there are young people there who haven't necessarily been exposed to, they don't meet lots and lots and lots of different people and they might not have the same opportunity to access things like the LGBT plus community but doing it online suddenly, they can be among people who are more like them and who they don't feel alienated. Do you know what I mean? I think- Who get them and there's that sense of not feeling quite so alone, is there? Yeah, yeah. So I think it can be, it can be really, yeah, I don't know, I'm a big fan but then yeah, personally, I found it to be a really helpful and useful place. That said, I get completely the compare and despair thing and again, it's something that personally as a fully grown adult, I have to be really mindful of. I don't know if you find this as a parent and you went into lockdown and you're trying frantically to work and live and parent and everything all at once and everyone else seemed to be doing it better. It was only when I went back to school which was after my half term, so June that I actually realised how on earth, how on earth did I get through it and I don't know about you, see you've got your two girls but homeschool was an absolute nightmare, like an absolute nightmare but then what we're asking from these children is to actually your safe place that you go home and you have fun or you go and you cheer and you relax. We actually bought school into their home, into their safe place. And one of my private clients that I work with, she is at a college, she's studying three A levels. The campus is so small, yet there's so many students that actually she's only going back two days a week out of five. And it's trying to understand that having to stay at home and motivate herself on those three days where she's at home with the same amount of work coming in is just so hard for some of our kids, so hard for some of them. Well, and likewise we've then got kids who've gone off to university who've not yet met their course leaders or their peers and they've paid huge amounts of money as well and I think that's not insignificant. If you've paid a 9,000 pound bill and you're sitting in a room somewhere that's probably dingy and not as nice as at home even and yeah, you're not accessing the things you talk to. I think it is a challenge, isn't it? So I'm interested to learn a little bit more. I say this, I've watched quite a lot of your YouTube videos, but people listening might not have. So tell us a bit more about your YouTube channel and how you're trying to help with that and what has landed well and yeah, your kind of aims and aspirations for it. So I just found that on the internet that we had certainly on YouTube, I know from Charlie, he just watched, you know, you can click on one thing to another and there's just so much to, like absolute to. And obviously with children and young people, there's so many challenges that they face and whenever I deliver my training, I always say, you know, that we've all been 16, but have you ever been 16 years old in 2020? No, so we don't know how important their phone is. Like, you know, you and I can maybe spend a day without it, but you know, for kids it's their everything. So I just wanted to reach out to more kids certainly during lockdown because I knew that my kids that I was working with that had obviously then gone over to on the phone counseling was really struggling. So, and then it just got to a point where I now have teachers and parents that email me asking me to do kind of, could you consider doing a video on exam stress? So it's just trying to be the voice of trying to help kids become aware of actually, are you addicted to social media? Okay, if so, yes, let's do something about it. You know, there's so many adults on the internet and on YouTube or, you know, ticked, I'm not very great with social media rather than LinkedIn and YouTube now, but literally there's so many people out there to help others. But I just, and I've only found one lady, but even her video, she's out in America, even her videos for adults as well, I just wanted there to be this safe place for children and young people to go to that would be agreed by their teachers, agreed by senior leadership, agreed by their parents and carers and a safe channel that they could then, you know, have you lost somebody close to you? You know, how to be a good friend, you know, how to be a good listener, what to do if you're having a panic attack, exam stress, just all these different topics. But in a way that parents are kind of knowing that there isn't gonna be any swearing that it's safe and that actually it's just somebody trying her hardest during this time of uncertainty because I'm not too sure where it's going and it's, since we went back to school, it is hard to try and do a weekly video, but it's just for now, whilst there's so much uncertainty, just giving those kids what they need, but I can't be like, yeah, I'm just surprised because it's just me in front of a camera talking. Yeah, but I love it, I love it. And have you found that the children that you work with face-to-face are also accessing those videos or who's watching them? Yeah. So I think that's the most fun thing and sometimes the most embarrassing because when it's fine, when it's strangers, like I had a student from, where was it? New Zealand a couple of weeks ago, hi, I just want to say I really love your videos. That's fine, I can deal with that. But when it's people that know me and certainly those school kids that have had a session with me, you know, letting them listen to my telephone voice on a YouTube video just is completely different, I imagine, but equally they are, Joe, I saw your latest video, you need to say like and subscribe within the first 10 seconds, I'm not saying it. Oh. No, but I don't like saying that bit. No, I never say that bit, I have to say I'm rubbish at that. No, and they always want to know how many subscribers I've got, you know, how many subscribers have you got? And I won't tell them because I don't even know how to look at the analytics if I'm honest with you. But yeah, it's just, I enjoy it and when you do get these comments, I remember when I first started getting an email from somebody out in America and this parent just saying, you know, thank you, you know, it's good to have a trusted, reliable source. I just remember reading it and crying and just like, wow, like, wow. Lovely, I think that's one of the things about this kind of content. So my kids are obsessed as well about how many likes and subscribes and that sort of thing and how many views. But actually, for me, it's about a lot more than that because it's about the impact of each of those views. So, you know, my kids will habitually watch YouTube channels or people who've got literally millions of subscribers, but I've watched some of those videos with them and whilst they enjoy them, I don't think they change how they feel. Whereas I think sometimes, you know, you can make a video and it might only be watched by 50 people, but if for one of them, it meant that they felt differently that day or they did something differently as a result then that's really, you know, really high impact, isn't it? Yeah, and I think I spoke to somebody the other day who was on YouTube that wants to do a collaboration. That always makes me feel really good when they're like, oh, you really like to collaborate with you. I'm like, really? But I think that's the thing is that, you know, this lad said to me, you know, how long does it take for you to do your filming and your editing and everything? And I said to him, I was like, so we've got the smallest house and literally I only have in the mornings, like literally an hour on a Sunday to try and do three videos. That's it. That's it. And then because I don't know how to edit, I just upload it. So that's why just for your listeners, if they do watch it, my pronunciation isn't always the best. We have a train that goes past, which is quite funny because I haven't got time to press stop and to go again and actually this is how it is. Um, yes. So he spends seven hours recording, editing, uploading, doing the blurb. And I have not got that. I don't know about you, Pika. I'm pretty sure you haven't. Seven hours to do that. No, no. No, but then I guess also it's actually a thing that's being done in addition to everything else, whereas for many YouTubers, it's the source of income, their job, their life. Yeah. So it's a bit of a different, I have to say though, one thing I have found is, as I've learned more about it, how it's not a small job. So one of the things I took on over lockdown was working with our local church. So I sing in the choir and I've worked with the priests to create the online services throughout lockdown. So we were doing prayers every day and then communion once a week. And I've continued to record communion live now that we're back at church and kind of editing and uploading that. And even though it's a very, you know, I do a very minor edit. It's not, I think people think that it's really, really easy, but it's actually quite hard, isn't it? I think that's why I don't want to start doing it because obviously you can learn and I'm always up for learning. And there's these how-to videos and there's software that you can buy, but I just, I don't wanna start. And also for me, I think that if I did start, then it means it's actually something serious. When at the moment I work full-time, I run my own business, my little business flourish and it's just a hobby. And it genuinely is a hobby that actually if I was to buy the software or learn how to do editing, then for me it's almost making it into something that I'm not quite ready for. Yeah, and I think there's also something about just being yourself and being kind of raw and real. And certainly it's something I checked in with myself on a few months ago when I made a video for my YouTube channel around perfectionism and good enough being good enough and how actually I had gotten to a point where I would take multiple takes and I just thought, do you know what? Good enough is good enough. And you know, if I were on a stage, which I often am, you don't get a second take then. And you just do carry on. And I have moments, I don't know if you find this, but I have moments where I will be on stage and that's my happy place and my confident place. But still every now and then everything goes and I've got, it's just gone. And you just, you know, you take a breath, don't you? And you start again and yeah. I did a webinar yesterday to teachers. So it was with a company that have schools worldwide. So we had two webinars, 600, so fully booked with 600 each. And sometimes it is this, you're prepared and you're organized and you get your room set up, you get your photos taken down. But actually there is just part of you that has to just live in the moment and just go with it and just enjoy it. And I think, and I know that you love your job as much as I love my job as well. That actually I think that is what we have to do is embrace it knowing that actually whatever we do is good enough. And that hopefully we are supporting those children and young people or supporting those teachers and pastoral staff, social workers to help those precious kids and young people that all need the support. Even if they're the strongest of kids they still need the support. I do and I think that's the other thing is that when you keep it real and you help people realize that you're sometimes muddling through because we all are, that it helps them to realize they can do this too. I think it can be quite empowering for people. Yeah, because I think we are all learning all the time and this has been one of the most difficult things for me about this moment right now is that people look to me for answers and all I've really got is a bunch of questions because we don't know, do we? We don't know what's gonna happen next. Right, and I think that's the hardest thing is certainly for me as a counselor that the hardest thing going back to school in September was as a professional trying to, we're quite good teachers, social workers, counselors, we're very good at kind of almost compartmentalizing whatever's going on in our life. So if we've gone through a bereavement, okay, let's just put this and I genuinely imagine a chest of drawers just gonna go in that drawer right now not slamming it shut but I'm just gonna push you to and I'm just gonna get on with my session and I'll deal with you after. So we're very good at that as professionals but actually what I found the hardest and then even now it can still be a struggle is sitting with somebody that is worried about the coronavirus and is worried about this pandemic and for me, I'm like, that's in my drawer. It's my drawer. And then it's like, oh gosh. And I think that's really hard just trying to contain our own anxieties in a sense of whilst we're professionally working and it's tough, I've found it tough. I had an epic failure on that front earlier on in lockdown where a parent asked a question at the end of a conference of me and she was saying that she had an adolescent autistic son whose fear of the world and the virus have become such that he literally wouldn't leave the house and what would I recommend? And my response was basically, why would you leave the house? It's so unsafe outside. I don't know why. Yes. And I was in exactly the same boat and I was able then to kind of pull it back and give some advice but I was there with the son. I would have just stayed home for a bit longer. And I'm thinking away. That was what was so lovely about the first lockdown. For me personally, was I was safe. I was at home. The sun was shining and I do think that there was this sense of having an early summer. For me, my husband was furloughed so for 20% less pay, we got 75 days together. And obviously, we'll never get that. 75 days where he's paid to be at home. Like, it was just brilliant. But this time round, and I think like you said at the beginning, we just don't know how long it's gonna last for. And I don't know when there's gonna be the kind of this new normality but then I think about the kids. And I genuinely, I'll never forget, it was the first of May, 2020. I had a crap day with my own mental health. It was horrible. I was crying. I remember sobbing and Phil walked in and he was like, what is the matter? Like, what's the matter? Like, who's died? And I was just like, oh my gosh, like the kids out there, you know, this is gonna have such a big effect and it was just really in a bad place for that day. But it's just having to allow yourself to have those days is the biggest thing. And to know that we're not gonna always have all of the answers and we can't always be strong. You can try, but it's not always gonna be possible. And if it's not possible, then that's okay. It's the hardest thing, but it is just taking it day at a time. I think just being in the winter now, I think that's having a big difference. And also there's so much, and I'm not getting into the politics, but there's so much disagreements, protests about the whole pandemic and how it should be dealt with with adults. I kind of think to myself, the poor kids that are picking up on this, certainly secondary school, you know, that's not fair. And we're asking them to wear face coverings and there's people protesting saying that they're not gonna be wearing face coverings and made to do what they need to do. And it's like, we're not exactly all setting a best situation for our kids to be growing up in calm. But yeah, I'm gonna stop on that bit because it's hard because I just wish that we could, the kids could just see us, I don't know. It's just hard for us adults. So it's even harder for them because obviously we know that what we project is what they pick up. And that must be hard for them. I think, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it is difficult because we look around us and it doesn't feel necessarily like we're, yeah, as a adult society role modeling what we would hope to perhaps, but, you know, things will change. It is what it is, is what I say. And it's not gonna last forever. And we got through the First World War, the Second World War, the Spanish flu. We'll get through this and just trying to tell the kids and when I deliver the clinical supervision that the sky hasn't fallen. The world hasn't ended. And we're in this together. You're not on your own. We are in this together. When I went traveling, there was in Thailand, they have this saying, or they did, God, 15 years ago. Same, same, but different. And this experience of lockdown, of the pandemic, it's same, same for everybody, but it's very, very different for each and every one of us. But that same, same of being in this situation is something that we can unite us and unite children and young people as well. And what thought would you like to leave people with? How would you like to end today? So I believe that as adults, parents, carers, but more so professionals, that sometimes we underestimate the power that we have and how we can influence children and young people. And I get a lot of people say to me that need, feel as if they need training to become an expert on mental health. Teachers that don't feel as if they're qualified enough. And I might get that. But actually, you are, you are. All you need to do is just offer this sense of professional love. Just be there for your school kids or for those children and young people that you work with. Just be there, just provide that safe space, safe place. Let them be heard. Show them that you're listening. Show them that they matter. Enjoy their excitement with their future. And just realize that every, there's this quote, every interactions and intervention. And just never underestimate the power of what you, your work is and what you can do as a professional because you're fantastic doing what you're doing.