 Hi everybody, and welcome back to our podcast from the Kama Sutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. So unfortunately, once again, we don't have Dr. Anvita Madanbehel with us today due to medical reasons, but we have in her stead the fabulous Nina Claire. And I am absolutely delighted to welcome Nina. Nina is a well-being crusader. And in a previous of Tar, Nina used to have the editorial team for the well-being magazine at BW Business World, but she's shifted her focus since then. She's now looking at psychosexual dynamics in connection with mental health. And today she brings her perspective to the advice that the Kama Sutra has to give. Welcome, Nina. Thank you so much for the introduction Seema and thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm very grateful to Anvita for connecting us. Well, it's a delight to have you because as you know that this is a platform where we try and respond to all the questions and the messages that we get around sex and sexuality because people have very few other places that they can go to for advice, for good advice anyway. And today we've got you on here because we really want your advice on a particular issue which I've been getting a lot of emails about and we haven't had a chance to address it yet. And that is that, you know, when you look at sex and everybody says or sex is a taboo subject, we found that within that arena of taboo, there are some things that are higher up on the list of taboo. And I think the top most taboo is women and pleasure, particularly as women get older. So we've been getting a lot of emails from people like women who are in their 40s particularly, you know, once you have a child, then you're just supposed to not be a sexual being anymore because it's like, you've got a child and you've got a teenage child and how can you be thinking about sex? Or women who have been in a marriage for a while and their husband is really, really bad in bed but they're never supposed to want anything different. It's always like, well, he's a very good man otherwise. So you don't dishonor him by saying that, you know, that the sexual side of things is not satisfactory. You're not supposed to want it. And when you become single, it's like, that's it. If you're 40 and single, you're not supposed to be a sexual being altogether. And actually you have a great term that you coined for that particular situation, don't you? Tell our audience it because I love that. So I coined the term recycled virgin and I kind of realized, you know, when I got divorced when I came back to India that when you're single, you're supposed to be absolutely virginal. When you get married, you're supposed to be a goddess in bed and then when you get divorced and you're single all over again, you're supposed to be a recycled virgin all over again. All over again. So that's what, and that's where the taboo really comes in, right? Because you're expected to have zero desire, which is bullshit because actually what happens is that when you're, we're talking about our forties essentially, right? That when you're in your forties, you're peaking and your desires are at their all time high and most likely you've been able to discover what you like and what you don't like. Yes, you're so right. Forties is when women really come into themselves and this is where judgment really starts to pile on on them. Sorry, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry if the light on me is changing drastically but as many of you know, I am in the UK and we are having a particularly cold and gray and awful winter and today just as I managed to sit by the main French windows by my garden, the sun has come out and all its glory and it's blinding me. So if you think that the light is looking weird, please excuse me for this. Nina of course is in fabulous cassoli at the moment. Nina, are you all sunny and bright and beautiful over there? It's been a bit of a tease today. The sun's been playing hide and seek coming and going but it's a glorious day over here today. Well, okay. So it looks like it might be a cold and sunny day over here. So I'm sorry. I'm sure it'll go behind the cloud any minute. So I'll just carry on. Nina, actually this is what I want to talk to you about today. Women in their 40s and how to deal with their sexuality and all the other problems that are starting to come up around it because it almost seems like they're trapped in a situation and they don't know what to do. It's almost like you have to kill yourself off sexually to be able to conform to the rules of society. Now you said you mentioned that you are single, that you've been through a divorce recently, is it? No, no, it's been many years, it's been many years. Okay, so I guess what I want you to start with is let's begin with the idea that you're still in a marriage and the sex is really, really bad. And your husband is an uninspiring sexual partner and you really would like better satisfaction. What do you recommend for women to do? I mean, a lot of them just go very silent but it's obviously playing on their minds. Absolutely, I've given this topic a lot of thought and what I've realized is over the years of observing people and having conversations and interviewing people is that it's not so much the what, it's the why. Why are we in this situation? And I think that we as women come from a position of being sexually repressed in society, right? And we're not really wired to communicate our desires, to express our desires. And I think if one takes a step back a little bit it's not even about expressing because so many times you don't even know what you want. So one of the things that I did when I came back to India because my background is in psychology and I'm a complete therapy junkie, I went into therapy and I tried to find myself, to discover myself. And one of the things that worked for me beautifully was that I did an exercise of listing down what my wants were in life, what I wanted. And I realized Seema that once my thoughts became clear about my wants, it wasn't so easy even to communicate them. So then you start with the smaller things that Seema if I were to ask somebody that I want a particular act in bed, I don't even know how to verbalize that. So started even the most inane things, the small things to learn to express oneself. So when somebody I feel is caught in a union whether or not getting what they want my first and foremost recommendation always is marital therapy, counseling therapy and without generalizing Seema, more often than not I've seen that men are not really up for therapy. Is that what you've observed as well? Yeah, unfortunately, there is this thing about it's almost like an espersh on the masculine. Most of them won't accept that it could be a two-way problem. Yes, so what I realized also is over the years that it's a function of your very being because your sexual life is a representation of your very being. So evaluate what's happening with you. I think that's where it really begins. And if your partners who need to go for therapy, you yourself go for therapy. And many people say they can't afford therapies then I say work on yourself, evaluate really connect with yourself. And the more you become in connection with yourself is when you realize what your desires are. So Seema, if I'm an aggressive person personally when I'm in bed and it's more likely that I'll be aggressive in bed as well. And if I don't have the vocabulary or the confidence to communicate in my day-to-day life, I'm barely going to have the confidence to communicate that in bed either. So I think it's a lot of introspection, evaluation, talk therapy, writing helps a lot is what I feel. And worst case scenario Seema, I mean, I don't like to stand on moral ground. So worst case scenario, if it isn't working then look at maybe opening up your marriage. And if that isn't an option, then maybe step out of the union because sex is a very important part of one's life and well-being actually. I agree with you. And I think actually this point that you made about seeking therapy, even if your partner won't agree to it. And if you feel you can't afford it or you can't go to it without more judgment being put on you, there's a lot of online courses and therapy sessions that you can attend for free, aren't there? Absolutely. In fact, today I received an entire database of 60 places where you can get free therapy. I was so impressed. Good morning. That's amazing. That is really fantastic. One of the other things that's been coming up in these emails is a lot of women saying that because they have young children or teenage children that it's almost like, how can you even be thinking about sex? You've got grown up children. What will they think? You know, I think it's rather unfair but that's actually the reality. But I mean, logically speaking, your desire doesn't die because you're a mother. Your desire doesn't die because you're single. It still exists. So I think it's very important to assert oneself. Even if you're a single mother, even if you're single in your 40s, it's okay to have desire. It's part and parcel of who you are. And I think, you know, you can't look at yourself. Sorry, Sima. I mean, I have to make this point that it's really important that you don't look at yourself in a unilateral sort of way. There's so many facets to your being. So while you're a mother, doesn't mean you can't be a porn star. Doesn't mean that you can't be a sex goddess. Doesn't mean that you can't be like a CEO of a company. You can be all of that together. They're all parts of your being. Yeah, absolutely. But I was also going to say that if you at that point decide to repress it, I mean, nobody's saying that you should go out and shout about it to your children or shout about it to the world. But if you repress yourself completely, I'm sure that impacts the psyche of your child as well. And then we're just perpetuating the narrative. Absolutely, because then what I'm telling my child is that Mama only has this facet of her personality. Mama works and Mama's a Mama and Mama's, you know, Nani Nanu's daughter and P2 sister, but that's not true. Mama's a woman. Mama has desires. Mama has wants. And your wants should be fulfilled. And that is actually a conversation I've had with my daughter quite recently. She's 13 now. And I'm actually not allowed to talk about her because, you know, it's not, there's no consent over here, but I can definitely divulge this much that she's understood the fact that Mama is a woman. And that's happened very recently actually. So... Well, talking about consent, actually that brings me to the next thing quite organically. Consent is a huge issue when it comes to, I find women as they get older in their sexual relationships. So if you are in a relationship, if you're in a marriage where the sexual side of things is not great, women tend to get bored, they will back off, they'll find other things to do. And then this idea of consent becomes a little bit of an issue. Do you think? You know, I've really observed this, you know, Seema and shockingly, not only in people who are in their 40s, 50s or 60s when they're talking about being in unions where they're not comfortable and they're not being asked what they really want, but even in my friends who are in their 20s and 30s, that they don't know that it's okay to say no because we're brought up even the youngsters to be people pleasers to a large extent. So we're not educated. So yes, I'm very happy. I've been observing for years now that, you know, in schools one talks about good touch and bad touch, right? Where it's all over the place, at least in private schools that I see. But no one teaches you about consent. No one teaches you about the importance of being able to say no. Yes, say no to a bad touch, but if you're with somebody, it's like, no, you know, that person might feel bad. And I've had friends who in their first experience of sex, it hasn't been good and they said no and their partners have just plowed through. I think it's so awful. You're so right. I was just going to say that funnily enough, you know, in the Kamasutra, now people think that this is a book written 2000 years ago. It actually says that on the very first time that you're with a woman, you do not actually have sex. You wait either three days, six days or nine days before depending on the kind of person she is. Yeah, before you have sex and you actually bring her to that point emotionally, you excite her desires by a lot of other things so that she wants it in the end. And yeah, you don't plow through, but we do have this terrible sort of idea that if you are married, the moment you become Mrs. So-and-so, you no longer have the right to say no. You know, Seema, I actually have a friend who's in her 40s and she has an open marriage and switch me, she has multiple partners. So she's open to that extent. But quite recently, what happened with her was that she was having sex with somebody who she's recently met. And without her permission, he inserted her finger into her anus. And she said, oh my God, Ninda, I felt so violated. Just because I'm open and I haven't opened marriage doesn't mean that I'm open to everything. He should have at least asked me. And this is an emancipated woman who's traveled the world, who's educated, who's confident. And she had a problem saying no. You know? Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it really is an issue. I mean, I find that, and these things are so subtle that a lot of times when they're said in company, in groups or at a party or in a discussion between friends, a lot of people will either laugh it off or make a joke of it. And I think that it's so important because people are reaching out at that point. They've got this problem and it is something that's bothering them. So I think it's really fantastic that we've been able to address it today. And Seema, you know, I'd like to add to that. I feel it has to be a multi-pronged approach. So we're talking about, you know, how education is important. And that's how the narrative actually changes. You know, you and I are hardly going to change. We're going to probably, you know, include things in our repertoire, but the actual script changes when you talk about education, right? So education, not only at school, not only in college, but even your gynecologists. And if somebody reaches out to you and tells you that they have a problem, as a support system, family and friends should be educated about being supportive and that there are actual places where you can go for redressal. There are cells where you can go and get support if something's done to you against your consent. I'm talking in extreme situations. So if you're in a marriage and you go, you know, and your spouse has abused you or you're in a domestic relationship with somebody and you've been abused, you can actually go and seek help with the domestic violence wing, you know. I think that's a really good thing to know. And are these also like free cells and things where you can go? Absolutely, absolutely. So when I came back to India, I had had a, you know, my divorce was very nasty and I went to the domestic violence, you know, wing and the thing was, there was no physical violence. There was a lot of emotional violence and a lot of other stuff that had happened. And I thanked God a million times Seema when I went there because there were women and I'm not exaggerating. Women walking with their legs apart because they had been so brutally mutilated. But yes, it's a little difficult. I mean, it's the domestic violence wing. It's supposed to be, you know, a wing where anybody and everybody can go, but even to get entry sometimes is a problem. You have to prove that you've been back in the country. Oh God, yeah. I tell you what we can do is that when we finish, when we actually put this episode up, we will put down some of the links to these places that you mentioned in the description. So maybe that would be useful for people. Okay, one of the other questions that's been coming up a lot, and this is really interesting as far as I'm concerned, that the guilt that is attached to wanting your sexual desires to be fulfilled and not just simple straightforward or I feel guilty because we are supposed to be good girls and good girls don't want this. But these are women now in their 40s, they're emancipated. Many of them are single women in relationships and so on. And yet this point of guilt is still coming through to the point where I've been receiving, you wouldn't believe how many emails from people saying that, you know, I'm fine with it. I'm a sexual being, I have a great partner, but my family is very conservative and now I'm starting to feel guilty about having sex on certain days. So if I've been to the temple in the morning, is it okay to have sex at night? Or if it is a particular festival or a fast, can I have sex on that particular day? And I'm actually blown away by this question because I've been trying to say to people, this is not a bad thing. It's not a sin. Why feel guilty? But this guilt is actually multiplying. Yeah, you know, if we go by our calendar, Seema, I think we're never going to have sex. But yeah, yeah. We have a festival on every day. Every day. But jokes aside, I think, you know, when there's a topic that's associated with morality, the higher the morality attached to a topic, the more the guilt that is attached to a topic. And when we come to religion, I think there's no logic. But I mean, I would invite whoever is writing into you to consider a modicum of practicality. That if you're engaging in sex, it's an act of love or passion or whatever it is. So consider the fact that there's nothing wrong with it. First of all, and secondly, an element of self forgiveness. I think we're so unforgiving of ourselves, you know? And I feel that, and thirdly, if you really feel guilty about it, don't do it on those days then, right? And I have to share, you know, when you started off by this whole like bad girl thing, that I mean, I love to party, I love hanging out with my friends, and although I can't handle alcohol much anymore, there have been days where I've been shitfaced surely, I've been walking the streets of New York, I've gone to crazy swingers clubs with my best friends and, you know, seen all the sexual acts possible, and stared and gawked and been like, and my friends been like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm walking back at six, o'clock in the morning and I'm got my heels in my hand and I'm stuffing my face with a pizza slice and then I reach home and then I'm like, I will not be forgiven. I've sinned and it's happened to me that I've bathed and bathed and bathed and then I realized, okay, because I'm under the influence of alcohol, I'm feeling really guilty still. Wake up in the morning and the handover makes you feel horrible, but then I allow logic to sink in because guilt increases your anxiety, it affects your mental health. And then I'm like, so what you clubbed last night, so what you went into this crazy shit in front of you, it's okay. So that self forgiveness, I think is really important. And believe me, God forgives everything. God loves everybody just the way they are. So self forgiveness and a modicum of practicality, I would say. I think that's extremely good advice. I couldn't have said it better myself. Self forgiveness and a modicum of practicality and just logic and to stop the guilt. I think if everybody from this particular episode takes even that one thing away with them, I'll be delighted because that is certainly the best advice that I have heard so far on this subject. Okay, now there's something else that comes to mind. A lot of people go on and on. Like I said, you know, when we started off about how bad it is, make you feel guilty, make you feel judged. And a lot of women out of sheer frustration will go towards celibacy. What do you have to say about that? I know we talked about celibacy. Yeah, so I actually had a relationship with a narcissistic asshole. If I'm allowed to say that. And so what happened was that, yeah, so my mental health suffered tremendously. I almost had like a nervous breakdown and not of my own doing, but one of my closest friends said, Nina, please make a vow of celibacy. And I hated her in that moment because she was weeping. Her father had just died and she said, I'm fed up of cleaning up your shit, Nina. Can you just refrain? And I think the thing is when you end a relationship and it's a nasty relationship, it's so easy because you're damaged. It's so easy to go on a rampage, you know, in terms of rebound sex and rebound relationships. But that ends up being so much more damaging is what I found. So what I did do was I made that vow, Seema. I made that vow. And as weeks turned into months, I realized that more than a physical and sexual detox, it was a mental detox because it allowed me the power of discernment. So if I met somebody, you know, all right. But then you realize, oh my God, just so-and-so is good looking, but there's no real substance to this person. So it allows you this power of discernment and mental detox. So I recommend it to anybody, especially if you've broken up, especially if you're going through a trying time, it's wonderful to try celibacy. That's really good advice. We get a lot of people on both sides of the spectrum saying, is this good or is this not good? And a lot of people in recent times, particularly the younger age group and amongst men in particular, have been talking about this no-fap movement, you know, this thing of don't masturbate, be completely celibate and so on. But I think that the way that you've just put it really puts it into perspective. I like what you've said, that it's not about taking a vow of celibacy to do away with your sexual desires, which is what most people think it is, but to actually use celibacy just for a brief while, for a contained amount of time, to detox so that you can get better discernment, so that you can actually see things more clearly. You know, I don't know if you know Sarvesh Shashi, the guy who's the founder of Sarvayoga. So he's one of these startup guys and he's doing very, very well. He's partnered with Malayka Arora and I'm so bad with these names, Malayka Arora and her sister, whoever these actors are. So he talks a lot about no-fapping and especially for men, that it's supposed to sort of, you know, bring up your spiritual powers and your intellectual powers. I don't know about that, but I think that if you're being celibate, I think self-pleasure should not be ruled out because it's a wonderful benign tool for you. It doesn't take away problems, but at least it empowers you to not feel that sense of victimhood that comes with, oh, I'm single, I can't be satisfied. Hell no, you're single doesn't mean you can't be satisfied, doesn't mean you can't have pleasure. So that benign tool that you have of self-pleasure, use it till that kingdom come, is what my advice would be to everybody. Nenna, that's been a really enlightening conversation and thank you so much for your openness in suggesting and talking about things. And I think, I mean, I certainly have got a lot out of it, so I'm hoping that everybody out there listening to us today will feel the same way. But just before we wrap up this conversation, there's a couple of things that I'd like to get your advice on for our listeners. So women in their 40s, single again, once again looking for relationships, once again being out there in the world, the dating scene has changed drastically. I mean, I find some of the terminology absolutely alien to me and I am in the field of talking about sex and sexuality. So what I'd like you to talk about is just very briefly address the idea of polyamory, which is suddenly really in fashion at the moment. Then this thing about sexting, because sexting is not as simple and straightforward as just having sex on messages or sending graphic messages to each other. There's a whole different vocabulary around it. And there's a whole set of rules that have built up around it. Like you were telling me about something called ghosting. So if you could explain some of that for some of our, maybe not for the younger audiences who are listening to us, but certainly for a lot of the others, certainly for a lot of the others who wouldn't know about this. You know, so I've always heard about the word open marriages, but now what I've been seeing off late the last year or two is a lot of conversation around polyamory. And what that essentially means is that you're open to having multiple partners. You might have one person who you're anchored with, but then you're allowed to experiment. And there are many rules in place where if you're sleeping with somebody else, you have to inform your partner, there has to be a huge amount of disclosure is what one of the basis of polyamory is. And a lot of trust, a lot of exchanges, a lot of confidence in your primary relationship. So it's not about cheating on the other person but actually doing it with consent. With consent, openly saying, listen, I'm going out today with so-and-so, there can't be secrecy in it. There can't be secrecy because in the person who you're in a primary relationship in will be uncomfortable. But I have to say, you know, my personal take on this and my sort of opinion on this is that I feel that monogamy in the first place, monogamous relationships in the first place are difficult enough to deal with in terms of its work, right? And there's so many dynamics. So when you bring somebody else into the equation or many other people, I don't know for the life of me how the dynamics work because there's so many tangential sort of, you know, dynamics and conversations happening. But having said that, I mean, I'm noticing a lot of young people not only openly talking about it but even putting it in their bios on Instagram. So saying I'm poly, I'm queer, I'm bi and I think that's really brave. And I'd love to learn a little bit more about it and I'm open to my opinion being changed but so far, anybody I've seen in a poly relationship and without being judgmental, I feel it comes from a place of confusion because you're not sure about what you want because human beings, some people might say that you're born monogamous, that human beings are not supposed to be monogamous but I feel that we're territorial. I'm not okay with sharing my friends half the time. How can you be okay sharing somebody that you're not being intimate with? So that's polyamory in my opinion but I think it sounds very sex-citing but again, I feel like a really bad girl if I did it. And then sexting, Babaji will not forgive me but sexting I think is a wonderful tool and I advise everybody to do it because there's a whole amount of playfulness, there's a whole amount of fantasy playing that can happen that you start dropping messages in the morning, hinting to your partner, even if you're at home, it's locked down, drop a message. I wanna do this to you. I want to do that in the afternoon or just dropping hints here and there and you have this sort of psychological advantage of being behind the phone. So you can say so much more and but I think safety is really important. There's a lot of cyber crime that happens out there. So no distinguishable marks should be there in the photographs or videos that you exchange. Your face shouldn't be there and consent again, you don't want anybody sending you new deeds without permission. So please don't go around sending new deeds without asking and you said about ghosting, right? So yeah, I was just gonna say that this idea of sending little messages is as old as time itself. So that's sent in the morning to prepare for the sexual act at night or even to sort of keep the excitement alive for a week ahead is something that they did in the time of the Kamasutra. They just didn't have phones in those days but they sent little other types of messages. So yeah, yeah. So, you know, for instance, this whole idea of cinnamon, if you sent a little pouch of cinnamon, it had a particular message with it. It had a sexual message as a pouch of almonds had a whole different type of message to go with it. A piece of jewelry had a whole different, different type of manicure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we always advise people from the Kamasutra that if you get a manicure done, because love scratches were a very important part of your food play. You send your partner a photo of your new manicure. It's very exciting and tells them that you're thinking about them in a very exciting way. Wow, wow. Yeah, and it's safe as well. It's not traffic. Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, wow. Okay. But you were telling me about ghosting. Yes, I have to confess, I'm guilty of it also. I think it comes from the, from two places. I think it comes from the problem of plenty and it comes from the problem of having difficulty, having difficult conversations. So there's so many options out there, right? When you're talking about the dating world. Tuck, tuck, tuck, tuck, swipe right, swipe left. I can block you. I can delete you immediately, you know. So the problem of plenty, you don't want to have difficult conversations. So you know what? If you don't fall in line with what I want or what I feel that I desire, then move over. So it's very unfair actually when we end up doing that to people and what actually ends up happening to the person that you ghost is that they end up feeling that there's something wrong with them. So what I really want to advise people who are at the receiving end is, it's nothing to do with you. It's to do with the person who ghosted you because they have the inability to have difficult conversations. Or even to commit, I guess. To commit, absolutely, absolutely. That's interesting. So ghosting is where you just block the other person after having had a few conversations and you think. Yes, so you block them or you stop responding and yeah, and it's very painful. It's very painful because you get no closure really. Oh wow, okay. Well, thank you for explaining the ghosting to me. And in closing, if you have to give three bits of advice to our listeners out there of how to just maintain their balance, how to look after themselves, what would you say? Seema, did you realize that my new platform is called Pursuit of Balance? That's so cool. I like the name Pursuit of Balance. Because I don't think we're ever completely balanced so we're always in the pursuit. So my advice to people would be love yourself, invest in yourself, be kind to yourself and to everybody around you as much as possible. Invest in your support systems judiciously because that's what you're gonna fall back on eventually. Take care of your mental health because that's all you have really in terms of your sanity. And the most important I think is know when to walk away because that's respecting yourself and respecting your dignity. And I think that's extremely good advice. Thank you for that. And just one other thing that you mentioned earlier which really, really struck a chord with me and I'd like to repeat that in closing. And that is, as Nina says, use the platforms of therapy that are available to you. So if you feel you cannot afford therapy, there are free places that you can go to. We have listed some of these links down in the description. Take a look at them, use them. A lot of people have been judgy about therapy. It's like, oh, there's must be something wrong with you. What is this nonsense about therapy? It's not. It's about your well-being. It's about you feeling good about yourself. So use the platforms of therapy. The other thing that Nina mentioned was about using celibacy for detoxing yourself. I know that a lot of people out there are talking about celibacy and anophap and so on in many, many different aspects of it and many different platforms. But I love the idea of just using it as a detox tool. It's an amazing thing to try. It gives you more discernment. It gives you more perspective. Do it just for that. Do it for yourself. And on that amazing note, Nina, I want to say once again, thank you so much for being with us. We are really, really honored to have had you on the platform with us and we think that people are going to get a lot out of this conversation. Thank you so much for having me, Seema. I'm honored to be here, to be honest. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed myself. So as always, do comment, like, subscribe. Your questions should be addressed to info.seema.anand at gmail.com. If you need to get in touch with Dr. Anvita Madan-Behel, she is on anvitamadan-behel.com. And if you wish to reach out to Nina Clair for her advice and guidance, you will find her on Instagram, on Nina Clair, but spelled N-I-N-A-K-L-E-R. With that, have a wonderful week. We'll see you here next week.