 Live from San Francisco, extracting the signal from the noise, it's the Cube, covering Oracle Open World 2015. Brought to you by Oracle. Now your hosts, John Furrier and Brian Grace Lee. Okay, welcome back everyone. We are live in San Francisco. This is SiliconANGLE's theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, showing my co-host Brian Grace Lee. He's our analyst at Wikibon.com, and our next guest is James, governor, principal analyst, and co-founder of RedBunk, another analyst firm. Great to have the analyst segment here. James, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. Thank you much. It's good to be here. Open Source, a big part of Oracle's program. Obviously Java won yesterday. 20 years Java, man. Makes me feel a little bit old, but Oracle really putting out that we're open. We're not just the red sack anymore. So, is it reality? I mean, are they truly open? And what's your take on this inter-cloud being open kind of thing? You know, I think we're living in a world where they're saying, look, this is a portable platform, so they have to have a story about openness. We've seen the same kinds of things from the likes of IBM. But, you know, if we look at the facts, the simple fact is that Oracle has had some issues in dealing with open source communities. You know, whether it was the schism around Hudson and Jenkins and others, it's kind of challenging for Oracle. They're kind of trying to inch towards, I think as they get more developer savvy, that there's something at work there. They're certainly trying to indicate this openness. We might see them playing more nicely with other children, but I wouldn't really say there are an open source Leviathan at this point. We were saying with previous guests on about open standards and all this stuff. We're saying, look, Oracle has a good position, certainly with the cloud, the muscle that they have. They fortified a good base, they got a great install base, the numbers are working with the cloud. But to really win cloud, to be one of the top three players, they got to go beyond the red stack. Okay, that means they have to be more developer friendly, as you say. What do they need to do, in your opinion, to be developer friendly? Well, that has to be a change in mindset. I mean, I thought it was interesting this morning in the keynote. I mean, we had Mark Hurd talking to one of his customers, saying, you know, really, oh, it's all about the applications you buy. And the customer turns around this AIG and they're actually, you know, it's actually about being able to develop faster. So, if they want to get beyond a world of selling SaaS and selling SaaS applications into platform extensions, into infrastructure as a service, then they're certainly going to have to rethink their approach to working with developers. How do you guys at Redmonk look at the segmentation between the developers? I mean, obviously in the DevOps side, it's pretty straightforward. You know, full stack developers, you know, Dave and I always joke on the cube. You know, they eat class, they spit nails, full stack developers. You get in the enterprise, a little bit different legacy baggage with, you know, from Oracle DBAs to, you know, specialized skillsets, kind of siloed, if you will. Enterprise developers now, big market right now, growing fast, a lot of speed is an issue. Agility, security, Brian was saying, that's sometimes at odds with each other. What is the segmentation in your mind between an application developer and the enterprise versus straight up, born in a cloud, cloud native developer? Well, segmentation is always hard. I mean, it does vary, but, you know, look, I'd say the Oracle customer base is people that work for living, right? They do a job, they go home, they got kids. They're a little bit older, they're not going to every single meetup in South Market, you know, it's definitely a different constituency. And frankly, the people that work at enterprise software companies, yeah, they work super hard, but there are different constituencies. I mean, there are people like you that spend all of their time with lifetime platinum status, because they're always on the road. There are others that are, you know, as I say, working close to, that aren't constantly traveling. And I think that clearly there is a slight difference there, that people, you know, they're not like, oh, you know, oh, Node.js is dead to me. Now I'm going to learn Rust. Oh yeah, I've got to move on to the next thing. Oh, Node sucks, I'm a go developer now. And the simple fact is that Java still remains an absolutely critical part of the enterprise development landscape. And that has to be an opportunity for Oracle. Yeah, I agree. Given the acquisition back in the day of sun and the fact that clearly that is an area that they should be able to benefit from. I was saying yesterday that, you know, and I said on theCUBE before, Java's for old people like me, that was just a cutting edge language at the time, as the evolution of languages came along, but now you're seeing Java really as a cornerstone for kids coding, one hour coding. It does a lot of heavy lifting stuff. I mean, it might not be the sexy, shiny, new toy language, but it has a place. Sure it does. Node.js does real time, you got other stuff out there, like Go, you mentioned fast growing language, very popular. Again, the swim lanes are being developed. Can you elaborate on those swim lanes for developers? Well, to your point, I mean, the node developer is probably a little bit younger, a little bit more aggressive. They've grown up with this kind of cloud native, API native, it's a slightly different take. I think the Java developers can certainly be relevant, but they need to reassess their skills. They need to be thinking about new ways of developing. And there's a lot of technology there. And I've said, if somebody is like, oh, I'm the nine to five developer and I don't want to learn anything new and I wanna use the Java from 10 years ago, that's fine, but they're not gonna bring the value to their organization. So Java still has some runway, but the developers need to double down on that. I mean, look, the Hadoop ecosystem, the big data ecosystem, and we saw Mike Olson on stage yesterday, and he's exactly right. Hadoop itself and all of the surrounding stuff is all actually written in Java. And so people are like, oh, Java's dead. Well, one of the things I talk about is, when web companies grow up, they turn into Java shops. So we've got JVM languages. You see Scala in all of these things. Twitter is on the JCP. Facebook has the biggest Hadoop infrastructure on the planet. So the idea that Java is just for, old line companies is wrong. As web companies mature, they've seen the benefit, in fact, of adopting Java-related technology stacks. So maybe that's not a fashionable line, but it's the truth. You talked about, we're going to see more companies bring back developers in-house, building their own applications, and a lot of them aren't going to be extending productivity applications. It's going to be business differentiation applications. Whatever that might be. Do you feel like the Oracle offering, because you were just at AWS, we saw you write up some things that were very positive about where it's going. AWS, very developer-centric. Do you feel like that developer is more drawn towards Oracle's offering, sort of the standard Java-centric, or do they draw themselves more towards this very modular AWS type of thing? Do you feel like Oracle can speak to that guy who needs to go very, very fast to change the business, or maybe not? Well, it's a great question. I mean, some of my coverage coming out of re-invent was just about the failure of the traditional outsourcing model. The outsourcing failed. It didn't deliver the value. And outsourcing, as it was, came out of that era of IT doesn't matter. Well, IT does matter. The customers are concerned that the risk reward posture has changed. And development matters. You need to be agile. You need to be bringing your business users close to the developers. There's a whole set of disciplines. The acceptance and understanding that systems will fail, and how do you mitigate that? You look at the Netflix OSS stack, they don't come at this from the perspective that Amazon will never fall over. They know that it will, so they need to build an infrastructure that enables them to keep running even when it does. I mean, that was interesting about the recent Amazon failure. People are still watching Netflix. So, it definitely requires a different kind of infrastructural thinking. Organizations, yeah. It's not enough to say, oh, Java has an ongoing lifeline. If you're going, oh, yeah, we have Java so we can outsource to offshore, and it's all gonna be in Brazil, or India, or wherever it is, it's probably time to rethink bringing things a little bit closer. So, and what do you tell companies? So, I mean, the Redmonk Group, you guys put on October Fest and the Things events and all that. What do you tell companies that are now saying, I want to go recruit developers. I want to go build community. If you're GE, if you're General Motors doing Internet of Things for cars, connected car, what do you tell them? Is they're trying to appeal to developers to come work for non-vendors or non-open communities? Right, I think it's a great question. Adrian Cockroft, now at Battery X Netflix, he talks about this very well, because he goes out and all these people, oh, Adrian, Netflix is so amazing. We can't compete with you on that. Where did you find all of this talent? And he would turn around and say, well, we hired it from you. Netflix pays above market rate. They explicitly say we don't want to pay market rate because we'll get type Bs instead of type As. Incredible benefits. I mean, the bottom line is, look, for a young developer, yeah, why would you not want to come and live and work in San Francisco at one of these hot startups and have the opportunities of share options and so on? So, what we talk about Redmonk is it's the job of the organization to better serve the developer and to give them a better working environment. And, you know, if you're coming at it from a, oh, they're a human resource that we can just outsource to another country, you're effectively doing it wrong. You've got to bring the developers closer to the business problems and be thinking about more agile ways of development. So, really, it's about, yeah, software development, particularly as we're looking for business differentiation through technology, it's not gonna come from an application purchase. It's gonna come from having good developers on-staff or at least very close to you. So, the point we make to enterprise is about wanting to bring these developers on-board is you're gonna have to give them the opportunity to choose development environments. You're going to have to find ways to work in the ways that they want to work because there is a skill shortage out there. They've got choices to make. They've got choices to make. Absolutely. James, give us your take on the show and wrap this up right now. I'll give you the final word. Oracle Open World this year, we've seen the evolution of Oracle Open World. Certainly, you go back four years ago. We've been here six years. I mean, it was four years. Larry was kind of flat-foot on stage. I think he realized, oh my God, I'm really too old. Fusion was coming off the blocks. I mean, that development happened way before Cloud was part of it. They retooled that platform. So, go back four years and look at today. What's going on at Oracle Open? What's your take of the show? What's the vibe of the show today? Well, I'm here. It's great. Oracle, after they bought Sun, I literally, I haven't been back to this event. I haven't been to Java One. Oracle had the view that the people they needed to influence was solely the purchaser. And Redmonk is not about purchasers. We're about developers and the influence that they have and the choices they're making. We're about the age of AWS. We're about the age of open source. And so, I think the fact that Oracle was like, oh, wait, maybe we're gonna start working with these Redmonk guys. We're interested in what they have to say. So, for me, I'm just interested to see the difference in positioning. Clearly, there has been a change there. I mean, I think people have a bit of a short memory because everyone's like, oh, Larry said that the Cloud wouldn't be a thing. He says that about every technology wave until it's ready. But they're serious now about developers, in your opinion. They're on a journey. They're on a journey. I mean, they've definitely got work to do. All right, there's a governor here inside theCUBE. Check out at SiliconANGLE.tv. We have Women Wednesday. We feature women in tech every Wednesday on SiliconANGLE.tv. And every week, our favorite interview voted by the crowd and our editors gets a podcast at SiliconANGLE.tv. Check it out. This is theCUBE. We'll be back more live from San Francisco, Howard Street, the Oracle Open World after this short break.