 really suck at coming up with titles for talks but this was the only way I could do it so it's a kind of a mixture that we have of of the manager that necks developers it says are we done yet where are we are we there did we get there it's kind of like my kids in the backseat of a long journey right you five minutes out of home and so how much longer do we have you know that's the first thing that came along and at another level it was also a case of me just reflecting upon many years of working with teams my own teams and with other companies teams and being involved in this agile community for for quite a while and we come through these conferences over and over and there's a lot of repetition and I think the repetition is valuable it's a necessary repetition to start off with because there's always new people walking through the building so we need to hear that and maybe sometimes we need to repeat it so that we can actually start believing it as well but in all this time did we achieve this magical nirvana of software development that we seem to be aiming for okay so there's this mixture of something that's quite literal and something that's quite philosophical it's a kind of topic that I could actually do zero preparation for and ask all of you together at these round tables and I'll say here's a topic please discuss it in your groups and then report back and then we'll pick one or two things and say okay how about discussing that a little bit more detail and you know and then I do nothing you know I'll just facilitate it and you'd do everything so it's not that I have some evangelism and gospel to reveal unto you today okay I'm going to put down some ideas and things that I've tried in practice that seemed to have worked for me your mileage may vary you might walk out of here thinking well that's an absolute load of or bucket of whatever or you might pick up something and try it so I'm gonna try to speak for less than an hour I want to have a kind of a discussion from you okay so before I go on just a show of hands whoops I still got my pencil in my ear show of hands who's who's on the manager side of the world and who's managers first people who manage teams regardless okay I know it's a management track but I mean anyone here who has that like an architecture or lead developer role or basically got hands on keyboard writing code lying to managers about how far we are anyone with the dual role okay okay you're really conflicted right just like me okay so