 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm yours Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mr. Richard King to talk about drum collecting and drum shows Richard welcome to the podcast Yeah, so um, this is gonna be cool. I love doing these episodes about Collecting and collectors and drum shows and all that cool stuff and how they all work together You have an interesting kind of role in this world where you're really you're kind of a high-end dealer to a lot of Different people and and do all kinds of things but before we get into talking about drum collecting and some of the history of it going back into the 80s and Drum shows and all that stuff. Why don't you tell us about yourself a little bit? Well, I live in Maryland now, but I grew up in the New Jersey area started out in Edison and then lived in Irvington and then East Brunswick and that was the era of all these great music stores that were privately owned This is pre beat big box stores and we had mascara's music in the Union, New Jersey And we had Louro's music in Edison, New Jersey, and we had highway music in Irvington He's Brunswick and these were all really great music stores that had brand new Slinglin and Gretch Rogers and whatever I used to pedal my little bicycle to these stores because I didn't have a driver's license then and I used to Steal the little drum catalogs wherever they had them lying around. Yeah, and they would chase me out of there But the drums they weren't finished then they were they were they were still being actively built, you know And you'd see these amazing brand new Ludwig, you know and Rogers and and Zico's and fives all these greats companies, you know, yeah And I bought my very first drum set I saved up my paper at money and bought for a hundred dollars a used Zingar drum set Wow, there's a lot of money back then. Yeah, really? And it was a cool kit because it was in black diamond pearl and had the little round badges just like on a Brooklyn Gretch kit You know, yeah, and right away I was taking it apart putting new heads on it and I I put a Roger Swivemetic Tom Holder under because the old rail concept was just flopping over and Just loved working on drums and I've always been an active drummer still am and I always worked on drums on the side For fun is a passion, you know, yeah, and I still still do that today. Yeah Those Japanese kits. It's so interesting how I think they're great because I mean, you you could buy one as a kid. You could save up your money and buy one and and it really I mean by design It looks like the drums that you you can't afford as a kid. It gives you that taste of of, you know And they really they sound minus, you know, maybe the rails and stuff like the hardware Could be a little better, but they're really nice drums and I always have a special place in my heart for those Me too, but you have since then graduated from the Japanese stencil kits and I've really dealt with some of the finest drums in the world and hardware and Memorabilia and all that good stuff. So let's just kind of hear about your background, but also really the history of drum collecting and drum shows as we go. So where does it all start? Okay? Well by 1984 There was starting to be a little bit of a buzz a little bit of chatter around the country about old drums They didn't call them vintage them and it was a small article in modern drummer on vintage drums and collecting them was written by Rick Van Horn and He talked briefly about Radio Kings and Gretches and that was one of the first mentions of collecting Finish drums and he had pictures of old Ludwig and Ludwig bass drums with the scenery on them and stuff And it was very interesting to see that but I already had the bug at that time And I started to work for a local music store here in Annapolis, Maryland called master musicians And at that time they were just a kind of a regular, you know guitar and amplifiers and PA drum music store, you know and One day somebody showed up with a 1950s Slinglin green sparkle drum set three piece And I was like oh wow look at that vintage drums, you know and I just had that article still on my head from from modern drummer and The owner of the store was a gentleman by the name of Jonas Aaronson and And we started talking about vintage drums and how cool they were and And next thing you know Jonas decided to start Putting a little advertisement in the back of the modern drummer magazine just saying you know if you're interested in vintage drums It was a little tiny little article or not even article, but a little advertisement in a very back pages You had to pay like a hundred dollars for that back. Yeah, and And and people would start to call into the music store say hey I'm kind of interested in looking at some drums and within like I would say within like in two or three years It went from zero to like a hundred because people saw that little ad and started calling up saying hey I got an old drum set I want to sell or wow or we got something we're looking for a Radio king or a black beauty, you know and that's when we started hearing about all these this because I was very very Uneducated as far as the 1920s and 30s and 40s go I was very well appraised with 60s and 70s stuff Yeah, and so Master Musicians started doing a newsletter We used to send a newsletter out all over the country and that it got bigger Incrementally over the years and months that we did that and at that time There was another drum company called vintage drum center with nettingerman and he started getting into the vintage drum business as well And he started putting out a newsletter But at that time he was based in New York and then he made the move over to Iowa delivery bill Iowa He started his drum letter and then several other people popped up Bobby Chison with Jollibee drum farm And then there was Lee and will haul and the great guy started the company called drummers tradition in San Francisco And then you have people just popping up all over the place little by little and by 1989 or 1990 there was quite a bit of interest in and that was when I started to hear from Rob cook as well I used to see he used to call us and we used to do some horse training back and forth and Right around 1990 a local gentleman by the name of Mike Cairo here in Bethesda, Maryland Had the very first I would say official drum show in 1990 I believe it was it might have been 89 But I'm pretty sure was 1990 over in Bethesda, Maryland and he had a drum a little drum shop called the drum the drum seller and He was the one that put the very first vintage drum show and all the players were there at that show You know Rob cook was there Jack Lawton Master musicians of course we were there and a lot of the guys that you see nowadays at drum shows were there All those years ago 30 plus years ago man really exciting. It is exciting I mean there's so much there too, which I have a bunch of questions But the first one though is going on that drum show I mean, I think everyone who goes to a drum show has kind of a different reason for going So personally when I go to one, it's usually to make for networking for the podcast. It's to find guests That's my reason and then also I like to look at the drums, but people go to acquire drums fair there for their stores to stock them people go for The love of just meeting and networking without having a podcast or reason to do it But but also there's just these people who collect Who who drums come in and they don't really go out? Early on in that first drum show and in 90 or 89 What would you say was the main, you know, was it was it really? Let's just see how this is going for a lot of people or what was the main reason people wanted to go at that point Oh people came there to buy a lot of collectors came there to buy and see and look around Yeah, it was it was kind of a first a first attempt by a lot of people on Expanding your collections. Yeah now prices because you hear people like Terry Keating like Bonzolium and stuff a lot of people will talk about You know, you would get a Ludwig kit for like 150 bucks I mean things were so cheap because the market hadn't totally blown up and inflated How did you see things with with prices? From that original let's say 84 ish 85 to 90 had things been steadily rising when you finally got to that first drum show Just a little bit. They really hadn't changed a whole lot at that point. Okay. Yeah Do you remember yourself? Did you acquire anything cool back then or what was your collection like in those days? Which I'm sure it's changed a lot and your business has grown. But what was your experience like there? My initial foray into vintage drums was all about tricks on drums Oh, and my handle used to be king tricks on because I had over a hundred tricks on drums in my collection Wow, and because I wanted to find something that was really hard to find that was difficult You know because Ludwigs and Gretches. There's a lot of that stuff I mean, there's some rare Gretches and rare Ludwigs but tricks on's in this country are extremely rare and that that Even then until now even they're still very rare Yeah, very hard to find I have wanted and been trying to do it's not like I work on it every single day But to do a tricks on episode, but everyone usually refers me to I believe his name is Ingo Yeah, Ingo. He's the master and he has said this was I probably haven't talked to him in about two years But he said I don't he basically said I don't know if my English is good enough and I'm like, you know thinking Let's try Because everyone else is kind of like he's got to do it like he's the man to do it And they don't want to do it. So it's so even the episode about tricks on is elusive Yeah, and hard. Maybe you're the guy for it. If you're if you're king tricks on, you know Retired from the king tricks on business Did you find tricks on's there? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah As soon as I put the word out that I wanted tricks on people started writing in saying hey I got this tricks on bongos and I was always looking for parts because the big problem with tricks on is you get them Missing parts or missing groups or whatever. So I was always putting out feelers there for old music stores that were tricks on dealers I said hey, you got any little tricks on Screws or brackets in the back or drum heads and early. Yeah, we got one or two, you know Yeah, so I was very fortunate because there was still in 1990 a few music stores that were still Where we're originally tricks on dealers back in the 60s that were still in business So I was able to get a lot of parts from those guys Interesting. I am asked a large trips on collection of parts stands rims drum heads. You name it Yeah, because the drum heads Mm-hmm are not For for the particular is it the speed it's the speed fire kit, right that has the the fire Yeah, that's you know, you don't go to guitar center and buy one of those bass drum All right, so let's move forward here with with drum collecting because things really blew up and nowadays stuff is Astronomically expensive for some drum sets. So so where where did it go from there? Well, be perfectly honest with you that the drum collecting business has never been hugely popular or profitable as the guitar collecting business You know the guitar collecting business started back in the 70s and 80s roughly on the same level as drums But then sometime in the 80s. It just went to stratospheric levels. The prices went up and they'd never come down Now it's very different for drums our drums have incrementally gone up in value But you can still buy like a good nice vintage kit for about $1,500, you know, you can't do that with a guitar, you know, like a strap. Yeah, why is that? I mean if you had to guess why is it because when I worked at guitar center even I remember that like, you know, the guys and you know I worked there for a summer but like the guys in the guitar department were selling five guitars a day I worked there for four or five or six months and I didn't sell a single drum set. It I would say it's also it's space They're big there, you know, there's not as maybe everyone besides, you know, ultra collectors They don't know a lot of space. I mean, what do you think? Well, first of all, there's a lot less drum resender our guitar players the guitar players out number It's like a hundred or a thousand to one, you know, I mean, yeah And and you're right there. They give the drums take up a lot more space They're low. They're noisier and so a lot of mom and pops. They don't want their kids playing drums They're like, why don't you play flute, you know, or acoustic guitar? Don't play the drums. Yeah, no drums I was very fortunate because my mother was very supportive of my drum playing and she wanted me to play at home As much as possible. So I got to practice every day in my basement. Yeah Well, the flip side of that is that if you have a drummer or guitar player that really wants to play They're going to play no matter what. Yeah, that's the way I was. I was going to play no matter what, you know Yeah, yeah. All right. So prices are, you know, like you said, they're maintaining We haven't really got to that boom. So after the drum show in 90, the first one in Maryland, right? What what happened after that? Well, they only had two shows in Bethesda The 90 and the 91 and that was it and Mike was done And then Rob Cook grabbed the football and ran with it and he started his first drum show at I think they had their first drum show at Cook's music, which is in Alma, Michigan And then they moved it over to where The the famous music store that was in in Chicago. What was that called? Maury Lichon's shop, but they moved it to there to that location. I think it was called Frank's drum shop, maybe lose track They Rob Cook ran with that and then also right around the same time that Rob Cook ran with the drum show idea my good friend Jack Lawton over here in Pennsylvania started his first show in Selen's Grove, Pennsylvania and started a Pennsylvania vintage drum show So those guys were kind of neck and neck starting around the same time, you know And and those grew very quickly the Rob Cook drum show was very very small one room and blew up And so did Jack's drum show. Yeah Rob's been on the show. I think more than anyone else over a hundred fifty episodes He's been on about five times and he's talked a lot about the Chicago show, but I mean You're not doing these drum shows to like to be stuffing cash in your pockets I mean, it's really a labor of love and I think it's it's it's awesome They do it and and for people we I mean every time we talk about shows. I always say it's just like You got to go you got to experience it at least once because it's so and you got to put yourself out there And I've learned too that it's very much like each year you get more and more Friendly with people and you you recognize people and I know a lot of guys of your generation are I mean Everyone it all seems like they're friends and they're connected and they've they've grown and they've they've experienced this stuff together And they've bought and sold and traded So it's really cool it's it's such a cool experience to expand on that when I first started going to the Chicago show in the 90s I only went there to socialize basically I would fly out there rent a car And I would hang around for the weekend and just just watch everybody and talk to people and it was a great Opportunity to meet with people that I talked with on the telephone for years and years of master musicians Before there was the internet, you know Yeah, and it was a great opportunity to get together and meet with people and hang out and And then after a couple years, I was like wow, you know, there's some really good prices here I might start buying so then I started driving out there now I drive out there. Yeah, I mean that's It's funny to see people's cars when they're when they're either cut when they're leaving with just absolutely stuffed with with drums and That's an interesting thing too is you you know, you you get the deals in the part there's deals in the parking lot There's like meeting with people, you know on the side. There's the the The Sunday at five I don't want to take this home kind of deals that you get Which is interesting. There's a lot of tactics, but you have as I referred in the in the Lewis Bernstein episode which You know people can go check out Lewis basically downsize this collection and you helped with that You made this into a business So so as we're talking about this when did that come into play with you realizing that like you said, hey, there's some good deals here, but but You help other people Facilitate these deals when when did that start to happen? Well, what happened is while I was working at master musicians We did everything through the store. We did consignments. We did purchases and all that stuff was handled through the store master musicians went out of business in 2002 because we had three Mars guitar centers there and the guitar center itself moved into the area So I kind of forced that business to go out of out of control. So we can no longer maintain that. So what happened is 2002 I was I was in I had a dilemma because I didn't really know what I was going to do I was still working full-time in the band and working at the music stores when the music store closed up I was like, I don't know what the heck I'm going to do But the the one thing that was really cool was back in about 1998 We started doing eBay at master musicians and I learned how to work and it basically made all my mistakes on eBay at the store So in 2002 I started my own business on eBay called Kings music And I went around and I started to do everything I was doing at the store only privately But it was really hard because I had a very limited budget. I didn't have a ton of money, you know Yeah, and so I started kind of splitting my Part of it being purchasing and part of my business was was selling stuff on consignment I would sell all kinds of drums for other collectors that were fitting out their collections And I've done it. I'm done that a number of times, you know, so that kind of worked out in my favor but what happened also on eBay is that I Made good money with the drums and I turned over a lot of stuff But more and more I found that the hardware the stands the lugs the bits Was way more profitable because you could buy that at a much lower price And I was able to turn that over and I and I kept looking back at the numbers I'd look at the drums and I was like how we made this money on the drums I look at all the money we made on the hardware Holy crap and so my specialty became hardware and that's when I really started focusing on buying hardware So if you a lot of guys would see me at the drum show and my car would just be packed full of hardware Like you said driving back down I 90 back to Maryland and my Honda pilot would just be loaded down in the back You know with to the roof with hardware, you know an extra thousand pounds of That poor car someone's got to do it. You know what I mean? Like I like how there's these specialized You sound like I mean going from tricks on to hardware you realize that It is a business and that you need to kind of pick your I'm sure you'd still buy a good deal, you know drum set and sell it or whatever, but yeah It's just like hardware is small. It's it's it's lower So you can sell a lot more of it. You can sell a lot more lugs than you can $1,500 vintage drum sets or something like that Now I don't you don't have to give away your secrets or anything But where would you be in those days and and whenever now? Where do you acquire this stuff? Are you hunting for it a lot or do people bring it to you a lot? I don't really have to hunt it a whole lot because a lot of people know me for this So I get a lot of calls from collectors and dealers who are not necessarily Liquidating their collection of drums, but in buying all these drums They ended up with boxes and boxes of hardware and they'll say rich you got to come here and clean me up I got way too much hardware and so I would drive to Michigan or Pennsylvania or Maine or whatever and Load my car up with a ton of hardware and a lot of it just came by referral I'm by word of mouth. I didn't really have to go looking. Yeah, and I really like how you said too that you you Learned, you know when you were at master musicians, right? That's the name Yeah, the process of eBay and all this stuff because it's not Easy to do this. It's not this stuff takes time and it I've recently been I always have non-drum related like reference like Parallel things that happen, but I've been doing Facebook advertising and Google ads for a guy I shoot video for for psychology seminars Man, I mean these Facebook ads and Google ads It's kind of complicated and you really have to learn it But when someone else is paying for it and you're on there the clock with them It really takes a load off and it's kind of like alright. I'm working right now, but I'm learning keywords and things So it's eBay and all this stuff. It's not just snap a picture put it up You need a nice clean description. You need photos. I mean all this stuff So the fact that you could learn and make that work I think was very advantageous of you to use that time to make a business out of it for yourself I was very fortunate because I was able to look over the shoulder of the webmaster at the store As he did the eBay and I will watch what he did and emulated it and learn how to do it on my own You know because if somebody just said, you know, he'd go and do the eBay and figure it out on my own I would have been years Yeah, trying to figure that out but by being able to watch the other guy and saw how he did it It really helped speed things up. Yeah, I mean because what what you see when you go to someone's page There's a lot on the back end. I've learned to there's like there's like the whole storefront I mean if you're treating it like a business you really need I mean your review Matter and then you're you've got it. You're like a shipping and handling department as well I mean you're all this stuff, which we'll talk about that but Do you think eBay is now as prominent as it was Then because there's now craigslist of Facebook and all these things do people use eBay just as much well eBay the one thing that's eBay that has that is unique is their auctions Seven-day live auctions and I still use those from time to time That's basically where I'll start something at 99 cents with no reserve and just let it roll You don't really have that with marketplace or with reverb Or Craigslist for that matter you buy whatever the price is where you negotiate it But there's there's no bidding, you know, and that's people still like the bid it's still a horse race You know, it's still like kind of like gambling with dice. Yeah, and that's why when I put it up I started at 99 cents and just you know roll the dice and let it go, you know, yeah Sometimes it pays and sometimes it doesn't I was gonna say you have to have been I don't want to say burned but Sometimes if stuff doesn't go, I'm sure you have that feeling of like, you know, I wish I could undo that Yeah, well, you know what you got into something You know what you paid for and then you end up selling it for like a Lot less than what you paid for, you know, but I always keep reminding myself It's a game of numbers at the end of the year If you look at what you bought versus what you made it always works out in the plus category So you can't look at the individual auction go and kill yourself. Oh, yeah, you know Yeah, are you a numbers guy? Like are you good with like I don't want to say good with finances Because that's sort of different of like, oh, I'm you know, I'm good at budgeting But are you good at like bookkeeping for your own business and stuff? Was that always something you were good at or did you have to teach yourself that I had a lot of help from an accountant? I take all my taxes and all my my schedule see You know deductions to an accountant and she helps me and she guides me on what I can do and what I can't do illegally But I I've always used their help because on my own I'd be screwed. Oh, yeah As you go though, are you are you keeping track of like like in an Excel's a spreadsheet or something? Like are at this sold for $20. Are you keeping track of everything? Or does eBay have a nice like back end that in the auto right that I keep a print out of every auction I can go back and you but I basically keep a running number in the back of my head Well, what sells what doesn't sell how much this sells against that got it when I go into a music store Or I go to look at a collection of hardware. I look at everything as a dollar amount You know, how much was this one screw? How much can I get for it because a lot of times the hardware that you buy that I buy doesn't have a name on it It's just a piece of hardware. Yeah, you got to know what you're looking at Yeah, and you're looking at a box with a thousand bits and pieces in it You got to be able to pick out what's gonna make you money And that's something that I've gotten pretty good at because I've had so much practice I've been doing it for so long now and I have all the catalogs and the parts list and Parts indexes and stuff like that. I've really been helpful because there's sometimes well, I'll find something I'll be like what the heck is this and I'll be able to go back and like some old 1920s leading catalog It's like, oh, it's that flippant of them, you know, wow so interesting so so if people listening are looking for a 1920s flippity bib What I mean, would they come to you and it was at a good route for people to say hey, I need this Yeah, let's work that real well because over the years I've had some people that were looking for very specific things, you know for for restorations Where they were trying to do redo a restore of that a vaudeville drum set or I actually did some work for the movies Where they wanted specific drums for a specific time era So or I've done stuff for celebrities as well I've worked with a lot of celebrity drummers that were looking for very very specific things And that's something I was able to refine and get get pretty good at you know, okay? Wow That's cool. We'll circle back to celebrities and movies because everyone that's always cool stuff So we got to talk about that more This episode is brought to you by dream symbols dream symbols has a master class with the legendary Paul word echo coming up On Friday, April 15th at 5 30 p.m. At Steeble drums in Cleveland, Ohio I'm sure it's gonna be awesome So if you are in or around the great state of Ohio near Cleveland on Friday, April 15th Go check out Paul word echoes masterclass at 5 30 p.m. At Steeble drums So do you have like in your house like a I mean? Not a warehouse obviously, but like but you keep all these these parts are stocked and ready to go and Categorized. Yeah, I have the house. I live in has a full basement and downstairs I have these racks and there's parts containers plastic cartstubs and each one's labeled With what's in there and what brand it is and all that kind of stuff and I can instantly Somebody says I need a throw-off lever for a three-point strainer on a radio thing. I know exactly where it's at You know how so I always they need a tension rod or a rim I have thousands of rims here hoops of all sizes and shapes and colors Hmm, you know, wow So yeah, I'm able to put my hands on all of that and do you clean and process things when you find something That's all gunked up and dirty To make it nice and ready to sell. Yeah, cuz my feeling my goal is I Love knowing that when somebody pulls a piece of hardware out of a box that I shifted them like a hi-hat stand They can actually play it. Yeah, and it's gonna play really good And it's gonna be cleaned up it's gonna have nice rubber tips on it and the felts and all that stuff a lot of times when you buy Hardware on eBay or Facebook or reverb It's in pieces and it's missing parts and some parts are stripped out. I've gone through and made sure I've retapped and died all the screws to make sure everything you can actually tighten it up and the thing doesn't slip on you Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow, that's neat now let's circle back a little bit because Like when we're friends on Facebook, obviously, which you know to set this up and all this stuff You post some really cool stuff that you like acquire that are like gold records from like the carpenters and things like that And I'm sure because so you're in that specialized World beyond drums beyond hardware How did that happen? Well over the years every once in a while somebody would say hey you do eBay I'm like, yeah, and they're like I've got this such and such I want to sell you know and my attitude about it. It's like well if it's a little 25 cent tricking it We don't want to do it But if you've got something of value that we both can make a lot of money on I'll be more than happy to sell it Like with with Lewis Bernstein not only did he have the drums But he had a bunch of original buddy-rich memorabilia drum cases and music stands and all kinds of cool stuff So we sold all that stuff on eBay as well Recently I was working for somebody. I'm still working for them. They called me up and said I got a Ludwig drum set that was bought by this guy. He passed away recently can you sell it for us on a consignment sure no problem and We sold the drum set and then all worked out. I paid them and they were real happy with the result They were like, you know, we got all this memorabilia at the house, but you'd be interested in selling that I'm like sure Why not so I went over there and they started pulling all this like gold records that I was like, holy crap This is incredible. You know and and there's more to be had there's tons more at this place So I'm really excited to see what comes out of there. That is neat Have you had like an experience where you go? That was the coolest thing I've ever sold drum related or not drum related But like I mean what was in you know, I'm putting on the spot But what was like the coolest thing that you've ever sold so far? I think part of the coolest things I've ever sold I have right now in my possession down in the basement. I Was at a drum pick yesterday and I was I was picking up some Drums and symbols and stuff and the guy had a little suitcase. I said, what's in that suitcase? It was an ACME whistle set From the vaudeville era and it came in a form fitted case back then that was nice made out of wood It's not like some plastic case This is probably about a 60 year old piece of equipment and in that case was like about 20 bird whistles And wow, it's the coolest thing is lined in velvet and has all these beautiful Whistles of every kind and it's freaking cool. That's awesome. Yeah, that but that raises the question too of like Like that's sort of something that might not you might have to find the right buyer that might not be the most To me that's worth a million dollars But that might not be the most valuable thing to Joe Schmoe on the street because it's so specialized But the history of it that's kind of tough where I mean you got to find the right buyer for this stuff You know, I mean that's very cool. I've already got that soul that's going into a museum. Oh, there you go That's perfect. I mean that's it couldn't be any better than that I mean that is that is definitely a part of history. They don't make them like they used to you know with All that stuff. Okay, so you mentioned working on Movies and stuff which which I'm assuming you're talking about like supplying drums that would be in a period Specific movie and stuff like that. What are some of the movies you helped on the biggest movie? We ever worked on this is when I was still at Master Musicians in the late 1980s. There was a movie called For the Boys with Bet Midler And they wanted six finished drum sets for that. So we had to put this together quickly, you know, and They were looking for period specific 1920s 1930s 1940s 1950s and so on, you know so we had to put a kit together for every era and it was a big order and They wanted to buy them. They said well, we can either buy them or we can rent them and we'll ship them back to you I should have bought I should have gotten them back, but we sold them, you know Wow And that was back when the drums were not bringing a whole lot of money So I think the whole order was about six thousand dollars or sixty five hundred dollars for the whole kit Wow, you know in Kaboodle and they they charge the shipping to their their handling company So but that was a really big deal. It's probably the biggest movie deal I've ever done worked on I've done some smaller things since then I can't think of them right off the bat. I do a lot more work with celebrities is what I've really been working on Yeah working on but it's not something I actively pursue it kind of just works out that way Yeah, I mean if you have the means to have someone Put things together for you like it went on a celebrity Status, why not? I mean just say hey, I want this this kind of drum set Can you name either any celebrities you've worked with or and if not maybe what you know? Celebrity X has what they typically buy as far as celebrity drummers go Probably the biggest celebrity I've worked for is for Charlie Watts. Oh great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was a huge deal And I did a lot of work for Charlie over the years Mm-hmm. I have a whole separate episode on YouTube YouTube about that as well. Actually two ups I don't have it. It was done one with with John to Christopher It's on his website and he did a wonderful job of putting that together. So yeah, we have all that yeah John has done such a cool job of Keeping Charlie not that anyone's forgetting Charlie Watts, but just keeping him in you know in like in everyone's mind and all that stuff And I got to meet him at a stone show in New Orleans and just what a Very there are very few drummers who have the means to buy those drums and also be so passionate about it It's just unbelievable. I remember him talking about he told me that he had I believe it was like Sonny Greer's drum set Yes, was that you? No, that's Steve Maxwell. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm sure you mean you guys are there's there's a couple You know, I'm sure you guys are you're obviously in the same business doing some of that stuff, but It doesn't get much cooler than providing drums for one of the biggest rock stars in the world Yeah, you know what's interesting about that also is for many years that I worked for Charlie He was just not interested in buying vintage drums just to buy vintage drums for collecting purposes And he drum that he bought for me for a long time was for specifically for a particular application He bought a drum set for me for the Rolling Stones the big stage And then he bought a drum set for me for the jazz band that he played in, you know So that was they were very specific and again They were never bought at that time to collect it was all to actually use them Wow Yeah, it wasn't until much later like in the later 90s Maybe even the early 2000s that he actually started collecting and putting the word out there You know, yeah a change. I mean people have their specific, you know from from the beginner collector up to Charlie Watts They have their specific I'm not gonna be collecting. I'm gonna actually use this versus I'm gonna have a warehouse full of artifacts and and Very very collectible items, which man I hope to Don Macaulay can get that music like a museum put together with Charlie's or whoever can get it put together with Charlie's Amazing collection someday. That's so yeah, that would be cool. So I going back to the movie thing real quick. It's so neat that Like the attention to detail on that movie to have these period correct drums Because really I mean, then you got to think there's probably period correct You know pianos and everything in the music sequences Six different drum sets. That's amazing that they had that level of detail Yeah, the property master was the guy that was setting this all up and their their attention to detail is very important and relevant to the movie that They're making and they're paid a lot of money to be exacting in their detail. Yeah, and the gentleman that was That was doing that was a gentleman. I believe his name was Lewis Fleming was the name of the property master for that show And he'd been around forever. He's who's a old-time Hollywood Prop master. Yeah, you know, and he had a lot of experience in doing that So as I've looked I looked him up on the on Wikipedia or something like that There he was done all kinds of movies quite a list. I don't know if he's still with us anymore Interesting. That's an that's a neat job. I the studio I work at There was a movie that got filmed there that was called girl from Compton It was when the straight out of Compton, you know movies movie was coming out and it was about Dr. Dre's ex-wife or girlfriend Michelle a and They would come in and convert things and have period correct TVs and stuff But I mean they didn't really like we had a we have a giant MCI board That's kind of been the middle parts taken out and an avid like a pro tools kind of rigged is put in a c24 for people audio nerds listening but That didn't go that much farther than that because it was like a lifetime or a hallmark movie Yeah, because it's time and attention and and it really adds up So for the level of production for like a big bet middler movie in that era was would wouldn't make sense But gosh you wonder what happened to those drums after they want maybe it went to his warehouse and they used it in later movies You know, yeah, I'm a big movie buff So every time I go to California, I go to all the different, you know Universal law the Warner Brothers lot and I've been through their property storage areas Which are massive if you ever saw the end of the Raiders of the Lost Ark There's a scene where they're going through this massive warehouse. It's like that. It's huge. Wow They got everything, you know after all that work though. I was just watching a movie I've never seen Arthur and I just watched Arthur the other night, which yeah classic movie But there was a scene where he's walking into a you know or stumbling I should say into a restaurant and the drummer Was like playing but it was the most ridiculous like he was like keeping time like riding on his Tom and Then just like not synced up at all So after all this hard work of like matching stuff up It kind of comes down to the the the background actor drummer, which sometimes you look and you go you're not even halfway Resembling something real. Did you when you watched the movie? Were you like, you know, were you happy with the performance of the the drummer? Yeah, I was really happy because I right around the same time maybe a few years earlier Gary Bussey had done a movie called the Buddy Holly story And it will drive you crazy as a drummer because the Buddy Holly takes place in the late 50s early 60s And here's a drummer playing a kit that's flagrantly from the 70s with the 70s Ludwig logo on it And not all the hardware. I'm like, no But only us drummers would know that the regular person on the street would be us a drummer. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I mean There's like, I'm sure there are websites devoted to these like, you know Mistakes in movies where like, you know, you're watching a 1950s movie and there's like a Honda Accord in the back or something like that Well Microphones are interesting, you know, I always heard That the Howard Stern movie private parts was extremely detailed with the microphone choices of Microphone through the period of like, you know, his dad working at the radio station, which that's a great movie But now all right, so let's talk a little bit about how things have changed with collecting as far as then to now With the prices, I mean things have really really gotten a lot more expensive You're in the hardware business specifically, but obviously I'm sure you still do the drums and stuff Has it slowed things down where people are buying less because the prices have gotten higher you think If you have a good quality kit that hasn't been mucked around with and it's nice and original You'll always be able to sell it, you know There's a lot of kids out there that over the years that people have drilled extra holes and modified, you know But that the rare pieces seem to command more and more money nowadays, you know The really rare stuff like the Gretch Gladstone's black beauties have always remained consistent We used to think black beauties were like maybe only ten ever made now We've come to find out that they made hundreds of them Mm-hmm, and we just just think that radio kings were exquisitely rare and now we've seen that they you know Because of Jean Krupp, they made hundreds of those to are running to them all the time But it's the really rare pieces, you know, like the little Gretch 4x14 Bebop snare drums the Cadillac green kits the camco kits have really gone up in value Yeah, camco kits really command thousands of dollars. Yeah, it's interesting to see Yeah, things go up and down but camco. I mean, I guess it's really a matter of supply and demand and if there's less supply Then demand goes through the roof. Yeah, do you have a drum set where like it could be camco or like a you know The Gretch Gladstone's or a Gladstone where it's really kind of again, holy grail moments What would be someone that comes to mind? That's just like like drum set wise that was a an absolute mega, you know find and or or consignment deal Mm-hmm. I think the Ludwig citrus mod is probably one of the rarest things I've come across a Guy here in Maryland a number of years ago had a citrus mod kit and he called me up. He says I got it I need this so my kit. I've got some financial trouble. I'm like, what is it? He says, oh, it's a Ludwig citrus mod. You know, I'm like, oh boy So I didn't even have it yet. I had a photograph of it that he sent to me I guess on the text or something and I sent that to bunny Carlos and bunny was like, I'll take it So like a month later, I was going to the Chicago drum show. I brought it with me that way He didn't have to pay for shipping. That's smart, which is cool Man shipping is a whole thing. I mean in in your world, especially I mean, well, I guess parts parts are smart You're smart on many levels with the parts thing because that's a little easier to ship but yeah, I mean you got a I Think everyone's had that where drums or not drums or whatever anything that you ship where you it's kind of hard to Calculate shipping. I'm sure you figure it out how to really do it But what are some tips you have from for people on on how to ship correctly and not get burned with prices? Um, I try to use post office whenever I can because post office can be really competitive Come when it comes to small parts or a small drum. That's very light, you know I generally otherwise use FedEx ground otherwise for everything Unless I'm shipping internationally that I got to go through the post office I've had a lot of experience shipping internationally over the years And I've learned how to I've done pretty well with shipping I haven't damaged or had anything broken in my as a result of my shipping Progress or prowess in probably 30 years. Wow, you know, I'm on talking bisco light drum sets and stuff like that And so the first thing I try to always tell people is you got to take on the bass drum Since you got to take all the T rods and claws off and take the drum head off And you also got to take off all what I call the bullet points like the spurs and the brackets Any Tom holders and any symbol brackets take them off So the base drum just has the lugs on it and then I wrapped that with two layers of bubble pack And then I wrap a cardboard cylinder around the base drum so the base drum like in its own cylinder and then I put that into a larger box, you know And if I if I have a floor tom or a rack tom to put inside of that I make sure that there is no way that any of the metal parts on the floor Tom can rub up it on the inside of the base drum scratch up either the parts or the inside of the base drum So yeah, yeah, so when people then get that drum set they have to then assemble for safety That's obviously the best thing but they're putting the spurs back on they're putting the stuff And I mean really the drum sets you're selling. It's not going to Little Billy for Christmas. Who's his first drum set. I mean these are collectors who know how to do all that and put it back together correctly Yeah, most people are okay with that and they respect the fact that they're getting a drum set that's been properly packed And they're willing to accept the fact that they're gonna have to put a little bit of work in a putting it back together But also it gives them an opportunity to exam the drums more closely and also to maybe do some cleaning that they might not otherwise do But generally I like to send the drums ready already to go cleaned up polished. Yeah from every every log every rim You know everything's cleaned up, you know, so yeah, I think it's worth it I was selling For for Gwyn sound the studio I work for when we got a new owner and it was kind of like let's clear out a bunch of the old You know how studios sometimes have like a room full of just old outboard gear and like stuff like like I believe it was like one of those it was like a MIDI control like a box where your sounds would be in this outboard gear Or whatever something like that. I was selling a bunch of stuff on reverb and it was all going great There was one item though, and I can't remember exactly what it was I think it was like I said like a like a brain for a you know keyboard or something But I packed it all up really really nicely. I put a lot of you know, I wrapped the just the bejesus out of everything But I got a note from the buyer sending me a picture This thing looks like it had fallen off the plane They had like the the ears, you know the rack mount, you know on the sides Yeah, we're completely bent the metal the thick metal was completely twisted, and I'm thinking how does that even happen? So of course I gave a refund. I don't think it was a super expensive piece of equipment But you got a plan for the worst so you're smart to take things apart and because drums are wood and yeah things break I did have an interesting situation I had to ship a Simmons STS 7 brain to France Like I like you said I packed it carefully bubble packed everything and they must have run over it with a brick with a bulldozer or something Guy sent me a picture from France, and I was like oh my god It was all twisted and smashed in and they of course they wouldn't honor, you know the insurance They were like no we won't cover it, you know so I had to fully refund him I lost the money shipping there and shipping back. This is I want it back So I ended up selling it for parts because the parts for those things are just as valuable as the thing itself So I was able to get a little bit of money back, but it was it was a huge loss It's just every once in a while something will get a catastrophic You know damage done to it by and a lot of times they're not always very good about covering it Especially if you're shipping to a country. Yeah, a lot of times they're going to be like yeah, you know, yeah Yeah, I mean there's so much going on that and but actually that's really smart, and I think that's something to touch on is the Sometimes having a drum set and all the parts seems like from time to time you can make more money Partying things out. Yeah, but then you're kind of you don't want to break up a nice drum set But like if you have a tom and like a floor tom Like orphan stuff that it is possible to or taking off like you said certain elements of the hardware That you can make more parting things out. Yeah, there are people that do that, you know And I don't begrudge them because I mean they're trying to make a living But they'll take basically a whole drum set and part every screw out and it and I've got something I've never adhered to I've always sold whole drums or whole drum sets or snare drums I've never parted them out because I just I don't know. I just feel something there's something wrong with that But that's just me. I don't criticize anybody else between that. Yeah, I understand that everybody's out to make a buck But what really gets me is that on eBay you'll see I'm kind of revered to what people will put up like a screw And it's not even a Slinglin screw. It's like a Japanese screw and they're like $20 for this screw I'm like what the heck I don't get it No, because I guess sometimes there's like, you know, you can find the keyword of like This is the right size for that drum, but it might not be yeah correct and all that stuff Have you ever come across? I imagine for everyone it's like, you know, the ultimate but like Like new old stock stuff. What what's your experience with that? I've had a lot of experience finding new old stock drums hardware and electronic drum equipment You know, because I'm really big into the vintage drum, you know, the Simmons the Tama all that stuff and Rowland and Sinair and Sinex a sin drum. So whenever I find it I might I get just as excited over that because I love that stuff, you know Yeah, and it's wonderful when you can find stuff like that It doesn't just because it's new old stock in the box. So it doesn't mean it's going to be mint A lot of times things can oxidize inside of a box You can pull a stand out and it won't be rusted, but it'll be completely oxidized All the chrome will be dull because it's oxidized and all the alloy pieces will be oxidized because it just old They just been sitting there for a million years. A lot of times they didn't wrap them with a whole lot of protective Like clear plastic. They wrap them in Paper and the paper doesn't do a really good job. We'll always keep in the moisture So yeah, yeah, it's still fun though. I love finding new boxes. Yeah, just the boxes. I get excited over Yeah, I mean, I think everyone listening would know this but new old stock obviously refers to like, you know, maybe a I don't know like a drumstore closed and then the building no one went into the building and the back room is just full of all these parts And stuff. So that's what that and that's every industry You see like motorcycle stuff and all this like the back room is just like but and then it's just neat to see Like you said the old packaging and all this that that cool stuff. Does that raise the value? It has to be a little bit more valuable because it's original. Yeah, I can raise the value Especially if you have something Exquisitely rare like a snare drum like an old Granchor Roger snare drum is still in its original box That could really raise the value, you know, especially if it's got the part number on the side that's Coherent to the part to the drum itself, you know, yeah, that's cool. That is very once in a while. Very cool All right, so What going back a little bit to like, you know, talking about drum shows and stuff like that How do you think everything? I mean, there's a lot of drum shows now and I mean, it's such a cool Community as we as we all know there's a drum show and the drummer community is just great Do you make it out to a lot of the drum shows still and and what do you think is going on? How do you see things now versus in, you know, let's say 90 when things? 32 years ago when things were just starting out I try to go to every drum show I can possibly get my hands on I mean, I've even been to the West Coast for the Hollywood drum show I try to go to anyone I can go to because I think they're all Relevant and I always try to encourage anybody who plays drums to check out a drum show because I always tell them you're gonna love it You're gonna have such a great time Looking at all this stuff hearing new products because the drum shows also have new products as well as vintage products And so it's a great opportunity to really test out new merchandise, you know Yeah, and it's just a great thing, you know, because there's so many great people, you know Even with the some of the younger guys that are coming into the business now Us home folks so we like to bring them on and we all go out to dinner and and shoot the crap and and it's great It's a great community. It's one of the nicest communities. I can imagine, you know, everybody's just really gets along great and Even though we're somewhat competitive. We still we're not, you know, stomping on each other Stepping over each other to steal something or buy something out from underneath So if we if I hear somebody spying or interested in something I back off. Yeah, so you have a great relationship Yeah, you don't hear many bad things and and I would I think it's true that if someone is being dishonest or a little shifty People hear about it. I mean, there's times where I hear about things where, you know I'm on the podcast more the interview side of things here in Cincinnati And it's like I'm hearing about a guy who's doing some shifty stuff like in England on eBay And I'm like, how do how I'm how's this getting to me? So word travels Your reputation is important and seems like the only way to really grow your reputation is to just be there and do it and be honest It's like each sale sort of builds up your reputation One stone at a time and and I'm sure there is got to be some competition like you and like Steve Maxwell And these guys and Don Bennett these guys who were like dealing with high-level drum sets. Yeah are sort of Going after the same people, but but I'm sure you guys are all very respectful and there's enough meat on the bone for everyone Yeah, yeah, I'm very fortunate because I have a clientele that that I deal with that they're pretty reliable and I do I still do a lot of business with them on a regular basis and We all I don't really have to go looking for it I don't have to call up and say hey, I'm looking for this or are you looking to buy this drummer? Yeah, it's very it's very laid-back There's not a whole lot of push or a competition because Yeah, I mean I Don't know it's it's such a cool thing though, and then there's a lot of there's a lot of collectors It seems like there's a lot of people who have the means to buy these drum sets and And and keep them safe, which that's the best thing too is these drums aren't going to You know the dump or anything like that because I'm sure then historically there's been times where some guy is just like clearing out an attic And has thrown away like you know a black beauty or something like that like yeah We've all heard stories about how we just missed out where you go to house or see somebody in there Oh, yeah, my neighbor just threw out this funky old drum set. I'm like no You hear about that all the time the most biggest one I've ever heard of is when Ludwig was closing down their flat They're a plant in Chicago and rather than move all this inventory down to South Carolina where they're based now They just threw it all away and they're literally dumpsters full of new old stock Ludwig parts that I would I would have bought every bit of it, but they just took all that stuff and threw it all away drums parts drum heads Oh, it just breaks your heart. Wow I mean, I guess it's because the logistical nightmare of like parting it out and selling it and taking the pictures and Well, then I guess there wouldn't be an eve at year. There's no internet then but I guess it's just easier to just destroy it Yeah, yeah, it's very different because like when Rogers was in the process of dismantling the business who's cbs CBS instruments own Rogers And they they basically put it out there and they sold a lot of that stuff to different dealers around the country My good friend Dave drew over at Al Drew's music bought a huge amount of Inventory from Rogers and had it shipped over to his warehouse in Woonsocket, Rhode Island And uh, so Rogers was really cool about that Slinglin when they got when they what got bought out Uh, gretch bought them out. So a lot of Slinglin inventory went down to the gretch Factory, I guess they're in South Carolina also So we're very fortunate they did that because Ludwig like I said, they just they just tossed all that stuff out Yeah, and guys like uh, bernie stone who has he bought he was on the show And he bought the old radio frequency Um, yeah, which that was a cool one. I got a lot of comments on bernie's episode people liked how we figured out The uh mathematical equations to make this equipment work, but uh been there. Yeah He went through a lot of trouble to get that stuff back up and running You know, yeah, you know an interesting story about the Slinglin factory is that Buddy Carlos who's probably one of the bigger collectors out there for many years He was for a very short time He was endorsing Slinglin drums for like a year and he was playing a black drum set with copper hardware Well, they called him up and said hey We're closing down the factory if you want to come by and help yourself to anything you want So he went down there and just kind of scooped up a bunch of bits and pieces And a lot of it was his copper plated parts, you know And it's funny how they had different companies handle things differently You know, they were willing to let people come in Slinglin was let willing to let people come into their They had a Chicago plan and just outside of Chicago and Niles, Illinois They let people come in there and just grab stuff Whereas long week they just threw it all away geez, um Man if you know it is what it is. You can't change change it, but Well, Richard, this has just been awesome. So, um, I am going to be at the, uh Covington Rogers drum show that Poshai puts on I think I'm gonna have a booth with um With Vincent Ward, uh, who's at junk rock drums and vitalizer drums and basically I just I don't really have anything to like Put I have a little sign and some business cards, but so I'll be there Uh with Vincent because he's got things to actually sell but then I'll be at I think I'm gonna have to miss Chicago this year because my wife is having a baby two weeks before And um, I'd like to not get my head ripped off by asking to even by bringing that up to go to a drum The drum show two weeks later, but um, I plan on being at the music city drum show in Nashville in July Okay, um for everyone listening and then um, I will probably be at PASIC in november and uh, I've never been to naeum I'd like to go to naeum in uh, January, um, so Are you which which shows are you going to be at this year? And so maybe people can come up and say hi to you and uh, I'll definitely be in Chicago I don't usually get a booth. I just kind of wander around aimlessly But I'll be in Chicago all all three days the dealer load in day and then the two actual show days I'm hoping to go to the music expo down in Nashville as well I I'm not going to go to the rogers thing because I have a gig that weekend Otherwise, I'd be love I'd love to come down there because I'm good friends with jeff berg and pochile They're really really nice people. Yep, and they always put on a great show Love to go to that but vincen's a good friend of mine. Also. He lives right here. Yeah, that's right. Well, yeah He's been over here. You can tell your stories. Yep Yep, vincen's awesome. We've kind of become I mean, we're like co Just we're kind of around the same age and he's really helped me out a lot with I kind of bounce ideas off of him And and and doing the whole patreon bonus thing, which we'll do in a little bit and talk about that was that was vincen's idea And it's worked out great, but um So, um, richard as we wrap up here I think We're going to do a patreon bonus episode here for a couple minutes and what I'd like to maybe talk about is um I don't know. I think a lot of folks who listen to the show are They either work at drum stores. They they buy and sell drums So maybe you could we could pick your brain When we do it and get like tips that you found on ebay for some key words that you like to use or things like You know photography and and and things that you've you've learned over it to get some tips on how to how to sell drums You don't have to give away your industry your your secrets But um, maybe we do a start to finish like you acquire it. You shoot it you itemize it all that stuff. Does that sound good? Sure Cool. Well, uh, if people want to hear that they can go to drumhistorypodcast.com and click the patreon link And follow and join up and get cool perks like that Um, richard, why don't you take this time now here to kind of tell people where they can find you if they Want to reach out and um, maybe get some hardware or deal with you with buying and selling drums or anything like that Yeah, well, um, my name is king's music on uh on ebay been there for well since 2000 2002. I'm sorry Uh on facebook you can just find me as richard king. I think that's about it. I don't really have a website anymore I got rid of all that stuff. Uh, but you can always contact me. It's facebook's the best way to do that Sure, because um, see people seem to find that much easier. Yeah, that's the way it's worked I think because that's how I connected with you is I don't know websites are a lot I have one for the podcast obviously, but websites are a lot to, um, handle especially if You're on ebay and all that stuff. So, um Well richard, this has been awesome. So I do want to before we wrap up. I want to thank, um, anthony amadeo for Suggesting you for this. Thank you, anthony. He's a great guy. I love anthony Yep, and uh, and um, obviously luis bernstein who kind of Put your put your name in my my ear to begin with with his episode, which was a really fun one So this is awesome. Richard. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Bart is a pleasure to be here If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning