 Our next guest is Chief Charlene Gale from Canada, an indigenous leader and member of Fort Nelson First Nation, chair of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, an on-profit organization helping First Nations make informed business decisions concerning major project development. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me, Masi. First of all, how is climate change specifically affecting indigenous communities in Canada? So, as an indigenous person, we are very connected to our lands and our airs and our water. We're very traditional people where we still utilize the borewell forest as our grocery store. So, harvesting is something that we do in seasonal rounds in our communities, where we fish, we hunt, and we trap. There's a lot of benefit and beauty that comes from that and that way of life. In the Fort Nelson First Nation territory, we have many villages, and our territory is the size of Switzerland. So, when you think about us as indigenous people, we're not just on this small little land base. We have a huge responsibility, and especially as a chief. We have to ensure that we're aware of our surroundings. And so, when First Contact came, a lot of our people were pushed on to reserve, and our parents were sent to residential school. And many of you may have heard of those atrocities. However, we do have indigenous people and elders that still live in our villages today and live the traditional way. So, we have a huge responsibility to ensure that future generations will be able to understand our way of life and be able to continue those practices into time memorial. When I talk about those kind of things, what our elders are seeing through climate change is massive forest fires. One of the forest fires in our community was the size of Vancouver, which is a huge, huge city in the province of British Columbia, Canada. And this has been brought on because of drought conditions. And the drought conditions are coming because we're not seeing the amount of rain that we're normally used to. So, muskeg, as we're known as muskeg and mountain people, are starting to dry up. When we go to go pick berries, we're noticing that the bounty isn't there. With the less snow that we have, and just like recently, we went from minus 30 to plus 12. So, with that brings a lot of melt and a fine crust over the snow. And the mousse, you know, they use their nose to like move into the snow and get to the roots of different vegetations. And when that fine crust of ice goes on top of the snow, it makes it really challenging for them to be able to harvest or to get their food. Other things that we're seeing is that even with fish, like some through industrial development, we're seeing that where our people have fished for thousands of years, they're setting nets because they can't believe that the fish aren't there anymore. So, there's a lot of concerns as we go into climate change, you know, there's flooding, there's windstorms, and just things that we haven't traditionally have been able to witness as we go into the future. It's just changing dramatically. So, we are seeing the change as Indigenous people. All of the changes that you mentioned, is it concerned raised by kind of the elderly, people who still have a more traditional lifestyle? Is it the youth? I mean, in terms of your community, what are people saying? I mean, are they concerned? Yeah, we're definitely concerned. This comes from all ages because through our traditional teachings, everything's passed down orally through our ancestors and through our elders. And so, at the Fort Nelson First Nation, we have an elementary school that we've had an operation for 42 years. And we bus non-Indigenous kids to our school, so they learn our language, they learn our culture, and they learn the ways of the land. When you're out there, you can see the different, the way the animals move and what they're doing. And so, for an example, our elders can even look at what a bee is doing. So, with the bees are building their nest underground, we know that we're going to have a little bit of less snow. If they're building them high up in the trees, then we know that we're going to have a very nice winter with lots of snow. So, these practices and teachings have been passed down. It's called traditional knowledge. And so, when we make decisions about projects, we have to incorporate that scientific knowledge along with our traditional knowledge. That's fascinating. You also have a background in the oil and gas industry. Could you tell us more about your journey and what made you decide to advocate for Indigenous representation? So, as a young person growing up in Fort Nelson area, I started off in high school working at the mill, a local mill that processed lumber. And so, my job was we can clean up, we would go there, we'd clean out the glue bins, blow out the dryers, and so forth. And that provided a really good livelihood for a teenager growing up on her own in Fort Nelson. And after high school, I ended up going to post-secondary and getting a job at an oil and gas facility, which is about 20 kilometers just outside of our home community. And it provided a really good paying job in the Fort Nelson First Nation. There's only so many opportunities if you want to do good and raise your family. So, I'm very proud of the work that I did there. I'm very proud of what I've learned there. And, you know, just being able to be around a lot of professionals in the corporate world, it gave me a lot of skills to be able to bring that to my community when I became a chief to ensure that, you know, our practices are up to standard. For an example, recently about, like, time doesn't matter as a First Nation person. I said recently, it was five years ago. So, five years ago, we started looking at our investments. We started looking at our practices, even for financial. And so, we got a part of this process, which was the FNB, which, you know, we want to follow international standards for our finances and making sure that we're accountable that way. But just going back to working for oil and gas, it really gave me a real understanding to apply those things that are so important to our community. But with that, we had a different kind of technology that came in, and it was fracking. And our people were so used to the conventional way of processing oil and gas, whereas fracking used a lot of water. And it really opened up our land base in a short period of time, where our land users, our hunters, our trappers, our gatherers were starting to see enormous changes in six months, in a year, in a year and a half to two years, where massive amounts of water were being drained from our territory. The muskeg was drying up. You know, we talked about the fish, the animals were starting to move away from the area. And these are all things that our people depend on every year to be able to sustain ourselves. And so with that, we decided that we would bring a delegation to Victoria, where decisions are made in our province, to talk about these issues, because in Fort Nelson, we have such a small population base. And we felt it was important that the rest of British Columbians knew what was happening, so that we could get support on finding a new way to find best practices to be able to be a part of the industry, because our people have worked for oil and gas for over 70 years. But I do have to say that just through many boom and bust cycles, which we're currently in a bust, we were able to look at other opportunities to be involved in the clean energy space through geothermal. And so when an old gas well that depleted, that had been providing revenues to our community for over 50 years dried up, we started exploring other opportunities. And through Geoscience BC, who did initial studies to see what was happening underground, gave us the potential to realize that we had some heat sources underneath there to be able to do geothermal. And so we got really excited about that, and it's been quite the journey to be able to repurpose an old oil and gas well for geothermal. I have several questions in my mind now, but I mean, historically, you mentioned that Indigenous communities have been involved in the oil and gas industry for 70 years. And so you were part of that as well. Is the energy transition an opportunity to involve Indigenous communities even more in the local energy sector? As you were mentioning, you know, this geothermal project, for example. It's in a very exciting time for our people because this geothermal facility, it's called Tudeka. We have a website online if you'd like to learn a little bit more about it, but it's 100% Indigenous owned by our own people. So there's the opportunity to ensure that, you know, at the top level, we have people sitting on the board of directors. Our people will be having opportunities to have management positions and so forth. Traditionally, in the oil and gas play, we were always at the lowest of the totem pole where a lot of our members were working in seasonal work. So spring would come along and they would be laid off. So they weren't really meaningful jobs. Then there's a few that, you know, have jobs that were full time, like myself that worked at the Fort Nelson gas plant. But yeah, I think that there's been similar experiences across Turtle Island for First Nations where, you know, it's been seasonal. It hasn't really been meaningful. And, you know, you see billions of dollars leaving our territory without hardly any benefits coming to the community. So that's why just going back to your first question, it was really important for me to find a new way to be able to be involved in this conversation so that we could help other First Nations that are trying to do what we achieved, find their place in being able to build clean energy projects. Is the geothermal plant up and running as we speak, or is it a project? So right now we're looking at having it turnkey by 2026. And it is challenging. I mean, this is something that's really new to the Fort Nelson First Nation. We, with the support of the First Nation Major Projects Coalition and Canada through NRCan, we were able to get a $40 million grant. And with that grant, we've been able to seek capacity support through the Coalition, which we provide free of charge to our members. But, you know, there's so much commercial things that need to be done to be able to get to this point. Well, that's legal support, you know, geotechnical studies, engineering, and you name it. I mean, this is all something that's new to my First Nation. I can only imagine what other First Nations are thinking when they get involved in projects like that. We need that support. We need that professional view on how do we proceed so that we can go back to our members and, you know, share this information with them so they can make an informed decision on do we proceed or not. The power generated, is it going to be mostly for local needs or do you think you're going to export it elsewhere to Canada? Well, as a First Nation, and as, you know, we have a Crown Corporation, BC Hydro, who, you know, doesn't really like to go off their mandate of inviting others in to be able to sell power to whoever they like. But as an Indigenous person, I feel that is our sovereign right towards self-determination to be able to do that. And we're in a quite unique situation because the Fort Nelson First Nation is, gets their power off the Fort Nelson gas plant, which we know is a dirty fuel. And with the Town of Fort Nelson, you need about seven megawatts of power to run the whole town and industrial field. This project is estimated to be able to produce 15 megawatts. And so the unique part of that is we can totally transform our territory by running on a clean energy. And with the other excess energy, we're able to, perhaps, sell it to Alberta because there's already existing power lines that run towards Alberta, which is roughly about, I'd say, two to four hours away, you know, if you're driving on an ice road because the Old Indian Trail still exists, you just can't use it seasonally. You just drive on that road and you have to like create an ice road. But our cousins are over there. And to me, being able to provide clean energy to them would be so meaningful. For First Nation people, borders don't exist. And we're separated by many of our families through borders, whether that's Northwest Territories, the Yukon, and Alberta, because we're in the northeast corner of British Columbia. So everyone is really close and everyone used to use our rivers as our highways. And, you know, dogs led to do our seasonal rounds and go visit different communities. But ultimately, I feel that this is a real opportunity for even the spin-off opportunities that's like building 100 greenhouses. And what's coming out of the brine are the critical minerals. Can we provide another opportunity to be involved in the clean energy space? But food security is a big one. I don't know if you guys ever traveled up to Northwest Territories or the Yukon are even further. But it gets really expensive for food. And, you know, a state can cost you $80. And the watermelon can be on the shelf for $40, a pack of water $60. So the costs are huge. So we can really change the way we're living and provide affordable food and so forth through the spin-off opportunities. That all sounds really fascinating. I mean, all the best of luck with that geothermal power plant. I hope it, you know, it comes on the grid as quickly as possible. And kind of speaking of Canada's net zero road map, in what ways do you think that could have an impact on indigenous communities or maybe be an opportunity in what you've just described? And how do you ensure that, you know, there's actually an inclusive transition? I think our project, you know, really gives other First Nations hope and the idea that they can do this. You know, we can be a part of the clean energy strategy and we are. Other than municipalities and governments, First Nations are the biggest owner of green energy projects across Canada, whether that's solar, geothermal, wind. And it's a fascinating time for all of us because we're all learning together. And it's a new space. So I think that, you know, when countries think about getting involved in clean energy projects with indigenous people, they should ensure that they're done through indigenous reconciliation. And they should also ensure that, you know, these projects are accelerating decarbonization of our economies. And that, you know, to be able to do that is to ensure that we put policy mechanisms in place that are creating opportunities for indigenous people, whether that's through equity, addressing systematic, you know, atrocities that have happened to us, correcting the wrongs and making them rights. But one of the things that we've been really advocating for in Canada is ensuring that we have indigenous loan guarantees so that we can finance these projects, providing capacity support for indigenous nations so that we can do our land use plans to be able to develop our traditional territories. Land use plans are really important because they really identify no go zones for industry. And in our community, we've been putting buffers around our village sites. We've been putting buffers around our waterways and sacred sites and places that our people want to protect because in the past, when industry has come in, it was really sad to hear from some of the younger generation when they hear that, you know, I used to go hunting with my grandfather in this space and we went back there 20 years later and it was a cut block and it had totally been cleared out by forestry. And so that's why land use plans are so important. But the capacity support can also help address commercial structures and understanding what that means. But it also provides economic analysis for the project and to be able to bring that information back to our members because our members are the ones that are going to give us the yes or no if we can move ahead on projects. And it's really important that indigenous consent is a part of that because in Canada, we sign treaties and their peace and friendship treaties. They weren't seed and surrender treaties. And I know that has been forgotten by the newcomers, but our ancestors have always told us and I talked about the oral history, which is so important. We pass that down to our children. My son is nine years old and he understands what treaty is and we celebrate it every year. But I think that offering incentives for indigenous people from industry and government is going to be the key moving forward. How can regulators facilitate indigenous participation? Any models that are worth replicating across Canada? Well, regulators have a very complex role. Everyone seems to look at it as a competition. I talked about those borders as an indigenous person. I think if we could break down those borders and be able to work with our cousins, we would find new ways. And when I talk about cousins, I mean, I'm talking about even North America. As an indigenous person, I should be able to sell power to the tribes in the United States if I want, let alone my cousins in Alberta or NWT. So there's a lot of work to do for regulators and utilities and especially in the space of how they can support indigenous ownership in these clean energy projects. One of the projects that we were really proud to support is in Ontario where we worked with Hydro One to ensure that there was 50% equity offered to any indigenous nations on any green fields going forward. And that is a win. And I really encourage other provinces and territories and other countries to really adopt that model. Because moving forward, especially in Canada, any projects that are built are always going to be built on indigenous lands. And we need to realize that indigenous consent is very important in those processes because first nations have rights and titles. And the courts have always sided with us. That's the last place I want to be is in court winning another case. I rather work with my treaty partners. I rather work with industry and government and sit at the table with them and make decisions together. I think that's important in the way going forward. Another one in my home province in BC Hydro, they are doing a call for power, which ensures that any clean energy projects that are going forward, that they have to have indigenous partnership and ownership, a part of it for you to be able to be eligible. So currently with our geothermal facility, we're negotiating our rates. And through the support of the First Nation Major Projects Coalition, we're looking at financing and getting all those really fine pieces together so that we're successful. If we talk about the needs of kind of civil society at large in Canada, but also indigenous communities, how do you separate the two? How do you differentiate between the two and the government and regulators in Canada equipped to support indigenous participation in Canada? Well, I think merely offering First Nations low equity is not the answer. I talked about the 50% model. Our people have been through enough. And I think that Sharon, she talked about indigenous lands and having an important conversation there with nations about equity. It's not that we are against development. We want to be a part of development. That's a meaningful way where we're part of the discussion where we have opportunities for, I talked about, a loan guarantee. The loan guarantees are really important. And we've been advocating that for over a decade. That's a lot of work. And I'm happy to say that the Canadian government has confirmed this program in the next budget. But you know, those details are forthcoming in the spring. And we know that there's going to be a lot of work to do. And we have to keep on that to ensure that this program is set out in a way that can be utilized by many First Nations in Canada. It's something that I really encourage other countries to do. And I think it's really important. Just talking to our ambassador, she talked about how 14 members of the IEA are going to be at this conference. And, you know, they have indigenous nations within their countries also. So I really encourage them to look at indigenous loan guarantees and really include First Nations and put them at the forefront of this energy transition because as First People, we have always ensured that we were going to have a sustainable economy. We always found the solutions to be able to move forward. And I think that we'll be able to expedite these projects if indigenous inclusion is directly involved and that we respect their rights entitled to the land and, you know, listen to the people and the elders that are making sure that they're a part of this transition. One final question, and that is the same question that I asked before. If you had a magic wand and could change anything about the world for a more sustainable planet, what would it be? Well, I'd probably, if I had a magic wand, I would probably totally erase first contact from our whole history because I think that as First People, you know, we have always been able to find the solutions to move forward. And, you know, one thing that I always say is never underestimate the ability of my people because they are so resilient and they're so strong in their thought process. And I think that, you know, this world would probably be a better place if we were just left alone. We'd probably be advanced, more advanced than any other humankind if we weren't, you know, put up with the challenge of trying to defend and take care of our language and our way of life. But if you would ask me this question 10 years ago, I would probably say it wouldn't be great if solar was affordable. Well, we did that. Or I would say, you know, wouldn't it be great if we could, you know, store this energy from wind and solar? Well, check, we did that. But I think ultimately is we don't need no magic wand. And I think that's what got us in this pickle altogether to be able to move forward on this clean energy technology. And I think that just by working together, you know, with the thought process of having a sustainable planet with a vibrant, you know, a vibrant, vibrant economy where we can ensure that our net zero goals are achieved collectively. I think that the more people you invite into this conversation, the more successful we're going to be. And I all invite you to come travel up the Alaska highway and come visit us at mile 300 at the Fort Nelson First Nation. I think like it's going to be pretty amazing as we move into the next decade of our lives because, you know, that fresh food and, you know, that clean energy and the pride and the strength and our people that that's going to bring is going to be tremendous. So I look forward to inviting you to the Fort Nelson First Nation territory must see. Thank you so much.