 And we're in the, for the camera, hi. We are in the game scene above, you can put the next slide. I put in the slides all the topics we want to discuss. In first place, we all want to talk, it's not an exposition, it's above. We want to set up a policy for games packaging. I've been suggested that at least all the packages in the game should include a desktop file, a new file, it was included in a Nitron file, a watch file. If that applies. If, because for some packages there is no, there is no point in putting a watch file because there is no more option or something like that. If the reason... We should perhaps market them, probably. Yes. Yes. Yes, something like that. Somebody taking notes, actually. We're rewarding it. Well, yeah, but after that you would have problems to recollecting the points. Okay. The step talks, the idea to use that text for marketing whether it is upstate that and so we can do this. That's great. Thanks. Perfect idea. Yeah, okay. Another point here should be, it's not there. What to do about big data chunks, like it's... In the game demo, I mean, just to notify the problem, we're not solving it here. In fact, Konnery and Seretar has told that that's really an FTP master's problem in our towers. But the fact is that we have big, we have games with big chunks of data, like... Netflix? Netflix? Yeah, those games have two problems. And we'll be also blessed. As soon as you upload it. Excuse me. Okay, if anyone has any idea, I mean, the problem of the big chunks of data are mostly that first for every new upgrade of the package you have to upload a big amount of data that also needs to replicate to the mirrors and also usually when you release a new version of the package usually the data is not really that modified, it's usually the engine. Maybe there should be some point, some way to just make some kind of big upgrades to the data packages. Some has suggested, because we are not the only ones to have that problem. The Italian scientific have a bigger problem than ours in that sense because we are moving around the hundreds of megabytes in terms of data. Scientific programs are moving more in the gigabytes. I think one of the biggest problems is that these packages take the place on the FTP archive twice, one time the source package and then another time the binary arch all package. And we can fix this with our strong integration with the key monsters. And I think they are in charge of the archive and the dexter's position to propose changes to TPAPG in order to end up to 10 years. So it needs to be an obsession without an internet platform? Yes, so this point and this point is mainly to inform about the problem and say that we cannot solve it on our set and move on to the next point. Then about the QA, we want to provide automatic compilation. This is a different part. Automatic compilation of the SDN staff, what do you think? So about the tourist SDN build start, at the end of the day, we have a regulation test with a bid after every commit. A bid done on the end of the run is a big success. The routes are really good on the roadside. So you can show the SDN build start in the end of the net. Slow computer. Okay, the point why I was interested... What was it coming in? SDN build start. Bid? No, not that. SDN build start. Is it possible to build? Louder sound. Okay. So we will choose the beginning team. I saw your view of the statue of every package in the train. Wow. So we can easily find or find games or games that we can attend with the watchrider. It's the left or right mode. The right mode. So there is... Today there is too much games with the watchrider. So we can easily find them. I think there are about 70% of the games that have no watchrider. But there is a lot of broken watchrides too. So it's a big problem. And the other two points. About lithium and industry shoes. There is also a lot of package that needs to be fixed since after edge release there is a new check that happened. I don't have a lot of things to say. Yeah. Just a question. Does this kind of mark the 12 packages are out of date? Which packages are out of date? Do you see that from here? I see just a yes and a no. But I think that means there is a much better no. No. There is no problem. It means that it's out of date. Ah, I see. Okay. If there is no watchrider. The scale. Go up a little bit. There. I can improve the results. Okay. Great. The point would be to make the thing as automatic as possible. We should also do some automatic tests on whatever we decide to be the policy of gains regarding manual watch files and so on. And also it was suggested that it's going to be your turn for the back force staff. Yes. Did we actually go through all of them and end it to this point? We are going all over them. The last one will be your turn. Okay. You can see whatever you want. I first wanted to hear about your suggestion about regarding the back force. Yes. The idea was that actually games are more dynamic than other packages and they have a tendency to have users which want to have latest releases and they don't quite want to wait until they have released them in Leni to get the fix for a bug. So I was thinking that maybe we can set up some server, maybe the server we get from Lufthansa. Yes. You know what it is. It's already done. You don't need a back force of all. Yes, I know. It's automatic. Is it automatic? Yes, it is. It is for at least five architectures, I think. But does it automatically back force unstable? It doesn't. You don't make one source-tomatic back force. You don't want it done really automatically. Someone needs to check it. Yes. There will be a point that you can upload a back force from a testing package and it will be able to go then be away from it. Yes. I see that it's a test but only from testing. Only the server that is from unstable. Yes, because the purpose of backports.org is that there is no version newer than the coming upstream. So if you use packages from there and switch to the next release, you can properly upgrade your system without any problems if you use the back force. Which isn't warranted at all if you do automatic back force from unstable? In fact, there's a big problem with at least four packages in Python which are increasingly too much in the other time. The games, I mean with the game and so on. Because you move all the possible dependencies to runtime instead of compile time. So the package will probably compile OK or be generated OK like in one work later and you will have runtime extensions. OK, but the idea was not actually to have backports in that way. I was thinking maybe we could actually see how much during the release cycle of a stable release we can actually do backports in the same manner without adding dependencies in stable. So just compile them against what's in stable and to see if we want to support, let's say the release team decides at some point that they want to do something like partial releases or point releases with some updates or maybe we want to have, probably we want to push something like volatile maybe a net for games or something like that if that's feasible. Because usually gamers do not care about the fact that they have a stable system they care about games themselves. Just compile them to backports, how can be done with it? It works. People are happy with my backports of Wesson. I mean, yeah, you can just backport the versions from testing. But technically, do you really want to skip these 10 days of testing the package and maybe introduce something really nasty towards their backports? No, I don't want to skip those. I want to have as soon as the package enters testing I want it also available for stable without any manual intervention. In some way or the other it's possible. Seriously. It's possible. I feel automatically build it. I think technically speaking one could create some head of job watching if the packages move to testing and then upload so it proves if you've got backports. If you ask for it to subscribe to the package and you get information. You need to think. Maybe we should really get that part of the backports team or coordinate with them. I mean, it's taking too much time to meet them both. Maybe we should try just to coordinate with backports. Yeah, there are other insights. Every devian developer who has a keen hearing can upload to backports. So there's no need to coordinate with the backports team. It probably might require lots of space for backports. Because they usually are quite short and have small packages. The complete pool like we have for devian but it shouldn't be lots of a problem. It's still a bit objective with respect to completely automatic building the package for backports. You would need to have someone check the build logs anyways and see if everything went correct so that there's no need to have it automatically. Bruno was pointing out that he was mostly thinking about most wanted packages. Most wanted games. Not all. The problem with backports is that it didn't meet manual interventions. So it really needs manual to actually compare which packages are outdated and backports broken for which are new packages available in the game. There is a quite well-page thumbnail bowman. He has converted a script that was done by someone else for comparing Ubuntu versus devian versions. And it's all something like that. He did do such a page for backports org with respect to the archive. So that's perfectly available already. It just needs someone to go through this and constantly update the package. Yes, but that can be triggered through some script that does take a look at that page and sends a mail. Cool, you want to write it? Let's move on to the next question. I think we should discuss it later. To the main release or something. I mean, it's put there. I mean, we'll have to explain what we want to feed. Your program. I wanted to ask the team is most of the packages we currently maintain in the devian games team are most of them are completely unmodified source packages repeatedly. And people are defining bugs in the window about our packages which are recombined in the window chat. And I wanted to ask the team if we are interested as a team in the window bug reports of these packages. I think we can add such a recording about the review. Sorry? I think we can add a current about that in a standard step to a new report. No, I was wrong thinking about the main release I think I could do something that we launched that directly mails us about new bugs and bug trails and pretty like you can get from the PTS currently. About the same size as we have in devian. I think it would be a good idea at this point we are already surprised we won't do so. In games packages if you want to already have a mask with something it makes sense. We already have some developers in the devian games teams so they would preferably care for the bugs. I just wanted before I do this before coordinating to get some consensus if we really want them. I think it's a really good idea. To win the release I would just I mean it's too early of the month. The same size as devian. But we have right now we have three lists. We have the general discussion making list that's in devian lists. We have a list for bug reports and so on and we have the commits list. So we can we can read them to the bugs list and we have a new one like I think that's too many lists already. And the bug list would be sufficient for this purpose. We could have devian and if you win two bugs on the same list and compare them and so on that would be easy. In fact if anyone wanted to talk to them he could do it in the big program or something like that. If you want to review a few bugs will we need to create an account on the yes sir I have to ask for this but I think it's I'm not sure how it is in launch but unauthenticated replies to bugs I think they will be discarded from a reply from a non in launch but registered mail account but I need to check that. Anyone want to check that you can reply by mail without signing into mail? Right, replies are in... No you can't manipulate the bugs without signing them. But what if replies gets to the list and from the list someone replies? Right, it's possible. So it's exactly in that case? Yes, if Nubuntu or some launch but account replies to there it will get in any case I'm not sure what happens if you reply to a bug in a non-subscribed when you need to live in launch but account. Okay, what if you're carrying us in fixes? How can we close the union to bugs in the share manager? In the share manager? You can. I think the bugs will be a bit confusing if we close Nubuntu bugs in the share manager. I think that's no problem there's no such problem. I think they use the same closing syntax like us so it might appear in all... No, no, no, no. That special visit with LPG or something like that specifically this is Malone something. That's a technical problem. That should be done afterwards. We don't need to discuss those details here. We agree that to send bug reports to the list do you want to do any one of these? I don't care. Great. Next point would be to simplify the search of games to the users that I mean everybody thinks that Devian has no games when you want to play something you just don't find it I like this kind of games of the Marandavian so we want to make something to make it easier for users to find games This should use also the tags. Yeah. And because he was taking the plane as you know but we are counting on him he was very supportive to this and his way to help even if he's not here There is also some firm which actually does this some kind of web pages and classifies packages in Devian they work here Actually, Devian Junior has done something with all the games There is also some very nice wiki pages in Linux but they are in Spanish I mean they could be used translated and they have screenshots, they also want to publish a book which is very nice I mean it's usable, it doesn't matter of getting that or not it's there The idea was to find a way to for users and the ideas that came off when talking with people were firstly to set up a web page but targeted towards users maybe it could be something like games.devian.net or something for the beginning but it's not for developers it's just for users including screenshots and descriptions of the games and maybe forums something like that to promote them Another idea would be to use depth tags with some easy way or some tool to simplify its usage In fact a first skeleton of that tool was presented by Enrico in his conference about depth tags Of course we should try to develop at some point a way to develop the screenshots and some days in case we want it's not really that clear and what I think it's important is that we have the same back end in all this stuff I mean I don't think it's a wise idea to have three different databases with classifications or like that So we're probably using depth tags for all the classifications which is really good to appropriate At some point we will want to find a way to provide screenshots to the packages which is not really that clear right now and it's often on all this Well you could write articles for Debeday as well like you already did and for Quadsamp again Yeah We cannot tell the users A, V, Debeday Debeday is syndicated by Etubuntu so if you write nice articles then users start discovering especially the same user But there is a progression in time you cannot tell oh look at Debeday or Panadoy two years ago No but it's the point it's just so that it's not an alternative to this complimentary I think it's a good idea to try to promote games with To me it's also the question who is doing this work I don't think it makes sense to be a developer doing web pages so while trying to find someone who is doing web staff Well find that person and we'll assign that person so much work I won't be able to take you No seriously It's a problem of manpower actually and people are interested in this We need a database and something like that for these web pages you can't do one page per page but we need to do this through some well structured and information like that so it can be generated and presented in different ways possibly and we looked up for other means too and Bruno was suggesting that the page should be interactive so we want to get used to it There's a French website called Jolib.net which is about free games which already has quite a nice engine for that maybe it would be an idea to contact them and ask if I think there is already some great side about like fresh made game game or other settings which I think we have to accept instead of all parameters we need a lot of manpower The problem, I mean I agree with that but first I want to I think it would be nice to have a web page regarding games in Denial not just generally against Linux For example I just imagine a Russian happy penguin and ask them to add the Denial when the game is protected and create a page where the user will be able to see for the games that are protected Do they have something similar for other distributions I don't think so But in any case it takes us to the other thing I mentioned before they will have their own databases their own backends if we want to support web tags and a global way of having screenshots for example in the future we might be able to add them to synaptic or I mean they won't change their backends for us I think it would be better at least to try to design something that will suit our infrastructure for the beginning it might be a web page later it could be a web tool or it can be different frontends but I would think it would be interesting to support web tags and a unified way of having screenshots on some inside Denial We can answer the question is there someone in this room willing to supervise and work all these plans but someone should be in charge for at least supervising them Yeah, how about that Yes, for the web page I don't have any problem but we have no television Do you want to do the next one if nobody wants to say anything more about this No, nothing Yeah, okay We got that from the first one Yeah, it's okay and then another point we were discussing how to improve support for developers that means adding more game developers tools as you can already as a clear example of it and how to attract users attention there are many users extending games making more for quake and things like that if we provide them with the proper tools we will just have lots of levels and lots of game stations and in the game I don't know who put this in the wiki but it makes sense I think probably Bruno right who actually what he indicated no, there was some Dutch Bruno one of the three Billy's I can't we're very good sorry if you're watching okay it's okay I know that Bruno has looked at it but decided to not pick it up for some technical reasons but this Dutch guy did it and now we have that he was awesome any thoughts on this okay this one now some legal stuff and we have to quite quick because most of that is problems that do exist that we have right now but they're not so helpful in the VOF so it's first we have to find suitable licenses for the media not out against right now usually upstream it's not very conscious of what the license is or what legal stuff it's about and we usually have to recommend some licenses and right now there's no recommending usually meat or gpm but it doesn't really apply to media contents how can you apply to the gpm to a gpg a graphic or something like that what's the source some weeks ago there was a very heavy discussion on deviant legal about the applicability of gpm to music tracks so we'll have to find some suitable licenses to recommend upstream we don't even know right now it's creating commons it's valid for deviant repositories or not some of the games have managed to wait in a new queue so probably in a couple of weeks we'll find out if it's accepted or rejected then what can we go on about gtk radiant bruno confirmed me that he was the one who wrote in the wiki and the point was that he wanted to get more users interested in game development like making maps and things like that but he doesn't have an idea how to reach users good job it would be important to have say younger people or children again your consumer game consumer game look deeper at the technology well yes we agree but how do we do that if we had if we had the tools inside deviant but already packaged and if we had a web page for users it would be quite straightforward to just add an extension to that like a developer's corner for users or something like that I mean it says step for the futures not like we're going to do that in two weeks but I think it's usable in the future but we need to package more yes okay now we have to I've been in the BOF for trade marks this afternoon and I don't think we have to decide any policy on this but just to say that we have some there are lots of free games out there that have trade mark issues that can be a couple of issues but they're not copied they're just using these days characters they're using Warner's characters like right now for example we have in the in the repositories we have Super Mario Chronicles that it's not from the games team but it's there and it uses Mario characters from Tony and that's how Nintendo sorry sorry Nintendo if Mr. Nintendo is hearing he will be angry with me and there are some games out there using the characters for or things like that we will have to decide on what to do about this and I asked this afternoon I had Jackson suggested that for a moment we should probably avoid all the companies that we know are enforcing the removal of the characters like probably Disney and we should just keep the rest unless they complain and then remove it if we go to any streams we will probably end up not completing any games because it can be seen as that as well but any thoughts on this and this is why we drifted from time to time when there were tyrants on PA games okay we drifted was because they showed advertisements we drifted wasn't that package we drifted the rest right and the problem we drifted wasn't advertisements on the road it's not why it's removing that although a good reason to approach it actually today the stream are working on re-creating new facts so they are working on re-working the graphics so are the characters re-creating from scratch clean and fast we did that we reached the stream is very nice there was that problem also in stepmania stepmania couldn't enter debian but it couldn't enter debian because the graphics and the layout was very similar to that of the revolution it was not a copy it was just re-drawn but it was so similar so it would be great right since it seems to me that this is a recurring problem do we have some file or some log where we write these issues down with references where it has been discussed but I think we should do that to have a reference if a new problem comes up so that we can read the log where we had a similar problem at that time and there it was decided like that is there an unsuitable page on the road? okay so we should promote that we actually used that but we kind of put the stuff which we analyzed and we realized this is not going to end up in unstable or well in debian and we don't package it at all so if we at some point reached the conclusion that it was in debian and we have to remove it like it's the case currently for read-read then probably if it doesn't if Apsin doesn't do anything about it probably we should also have that to do with it which is better about that the page doesn't seem to contain packages which had problems what had been fixed so we should create another page we should promote that every yeah so we can it's more visible what we have done yeah cool that's interesting because actually this way you can actually point people to say look what we have done we actually are active we're not just saying we're in debian games we're doing nothing we're just playing games all the time playing games it's testing it's part of the process there was an interesting issue with some of the team packages there's a lot of discussion about what we couldn't do whether we'd be infringing 90 softwares copywriters and trademarks with the characters but the actual names and behavior of the characters were encoded in the code bar and the resources so it was very difficult for freedom to actually create novel new characters suitably different when their speed and headpoints and projectiles were already GPL by any surprise which is sort of thought different but couldn't be upstream to rename the characters or whatever because they in principle upstream also runs in the same trouble as we would do if we yeah of course upstream would be the same problem of course so just turn with Mario's turn yes but at CC in Mario it might be easy because it's just replacing a character if you are talking about a visual adventure of today using the characters and the plot of Star Trek it's just impossible you have to replace them all again but here you are well you can do some kind of smart software and replace everything with Star Trek with Star Trek or something yeah that's what I mean that's probably an infringement on the trademark it's the same as if another company made a different show with the same plot and so so that would bring us legal problems probably yes of course so the next point should be and here it's quite a difficult point for me it's what to do about remakes of games remakes of games usually mean there's some really nice games from the 80's 90's that some of the people have made a copy of them it's not in city but also some more exact copies like three or like a base of channels yeah there are many groups out there remaking stuff from the Spectrum, Amstrad and so of course with newer graphics and the newer computers but they are a copy an exact copy from the game I mean the characters are the same the graphics are not copies but mostly the maps are the same even though those are popularly considered as free as abandonware they do have a copyright owner and all those copyright owners actually force you know, authorizing trademarks so I'd say at this point let's defer this decision to FTP Masters and let them act if they see fit that's actually unproblematic because it falls under the domain of re-intermenting for better interoperability that's probably developed between the copyright law, the U.S. and the community okay so we'll defer that to the FTP Masters okay and there was nothing more okay the last one was quite important do you want to talk about that? yeah we have a small problem in Germany with some CD windows because we have some games where there are two problems in Germany one there's some kind of stupid EOS protection law which forces everyone who sells CDs or something like that to get a kind of stamp which age the games fit if you have don't have a suitable for kids older than 6 or something like that we have heard definition only suitable for above 80 healthy we are we are we are searching for some kind of solution because there must be some kind of exception exception exception exception exception exception exception for windows which has no EOS protection law so children could play mind sweep or something like that there's some kind of exception if games are not the major part of it and not advertise or something like that so that problem could be solved we just need to find the right paragraph into law which we haven't done so yet another bigger problem is that we have some games at least in unstable stable too like grade 2 or next week in the life next year is not yet which are which have already been some kind of well put on an index so they it wasn't all the law but it's still valid so they may not be advertised or sold to anyone below 80 so technically speaking I think it's two of our three games spread around the whole archive which we went TVNC DVDs sold to kids or we have online shop so that's a counterpoint it's a county to make it legal a vendor could remove those packages which is a little bit complicated because it affects I think four CDs because the packages are spread over the CDs and do you have a list of affected packages? I have it at home I forgot it because I'm the same class for video versions for the whole index and all the bands are limited to a certain version which has been verified so for example if someone had put the latest version of a video on the index it doesn't apply to VHS it needs to re-evaluate and it's extremely unlikely that any of these institutions which haven't put on the index has actually evaluated the GPL version so a detective base doesn't even apply they have to re-evaluate it for the version that we patched Yes, definitely So are these bands applied because it's one point what applies it's another point what the rentals think applies it's what's pretty hard to convince them that they may still sell CDs which have the KDE games without getting those as a real protection label or like I said it might be very hard I still sell them sell them with grade 2 on the discs or like I said because it's a patched version which is not written on the index So you're seriously telling that we have a record of CDs renders in Germany which refuse to ship the CDs because of Yeah So there's one major when well the techings people in Germany they are more or less two renders one has made his own images more or less and I'm not sure if he cares about it but it's his problem because he makes the CDs mine is what's it called so what is it about it's another renderer that's contacted us and that's a we're able to sell and we figure it out since we released just a couple of months ago because of the game platform and what are the possible solutions for that well put those games on the CD and sell the CDs to have them or at least create the CDs, the official CDs so the most games are on one CD so the renders just need to patch one image Yeah it makes sense but that should only apply to contrast and not free because for all the work the doom which is like a fat doom and it's only like someone's on the spot I mean there's content which is actually banned because it's only available in country or not free but there are three games which actually have that kind of action and to be honest we don't shoot Quake 2 which installs the data from the original Quake 2 which you bought in the shop I'm so glad Is it more complicated? Yes We don't ship it We don't ship it We should not ship it No, it's a contract we don't ship it but there's a doom engine to it I mean most of the doom engines still have the Nazi material in the engine and I don't know if I'm correct the commercial versions of doom but I haven't heard anyone complain about that at all The solution But removing single-packed responses to these is all as easy You can just remove it and we generate the index but we name the image Actually I'm responsible for dropping one of the ones So the best solution would be to offer some kind of script where the vendor can say I want to remove this and that package and a couple of minutes later he has some kind of specialist I have another idea not re-generate the index but replace them by some active file and also you want active, you're not active and you can if you have some dependencies if you make some tasks also in this package this would not break the task So one of the packages effective has any universal dependency No, I mean if we would like to do some task games and this task has dependency from a lot of stuff and in case we would do it in the future but we would need to regenerate anyway because it contains 75 Okay, now you have to to supply it I was thinking about this kind of script where the vendor says replace those packages as a most general solution because if we now make a special German month version or something like that a couple of hours later you'll have a really a really random idea to replace the viable package or something like that so that might be a more general solution would we use that access? I think the only thing we can do in the demo games team is to identify the games, to mark them as such and to defer the technical means to the demo CD team explaining the problem saying look we have marked and identified these in the packages please do so that CD will help an easy job to replace them I'll talk to Steve Yes, thank you Okay, any slide? No You have that here you go Yeah, but it's I'm taking care of most of this not such a typical thing and I want to to be able to classify the games into some different ways first of all well I said to all of you before to be able to find games more easily like I want to play this kind of game which are available that's probably all DevTax stuff but at some point we'll have to define a proper classification for DevTax for games because the important one is really so primitive that arcade and adventures and I don't know it really doesn't classify games to war but I think we at some point we'll have to redo the classification to suit our needs I also want to I want to use DevTax for our problem please I want to be able to classify the games regarding technical requirements at least if they rely on accelerating 3D or something like that I don't know I mean there's attack for 3D but it doesn't it doesn't show any difference between normal city and I mean there are three games that do not need an accelerating car all games and even do for example it's a 3D game and it's working really old hardware okay so so we should have attack like it needs a bit of acceleration it needs sound acceleration I don't know but to provide some technical requirements that all of this are not, the attacks are not created so I mean at some point we'll have to decide what we want at the record we I want you to these two last two to clarify the scales and more classification I'm just telling you it's not a team's task it will probably be done with Linux probably Debian Network and Debian Junior I want you to clarify the skills you need to play against mostly for children some games require to be able to read and write or you must use a joystick and a keyboard and maybe it's not available for, I mean it's not easy for 8 years old or 10 years old to play again with that because they don't have the skills yet they have to develop themselves so I want to establish a classification in this this is a technical a very objective classification like the children needs to be able to read and write or something like that and this is probably going to be done by teachers probably from Linux if I'm able to find some other teachers out of Spain it will be much easier because it will be more international but at least and then I want to do some kind of normal classification but I want to do it in the most objective way as possible I don't want to say this game is for about 12 years old or things like that I want to classify games as this game contains violence this game contains sexism and things like that yes so that teachers and educators and parents and so on are able to decide which games they will allow the children to play and so on I don't want to decide to do decisions instead of the parents but I want to provide the proper information this is to be done by teachers and educators for the first four points I agree with you we need to set up some class scores and decide on a vocabulary which tags which hierarchy we actually want to use and give some guidelines when to use which tags in most cases it will be obvious and unobvious I agree with the vocabulary about the moral classification I remember some card with Bruno I had before and I agree with him that there is absolutely no point in us doing so because there is no way in doing that objective it really depends on the country you live in it depends on the region you are on it depends on so many factors and I see no point how we as studying games team a globally working group can sensibly put effort here in doing something something usable here we can try to we can try to make it objective but then I don't think it will be usable because the people who are using this supposed to be objective texts won't find them usable because they don't fit their regional, cultural I think it's doable and also I think it's it's needed I mean if you if you want if you let your children to play with games you need to know which games they are playing and also teachers for example for Linux they want to promote, they are promoting games and they need to know which games teachers can use and not and things like that I've been talking with people in Linux in the education a lot of Linux in the education why don't we actually pass the that's what I'm doing to them that's what I'm doing that case would be that you would actually have a classification a moral classification according to the Spanish culture no because if you would take for instance the Arabic values or I don't know some other countries values then you would be in a total defeat but we will have to start we also have contacts with the German teachers but at some point it would be a matter of adding text according to what our priorities in our places are I mean I cannot do anything but at least I'm already more in this part there is some values that are shared by everybody that says I think I also think you should do it if the Spanish people will do it it would be nice for the first part if there are other people who completely disagree we can try to discuss this later on yeah we can do other tasks that complement the first one for cultures could we do it as an additional yeah as I love that text and use more people I think that should be integrated we would need to do that because we already have the some months ago we had that discussion in the mailing list and Rico won't relate that to us to have a non really objective classification the last part would definitely be in a matter of not in the proper terms probably I I think we as students shouldn't try to make that kind of moral judgment because I don't think that it's doable in a objective way and anyone remembers the discussion about what what are you would you like to do kind of discussions on a regular basis hi I'm your cameraman so Keta has this nice feature that it has facets that it's basically different views regarding the text so you can probably have one facet for each kind of culture or whatever and people caring about those moral values or that culture could probably make the text acceptable or not but it's something they can manage and I think it's something it's not that shouldn't be covered by the game which is pretty much multi-cultural and have different points of view on what they would I don't think just the tagging would go on and just not so discussion if there are some texts that are switching from minute to minute then we should propose something else make that a depth text hierarchy on its own and keep it completely separate from the clearly technical we don't have to do that in private for RICO too RICO won't really object to that but in fact I'm meeting this classification too I'm working with Linux people and I'm gonna do it if we don't want to be involved as a games team I'm doing it anyway the games team I'm just asking if the games team as a whole is willing to participate in it Linux is helping and maybe I'm there too and then in junior work so it's a matter of if we aren't interested in this too or not ok, hold for a while who's interested in working on that sorry no, how to do that it's so our classification can't be really objective but so for backgrounds and it's it's too religious there are some standards for classifying more stuff so we could rely on some of them some have appeared in the discussion we made in many lists and there are some work for for classifying films and books and so on can we move on if the games team is gonna be involved yeah next one this is a lucky one sorry, I need to go we have a problem we don't have a good way of handling the queue of packages we need to upload for the for the maintenance part we don't usually know the systematic way of handling our uploads and from what I know from the sponsors part they don't really know what needs to be uploaded and what has already been what is in current state so may I ask you what would be your way of sponsoring that was my question you point me to a DCC file a DCC file I check it and you you point me to a DCC ok, so it's a usual way it's a usual way no, he wants me using still version in years no, I never actually said that I said that it's easier to get it that way, but if you if you prefer to have a source package then ok, I'm fine with that so it was simple so when I had time to deal with you the fantastic variant communication problems when I tried to talk to you about this, I told you I don't mind the sponsor because I was in the channel because maybe I'm for me she needed help with developing stuff and it was ok, but then I have to go a new way that it was not for me no, wait what is the question who is this who is not the devian developer answer who is the new mate, actually we should actually those games that the game doesn't fire up for those people who are processing the new mate that's all we want to bring fastly forward but seriously this room is actually sponsoring devian game teams upload too really ok four sponsors in this room I've generally gone elsewhere from IAPO from my point of view it sometimes didn't kill to see which package needs to be uploaded because if I'm not pinged by you or you to get some DSC file to upload is the same sense I just don't know what needs to be uploaded because I might I think the problem is most of the people who is building the sponsor it's not following what happened in the team because there are a lot of small tasks in devian so I don't mind the sponsor I think it's not the same problem but you have no time to check what is going on I have to say to them in the past we tried to use the forum to track you out I mean it's never work before at least but I suggest we use the motto when we are unable and then I think it will be easy to create a script and we pull the repository to find which package and not in devian and our should be so the name I'm just to prepare the code to my job and then for example as we start we can have a code with a link code and a link to the DCS file all packages in mantis are not in devian is the upload to devian plus mantis to devian package mantis.devian.net the link packages to devian automatically which is great I think the thing with tracker I actually tried to build to follow the tracker which was it might be unfortunate or something but last two times when I tried to spawn a sub-optical package I see the package as an entry there I look at the package compile it I was just about to upload it and then I find it has already been uploaded but let's go into the next package and then it happens again and again and at some point I got bored and just rejected it that's why I think I think it's like devian did that to be more more it could be run like this somewhere else may I suggest something have you learned about this one this review it's kind of hard it's brown but you see for each package here some icons which indicates it needs more work or it's a new package what we're basically using it for is if you go to there you can have here a source package which you can run the jet on it so are you calling me to and if you're trying to the point of this is that we have here some kind of form so you can comment on it what's wrong and what's not wrong and to use that as an additional we have here a vincian report now I that's not really because it's just a bad distribution vincian doesn't know about that it's unfortunate and we have the source package on page so you can just look for example at the devian copyright so this is what I this was one of my main big contributions to it do we want something like this in the devian why is that not added from that part well I can't explain it to you because the code which is used there is so utterly crap and I it wasn't meant to do this to improve and rewrite and everything that but I got bored and lost energy and it's my it's clearly my fault that this is not on a mantras and I'm willing to want to do that but I just need someone who kicks me in the ass to continue working on that that's that's the main problem I don't tell it to to I see the worst product not the most clever idea no seriously I would seriously need help to improve and develop this and I'd be of course interested in having the dementia one problem this is a more private application but we're using a postgres have you ever been in a mobile talk do you own a small talk there today it's a it's a repository of packages well devian information if you weren't figuring out the video or something when it's done they're basically creating a gigantic diadase base for package information and other sorts of information so it will have a history of limited models like limited version limited alpha and that'll be a good place to if you were rewriting a significantly it would be worth looking at whether mold is a super backend there would be a lot of cross pollination make a note and look a little bit more I might be interested in helping you with this I may point to a possible problem because of the nature of our packages which are usually bigger than regular packages we might end up with some really busy and really space hungry review are you answering I was pointing out that due to the nature of our packages you might end up with a software which is actually space hungry this space hungry because usually if you have those packages unpacked and so on and so forth or indeed 66 gigabytes isn't there a fully unpacked archive from Indian runs I think somewhere and there was a discussion again with the motor about how a lot of different projects could really use an unpacked archive so they might be a centralized unpacked archive service but I think the game would agree but that would be the official archive again but you wouldn't need another official archive that could be done with mentors too because mentors which are checked by developers for console upload and so on it would maybe be easier for them to check the packages directly without having to download 250 megabytes or something like that when only the engine copyright is important or something like that but that would be an impact on the machine yeah I don't think it would be helpful to get the space format possible yeah I think so that could be done quite easily it's not my world everywhere so we are constantly running low on funds glad to hear that but maybe I'm who is warning the mentors to be at who is responsible for it I'm very sorry to say that I think none of the persons running the mentors to be at this conference isn't it related to Daniel Palman no if you look here it's Christopher and much more than anyone else I think Daniel I think Daniel might have handed it over because at some time it was related to it yeah are you talking about Pantera yes yes and the mentors are recently operating so okay seriously I hear that you think that this revenue kind is useful for living games I think it would be it is it's useful for them or not does this let's say a page for a package does it refresh or purge when it's uploaded or something like that I have installed a cron job download packages files and compares the versions we would have to tweak that but I think it should be more of an easy script okay well exactly that's the point it still needs a lot of hand work of running and I'm still busy with running this so I seriously need help to set that up on another machine someone who has no fear to look at the patent code and look at the patent code and is able to to assist me with setting it up and managing it because I don't have the energy to do do you want these mentors or do you want it separately I haven't talked with the mentors guys at all I think it's I'd say interested people should contact me after this because we are going into a variety of questions now and I'm happy to show the code and contact more people can you write your email so it remains on the video of course okay we know so the idea is that we are going to receive a server for the VM games here from the console but it's not ready yet because there are some formalities I don't think this will show on the video in this science but if we want this in mentors then I don't know maybe listen can you speak your language for that sorry wait so without a system like this be enough sometimes I was thinking at least of some kind of Q the problem right now is that the patents are being sponsored at least I'm talking for me my friends so I'm not relying on the team for sponsoring my packages but hey do you have a minute but this is this is not very welcoming to new managers in the team so there should be a more systematic way of handling this so you would want something like every new packageer is coming in the team and you just say to him when when you're done upload it here and somebody will check it and will spin it out if you have some LinkedIn errors or warnings and then it's cute all the packages which are appearing here are to be reviewed and eventually uploaded the packages which are already uploaded they have a concept here called archived so if the package is done or something then we mark it as archived and we're done with it so this is actually our office okay so it's actually a queue it's a queue yes so it's sorted by upload date or by what several other things this heart for example says that we have already two advocates packages look because we have some strange policy requirements the two developers have to say yes it's okay just upload it the this thing means it's not yet at all in the archive so it's a completely new package if it's like that and it already is in the package it just needs work on it we have some symbols does it have a standalone technique with the ones that are already in it you can dept of different uploads and so if you have two uploads you can dept of the two uploads and by design it is possible to it does not care about the version of it at all so you upload the same package with the same version of it but you can still dept of it I think this is an important assumption because it won't work for mentorship because every upload and then you still have another version of it this is specifically in it's important you can I always do it I never use Windows I just keep on saying that so as far as I understand it there is nothing related to games in searcher review so we will have Minutes as well as build stats this, more and so on and we keep on spreading many many informations many tools and maybe it could be good some simple information or a good base to add tools like that and so on so maybe we could sync together with other team the more team mentors team and so on to work that out together because like you said you won't look back at your code so maybe we could have more general both or something like that to work that out it's clear in my thought that I can continue that I wasn't going to teach at you but maybe we should coordinate and not keep separate tools but also more or less long term solutions so would it be a good idea as a short term solution if you maybe just create a wiki page which you want to upload which we have spent a few you know why I wrote this because in Ubuntu before we had this we were doing this on a wiki page and I was so pissed about wiki on a wiki page so now we know how we can motivate you to use the wiki page but it's just for a short term would it be a possibility to just use the main list like what's the first sponsorship like the mentors list does another new list no no no the same way you post a message saying in the package the list we already had like something like that something we're using in the picture bazaar team there are also quite some members who don't have upload rights and those who have we want to coordinate we have on any of this nice web space there where we can collect and prepare packages everyone they've been gasting and is able to put their packages and say if you want to have something upload it just put the package there and ping someone on ISC to please upload it I think it's much better to upload it to mentors more than anything because you have to upload it upload your package sign so you can be sure that it's me who uploaded the package not someone well actually you don't have actually that risk if alias is compromised you can upload you in that web space of package games so what's worse your machine being compromised or alias being compromised at least I don't know but some people want to sponsor me practices not only games they have required me to sign my practices to know that it's me who wants to I don't know if it's important or not ok next one now again we we're nearly there no previous first today we'll have to decide who wants from all the stuff we have said we'll have to decide our goals for Lenny we'll see before Lenny and what's our wish list what would like but on long term any ideas on this and for some of the policy for games and so on we should I mean it should be ready for Lenny and so on any other goals I haven't seen this until now Bruno is asking if we have that package review in the way of the very beginning of the game steam that probably means review no we didn't because when I basically would need a machine where I can set this up we have thought about that I think that but I didn't never get to the anyway so you know maybe we'll decide on the goals on the many list with everyone thinking we'll do it more time I had a list of goals for stretch which we already got some and you realize to have an explicit goal list to see if not everything began so strapped we just someone commented to me that as the game steam we shouldn't really be that conscious about releases because it's not really that stable stuff or anything like that I don't know what you think about it I think we already have to discuss in this book on various terms of set of things and processes and stuff we want to achieve before Lenny and it's not really bound to Lenny but this complete depth-text hierarchy and this vocabulary we need to work on that's an important goal the review in Swansea where it was a very important thing the process for getting all packages into backpacks is a very important thing I think we're already pretty busy with goals for Lenny already all those goals we can consider them as goals for Lenny or more or less don't run I mean as you said before we don't have many human power so we should prioritize them somehow or something like that I think the stable release of Lenny is not for us not so important since people who won't play with today's games we don't understand the release I think we don't have to care too much about Lenny release we have to the most articulate game as possible in this game and also the free will come unless we have done as much as we can to be together we can the good point about caring for stable is that it provides a time stamp and how these people are well in the future sometimes if you don't have a deadline everything delays too much sometimes and I want stable I think I kind of agree with you we have to be prepared to support in stable if it makes it so we have to be the stable release team if we weren't interested in dealing with binocular news and living transitions and things like that they would say we should have loads for experiments if we were never trying to get something to stay we'd later go and release this for me in Lisbon it shouldn't take like three years to go inside and the last one is some other stuff I want to for example we need a logo for the team we still need it I want to have teachers of the game so we need a logo we want to send a logo for the team I don't know how to handle this we're not deciding it here of course but at some point tried to do something and it was not quite complete yes we have two logos actually but we have to kind of merge them because the idea behind the logo was to be to suggest that we support games which are action kind of games but also non-violent games and things like that so the idea was to have a night chest night and a joystick and the deviant logo so I don't know we have two logos in I'd like to think the joystick one would be better maybe a game I'd like to have a joystick ah logo somewhere online yes no no no package games and I think the joystick works quite well because that swirl can go on the store that's my all about it that is the worst one I love that one ok look at the other one the problem with this is that you think that one well maybe it's smaller SPG my friend or maybe try to use some other browser oh yeah it's always like this it's always like this hey sorry it's 7 we already spoke and we came to the joystick idea too I think it's really understandable by anyone that's very strong symbol for games like the machine in the bar that's something very good so you decide for the joystick 10 ok go ahead there ok watch there joystick start if I actually didn't say that I want this to be final because I actually wanted to merge the night in there so I would I will round the stick a bit further to the right or it looks like it's more surrounding it than not cutting it yeah like it's cutting it in also in here the right part of the inner swirl is cutting the neck of the night I don't know you do it because I worked on that for I think a whole weekend ok so if you want to do it some other way I won't mind yeah I hope these are both proof of concept so if we agree that the joysticks they are a proof of concept and we should work on a joystick ok object of the joystick I just prefer this one so gaming is hard to say because I'm creating one no you can use your phone no no actually I wasn't quite asked that actually I wasn't quite asked that actually I wasn't quite asked that actually I wasn't quite asked that we have a two option board so it's there's really a third option it's not there but you would use that instead of the joystick but you could focus to none of that so we could use it right so I have three options anyone has ok well ok who's for this one, who's for the island logo who will accept that ok well anyone for the gamepad gamepad instead of the joystick gamepad competition pro instead of the the pro the main problem which I faced I tried to do that logo was trying to find free content ok let's decide first what we want to get and then how we get it but I mean I would prefer to set up like the concept and when we decide the concept we will fix I know many others who would do it for us or probably you too or something like that would you prefer conceptually not just this except the logo but the concept I don't know it's against the gamepad ok so he's for the joystick or he's for both or the other instead of ok ok you all prefer the joystick to the gamepad and he you have the rest ok well not for the joystick then he's suggesting looking for blue card stuff but that's in the gamepad and I want to stick to the concept here ok we stick to the concept I have to suggest something again cameraman ok so that we can you can be seen there is this beauty nice page that it's called deviant art deviant art ok don't remember exactly deviant art and it allows you to enter a contest for art some images that you need or something like that for deviant and yeah I should go should be should we propose a contest yeah why not ok then we can propose a contest give some time and if nothing interesting appears we'll stick to the joystick idea yeah I agree with that ok and then I think the rest of the points just commenting then we should find a way to we don't have artists right now in the games here at least we don't have people who are exclusively artists so I think we at some point we'll have to replace lots of stuff I often have to do that like non-reconditions I usually work with upstream anyway but we should find a way this is not exclusive to the games team deviant games team but also to the free world but we should find a way to attract artists to the free software world and deviant in particular also I'm quite concerned about inter-albumization of games which is not easy because they usually don't do great yes thanks and they do not use it for games like fish fillets you would have to translate the audio stream it can work with the audio stuff yes of course and interestingly we have check audios for fish fillet what did you say that before someone from Austria was starting with doing terminal language audio tracks for fish fillets this work in progress already so this is not something we're going to solve here there must be a way to handle this I would personally prefer to try to convince upstreams to stick to PO files to get text and so on because it's what translators are used to it doesn't make sense at all to provide an a break wait a second I'm very used to upstreams to inventing the wheel and making yet another get text but not quite like get text took me a while to get that through to the vessel team that they should switch to PO finally that is so we should try to convince all our upstreams to switch to PO or at least something that the translators can handle easily with PO4A something that usually translators they have their own dictionaries and their programs and everything set up so that you can automatize a lot of stuff if you introduce and get another format you will break everything for them so at least it's so important to have a different format there should be a translator between PO files and whatever but I think we should try to stick as much as possible which is not always possible because as I said some stuff some games have audio lines which are hard to translate and also many games include the text as graphics so this okay I was until 50 seconds ago that Fillet was using that to translate and stuff like that would we make something like a group team policy that if something like this comes up or this send a mail on the list and say well this is I have found this and if anyone wants to do it can we do it because usually you want games localized because most of the time some of them are targeted children and stuff like that I remember correctly I did so when we adopted Chris Fillet really? yes I'm going to show you about it because by the way it's not there but at some point at the beginning of the group I tried to set up some wiki pages or some way of when someone wants to do some stuff for the group we don't really have any easy way to know to do list of the different packages the status of the different packages how to get involved and so the translation stuff could be there like would it make sense to come up with something like that not only the automatic 50 minutes not only the the automatic stuff that LinkedIn and so on but also some other text like I had this in my to-do list for a bucket or this bucket we should change this we don't have time and so would it make sense the wiki idea has proved not to work because it's all stuff there and nobody has updated anything and it's really not worthy does it make sense to try to do something like that or make it to a to-do file in the package itself I would suggest to add wiki like notes in the SND step page so people can add a comment this is going to be about 150 that would also be a we could also make a a to-do file too that you actually duplicate the BTS you already have the owner possibility to set the BTS so if you have a bug in the one fixing you'll say owner me and that's all using dvm-2u file is quite easy you have nothing to do all the things are doing the back magic for you and installing install it in usershaddock package to-do.vm so that's quite cool for group work but maybe not going through the mailing list and annoying all the group but only your commentators for this particular package and it's quite easy that you have the text file very secure as well that's easy we could do a to-do file in the directory yes I can add the to-do file ok we can do that anything more no to the last one ok anything else ok thanks we'll finish then nice to meet you just one question who's seriously interested in getting regular to work for the dvg team and is willing to spend time in python spills he's a bold guy but willing to in fact I I know so much time me neither that's the main problem I don't promise anything but I'm just I don't have access to a directory I test to be able to first install it you will be expelled from it but the repository is a visitor and a launchpad just a visitor again now Rizzo it's asking what about hopefully I trade one part yeah I've talked about that before for the moment we're moving into those contents that are protected by trademarks or copyrights that are being enforced we're trying to avoid it that means for example not listening to characters in the games and so on and those who we don't know that are actively being enforced we are including it it does point in this in the archive without being enforced will protect us against the suite that's what I and Jackson said this afternoon so his suggestion was to avoid the contents that are being enforced and those who aren't go as if nothing happened like putting them in the archive and okay if the FTP masters object yeah FTP masters or if they have to remove it it would be new to me if FTP masters would do some serious trademarks shakes as far as I know they do copyright shakes if they have pointed to say anyway I and Jackson's suggestion was to of course to avoid those who are being enforced but to just ignore those matters that we don't know are being enforced such as such as you it's important I agree with you but we have some games waiting to be banned to verify that that stuff I think the best is to open the thread on the list okay that's also a few more on that subject really? you don't want to say anything else on that subject? right now the policy is ignoring the trademarks except the oldest one I think that's kind of digging in practice yeah yeah yeah I mean you know so we're keeping just another policy anything more? I'm just asking if he has anything to add no that was cute okay