 You're welcome back and thank you for your patience. We're now joined by Mark Amadza, Senior Communications Officer, Yerga Africa, to be looking at the off-season elections. Remember that yesterday or so, the stakeholders signed a PISA code, you know. So it's a normal thing nowadays that PISA codes are being signed and what are we looking at for Kogi, Bayelsa and Emo state. Now what are the lessons most importantly are we taking to this off-season election? Those are the things that we intend to discuss right now with our guest. Good morning and welcome to the program, Mark. Good morning. Okay, we understand that the PISA code was signed but even then there are some governors that did not attend the event and all that way. Did you have more information about what really went down? No, we do not have more information. That's what's already out there in the public domain regarding their attendance and those who make it. But then it's important to say the PISA code, which has become a tradition preceding election, depends a lot more on a gentleman agreement and the willingness to follow it is not legally enforceable. And that's perhaps the reason why some candidates choose to go for the signings and others decide not to. But in your experience, do you think it has made any significant impact since this PISA code, they began to sign this PISA code before elections? It's very hard to say it has made any impact. We can't say what it does because in many cases there's self-violence in many elections and so where there's no violence, we can't actually book the entire PISA code. But I think importantly, it says a lot about our political culture and it gives our politicians where we approach elections as we do in a war and a win at all costs attitude. And that behavior is one of the reasons why we see things like efforts like PISA codes being made to get them to behave properly, to ensure that they and their supporters obey the law and order and not cause disruptions. It also says a lot about how we enforce our laws in terms of prosecuting those who engage in political violence, those who also benefit from political violence because oftentimes someone who is engaging in political violence may not even be the one directly benefiting. The candidates that benefit from this sort of violence, there's no punitive measures being made out to them and it only reinforces bad behavior. Okay, but especially this Kogi, Bayelsa and Imo state said to be very volatile states. Maybe that's even one of the reasons why we even have offices and elections in those states. How would you assess the, well you're not a security expert but I can just ask you, the level of preparedness, okay let's leave the security aspect, the level of preparedness by all the relevant stakeholders including Yaga Africa. So I can speak to the security aspect for at least one state, Imo state where we are observing elections and we recently released reports about the preparations for the elections. For months, perhaps a couple of years before the election, there's this climate of insecurity in the state. So and that is no feeding into or shaping up the elections or how citizens approach the elections. So one of the things we keep, of course we hear all the time, security agencies, particularly the police, which is the lead security agency around elections talk about the preparedness they have regarding the elections. We hope that the fact that it's just relatively, I see is what just relatively three states, rather than 36, it will be easier for the police to ensure that the law and order is maintained for these elections. Regarding preparing preparations, well we have seen efforts by INEP to ensure that logistic are in place but I think in the end, it will be what we see on election day that will be the final determinant of how prepared they work for the elections. Again, being optimistic that this logistics will not be a problem is a perennial headache for INEP and for voters but they are often better when there are off-site elections because easier to manage for a state or two than manage for the whole country. So we are looking at all of this, we are observing the preparedness and hoping that at this time all the stakeholders issues around logistics, the deployment of materials, security are being implemented well or perfectly so that voters are encouraged to come out and know that elections will go smoothly. Well, from the international observers and also Yaga Africa that has been observing elections and trying their best to make it more transparent, it was that INEP needed to do a little bit more to restore the confidence of the people in the electioneering process and all that. Now INEP has just come out to say that transmission, electronic transmission of results or collation of results is illegal. Now that puts a question mark. We also heard from one analysis that the people that might be coming out to do to actually vote on election day might be just as slow as 30 percent of the population that will come out in these states to vote. Is that a true assessment and what do you think about the statement of INEP that electronic collation is illegal? First, I think I disagree that electronic transmission of results is illegal. It is not mandatory but it's legal because this was a battle that we fought together with INEP to ensure that the electoral act 2022 included a clause that allows INEP to transmit electronic results. It doesn't mandate them and that is a gap that we hope that in the next set of electoral reforms is fixed. Because that gap, we saw INEP take advantage of that gap to not transmit results around elections, especially like presidential elections earlier in the year and that really dealt a blow of confidence to voters because we have had INEP multiple times in their own guidelines and various foreign INEP officials from the chairmen say we are going to transmit election results and Nigerian voters went to the polls without hope and that confidence that this time we are all going to be partaking in this collation efforts because we understand that the IRF, the annexing results of INEP is not a collation platform but it's a platform that is intended to increase the confidence of citizens and voters by seeing this election results coming from each polling unit. So unfortunately the Supreme Court has ruled that yes it is not mandatory but then it doesn't mean it's illegal. Now we hope we regarding voter turnout, voter turnout may be that low, it's may be that low. This is a problem we've dealt with over and over in every election. Since we started following voter turnout from 2011, it's been declining. At the general election we had a 26% voter turnout, last 2019 it was 34%. For off-circuit elections in Anambra in 2020 it was as low as 10%. We are hoping that it is higher but again as high it will be, it's there's a question but we have seen there's this diminished citizen trust and confidence in the electoral process and coupled with you know with a with a with a with a hostile climate around with rhetoric by politicians and behavior around violence, it's very likely going to put out voters. Okay so let's just by way of emphasis go back to the elections held earlier this year. What are some of the lessons that Yaga Africa especially learned because you went into the field very confident that you're going to do something and Nigerians will be the better for it. There's going to be transparency and all that and then we saw what we saw. What are these lessons that you learned from the earlier elections that you're taking to the off-season election to make things better? Just to clarify is it lessons for Yaga Africa or is it lessons for or election stakeholders? Well both of them because you were standing in the gap what Yaga Africa is doing was not being done in the electoral process in Nigeria until you showed up so what are the things that you're going to do as Yaga Africa that will affect let's start with Yaga Africa that will affect the election or will make the elections more transparent or better transmitted to the people? Well for one we're still deploying our election observers like I mentioned we're deploying observers in IMO and Kogi deploying our methodology our process and results verification for transparency methodology that looks at the election process on election day and able to make projections on voter turnout and vote for each party and that is a very powerful tool in terms of in terms of their fine the credibility of elections in the last election we first broke the news around the fact that the official results from River State and what we expected from our from our own projections did not tally and that was no corroborated by every person by BBC which look at results I was on the INX Resolving Potter to see and noted the same thing so that we're still going to do that and see me to make our observations and I made them public prior to the elections during the elections and after the elections for for the general for INEC which is the main like as an electromagnet body the first lesson is always been around logistics ensuring that logistics gets to each poll unit as it went due that goes open on time and that all votes so that people who want to vote are able to vote you know in the in the hours of voting but also very very importantly is the work that you need to do to restore confidence that we mentioned earlier keeping to the award we mentioned earlier around electronic transmission of results which INEC is self-contained guidelines they write from the electoral act and then to turn around and not do it and that those kind of actions diminish trust so there's a need for INEC to begin to restore trust by doing what they say they will do in terms of keeping the award when they say they want to start the results they ought to do that yeah well but your role was supposed to make them sit up and do what they're supposed to do but it seems as if they didn't really work in the last election because well some people will put it they still had their way they did what they wanted to do yes what significant impact is what you do going to have or has it been having on the electoral process so we we did call INEC out on that failure to transmit results calling out many many times on different fora different platforms in you know even in conversations with them unfortunately because the law does not mandate INEC to transmit results and that has that has been made clear by the supreme court's ruling on the election petitions that has become a defense that INEC uses and this is why we say we realize that gap in the law and one of the things we hope we push for in the amendment to the electoral acts will be that that gap is closed and we see even the senate itself made that confirmation it's made a call saying that transmission results should be made mandatory so we're still going to be holding INEC accountable calling them out when they need to be called out where we see that there's a failure on their part to do the writings will still make it clear make it known and and we'll still see where this is a it is a gap that needs a legal amendments or no around policy will still push for that to be done how many of these gaps do you see it's just that they're not mandated to transmit electronically or are there some other things that you think should go into the electoral act that we're not or were missed at the last amendment so beyond just electoral because also constitutional so for example around the appointment of INEC of officials into INEC there's a call these are called has been made as far back as 2008 by the just moment wise committee on electoral reforms that the president should not be the one appointing the INEC chairman or chairperson or its commissioners at the national level or the state level and this is even being made clearer recently with the with the appointment of of new electoral committee president electoral commissioners of which at least three have been openly partisan in the recent past as recently the last elections which you know saw how the Senate speedily confirmed them you know did not pay heed to petitions by citizens those and that those are a are a huge red flag for democracy when we begin to appoint such partisan officials into the election money then body so those are kind of gaps we should see this is not just a new thing because when commissioners were appointed last year when they last year we also raise red flags around some of them regarding their past yeah their past we raise red flags and those were ignored and those also played out in the elections what we see for example raising electoral commission in so called to state who was sustained by INEC or at the one in Panama State who unlawfully declared a winner when it was supposed the role of the returning officer and you know that's the matter that is that's still being contended in court those were a red flags we raised you know we also raised those red flags in our election manipulation risk index which we list in February and January February around the risk around the election and what some of the risk got in fact where INEC was captured in some states and all of this played out so it's very very important that these gaps are filled we need to take that away from the present because President is an interested party whether he's contested or not his party I mean he's a politician his party who is an interested party in the elections so the needs need for independent bodies to appoint officials to the election money body and not a interested party in that election or in elections that that body will conduct so how far are you on that how far in the level of engagements and everything that needs to bring that about are you waiting for this election to be over or you're waiting for next year or you've already started the process and if you have how far so far we've already said the process of the engagement say engaging with the national assembly the committees around intellectual health and health representatives who already begin to have conversation with other electoral stakeholders including INEC and INEC security agencies and these conversations will continue we're not going to wait until 2025 for 2026 before this is done we want them to be done as quickly as possible we have led lessons from the previous election amendments even the thousands for a lack of starting early but we also want that those amendments be done as quickly as possible so that they are operationalized and tested because we are going to have more of second elections before 2027 elections we have two government elections next year we have more in 2025 all until 2027 there will be off-circuit elections not just governorship but also legislative elections so it's important that we get these amendments done quickly and that these laws are tested in the various elections leading up to the general elections that are the ultimate tests so are we expecting something new from YAAGA Africa? Well one new in this election no it's still going to be our election observation which we're going to like I said earlier we're deploying observers we're deploying 659 observers across the three states to observe the election and they will be providing our election their updates and reports at the end of the elections so those are what we're going to be studying from in YAAGA Africa. Okay so what we're kind of some people kind of rely on YAAGA Africa and bodies like yours to get their relevant information during and after the election and all that when you do these things to make sure that you put iNEC on their toes and you inform the people clearly what is going on and let's say iNEC just does what they like do you ever try or think about um legal ways to bring iNEC to to do what they're supposed to do or you just observe and go whatever they do they go they'll get away with it So one thing about observer groups such as YAAGA Africa is that we then just observe and go we also make effort to see that our recommendations are implemented so that's why a lot of the ideas are fitting to the next election advocacy or reforms advocacy are going to do a step from the report and report of partner organizations that also observe the elections we're not just observing issuing a report and leaving where we see that is a where that's the studio on iNEC or any other institution was a was a departure from what the law prescribes of course we'll be exploring legal avenues to ensure that they do the right right okay are there particular things in these three states that you would like to observe you know like what do you think will go down in imu or in bayasa or in kogis state in your experience so in the not particularly particular things we always observe is is voter turnouts the process know the process of elections um the turnouts the looking at how all the parties um where the police candidates iNEC secret agencies um how they all conduct themselves and behave looking at the coalition process because that's very very important and looking at the final the results final results that's why it's a process and results with verification methodology it's not just looking at the results the process is as important as the results so all of this we're also looking at the turn out of things like young people turn out of of women turn out of persons with disability these are critical groups that will always um look to see how we can have you know push for more inclusion um for them in the political process yeah and in imu state we have somebody who is quite close to the people living with disabilities in one of these parties contesting maybe that will give them a sense of belonging as well but while you do your work and i'm using your organization not because it's the only organization but we're talking to you right now your experiences might be the same as other organizations other cso's that uh trying to do this as advocacy for our electoral process to be better and all that uh what do you think the people themselves need to do that they've not been doing uh to contribute also to the transparency of this election it cannot be only yaga africa it cannot be only syrup it cannot be only the cso's that we we think about uh so what are the people missing what should they be doing what should their role be uh going forward as you fight your fight on the one side what should the people be fighting i think an important thing that should be fighting is to not um distance themselves away from the process because it was unsatisfactory the previous time um that's the mistake we often make where we feel like the elections do not go well or as well as we hoped or even worse that our preferred candidates do not win and they will not decide that we are better off not involving ourselves we need to get in we to involve ourselves um the elections will only get better if we all participate the more we step away from it to only get worse so that's very very important so very very important for students to understand that there's a lot of power that they have especially in numbers in terms of ensuring that the writings are done um there's all demanding for the things um for the for laws to be done to be followed for um the ministry reforms to be done all of these are very very important so indeed most citizens participation um and not to not apathy and of course if you're in any of these three states do is to go out and vote irrespective of how you feel around because this is one the power you have as a citizen to choose your leadership is a partner should not be taken for granted so you should get out they go out there and vote if any of these three states and a result votes on if needs more citizen participation our democracy needs that more than ever now okay you've just spoken to the people now talk to the umpire the political umpire aidek and maybe the the security personnel that are going to ensure that there's peace but within the domains that the elections will be held as we wrap up well all right well i did get your question can you come again speak to aidek you have talked talked to the people speak to aidek and every other person or agency that is going to make sure we have a peaceful election on saturday well of course for aidek the most important thing that they should they should know is is this a very critical time for them um it's a question that this is a clue is a diminished trust in in our elections um the tiny voter turnout these are things that should worry them and show maybe you know um want to do ensure that their actions begin to make a turn around in how we view elections in this country that's very very very critical for them as far as security agencies is very important that they remain non-partisan and ensure that the law is law or that it's maintained and also most importantly that they should be no sacred cows around those for those who break the law whether they are candidates you know people high up or um those or their supporters is very very important that there's no no one is paired in terms of when they break the law because if we don't do that we'll only be reinforcing bad behavior like i said earlier where it becomes part of our political culture acceptable to engage in violence whether it's actual violence or even violent rhetoric ahead of elections well thank you so much mark amaza for coming on the show and sharing your thoughts we wish you well uh in kogi by elsa thank you for having me yeah thank you for coming so we've been talking with mr mark amaza senior communications officer iyaga africa on the preparedness of the relevant agencies for the election the officers in election holding in imo by elsa and kogi states but also we were looking at the piece of court that was being signed how is it going to have an impact on this election and the role of the individuals and all the relevant agencies that's how we're going to draw the curtain on the show this morning we are so happy that you were able to stay with us and continue to the end at this point would like to say thank you to you on behalf of the entire team of the breakfast on plus tv africa let's do it again tomorrow my name is nyam ghul aggaji