 Hi, this is your host blue heart. Yeah, and we are here at open source summit in Dublin and today we have with us Philip M. And Jeff Elisa Automotive working group and system working group is great to have you on the show Thank you a lot. Perfect. Yeah. So first of all, let's start with the basics, which is tell us a bit about the project Yeah, so the Elisa project is three years old project now And Elisa stands for enabling Linux in safety applications, which basically means that we have a lot of industries and they all make use of Linux and have certain safety claim or not yet But those systems which are safety relevant and which include Linux elements and The mission which we are taking in the Elisa part is that we see how we can work together to Put in elements processes tools like building blocks for these kind of systems and then Help industry Integrators and others to really find a way which is some mean able to serve to get a safety certification for the Yeah, the Linux systems which you will which safety criticality in mind. So it's really something which is filling a good Bridge and money projects which we have already in the Linux Foundation. It's giving the safety part in there next to security When you talk about the Security of automotive now once again that becomes complicated because at one point we look at the traditional cars I don't like to call them ice cars, no internal combustion I traditional cars and then we have the not only not all EVs are you know smart EVs You know Tesla they're working on different set of glass So when you talk about security, we are looking at two different set sets of security One security is just security of the vehicle itself, you know and all the accident The second is though when you're looking at more and more self-driving security means different thing So what is the scope of the project? And how do you see yourself with the evolution of EV automotive market? The self-driving part is more the challenging one which we are approaching here Actually in the automotive we're not focusing on a self-driving use case. We go for a use case which is more traditional with clusters and so on But it's basically has the elements which are needed and which claims are put to an operating system and here it goes for When you say security more in this safety power functional safety That means there shouldn't be a harm to the person to the people to the car around you the environment And this gives the difference to what I say with traditional security because there are a lot of security things Which just make Prevented data is secure. There is no intrusion attacks deny of service and so on this of course is important for a safety system as well, but It also there is an additional factor like when you isolate Securities think you look into certain modules, but for safety you have to think about the whole because just if one little element is Considered to be safe. It's not free from interference. It could be a Text from also which you don't imagine so you have to really consider a whole as a system What's often also called an item and this is where products exist and this is actually independent of the Business area you bought it up quite well with the connection Everything get connected to get more complex centralized and so I also want to talk to you something about you know We talk we kind of put a lot of words together privacy security safety Can you also make it sure when we talk about the automotive, you know, or in the specific regions or countries? Just to be clear that safety versus security. What is the difference and once again? What is the scope of the project right? Yeah, it's a good point because if you talk about security this gives data privacy Which they're strong for some in the European region where you have to make a lot of things are followed from the regulations data privacy and so on and Second security power would be to have like no intrusion or whatever and have deny of service attack What we have really currently seeing a lot of what this is what the project is not about It's about safety for the human body for the environment that you reach your Goal when you take in a car and especially in this move was more and more driving assistance really recovery come respond That's need to be put into the car So they are demand their practice and control interior monitoring systems all these kind of things to make sure you're safe When you're driving and nothing happened to you This is a scope of the Elisa project automotive workgroup that we see here is this functionality which should prevent Harm or loss to the physical body. Can you also talk a bit about when we look at, you know, either we look at the traditional cars Yeah, or we look at you know Let's say self-driving kind of cars How much do you see the safety aspect actually different or it's actually same because in some ways just the because Someone else is making decision that the computer, you know at more advanced computer versus less advanced computer So talk about that. Yeah, there is a strong difference actually because what we see is that there is tendency to have a software defined vehicle So more in the past there were many many Units so a lot of little body device embedded control units which are spread around in the car and they are getting more Centralized so it's getting more computation power which is needed also for all these camera Sensors which getting fusion sensor fusion and bring all the things together and Here comes the point also for Linux because there are a lot of libraries available a lot of tools Which have been not used in the past it was simply our tools or bare metal programming and suddenly they are put into large complex computation desktop PC style Computation performance and this is new for the whole industry and also the standards around this were not really made for these Kind of elements, so it's really growing all together and suddenly a lot of very experts also safety see new challenges new complexity and On the other hand, we have certain complexity managed in Linux But we have never been confronted with all these demands on on safety in here It's really where Elisa comes into the picture comes into the game and bring things together so that's really the work which we have and Because you gave this from the traditional car to the new one Or you could imagine if you drive a car you've seen maybe this warning lights like check engine sing or Which gear you use and this has been light bulbs. They turn into LEDs, but nowadays if you see a fancy car it's fully integrated into display the display gets rendered by graphics processing is the GPU and This needs to be made safe It has to be there because you need to know if something is wrong with your engine and that you get it in time And this is something which we took as use case for example in the Elisa Workgroup for Automotive, so let's look into this element because it's really nice visualization of things Can you also talk about the whole structure of the product because there are so many different groups within their project itself So that we better understand, you know, what you folks are doing there. Yeah, so I Said already we have certain processes elements tools and you can see similar as we touched security and security There are known capabilities Like see groups namespace whatever we do and we have one group which just focuses on which features could get in but These little features will not make your system safe and there's a lot of compliance to processes are How the development process looks like reviews traceability So we have another group which also focuses on having an open source engineering process So that the process which is done in open source get root also how you can measure it to safety demands which safety integrity standards like ISO and IC standard ask for have fulfilled this and This is so another element then we need to improve the quality of the kernel so we do fuzzy testing and this is done with tool inverse tool investigation group and With these three elements, they are They're fed with the use cases. So we have the automotive for use case, which I'm representing and then there's also medical device this group which working with open APS project also an open source project together and We give the requirements also to different groups and get support by the architecture work group I haven't mentioned this but they really look into kernel subsystems and see how this Influence of the kernel comes much stronger into the use cases and yeah, then there is a quite new group on the Systems systems work group here. We are not so deep into the safety element of it But we see that different work groups need to get the work together right you need to see some or end Experience what we do and this goes that into the system, which is looking for a fully automated reproducible reference system where you can come to real-world architecture because a system will not be only on Linux it will include other or as it may be container technology involved hypervisor virtualization technology real-time Well as next to it and this is across industries. You see repeating architectures, and this is touch with the systems work group and This is basically the frame how we tie things together so that you have something for long-term visibility How should use cases evolve? Have a process in landscape get certain tools which enhance functionality and then have Spotlights on certain elements. We know it's not complete. It need to get more right. There's some Corner where this uses space glpc and other parts that we need to draw on this But we started on the colonel called colonel as a fundamental element, which does a scheduling memory management Well, we look a lot from the work groups Excellent. I also want to talk a bit about if you look at the automotive industries a diverse industries not just you know Within you know, Germany you have like so many awesome, you know companies there global When it comes to adoption of these technologies, how much is standardization you're seeing there or you still see there is some Fragmentation or in general if you do look at that What are the challenges that you do see out there to kind of make sure that everybody's on the same, you know playing playing field? Yeah, I I see that There's still a diverse market. We have already some projects which bring Different manufacturers for example together with the automotive great linux, which is part of our use case we took the automotive great linux platform into the ELISA and There are also currently great initiatives. So from some of our members. They're driving activities. So Taurus more public visibility of safety of the users of linux and you see also outside of the LF large initiatives like software defined vehicles so we were we also contribute in as members from ELISA and Try to also interact with them because they really bring a large market and actually from edge to the cloud So there are also AWS Microsoft other large partners and this is really a bunch which go into this business Which are not the traditional automotive, right? They are really from another industry sector and you see the cooperation the consolidation on it and You actually also see a lot of similar even if it's a diverse project landscape You see repeating Companies and it's a large set. So maybe there's also more Consolidation over time and we try at least to establish the communication from the systems worker between these different projects So there's something we're really try to type things together If you just look at the kind of industry of the project Tell us a bit about some of the milestones that you are proud of you when you look back at them or from the point Hey, this is what we have achieved so far. I think one one good thing was that we figured out Elements that we have different safety standards and we were taking a long time to figure out what could be the best safety Standard on all but in the end at some point we reached the situation that we see there's a lot of similarities They need same things reviewing processes traceability and we think that this is one very important branch but this issue on safety standards need to get into Linux and we had a good set in alignment of use cases to Really reach out to the people the communities in there and we put this into white paper documentation so the technical strategy is available as a white paper and From the automotive it was really nice and we could use a reference and we had it first sample Implementation was not safe But it was a use case which we could just show and derive elements to it then a good My son was also the part on the sdpa analysis system theoretic process analysis It's something which is a fairly new technology But it's getting widely used in this context because you can illustrate things a lot and this driving things forward And yeah, really my stones were also foundation when we reached the critical mass for new working groups like for the system It's a old set out of sorts of features next features group. This were always quite my son's because it settles down different elements which we need the Pillars of the project to come to a success, but it's still also made worse to mention. It's a longer way which we still have The way forward What are things in the pipeline? Of course, there are certain things that you can share but in the open source project everything is out there But you know if you have a better pulse of the community in a project. So talk a bit about that here So I mean the focus on the automotive and systems work group for sure I cannot speak for all our groups, but we see that We for work in the automotive work group, which was quite generic So basically our concept are not limited to linux. You can put it to any US and Create your system architecture on it But now we're in a stage where we have the architecture work group and we bring these two worlds together So it's something where we really aligned they come from a kernel perspective much stronger. We Put away the US for some time to just make a key concept So this is something where things get together now that's something coming up in the next month We reach out to other communities again So interaction with the autosar consortium is something where we want to enhance because they in safety activities as well we go into Then SSS DB Sophie because they share this architecture We align with AGL most likely need to illustrate them also stronger how safety from Elisa can help the AGL and they're Growing use case and really really concrete from the systems work group I think this is a nice thing where the good demo which was done from the center project with Stefano Stavolini and he showed a demo during OSS&A and This was a good showcase and want to get this showcase forward So we currently making this fully automated that you can have the tools will bring this into Yachto and we have another tool called more than it's a meetable tooling so that you Experience this with a good documentation for the ideas that you can really cut out elements from it so you take one element out and another element in and Then our goal is to have this line with the as well because we know that sufferable of material It's really gaining momentum with a lot of activities out there and So here we see that we need to generate full system as well And this is something which people typically do they have the elements But they generate some part here and there and we try to bring this together that you can have the full Systems stack which you need in beside the cloud power We currently have the cloud included in the middle there It's a very front product of this together and here. I'm really proud that we actually have a spin-off for and to the SPDX so there's a new How it called Functional safety special interest group in the SPDX and this was created after initial discussions which we had in the systems work We went figure. Well, this is very important has needs a larger forum So we spin this off and show this nice collaboration with other communities so that we only Collaborate with the Xen community with sapphire involved We have Yachto project in and also the SPDX project And so we really form an umbrella for different activities and all have Touchpoints to safety and I guess there's no place to meet and the systems work Other than the the hats that you veer the project you are also at Bosch. So first of all tell us what do you do at Bosch? Yeah, right? We are in Projects. I joined Bosch just in April this year. I've been with the Dodger company a smaller one for many many years Automotive and we Targeted project because we saw the architecture as it is quite they're very similar all over industries So we try to bring our invests which we already have in Linux to widen the different use cases and go into industrial building power tools and all these different business units which exist and Bosch and See how the Linux works into it and this was also one reason why I said we move into Elisa So we joined Elisa for the safety power for the system composition in systems work group and Bosch also joined the civil infrastructure platform project because The Linux long-lasting long-term support long-term support maintainability is a very crucial element in here and Sir pillar which we took were as we just talked about it the S-bomb bar So we also became an SPD X member and by this we started our three activities Just now was a launch of the LF EU and we said this is a good start So that we can bring efforts can bring engineers exactly in this safety part Systems build up long-term support maintainability that the systems are having long lifetimes getting connected and then All being compliant also and finding ways how to identify vulnerabilities easy and do this jointly And as we said, we don't want to have this only inside Bosch. We said we go the step outside Let's look for partners because it's we all share the same burden We also have the same challenges and that's why it's important to speak outside Speak to the people and get forum on this and this is basically also the role and the mission which I'm taking in this project to reach out to more people and Bringing our interests forward and do work together Philip. Thank you so much for taking time out today and talk about the the project Also, you know, we talked about how the automotive industry is evolving and how the project is helping and also talk about Bosch's involvement in the project and this is beauty about Linux Foundation that there are so many projects Where it also enables a lot of you know folks to get involved with the product that they see value in at the same time It's like cross-pollination where you also share the ideas from burn predictors. It makes everybody better So that's so awesome there, but I really appreciate your time and you're inside today, and I would love to talk to you again So thank you. Yeah, thanks a lot. It's a pleasure to talk to you. So very nice to meet you. Thank you