 Two things before we actually kick into the panel, one is they were like four minutes more left for the match, so someone should say finally what is the outcome, I can see a lot of you actually watching the match on the screen and that's somewhere relates back to the topic of the discussion, which is the mobile screen and second is that quite good that we are following up following through after the technology panel as a marketing panel because we means just just to set a context when you look at it means there are 650 billion odd mobile smartphones in the country and if you just leave the less than 10 10-year-old kids almost every Indian has a mobile phone not more than a meter away for almost 24 hours so that's the kind of scale we are talking about of our device which is there in your life and for so much time including now when we were listening to the panel we are also watching the FIFA match and I guess Argentina didn't get through with this match so if that is the kind of impact obviously marketers will also follow, marketers will also follow where the consumers are so they are doing it but what is happening is the user journey or the consumer journey on this platform has become very very complex and which is making their life quite miserable and actually marketers are asking more and more that how to actually demystify it how to actually see the impact of it does it work does not work and that brings to our topic that what matters matter actually so that's probably the context and if I can just pick up from the last conversation only metaverse then there is top funnel conversion commerce then there is actually losing platforms social chatting video so much is happening there's too much pressure on that one small screen if you realize and it's becoming quite difficult so it almost sounds like chaos is it actually chaos is there is method to this madness you have to take this actually sure yeah I think there are very few people here so I guess we're gonna just chat amongst ourselves primarily but we just want people to come close but yeah you guys can come in we can have like a great conversation but yeah obviously there's a lot of chaos as you say but I think very exciting times and as market viewers I think we should be you know we should prioritize marketing first not try to become data scientists because the moment we get into too much of data we lose focus of the big picture right which is trying to figure out what our objectives are and the objectives haven't changed over the you know over the years even when there was television there's television advertising print advertising there's objectives of each campaign so why there is a lot of madness out there but I think we got to go one level higher and see it from a very broad perspective of birds are I view in terms of what can one achieve and clearly these are very exciting times right now because digital can do so much or then whatever the bell sound very well yeah so so there is a very exciting times ahead as I mentioned to you because as market viewers now you can achieve so much from digital and it's no wonder that digital ad access 56% of the world it's either over already overtaken or about to overtake television in the country right and I think the advantage of digital is you can do everything possible you can do mass bombarding right so you want to create awareness you create awareness and then obviously look at matrix that had to create awareness you can do limited bombarding so you create a cohort take the cup Deepak's data of home loan customers and you know other often customers see the crystal data and then target them you can do surgical strikes and then you can do micro surgical strikes right so you can do everything possible and the idea is you have to figure out what is the objective of your you know what do you want to do what do you want to achieve out of that so there's an objective of awareness then you look at certain matrix and I've heard of people saying that you know on YouTube my CPC it was 19 per se it did very well and my first question was on what cohort right because that's what matters digital offers you a cohort right filtration because you mentioned that point I have to say that there's a very standard thing comes up my CPC is X 19 and it is above the industry benchmark I really don't know what the hell does that mean because what is an industry benchmark if you don't identify your target group if your target group for example is really really mass you just you know doing geotargeting you're doing just male 25 to 35 and you know 19 per se could be cheaper it could work I think it's still expensive but if your cohort is very very niche you're talking of people who are following the economists or you're following you know who have iOS on their phone etc etc then CPCP of 19 per se would be like amazing right so matrix have to be just seen as a trend they can't be gospel through gospel through should be that you look at data but finally look at what you want to achieve and then take it forward so there's madness all right but as marketers it still boils down to that one simple as we all say the common sense have common sense focus on what you want to achieve digital is right there helping you achieve whatever you want it's like a magical you know want that you have on our hand I mean the bell keeps ringing I'm curious that bellows are for you maybe for me to stop perhaps okay but we have a magical one on our hand I think we should use it in the best of our advantage not get bogged down with too much data use it to your advantage and make you know magic up so that's all I have to say yeah that's there means and honestly chaos is good there's no problem if it is chaos because after chaos obviously there comes clarity so there's no problem so that what's your point of view on this one no I agree with everything I mean you're saying so one chaos is good chaos is what allows you to differentiate if you're if you're doing something different then you have an advantage in a chaotic environment and that happens at the mic at the very micro level the you know personalization level where you're bringing a differentiated brand experience onto mobile and therefore causing some stickiness with the customer but it is happening at a at a very aggregate level I mean to play devils advocate this whole india e-commerce mobile smartphone penetration is growing has been on for more than a decade right all the projections of deloitte bcg bane mckinsey etc how fast it will grow and where india will get to we've fallen I mean let's admit we've fallen behind those growth trends or expectations so the projections or the optimism that is there has not panned out yet now that leaves a lot of room for opportunity that leaves a lot of room for opportunity ultimately for large organizations to consolidate the war is not ended over here it is actually this is the battleground for the the world and we've seen that happening from the stage at which innovation has happened let's say with a player like jabong who then get acquired by a mintra then a mintra gets acquired by a flipkart and then a flipkart gets acquired by walmart right ultimately the game is going to be in those large two or three players if you're innovative enough you get a sufficient degree of valuation which allows you to be acquired and the initial guys to exit or you're differentiated enough with sufficient cash flows which very few organizations across the world are to win that battleground in the end I mean that that's that's where the chaos will ultimately settle down we need to be aware of of what our roles are in in that larger chaotic environment fact you just defined the method in that chaos already by saying how consolidation will be one of the one of the clearly emerging method in the absolute madness that we're seeing and consolidation of matrix also maybe because there's too much data there's too much of data flowing actually we often say that digitally we don't understand what works but it's very contrary because the amount of information that comes around as signals that come up comes back to agency or to the marketer is not funny it's a it's a data overload the information overload I often use a phrase which is called the data dump that is coming in is actually making us data dump so and because he really don't know to do anything so with that data so what comes in is that is there a way to simplify it as simple can there be like you can say three things to look at it or if I'm oversimplifying it then make it a bit more complicated because I know there's too much of data but something that's simplifying that with all this information coming in if you have to step back what you how can we help marketers to do that and maybe first you're the master or champion of all the data that is there so I like the context setting out where you guys have created the chaos and told me that listen just now clear the chaos now clear the chaos no I think I think we are living in times where if I were to just you know probably just dump this down and probably say that I think we all when we look at from whatever roles we play today we are curious enough and we are asking ourselves a lot of questions you know right from simple thing like okay did my you know ad which I played on video did it generate enough recall you know did my ad go to you know whatever campaign I ran or whatever you know creative I ran you know was there the right kind of awareness for my brand did it create any lift for consideration so these are points which are always an interest point for all of us in the practice in which you know we pursue today yeah and all these now so that that's one so curiosity for us is increasing okay on the other side technology companies when you call technology companies when you call platforms what we are trying to do is that try to answer that simple question you know try to bring in technology data right measurement and try to just answer those questions and hopefully you know answer it with a higher degree of accuracy okay so that is where the importance of data comes in okay so I think you know if you probably set out an objective and I'll probably use some examples out here okay like when a brand would say that look you know I looking at driving sales okay I want to do performance marketing I want to generate people who are coming onto my site and purchasing my things obviously there are couple of ways in which you could possibly navigate that journey you could probably say look you know what I have outsourced this to my partner or I'm doing it internally and I'm going to run performance marketing campaigns on Facebook and search and in that process when you decide the channel then you look at the key data points or the key matrices which matter to you you know you closely look at very simple funnels you will say okay let me look at my click to lead ratio let me look at lead to quality code okay and if I'm in the business of selling used cars then I'm further looking at quality code to inspection ratio as a business okay so that's really one way of defining the journey and at that point of time you are consciously muting all the vanity matrix you want to avoid what is the impression cost out there or what is the cpm out there what is the click through ratio out there those are not priority data points for you you know when you're going down that part so I think one part is that we constantly have to ask ourselves that information and data will be available with us how can we just simplify it prioritize what matters to us and try to address that part another example I'd like to talk about is and we've done this at we serve where we basically bring alternate data to marketers and we basically had a use case where a fintech company which is basically selling cards you know and we came up with a strategy with them that look we'll pick up alternate data from our platform and we'll first expose those 10 million customers from our platform on youtube and we'll run an f cap or one or two on that so that campaign was executed on youtube first then that same from that same funnel there were people who visited the website and what we also did was we aided the youtube campaign by targeting the same 10 million users by putting by deploying our 10 million customers on facebook you know and then nudge them for a sale so the consumer was nudged at that point of time again and we saw almost like a 5x lift on the conversion funnel so what people who finally you know had filled up leads so the lead to the application ratio jumped by almost 5x for us and there in so when we put all of this together whilst we were working with the brand it started getting established with the brand that like it's important to do a full funnel campaign where you're integrating say a video campaign along with that you're running a performance campaign in a very cohesive manner so in that scenario again you know it was a learning out there where the brand was only doing performance marketing performance marketing but not really executing something cohesively on two platforms yeah so so i think there again now someone would say that what is the data which matters to me right okay so you really will have to look at saying that look fine i get the right customers i target the right customers from a platform and then i'm following through following through the funnel to see what is the the business impact i get you know whether it is people where i can directly see the conversion whether i look at assisted conversions uh from my campaign so i think we are all blessed in a environment where we have to cut the noise and focus on key data sets i want to add to that because very interestingly deepak mentioned about performance marketing and again performance marketing is typical right we do a lot of e-commerce advertising e-commerce is 100 percent performance because you're in market you're doing a search campaign obviously throwing your impressions or somebody's typing the word air conditioner you're obviously bidding for that word keyword which is air conditioner there'll be impressions served there'll be a cpc bid finding the cpc will convert to a ctr that ctr will convert to a product page view the product page view has to convert it's a long cycle that you measure obviously in a performance marketing campaign you'll imagine that you know what is your investment what conversions had happened what is your roas as they call it right written on your advertising spend we'd see it like that as a market here and say okay this campaign worked or not but very interestingly we should also see one more thing right because when you're going on amazon or on flipkart you're searching for air conditioner you may have seen my sponsored listing you may not have clicked on it right you've gone ahead and done that your entire performance marketing you know funnel doesn't measure that impression that i served on to you you saw a blue star air conditioner for example my sponsored listing you didn't click on it my entire funnel didn't capture it at all but so many million impressions got served at no cost for me so many people saw it only when you clicked is when i paid but when you didn't click it it didn't get paid right so that's one more thing you ought to consider beyond the funnel because you know these are impressions serve you have created equity everything will not get converted there and then you know they take a 14 day attribution somebody takes a 30 day attribution things like that but always also treat performance marketing and i've heard this quite often saying performance marketing does not go with brand building and brand awareness actually they do because you're creating impressions in your consumers are actually searching for a particular product or a service and again you know again with the performance marketing you have branded keywords you have generic keywords and you have competitive keywords and again you know it's very easy because somebody's searching for a blue star air conditioner and i'm doing a sponsored listing there obviously my performance matrix would be great and then the agency would say wow you've done a super job we've done a super job there you know a c or r os and c or a cos is gone down but finally the proof of the bidding putting would be in the competitive mapping right when somebody's just typing a generic keyword or a competitive keyword like an lg ac or a voltas ac for me and then me getting that you know customer to click and that customer eventually buying that is the proof of the pudding so we've got to look at it all holistically it's not like white or black it's all gray out there and like i said before let's not put a data lens to it let's not become data scientists let's look at marketing you know in the true you know for this group i must tell you we were there in another room waiting and watching the football match there while we were waiting to come on the stage and we were cracking a joke about how the first kick or the first click was amazing after that the assist actually failed at the final conversion completely leakage bottom funnel there was a one goal which was happening and they made a mess out of it so so we were joking about that so yeah it's almost visualize it like a football if that assist is not there right if the right person is not there at the right place it will never gonna convert and that's basically the summary of the long discussion we had watch football so yeah which is okay moving from there actually this is a sudat absolutely down your alley i wanted to ask you because you're working in one of the most complex marketing ecosystem when it comes to digital marketing itself there you have like demand demand creation in a different platform demand conversion on a on pc's and laptops versus create creation will happen mostly on mobile the browsing and all then obviously the super complex business structure also that we were talking about it so when it comes to heart matrix business brand matrix and all are we seeing mobile screen actually standing up because we're expecting a small screen to make a very huge impact are you seeing that it you are it depends on how you want to look at the data and what i mean what metric is ultimately that you're focusing on right if you look at look at it with a longer five ten year horizon and you see what is the digital spend i'm doing do i want to spend on say performance marketing for something as simple as deli vanguard flights or do i let the aggregator who is also not going to get a return on that investment but will drive his valuation by user acquisition right so it's what the telecom companies have gone through over a period of time right your arpo or your acquisition a number of users is what is driving the value it's not profitable if somebody else is willing to invest money to grow the market for me and bring in more consumers they're more than welcome to do that right unless it's at the cost of a long-term stickiness that aggregator or platform and by aggregator include the googles and uh you know the intermediaries of the world right from the thought that occurs in the consumers mind to the actual booking if you look at the initial months just after the first wave of the pandemic purely because of cash flows our entire industry stopped spending right there were no flights being booked so we stopped spending which meant we stopped spending on performance marketing and digital advertising consolidated across all of us nothing changed in share of search or market share right uh when one player starts spending everybody has to spend to stay alive but if you step back from that you realize actually there is no value being added by google outside of the core value of organic search beyond that yes they will say okay fine now i have such results now you pay me to display your ad hire and then i'll get somebody else to pay to display their bid hire ultimately what really matters yeah is just created a video you just created you've created something in the middle sucking money away from the ecosystem from the consumer as well as from the brand right which in the long term you don't need what you do need therefore is is a stickiness uh with the experience that you're able to provide because as a brand you stand for some experience you stand for some product or some service quality that you want to be able to translate which is not there in the mobile screen of today it's an undifferentiated booking journey if you actually want to stand for something create a differentiated booking and search experience which is a transference of what you want to deliver as a brand uh and that's your pure metric what is the nps score for example of my loyalty member on my mobile app versus the score of the sake member is booking me through an aggregator this is some fact this is one of the most fabulous and real life example you can actually get to because uh in such candidness nobody will talk about you what it does in short term and long term so thanks for sharing this that that's a very powerful one moving on i can see the time ticket has been suddenly reduced i guess yeah but nonetheless uh i will try to speed it up and close on this one one of the important point is when we talk about this entire mobile marketing ecosystem so much of muscle memory that we have built over a period of time uh we know it's getting a bit disrupted now with lot of policy changes whether it's by platforms like android apple or by government policies coming and it's going to change a lot of things around and uh marketers are likely to lose their edge how they actually market uh in future for all the sexy things on technology it can actually impact a lot so maybe you can actually touch upon it a bit in terms of how they actually maintain the edge what is something they need to do now that they are compliant at the same time they don't lose the edge see i think um you know every time when we speak about any change you know in you know and when we go through some big shifts in the market it presents a new opportunity you know so uh this massive there obviously you know when you're talking about it you're talking about uh a future world which is uh a privacy first ecosystem and a privacy first ecosystem which enables you to do uh responsible digital marketing to your consumers you know that's really by and large what we are looking at and when you talk about any global platform or any particular platform uh whether it is a global platform or a local platform i think at at at the first level uh the platform and the consumer the relationship which exists between a consumer and a platform needs to be respected and that that respect will start off with a fairly explicit consent of how the consumer's data is leveraged by the platform okay like for example you know if i were to just uh and and there is a bit of consumer awareness which is needed if we were to like probably ask anyone on this room and if i can probably ask people on the same panel itself that how many people would have cared to read the privacy policy on amazon when you go and shop has anyone read the privacy policy of amazon when you go and shop on amazon none of us or maybe one of us right so now you're basically saying that so what does the privacy policy of amazon really say you know when you go and shop on that platform yeah so it really calls out that look guys uh uh as you spend time on the platform uh we are organizing you know customers in an anonymized manner and we are creating a cluster called interest based ads okay now they go ahead and define that that what is interest based ads uh and they also mentioned that on the platform that look we will do collaboration and partnerships with marketing technology companies where we will share with your anonymized profiles of customers we would not share your PII information we would not share your number name anything it is just interest based cohorts which are anonymized and that is those interest based cohorts will be leveraged by them and the marketing technology partner to serve you with ads not just on amazon but off amazon as now this is what is mentioned there okay now similarly practically any other platform will have their own privacy policy or terms of service and they would call this out okay so i was coming to the point that one yes the platform is engaging with the consumer and and calling it out on the other hand the consumer instead of complaining should make the effort to go ahead and consume that policy uh as an ecosystem as an industry as a responsible industry we should all it's like you know when amfi runs a campaign and says invest in mutual fund but it is subject to certain risk fair enough and everyone is aware about it so i think at some level the industry should come together and probably do a campaign with consumers and in that case whether it's government or any other body which tells people and makes people aware that any platform whether it is a telecom operator whether it is a retailer whether it is a utility platform read the privacy policy or be aware about it you know i think in life as people do that that's when the trust and the consent comes in and uh i know that when he's looking at me right now he's saying that wrap up the question time um but we will just attribute all of this to the e4m team because yeah because because they dragged us he's also watching us very carefully there's a timer which is blinking right here and suddenly the clock was like ticking very fast you know 30 minutes and then switch to five minutes we start we were good 40 minutes we have a clock here which keeps telling us whether we over time so we started fine but the 30 minutes you gave 10 minutes and i will also say that when we walked in there were only seven or eight people in the room so you know when we were searching for words we said listen how do we engage with only seven eight people in the room so as the crowd started building up we said we are in a reset mode we got into the vibe of speaking on that lovely note i think let's wrap up because she took another step out into the stage making sure we just wrap up we've taken over they can't do anything thank you so much everyone for listening to us and uh on this note i will say yeah one thing on the last question that i asked just to wrap up the marketing people how they get the edge maybe i can close on that notice there's a lot of uh the marketers need to invest a lot in their ecosystem to build infrastructure for the uh infrastructure to manage the consumer data and once that infrastructure gets built up and connects back with the platform there will be much more effective some industries are already ahead and uh siddharth i'm i'm sure your experience on this your experience on this obviously will be very very rich but there are huge cpg world and many other categories where they have not even taken the steps and if they don't they will actually will not be as effective marketers in future so they need to start now so they need to invest in technology and capabilities yeah basically partner with people like us on technology and don't do meta words but just manage your consumer data on that one thank you thank you