 I welcome everyone to the 31st meeting of the Justice Committee in 2015. I can ask everyone to switch off mobile phones and other electronic devices as you interfere with broadcasting, even when they are switched to silent. Apologies that have been received from Alison McKinnis. Item 1, decisions on taking business in private. I'm asking the committee to consider the following items in private. Item 10, revised draft stage 1 report between the justice bill. Item 11, consideration of our approach to budget scrutiny. An item 12, proposed scrutiny of the draft. Victims Rights Scotland Regulations 2015, rwy'n gweithio. Item 2, Abusive Behaviour and Sexual Harm Witness Expenses. Members were called last week's meeting. We agreed to invite a number of witnesses to give evidence on the abuse of behaviour and sexual harm rule, rather than seeking group approval. Are members happy to delegate responsibility to me as convener for arranging the witness expenses? Item 3, consideration of one affirmative instrument. The Draft Courts Reform Scotland Act 2014, consequential and supplemental provisions order 2015. I welcome meeting Paul Wheelhouse Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs. Good morning. Hazel Del Gard, civil law and legal system division. And is it Gregor Gregg? Greg Walker, director to legal services. Can remind everyone present that officials can't take part in this item, but not in the formal debate that follows. This is an evidence session. I invite the minister to make an opening statement, please. Thank you, convener. The order under consideration today makes consequential amendments to primary and secondary legislation in support of the commencement of the civil jurisdiction and competence of the chef appeal court. I understand that the DPLRC considered this consequential order on 27 October and that no points were raised. By means of explanation, the commencement order, which was laid on 6 November, makes provision for civil appeals, formally appealed from the chef to the chef principal, to be heard by the chef appeal court civil instead. The court is due to be commenced on 1 January 2016. Thank you very much. Do you have any questions from members? I have none. I go straight on to item 4, which is the formal debate on the motion to improve the instrument. I invite the minister to move motion S4M 14683, which the Justice Committee recommends. The draft court just makes sure that you are formally moving the correct order. I could switch it and catch it out. The draft courts reform Scotland Act 2014 consequential and supplementary provisions order 2015 be approved. I take it no members wish to speak in any debate in this motion, neither does the minister wish to respond, because nobody said anything. I put the question to the committee. The question is that motion S4M 14683 be agreed to, are we all agreed? As you are aware, we have required to report on all the forms of instruments. Are you content to delegate authority for me to sign off this report? Thank you very much. Item 5, a further form of instrument, the draft Scottish Tribunals and Ministers. Oh, I beg your pardon, switching officials. Yes. I will just blast on too fast. I carried away. Thank you very much. Sorry about that. Item 5, a further form of instrument, the draft Scottish Tribunals administrative support for listed tribunals order 2015. The minister, of course, is still here. I welcome different Government officials, Sandra Wallace, civil law and legal system division, Hannah Fraudson, civil law and legal system division and John St. Clair, legal services directorate. I invite the minister to make an opening statement, thank you, convener. I have two draft instruments before you today and would ask that the committee recommend that Parliament approve them. Both these instruments are technical on nature, do not alter how either of the tribunals in question operate. By way of background, I have provided you with a paper, I apologise that it was reasonably short notice, but the paper which gives a brief overview of the Tribunals Scotland Act 2014, and I noted the various instruments that will be coming before you in the near future, including the two before you today. As the paper highlights, the tribunals act creates a simplified and coherent structure for tribunals in Scotland. The act creates two tribunals, the first-tier tribunal for Scotland, which will make decisions at first instance and the upper tribunal for Scotland, which primarily will decide appeals from the first tier. The two tribunals are known collectively as the Scottish tribunals. The functions of existing devolved tribunals will transfer into the Scottish tribunals in a phase process, starting with the private rented housing panel and homeowner housing panel and the respective committees in September next year. The full list of tribunals, the functions of which may transfer in, are listed in schedule 1 of the tribunals act. I will now outline why each of these instruments is necessary. Firstly, the Scottish tribunals listed tribunals regulation 2015. For reasons I will come to in a moment, it is necessary to add the listed tribunals in schedule 1 of the act, references to the private rented housing panel and the homeowner housing panel. For ease, I will refer to them from now on as PRHP and HOHP. Currently, schedule 1 of the act only lists the private rented housing committee and the homeowner housing committee, which I will call the PRHC and HOHC. The PRHP and the PRHC were created by the Housing Scotland Act 2006. The PRHC, which is a committee drawn from the members of the PRHP, deals with tenant complaints regarding repairing problems. The property factor Scotland Act 2011 renames the PRHP and the PRHC as the HOHP and the HOHC when dealing with complaints from homeowners regarding a property factor. Currently, both of the relevant housing acts confer the functions of the tribunals directly upon the committees rather than the panels. This explains why the committees are listed in the act rather than the panels. However, section 35 of the private rented housing Scotland Act 2011 amends the housing Scotland Act 2006 to allow a private sector landlord to apply to the PRHP as opposed to the PRHC for help in exercising rights of entry into a property. It's not going to do without a head ache, but I feel it coming on. I'll show you a pain can mirror. This section of the 2011 act is about to be commenced. The private rented housing panel, given its long name, Landlord's Applications Scotland Regulations 2015, is currently being considered by the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee and subject to parliamentary approval will come into force on 1 December of this year. As a result of the commencement of section 35, functions will be conferred directly on the PRHP rather than the committee. It is therefore necessary to amend schedule 1 of the tribunals act to include the PRHP to enable the functions of the panel to transfer in to the Scottish tribunals along with those of the committee, which, as I mentioned, is already listed in the tribunals act. As the PRHP is the PRHP, albeit in another guise, a similar amendment is also necessary to include the HOHP. In terms of the second instrument before you, namely the Scottish tribunals administrative support for listed tribunals order 2015, for the reasons outlined above, it is also necessary to amend the Courts Reform Act 2014, which lists in schedule 4 the tribunals that the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service may provide administrative support to. That making this instrument will allow SCTS, or Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service, to continue to provide administrative support for the two panels, as well as the two committees. We undertook a 12-week consultation on these instruments. This was combined with a consultation on the proposed structure of the first tier tribunal. As you will see from the paper, I hope that I have provided. I plan to bring forward an instrument on that matter for consideration at a later date. There were nine responses from individuals and organisations, including the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Tribunals and Administrative Justice Advisory Committee. All the responses focused on the structure of the first tier tribunal only. There were no responses in relation to either the policy or the drafting of these instruments. In conclusion, these technical instruments are required to allow SCTS to continue to provide administration for the PRHP and the HOHP when section 35 is commenced on 1 December this year. They will also ensure that the functions of the panels can transfer into the Scottish Tribunals as planned in September 2016. Thank you, convener, for your patience and I hope that your headache is relieved. Thank you very much. I notice that you spoke to the other instrument as well, the draft Scottish Tribunal List of Tribunals regulations. We did, convener. I was trying to answer that. In terms of process, we will let you away with that today because you were wrapped up. I do hope that somebody has got a question. Margaret, excellent. Go for it. Thank you, convener, and good morning, minister. I really just wanted to ask you what financial considerations have been given to the creation of this new private rented sector jurisdiction as part of this? We are not anticipating huge financial implications. As I understand, I confirm with my colleagues that I believe that there are only four cases that have come before the PRHC at present in the past year, so there is very low volume of appeals being taken through the tribunals in this way, but I will double check. It is not a new panel, it is an existing jurisdiction, so it is the same finance that is in place, the finance is already there. We are not anticipating any significant change, it is just a rebadging, but the level of activity is fairly low at present. I will give an award for having a question after all those PRPs and PRCOPs and whatever else was happening there. It is an extra delight for you for Chalkie, an extra pastry, yes. We have had our question, so I am going straight on to the motion item 6. I invite the minister to move motion S4M-14684 that the Justice Committee recommends that the draft Scottish Tribunals administrative support for listed tribunals order 2015 be approved. I take it nobody wants to speak in this debate, no, and the minister has nothing to respond to the question, so S4M-14684 be agreed to, are we all agreed? Are members content again to delegate a thought for me to sign off the report on this instrument? Item 7, the final affirmative instrument, the draft Scottish Tribunals listed tribunals regulations 2015, it is the same officials, so we do not need to change, you do not need to make an opening statement, you have already made it minister, does MD have any questions? There are no questions, so I am moving straight on to item 8. We now move to the formal debate on the motion to approve the instrument, considered under the previous item, and I invite the minister to move motion S4M-14685 that the Justice Committee recommends that the draft Scottish Tribunals listed tribunals regulations 2015 be approved. I take it nobody wants to speak in this, the minister you do not need to respond, the question is not motion S4M-14685 be agreed to, are we all agreed? Again, are members content to delegate a thought for me to sign off this report? Thank you very much. I thank you very much minister for attending today, and I will just spend a couple of minutes to allow the next witness to come in. Now, item 9, the HM Chief Inspector of Prisons annual report, 2014-15. I welcome David Strang, HM Chief Inspector of Prisons for Scotland, and I'm sorry we haven't had you here before. It's just that with so much legislation we're delighted at last to be able to speak to have you speak around your report to be questioned. So it's been remiss of us, and I believe you want to make a short opening statement. I think I was last before you when we were considering the independent prison monitoring order in December. Thank you very much indeed, so you've invited me to speak to the launch of my annual report, which I published last month, and I thought it might be helpful just in a couple of minutes if I said a word or two by way of introduction. I opened my report with a question, which is, how good do we want our prisons to be, which I think gets to the heart of the perhaps tension or dilemma between punishment and care for our prisons? I want to give an answer, which is perhaps not explicit in the report, but my answer to how good do we want our prisons to be is that they should be as good as possible, but I qualify that by saying that we should be using it as sparingly as possible. So I think there are two challenges for us. One is about reducing the number of people who go into prison, and then secondly, better supporting people as they come out of prison and return to the community. The answer, I think, to those challenges lie partly within the criminal justice system and the work in prisons, but also partly with other services, housing, health, addiction support, employment and training. To prevent people going into prison, we need to prevent crime, we need to have an effective criminal justice system that reduces re-offending, and we should look more carefully at alternative to imprisonments, especially for short sentences. I think that within prisons, prisons need to work constructively with people in prison, so that, when they leave prison, they will be less likely to re-offend. The general services—I know that the ministerial group on offender reintegration looked at the whole area about supporting people as they leave prison, so that they do not simply go straight back to that cycle of re-offending period in court and back in prison. I am very happy to take any questions on my report. Thank you. Before we move on, I would be quite interested to know, because you have been in prison now for two years. What has changed? Has anything changed in your view when you came from your previous occupation as chief constable? How has your view of prison through these two and a half years and the way in which the prison is operating changed, not just changes in your own perspectives on it? Right. Back in 2007-2008, as chief constable, I was a member of the Scottish Prisons Commission that produced the report, Scotland's Choice. That was not so much about how prisons were run, but more about the use of imprisonment. In some sense, my views have not changed in those seven years in that I still think that we should use prison as sparingly as possible. I think that the churning of people into prison for a short time and back out with nothing having changed in their lives other than perhaps they have lost a job and lost accommodation and more likely to re-offend. In terms of having been much more intimately involved in prisons as the chief inspector for the last two and a half years, I think that one thing I notice and this is very beneficial is that the prison estate has improved the quality of accommodation. I mean, I have only four old, century-old prisoners at Barlinnie in Venice, Greenock and Dumfries. When I started in this job, we had Peterhead, which was even older, and Aberdeen, both of those are closed. There's a new prison at Grampian, and just the modern estate in general at Lomor, in particular, a new bill, but even Edinburgh, which is still on the site of the old Socton prison, I think that the oldest building there is about 15 years old. So I think that the prison estate has improved and that has an impact in terms of just the living conditions, the end of slopping out, treating people in custody in a more humane and decent way, which is obviously, you know, my legal duties are to inspect prisons and report on the conditions in prison and the treatment of prisoners. So I think that that helps prisoners to feel that they are being treated humanely. The other thing that is changing and encouraging, and I've mentioned in the report, is that what felt like an inexorable rise in prison population has levelled off, numbers are coming down or stabilised, and certainly I'm most encouraged about the Young Offenders Institution at Pullmont, and there are now less than half the prisons that were back seven or eight years ago. So I think that if there are fewer 16 to 21-year-old young men in Pullmont now, hopefully in 10 years' time there will be fewer 25 to 31-year-olds in our prisons, most people cease offending in their 20s rather than start offending. So I think it's not unreasonable to have that optimism that our prison population will continue to fall. Thank you very much. I've got a list. I'm going to go through the list of names waiting so you know when you're next. Christian, followed by John, followed by Elaine, followed by Gil, followed by Margaret Mitchell, followed by Margaret McDougall. Christian, please, followed by Rod. Christian. Good morning and thank you very much for this report. I'm of course quite impressed about how positive it was maybe compared to previous reports, not saying, convener, that I read all previous reports. And particularly on the capacity issue, I really find very refreshing that for the first time maybe we're not talking about a capacity issue that we're talking really about having the good example of Pullmont who can be replicated across the estate. Do you feel that this is the start of a report and do you expect next year to have exactly the same thing, less and less capacity issues and to arrive to a point when we only talk about quality of prison as opposed about capacity? Thank you for your question. I mean there are still pockets of overcrowding and I make some comments particularly in smaller prisons in Vanessa where there's a local prison and I made comments about Perth. Perth still has some old accommodation and there are some cells that were designed for one but have a bunk bed and that is very cramped condition. So there's some local examples of overcrowding but in general the capacity as you say is under much less pressure and what that enables the prison service to do is to spend more time with prisoners addressing the need so more prisoners tend to get opportunities for education and learning and to work. You know my report is critical of the lack of opportunities for purposeful activity both in terms of total number of spaces and the use of them and certainly I know from speaking to people who were around 10 years ago that when Barlinnie had 300 or 400 more men in it than they have now then all the effort and capacity is taken up with just dealing with making sure that prisoners have a meal that they can get to health appointments and so on and there wasn't capacity for doing more constructive things. The difficulty for the prison services of course they don't control the number of people coming in and so you know while they optimist in me would say well I hope that that continues obviously the the factors which influence how many people come into prison are about sentencing and about crime rates and police detections and so on but I sit here optimistic that those trends that we've seen in the last couple of years should continue. Can we have a question about the thematic inspections that you... We won't go into that as anyone else wants to deal with capacity or anything. Well I think might want to raise the impact if we get rid of short sentences you know the early release. Would that make a difference? You've talked about capacity presumption. Yes there's two things there's getting rid of short sentences which may alleviate that but there's also preventing you know abolishing early release. How is that going to impact on your capacity in prisons? Yes in different ways so the presumption against early automatic release will have an impact I don't have the figures but that will result in people being detained for so long so the number is being higher but I think the it's particularly the the kind of processing of short term prisoners who come in for six weeks, eight weeks, three months that that takes up a lot of energy and effort and distracts from working with prisoners so in terms of the short term the number of short term prisoners if there's a presumption against people being sent to prison for shorter sentences then that will reduce the number of people coming in and out of prison but in terms of capacity I think the numbers are quite small that the abolition of automatic early release I mean there's still a lot early release and it's more that it's it's not unconditional and it's not automatic so there's a judgment about it and it is because it's not unconditional it'll be on license so there'll be better supervision so in the longer term hopefully that would lead to reduced re-offending as well and capacities it's not going to impact these are not you know your I don't I don't think the numbers are significant in terms of the of the capacity is this incapacity sneaky what do you mean by that actually on the issues that are raised about older people in the services it's actually how we get to the numbers and I wanted to ask that the you know on the point or in your report in the increase in older people is this an increase in new terms or is this an on their percentage within the establishment because you know it in your address that the reduction in number of young people so I'm wondering if it's effective with the same number of elder older people it's just the percentage is actually yeah and the answer is that it'll be both but my point is that it's an absolute number so we are seeing more more older men in prison I think at the moment there are about 250 men over 60 there are some in the 80s are inspected glenochal this year and there are men in wheelchairs walking with zimmers and sticks and it's quite marked how many older men there are in prison I wanted to really keep to capacity for a bit that's an associate it is associated I was walking back to that John please oh thank you very much can be there morning mr strang I think you have a quite a unique insight mr strang given your membership of the the prisons commission and indeed you alluded to a comment in your report there where you say we talk about in the scotland's choice report we need to investigate in tackling the underlying factors which lead to offending in prison can I ask because again you talk about too many people in prison who would not find themselves there if appropriate support were available for them in the community to what extent if at all are you involved in discussions outwith the walls about alternatives for instance is that within your remit well that's an interesting question because my my legal duties which are laid out in the recent new order says that my duties are to inspect prisons and particularly the conditions in prison and the treatment of prisoners so it's looking at it from the prisoner's perspective and to report publicly but clearly you invite me and you ask me questions so I comment on wider issues I will speak at conferences I'll be engaged in I mean in various committee rooms in the Parliament discussing issues whether it's to do with mental health and offending and so on so I think people expect me to have a view more than just you know the cells clean and do the prisoners get an hour's exercise in the open air I mean those are those are the things that they're entitled to and I will criticise a prison if they don't but I think you know part of my being appointed to this post was because I had you know 12 years experience as a chief constable and I had been a member of the of the Scottish prisons commission so I don't feel constrained only to talk about what I find in a prison cell or in a workshop and that's why I make those comments because clearly the number of people that we and the title of the of the Scottish prisons commission was Scotland's choice I think we as a nation make a choice about how many people we send to prison it's not something that just happens you know inadvertently so we make a choice and I'm saying that if we choose to send as many as we do then we shouldn't be surprised that the outcomes are not good because if people are in prison for a short time then the positive links that they might have had the community relationships are broken they might lose their housing might lose a job and therefore when they leave prison they're less likely to or they're more likely to to re-offend so I think that's perfectly legitimate for me to comment on that and the answer to the question is yes I get asked and I contribute to government consultations I provided a response to the recent community justice bill consultation I think it's appropriate that you are involved given the insight you have are you able to comment on how if at all is work more effective across organisations that that would be involved in the broader issues involving prisons if we say that is a better collaborative work than 2008? I think there's more of awareness that the whole issue about crime and prisons are not just a matter for the police the fiscal the courts and the prison service so I think people are recognised more that you know the life route the life journey of people who end up of many people end up in prison has a huge impact on on their getting there so there are common features of poverty lack of opportunity poor health mental health addictions these are very common features of the backgrounds of people in prison and giving someone a punishment at 20 is not going to address those issues I think it's particularly marked about women in prison we've inspected Cordonville recently and lots of the women in Cordonville have been victims in the past of of victims of crime trauma often have very poor physical health poor mental health levels of addictions and and abuse of violence in the past broken relationships now everyone in prison or everyone who's been convicted has been convicted in a court and and you know from the sheriff's point of view or the judge has been properly sentenced and I don't I don't dispute that but it's what I'm commenting on is the underlying factors that contribute to the offending in the first place I think we're all aware of that I think john was just I think john you were trying to see if it's getting better the interlinking but yes we hear about interagency work and we hear about partnerships is the present phrase and it's just if you you know given the range of time that you've been involved if you if you think we're seeing that bearing fruit that there is a more I think there is I mean I see the prison service being more engaged with the other partner organisations there are public social partnerships like the shine mentor scheme that that out on new routes which is turning point to scotland but but what they do is they engage with prisoners maybe six weeks before release and then they'll meet them on the day of release and and support them so I think there is more but I make I make the point in my report that it's some mainstream services such as housing and health that I think need to do more and I know that was the conclusion from the ministerial group on reducing re-offending as well thank you minister thank you uh elene thank you uh convener um you mentioned in your report that it's a disappointing uh although it's been improved it's still a disappointing level of purposeful activity in practicing some prisons too few places for work education and training disappointing level of wasted opportunity within prison and that and it's making more difficult for prisoners after release to be able to engage in meaningful activity and in fact you make recommendations about a number of the different individual established what really needs to be done because we've had reports on this before we've had sort of uh reports that sex offenders for example are not getting onto the programmes that they need to get on to or that offenders who have there's just to say numeracy issues or maybe not getting the sorts of courses they need what needs to be done to improve the way in which prison the opportunities prisoners get within prison to turn their lives around and to get qualifications and skills that will make them employable later there are a couple of things one is just the absolute number of places and we go to some prisons and they maybe only have workspaces and education for half the prison population so even if all the spaces were filled it would still be insufficient but I think my frustration is more when we're going to a learning centre and find that the classes are half full so the college staff are there but the prisoners haven't come so I think more needs to be done to encourage the prisoners to attend and certainly they're required to work so prisoners can be required to attend work but they can't be required to attend education but I think there's a challenge for the prison service to make sure that the courses they put on are relevant so some prisoners feel that they're not particularly relevant there's been some very good examples I think both in Dumfries and Caunton Vale that are running tenancy and citizenship programmes and those are really popular because prisoners can see the real practicalities and the benefits of doing that so I think that they need to make sure that there are sufficient places but then they need to make sure that the quality and courses are relevant for the prison population and then to encourage prisoners more to attend. I'm actually just recalling that this committee I think it was two years ago did an inquiry into purposeful activity. Rodi, you're in next and I'm disappointed because we know to hear some of the stuff you're saying we found out two years ago in going to various prison establishments so I think you were you here then? No I wasn't on the committee at that time I was just wondering in terms of the more general thing of purposeful activity you're saying that prisoners are obliged to undertake work you know what how much work would the average prisoner do within a week and what's the sort of average amount of work that somebody's obliged to do? Well it does vary but to be they work full time so they work two three hours in the morning and two three hours in the afternoon and prison services are run by prisoners so the kitchens, cleaning and things like recycling and so on and the laundry are run by prisoners so that provides opportunities for work and sometimes to get qualifications. So it's really more on the training side it's not you feel that people are getting sufficient opportunities to do meaningful work to show to our future employer that they've done something where they were inside but it's more the training side. And other opportunities for work there are some good woodwork fabrication where they're making things that are then sold and so on and there's a new venture in Lomos called freedom bakeries where there are some men learning to bake and those are being sold in outlets in Glasgow. Yes and the Great British Bake Off had a governor of a prison who baked wonderful breads and things if you were as low as it to watch it as I do but you know he made it macho to do it. Roddy you want a supplementary on this and then Margaret you want a supplementary on this. I want to thank you convener morning Mr Strang. I just wanted to kind of pull it back to that report that we published on 28 March 2013. One of the things that committee put in this report is that there should be a strategy relating to purposeful activities and as part of that strategy we recommended that the Scottish Prison Service include individual prison plans setting out how each prison will deliver the aims and objectives of the strategy. Looking at your report you talk about considerable progress in developing a strategy but there are still a disappointing level of purposeful activity in practicing some prisons. To what extent I mean have you seen anything resembling kind of an individual prison plan and obviously I visited Perth prison as part of this inquiry and looked at your report on Perth and it just talks about kind of maximising purposeful activity doesn't really give me a clue as to what might be happening in practice and would your job be easier if there was a kind of an individual prison plan that you could refer against as to what should be happening? I would prefer to Scottish Prison Service in response to your report they have developed a strategy for purposeful activity and there is a great deal of work going on and there's a lot of emphasis on preparation for release and through care linking in as I was answering Mr Finney's question about linking in with agencies outside so they've taken a I would say commendably broad view of purposeful activity so there is a strategy I suppose one of my observations about prisons in Scotland is that there is often inconsistency so I'll find pockets of good practice in one place that isn't picked up and implemented elsewhere so I think I think it's fair to say that the prison service have made progress with their purposeful activity and certainly have a strategy and I think what I'm beginning to see and hoping to see more of is the implementation of that strategy at a local level in the 15 prisons across Scotland. I mean this is a recurring theme in previous reports there's kind of a little bit less on purposeful activity in relation to the the establishments this year than in the previous years report for example but in general terms do you believe from the establishments that you've looked at this year that we are actually making an improvement across the piece or is it still kind of disappointing this slow? I think to be fair they are making progress and I think I'm trying to encourage them to make more progress and to move that on so I'd say there's still scope for improving that but it but it is better I think than it was two years ago. And one of the other matters that we referred to in our report was kind of purposeful activity in short-term prisons didn't seem to go together. Any comments on that still an issue from your inspections that the short-term prisons in particular were not engaging in purposeful activity? Yeah so it's difficult I mean someone needs to learn a skill and if they're only in for a very short time it's difficult for them to to be accommodated in in some of those workshops and so on and I think also in terms of motivation a lot of short-term prisoners are thinking well I've only to do four weeks and then I'm out so that there's not the commitment that longer term prisoners have to making a more constructive use of their time. Okay thank you. I've got something to mention the same issue of purposeful activity in Margaret and then other Margaret. Thank you I mean you spoke about the education places not being fully filled and you did that some prisons had looked at this and come up with a change of opportunity of the classes that were available so I suppose my question is around this lack of consistency across all the prisons because you know you say that you know there are some good examples but it just doesn't seem to be consistent and how do you get that consistency across all of the prisons are they not learning from each other that you know what works in one place well I can see it may not work for all prisoners but surely there should be a consistency because purposeful activity I presume that's the new pc for rehabilitation because I thought that was a whole no. No it was purposeful activity was so that you just weren't sitting in your cell and quite a lot was to do with what you're touching on which was the literacy and numeracy of prisoners which was very low and we were quite shocked in that one about the education provision it was sort of old fashioned in some places sitting at a desk trying them which was not the way that some people would do it so no it wasn't very broad. Aha but to be incarcerated one of the reasons is to be rehabilitated and to you know there's got that opportunity and certainly you mentioned in your report about the wasted opportunity so how do you get that consistency then what can be done to improve that? I mean there's some good examples of you know rather than just learning in a classroom where perhaps in one of the the workshops that the college staff will be engaged in some of the teaching and so it's more practical which which often is well received by the prisoners are more likely to engage with. Prisons are very different I mean there's some small local prisons obviously there's some that are women only young offenders only. I mean what I try and do through my reporting is to identify good practice and to encourage those to be taken up elsewhere I think clearly governors are allowed some local discretion and particularly if they're linking in with a local organisation that might be available in one particular place but might not be available elsewhere so there are some legitimate reasons I think why they might be different but I would like to see more consistency of what's available and what's delivered across all the prisons particularly identifying the pieces of good practice and I don't want them all consistently down to the lowest common denominator obviously I want them to be improving what they're doing right across across Scotland and I mean in terms of when we publish a report we then follow that up and we'll see what progress each prisoner is making in in terms of implementing the recommendations or conclusions from our report. You mentioned that it's still on purpose for activity. Yes the regime for some prisoners was very restricted and I'm assuming that's for a purposeful activity so what can be done in that case is that for specific prisoners who are perhaps not allowed out their cells or is it? Well I think particularly where perhaps you've got some prisoners on protection because of the offence if they're being convicted of sexual offences they can't mix with what are called the mainstream prisoners so I quite understand but they will have access to the gym, nasium perhaps at a different time but they won't get as much and so that's what I was highlighting in my report there that I mean I inspect if you like on behalf of all the prisoners and so obviously the majority of time when in a prison is is geared towards the mainstream the bulk of prisoners but where there are prisoners who have to be kept separate then I'm just highlighting that to the prison that they must make sure that they don't ignore the needs of those prisoners and make sure that they get access to other activities visits and the gym and exercise and so on. Yes it was just to be quite clear I think when we had evidence about short-term prisoners then it wasn't so much they weren't engaging but they didn't have the opportunity to to engage is that still the case? It is because often there's a waiting list and this relates back to my point that there aren't sufficient places for everyone and therefore someone might want to get on a painting and decorating course but that programme might be running at the moment and there might be a three month waiting list well if you're doing a three month sentence you won't get on to it so it is partly about engagement but it is also about availability. I don't know how the committee feels it might be interesting if we've got space to look back at our report two years ago when we did a purposeful activity and then see how much has changed given what you're saying to us because I know that the numerously illiteracy thing was quite an issue for those of us who visited the young offenders and some of it was you know dogs trust had them with rescue dogs, staffies, I don't know if they still do it and they were writing and doing things you would not normally have done because it was engaged in something else and the same with them bikes that they were repairing bikes I don't know this but it would be good to go back I think would you recommend I think that we go back to that report in the light of what you're telling us and say well let's have a wee look back and see what's changed? I think you'll find that that a lot has changed I mean those examples that you've given of the pause for progress at Poment was an example of where I was saying that the learning staff were working on the care for the stray dogs and then the recycler biker are two good examples yes they're good examples of practical skills that young men might be able to use when they leave and certainly I mean in the last two years the whole area the two activities blocks in Poment have been completely refurbished and and made much more fit for purpose there and they have a radio station at a couple of prisons and it's just those sorts of things. Was it just the practical it was the fact that they were writing yes they were writing and would not if they were sitting at a desk being asked to write would never have done it but because it was part of something they were interested in they were prepared to write they were measuring making things therefore the numeracy was being expanded but not at the dry sitting at a dry desk yes no Poment have completely reviewed I mean they've done there's been a project working with Education Scotland and they approach is much more attuned to the learning needs of teenagers rather than how can I add out numeracy and literacy. The committee might want to consider whether we go back and look at that I'm going back down my list Gil it's moved about a bit because you've all popped in at different times of course it's okay because I'm saying so it's Gil all right it's Gil Rodd Christian then Margaret McDougall again so there we are I've missed you I'll put you in after Gil Margaret I tell you you scare me Margaret Mitchell comes after Gil right Gil Margaret Mitchell Rodd Christian Margaret McDougall that's really democratic Gil. Mr Stry I wanted to in the first time I should have said this I was very impressed with your report and the way it was presented I found it a very easily read document and I wanted to talk about Poment that you know it's there's you say a lot about that in your report and particularly about this drop in numbers that's quite a significant drop and I wondered what you put that down to you know a drop like that in seven years seems quite quite quite remarkable. It is and it's something that I think is very encouraging there are a number of different answers I don't have the expert answer on that I mean clearly as I said in a way that the number of people being sentenced to a prison sentence is not a matter for the prison service and I know that kind of going back to my old job within within you know the approach to youth offending something called the whole systems approach which was trying to keep teenagers out of the criminal justice system as long as possible with diversion schemes with trying to pick up people who are at risk of being excluded from school aged sort of 12 13 so I think there's been a lot of partnership activity to try and support youngsters who are at risk of going off the rails and and so I think we're beginning to see the the products of that whole systems approach that certainly the Edinburgh transition study of Leslie McHara and Susan McBee that studied a whole generation of teenagers in Edinburgh the evidence there was that the that to keep them out of the criminal justice system produced the best results as possible and therefore I think that that approach to dealing with with the teenagers at risk of offending has had an impact but I think the work I would say that the work being done at Pullmont has resulted in fewer people returning so I think I think you know it's legitimate to say that some of the work that's done at Pullmont engaging with young people to try and get them because a lot of them are very disaffected with authority they don't want you know to engage with education and so it's you know it's a double challenge really to to get alongside a young man at Pullmont and to say look your life could be different there are you know what skills do you have what are you interested in is there something more positive than just going straight out to to re-offend and and certainly in the last two years I know because I was speaking to the the governor there recently that the number of of young men returning into custody has reduced significantly and and I think that's will be as a product of what they're doing there in Pullmont. The other thing you mentioned I know you touched on the learning environment I was going to ask you a question that if you wanted to fleshed out a bit more that would be good but associated with that you also talk about the importance of maintaining family links and particularly for young men in Pullmont and I noticed within your report that there's something quite innovative there in regard to how they how they tackle it could you Yes the family yes so right across prisons in Scotland there there's a real recognition that one of the factors that will help reduce re-offending is about relationships with family and friends where those are constructive and in a lot of cases they can be now relationships in Pullmont often for the young men with their with their mothers or with their partners a lot of them have children have babies and so it's about trying to help them to understand their responsibilities as family members but also trying to encourage family links and to either try and restore the relationship that's broken or to encourage it so the the quite a few prisons now have a family help hub certainly in at Caunton Vale there's a very positive family centre there where because it can be quite daunting for a family who's coming to visit someone in prison and particularly if they have to travel some distance so they they it's a kind of welcoming environment they can get a cup of tea and coffee they can have their questions answered and it just encourages them to come and certainly at Pullmont they have a double decker bus that is kitted out for children to come and so it's a less a less daunting experience and just encourages those links between the person in prison and their family and it sees initiatives that you reckon is driving down the the the numbers of reoffending that's that's what's coming to you but i think it's all um i suppose about trying to um well it's looking at the factors which contribute to reducing refending so things like having somewhere to live i mean we still see people walking out of prison not knowing whether they're going to sleep that night and and you know you can just see that that is is a tribute to reoffending having um uh i mean if people have still got addictions problems then having health care needs to be in place um if they can have a job some sort of purpose activity in their life outside prison but um supportive family relationships are seen as positive because they can be well from both sides from the positive you know if you can inspire someone to want to to live as a as a father or a partner in a positive way but also it can be sort of reducing the negative so that it stops them going out and and getting involved in in crime and violence if if they know that there's a positive family support for them to that particular point about family contact in relation to shots prison and the lack of the availability to meet the demand for father and child visits what specifically is is is at the timetabling is that the actual space in the prism or could something to the the same in the same lines or on the same lines as the the bus idea for a moment be introduced into shots what what's the nature of the problem is a long-term prison and such national facilities so you've got the distance issue i mean if you've ever travelled to shots but unless you live in shots villages it's a kind of challenge to travel there i think my comments about the father and child was that where we saw it it was really good because this is you know bringing the child in having contact with with the father and i know low moss which is more of a local person has a very well-developed homework club and so on so that the fathers can be engaged more in the in the lives of of their children and there was partly to do with with the timetabling that but it's quite it's quite difficult particularly if they have to travel to do anything after school of an evening so it would tend to be weekend so i think we were recommending that they scheduled more of those family and child father and child visits during the weekend when it was easier for people to travel to to shops okay thank you and you mentioned some excellent examples support for vulnerable prisoners in particular in addressing needs of mental healthcare or drug addiction could you elaborate a little bit on that and i noticed earlier in your opening comments i think it was you you mentioned the underlying causes which need to be identified now wonder to the extent that adult or sexual abuse is looked at it's an issue has been raised in female prisons it's also a huge issue in male prisons which i don't think really has been touched on yes there's an organisation called open secret to support prisoners who and men and women who have been victims of sexual abuse i think for people who you know haven't been in prison one of the most shocking things is seeing the poor health of people they are both physical health but particularly mental health and and addictions i'm not i'm not obviously saying for everybody and there are lots of you know robust men who are quite healthy but have committed crime are rightly in prison but there are a number of people who and i think particularly that overlap between addictions and mental health problems and i know it's been it's not near i'm an expert on but been written about elsewhere about personality disorders which is not a treatable mental illness but has a big impact on how people behave and so there's a sizable population and i suppose what i have been impressed with is the work that's done in the health centres so all prisoners will have a multidisciplinary mental health team and i think there's a greater awareness amongst prison officers so i'll talk about you know uniformed employees of the Scottish Prison Service of issues of of mental health and particularly prisoners who are vulnerable and liable to self harm and potential suicide so there are so the specialist medical support so mental health nurses, psychiatrists in prison providing that support and but that but that in a way just takes place in the in the medical centre you know that as a as an appointment as a as a clinic perhaps one to one counselling or some sort of a treatment medication and then there's also what happens where they live so they go to the health centre and they see a psychiatrist or a mental health nurse and they get some treatment but they then return to the wing or the hall and in their cell and that's i think where the role of the prison officer which is looking out for vulnerability and and i mean clearly someone who's very vulnerable will be in placed on or that's called act to care which is their programme for vulnerable prisoners and they might be on hourly observations and so on but what what i what i see and impresses me is the enormous care and effort that both the health staff and and the the prison officers invest in trying to support the most vulnerable of of people in prison you know the big picture is yes they will have committed offences and so you know they should be there but actually i would argue this is true when we come on to talking about older people you know is being in prison the best place for for where these people are most of them fall through the net and somehow don't get picked up by other social services so they end up in a police cell in a court and in the prison and so that's really what i meant about being impressed with the support that's provided for vulnerable prisoners. I think it's always been an issue of those people that we find in prison who are not threatened to the public but are a threat to themselves and you know whether that's the right place for them just to learn the addiction side of things i noticed you you covered the new psychotic substances and no there's no test for that and that there's them a huge prevalence of these substances what recording is there of incidents involving these substances it's difficult because they don't necessarily know that there have been i mean obviously if they found with it on on them then that can be recorded and and so on but they what the finding is that people are suspected of taking them and then they can be very violent unpredictable and i certainly know that my counterpart in england wales nick hardwick has has is seeing a huge increase in the use of the new psychoactive substances or legal highs as they're sometimes known and there's a big markup in price because they're legal outside but attractive inside so there's a sort of 10 to 1 markup and so they become a commodity for bullying and intimidation and violence as well as the behavior of the person who's who's taken them and i suppose i raise it because i think it's a it's a growing phenomenon just as it is you know outside in the community what happens outside in the community is reflected in inside a prison and therefore it's something i think that i would want to flag up as a potential risk for the future but what actual recording is there of something that involves a psychotic substance and then are we going backwards to look at the the subject that is there the substance that might be available in prison can be bought and mixed with something else i mean how are we trying to address this now when he established there is a problem prison has a has a an operations department and an intelligence unit and so they will they investigate all those cases where they're found and see you know who their associates are and and i mean obviously um the security and the perimeter is meant to prevent illegal substances coming in but i mean create prisoners and other people will find ways of getting substances in but to answer your question yes i mean they do analysis and they do try and track and get the intelligence picture and to try and prevent it happening again so would something be banned because it's been known to be used not for the purpose that it's said and it didn't but for for something else um yeah so i think it's it would be clear if it was found that that that would be banned and people so uh um someone visiting obviously wouldn't be allowed to to bring that in if it was found on them um yeah education with the prisoners because some of these um some of the substance can have horrific effects i mean there's been absolutely and i think um uh you know that's a that's a key part of it is is the education that's that's one of the very frightening things about the use of of um mps i think is partly obviously don't know what's in the mix um if you're injecting pure heroin you know what you're injecting you know what heroin is and what it does to you but i think some of these new psychoactive substances is injected depending what it's mixed with and so on so um part of part of the kind of whole health education and one of the new standards that we inspect against is how much health promotion is that so um things like bloodborne viruses, hepatitis, hiv, sexual health and use of substances is included in in education in in prison health education programmes. To explain to me are you talking about these packets of things that are passed by the visitor to the prisoner rather than manufactured in situ? No they're not manufactured no they will come in. Right so they passed them to them how is that not detected um when visitors come if you just explain that um you know when the visitor comes to meet the prisoner whoever comes and this is passed to them. Are these not monitored in cctv or are you about visitor rooms and so on and just trying to get to the back of this you know? Yes um I mean all people visiting are searched and their bags are searched um but um you know if you've got something small sewn into your jacket it might not be found um and while the visits room is supervised um you know you could imagine being able just to pass something at some point so it's not foolproof i mean they do seriously take that i mean there's a balance because I would be critical if a prison was to draconian with visitors so you know it's a balance of wanting you know going back to our previous conversation about encouraging visitors to come and children and so on um but i mean there are other ways that drugs get into prison people come from court or to on. I'll just stand up but go back to Margaret's point have it have the many recordings of you know these being discovered being passed to prisoners um are there any facts behind that i mean you've got down here is a behaviour that lets people know something's happened and the prisoners behaving in a bizarre fashion but have there been any from Margaret's point of view recording of you know substances being taken from visitors? Yes there will undoubtedly be I don't have those figures but um the the prison service um will have a record of all that they find on on searches of prisoners I think that useful for us to to know that. Roddie I think you were coming in on that as well I think I'm exhausted that one I'll come in on video links if I can. Well come in on it because it's your question now. Thank you. In your report you say scope for increasing the use of video linking. I'm not really sure from your report how extensive video links are in courts today and what that scope is so perhaps you could elaborate on that. Yes happy to I was in in Venice prison last spring and they had or spring last year and it was a young man who was due to appear at Stornoway chair of court from in Venice now before the days of video linking he would have been taken by escort six in the morning to the airport flown over gone to the court uh appeared in court and flown back come back and got back at eight o'clock at night now he uh I stood at the back of the room and he went into a room in in in Venice prison video linked up to the sheriff court the sheriff you could see and he asked to confirm his name and he said are you being guilty or not guilty he said still not guilty and he was remanded for another three weeks or whatever it was and uh I think the whole hearing took about 40 seconds and if you just think about you know all that was saved from from that so um and I think I mean that was a quite a dramatic example because it it saved such a lot in terms of of effort and disruption uh to no good purpose I mean uh and I think that could be we could be doing more of that now there are um I know that the um whether it's the Government of SPS of the court service but have a programme for rolling out video linking um to um to all the prisons and and to link up to courts but I don't think it's it's um in place everywhere yet but sometimes it could be used for a consultation with with the lawyer so other than the lawyer having to come to the prison they can have a video link and then as I say unnecessary journeys to court for a procedural hearing um and I just think it would be more use of of resources in your reviewing of individual prisons inspection will you be focusing on the extent to which prisons that you're visiting are actually using video technology yes I do and I have commented that there I suppose the difficulty for the the prison is that it's often it's not it's not there failings either the technology or the court's not willing to use it or it's not suitable or or depends laws for one reason or the other still want to come to the prison so um but it is something that that I look at it was a more general comment that that the scope for improving the use of it okay thank you thank you very much questionful by Margaret question a comment on video linking uh how are we uh I didn't see a new report regarding uh families being able to uh video link with uh with prisoners and there are some examples of that um when um at the time two years ago when um Peterhead and Aberdeen closed and before grand pain opened the prisoners were moved down to Perth and Barlin Age shots and um there was a system set up in Aberdeen at the offices of Apex Scotland where the family could go there and link in and so that was successful and I know that that continues uh a bit and I've also been told of an example of a foreign national in a Scottish prison who had a Skype conversation with a member of family overseas so so it can be done um uh and I think I think the scope for for uh increasing that I mean it has to be um obviously supervised and monitored carefully to see what's what's being said but um in uh in general it is being used and could be used more it should be welcome because it reduced the cost on the on the prison but the cost on the families as well um yes and I suppose it it's better than no contact but I think face to face contact is better than video link contact okay on the on the thematic inspections I work quite uh first of all you you contacted one uh this year and we should have uh report findings uh soon yes um so um that report is being compiled at the moment um so that I was looking at the use of uh separation and reintegration so the um a small number of prisoners who are kept in in isolation in segregation and we've been particularly looking at uh a number who've been kept in for for a long period so sometimes people are perhaps removed and put in segregation for three days and then returned to to mainstream um what this report is looking at uh longer term people who are kept in segregation for a longer term and maybe moved from one prison to another um and um that report will I'll be publishing that after Christmas after Christmas and what about 2016 uh you are you are going to contact thematic inspections as well will that include uh uh HM uh uh grampian as well will what be uh uh included in the thematic inspection yes um in grampian will be well we're doing we're conducting a full inspection of grampian uh later this month all right so yes um will that include what we talked about the raid is radio I think we have we have started the radio service as well uh I mean we'll look at the whole the whole aspect I mean our 10 standards mean that we look at every aspect of of the prison how the prisoners are treated what purpose activity they are what the healthcare is like if it's a safe prison what relationships are like and how well prisoners are prepared for for release so we'll we'll examine every aspect of the person's life and you can do this mobile the thematic inspection for next year the no no no no generally because I don't want to just focus on your patch um we are going to be conducting a thematic inspection next year on the high care needs of older prisoners so I mentioned that and I highlight that in my report that um it's an increasing challenge for the prison service with um particularly older men and with you know physical infirmities as well as um sort of dementia Alzheimer's and so on um but it but it's an expensive way of looking after a patient and and I know that if they have to widen a cell door to allow a wheelchair in that cost something like 7 000 pounds and so we'll be looking to see what the needs are of this growing population and how best they're being met and I think particularly it's not just medical needs but it's social care so it's health and social care needs because if a prisoner maybe needs help with washing and dressing um how should that be provided that it's not the job of a nurse it's not the job of a prison officer so you know that I think there's some interesting issues I know some prisoners of clinical buy in social care assistants who will come and help with washing and dressing but it's and it's not just a one-off it's it's an increasing population and problem for the prison service it would be quite interesting to see the impact on staff particularly absolutely yeah yeah when you're doing a report on that particular issue which I don't think we were aware of the growing um resource implications and so on when it's are you going to do a full report on that particular very specifically yes I'm going to conduct that next year so that's going to be a thematic inspection that we'll conduct in the first half of of next year and when will that report be out um approximate maybe I appreciate you are just well probably in about a year's time I mean but I think we're doing six months fieldwork and then three months of analysis and write up so in the autumn I would think next year at the same time as you're doing that report is the head of the prison service Colin McConnell looking at this and is the Government looking at it so that you know there's a there's a collective view of this not just sitting still waiting for you no no no I know that they they know it's an issue and um and I suppose particularly with the health and social care integration joint boards and so on the the responsibilities on the local authority as as well as as the health service so no I know that they are looking at that well maybe raise this further with the cab sec I think as well Margaret then I'll come in if you've got somebody else Margaret you've been wasting thank you I suppose just to follow up on the NHS then and obviously looking at your report you have listed some recommendations for most of the prisons around NHS how helpful are the NHS's partners in helping with prisoners and prison life that's a very broad question I mean someplace it works really well and others not so well there are certain services that I think are particularly dental services where prisoners have to wait quite a long time for an appointment and some on remand or in short sentences won't get access to routine dental care obviously four years ago now the responsibility provision of health care in prisons transferred from the prison service to the local NHS board of which there are nine across Scotland that have have prisons so that there is there's good liaison between the NHS management and the prison management and I see a lot of good examples of joint working within the prison particularly with vulnerable prisoners but there are some places I think I talk about medication you know every prison every day is giving out daily medication by by the NHS staff and so it's a it's a big commitment and if there's you know shortage of staff then that can cause problems for the smooth running of the prison so they have to work together closely at an operational level on a daily basis and in most places that happens well there are some places where it's not as smooth as it could be and I sometimes find you know one side will blame the other and the operational staff will say what was that the NHS and the nurse will say well that was the operational staff so where I make a recommendation that they need to sort out some of those some of those problems but you know health is is healthcare provision is a big part of prison life and you speak to to prisoners you know they'll complain about the food and their visits and healthcare I mean those are the sort of three primary things that people will complain about on healthcare I mean mental health is a particular issue within the prison population so how best should that be being delivered and is it being delivered well I said earlier that I was impressed with the support that was being given for people in prison with with mental health problems but there are still I mean I'm obviously not in any way medically qualified and there are but I know there are prisoners who are diagnosed with with personality disorder that do not move on elsewhere I mean there are others with serious mental health illness that might be moved to the state hospital or into a medium secure unit but I know that the prison service expresses frustration that that doesn't happen as easily or smoothly as as they would like it to and so I think that they and certainly I observed that they are left having to care for people with with mental health problems who I kind of was a layperson you feel is this really the best place for this person to be being treated and just on a different subject I'm not up to date with what's happening around the visiting committees I believe really disbanded some time ago and new story about yes independent prison monitoring so this committee I know considered the order in December and it was passed by the Parliament in January and that moved the responsibility for prison visiting committees which you're referring to and they so they were replaced on the 31st of August this year by a scheme of independent prison monitors and they are now my responsibility so I've recruited four coordinators as a national coordinator and three regional coordinators and they in turn have recruited we've got over a hundred independent prison monitors and since the 31st of August every prison in Scotland has been visited every week by the new independent prison monitors and they're beginning to pick up prisoners complaints their monitors so that they carry out observe practice and will comment on what they find in the prison that then gets fed back to the prison governor and there's a new scheme for the prisons to contact an independent prison monitor so if they want to speak to a monitor there is now a free phone number in every prison that they can phone so it doesn't have to go through a prison officer to make that request it'll come in to the office of the monitors and then that will be allocated to the next independent prison monitor who visits about a third of our monitors were previously visiting committee members so that's been quite helpful to have that continuity but obviously two thirds are brand new and come from a wide background there's a much greater age range so we've got younger monitors we've got some university students who maybe do it for two three years and just take a real interest so we're beginning to gather a picture of what issues are being raised by prisoners and I know that next month in December each of the coordinators is meeting with their governor of the prison to feed back what the findings of the of the new monitors yeah and can I say that's heartening to us because much of what you've said is what the committee I think recommended particularly about the age range but yes absolutely Gil, have you still got a short question? With regards to older people in prison with the you know health needs chronic health needs by the sign of what you said Mr Strang does the parole board get involved in issues like that did they look at that in some fashion with some discretion are there any discretion to release people if they're in these situations? I'm not going to speculate on that because I'm not clear what the parole board take into account in terms of making decisions. Okay thanks for that. Can I say thank you very much for your evidence and I just while you're there Mr Strang I just wondered if the committee want following on this several things we've picked up on purposeful activity you know what happened since our inquiry and we actually had I think Colin McConnell before us after that inquiry and your evidence today we've also raised the issue of particularly older prisoners and also the issue of psychoactive substances and the stats perhaps that they do have to add and I'm just going to suggest to the committee do you want me to write in these three particular bullet points first of all to Colin McConnell on behalf of the committee and perhaps see if we could have a minute we've got a gap but he could answer in writing but also have a gap to have a minute some point in the new year to deal just to keep this going. How do you feel about that? I think you'll give the opportunity to have to develop this further to keep it going and not let it go off the boil a bit. I've got Christian then I've got John. It's a very good idea convener but just want out that we make sure that we've got the thematic report findings before we've got that. I don't know if we need to even wait just to have some comments on those issues that have been raised by the committee. I think it comes in just after Christmas so what should be wrong? No, no. We've finished the evidence session. I don't mind joining the discussion. I thought you might be interested in knowing where we're going, where we're going from it so no question to other questions just trying but Jess John. Well convener of course it would be very good to have that information but I think that's something we should pick up as part of our discussions of a work programme because there are a number of other compelling matters that I think we would all like to consider. Well could we just even write out first of all on these issues? I think to write out and see what comes back first of all. I think it's quite good because I've forgotten about to some extent about a purpose and activity report two years ago and of course we are so under such pressure from legislation we don't get to check up what's happened and what the committee has done so I think we'll write out the first instance and see what Mr Cornwall has to say. Thank you very much for your evidence Mr Strang and I suspend. Now suspend for five minutes as we move on to the next item business and we're going to private session.