 Hi, everybody. I'd like to all welcome you to this afternoon's panel with our industry analysts. This is really exciting for me, and I think exciting for the OpenStack Foundation, as this is actually the first time that we've had a panel of industry analysts in front of an open session like this. So I think that's really cool. My name is Mike Schuster. I'm from NetApp. I manage analyst relations there. And OpenStack's been kind of cool for me because I've been supporting our team since the very beginning, so going back five or six years. And I think I've been to every OpenStack summit since. So it's been fun traveling around the world and watching the technology mature and the growth of the community. It's just amazing to me that here in Austin, we're already up to 7,500 people, which is really, really exciting. I also am very impressed with the survey, some of the survey numbers they talked about this morning, including the latest survey showing 65% of users in production today, which is quite an increase from just a year ago. So we're really seeing a lot of momentum in this community. And what we wanted to do today was have kind of an open and candid conversation with our industry analyst friends who can give their real perspectives on what they're seeing in this community. And of course, as the community grows, more analysts are covering it. This group represents a number of different perspectives as they cover the technologies and strategies, including perspectives from Enterprise IT, Telco, IoT, DevOps. So with that, let me just welcome Steve O'Grady of Redmauk and Colm Keegan of ESG, Paul Miller of Forrester Research, Renee Bruce of Chris Research, and of course, Raz Roseboro of Heavy Reading. So to get started, let's just go down the line starting with Steve. And if each of you could just kind of introduce yourselves and kind of give a quick perspective of your firms, how long you've been all covering OpenStack, and how it compares to other open source communities that you've looked at and covered over the last couple of years and what you're seeing with your clients. So we'll just go down the line and we'll start with Steve. OK, fair enough. So I don't know if you guys can tell. This is the brightest lights I've ever seen. So the only thing I can literally see is lights. I would love to look all of you in the eye. I can literally see nothing. Anyway, I'm Steve O'Grady and the co-founder of Redmauk. Redmauk, if you haven't heard of us, is a developer focused industry analyst firm. So that's essentially the lens through which we view the world. We've covered actually OpenStack since before there actually was an OpenStack project dating back to the original code drops from NASA and from Rackspace and the original inception of that community. So that's kind of our background. We've been covering this for a long time. And where it is today, I think it's been interesting to see. It's a project that has clearly achieved a critical mass and a critical momentum. And from my perspective, it is really sort of at a crossroads in terms of where it goes. It's hit that critical mass. But we're getting to the point where a lot of customers are beginning choices and choices are going to have impacts for a long time in terms of, am I going to go private? Am I going to go public? So it's very, very interesting to see at events like this sort of what the pulse is and what a lot of you in the room are thinking in terms of where this sits vis-a-vis some of your other investments. So that's me. Hello, my name is Colin Keegan. I'm with ESG. We're a Boston-based analyst firm focused on market research. So we cover all the different technology segments that Enterprise IT is concerned with. I focus on cloud, which is an all-encompassing term, which is way too vague. But in general, what I look at is IT data center transformation. What are the decisions that folks like you are making to Steve's point that are going to have longer-term ramifications? How are they going to integrate into your existing legacy environments? How are solutions like OpenStack potentially going to play a role? I've been covering OpenStack for just about a year now. So I'm probably the newbie on the panel here, I would guess. But as Steve said, clearly tons of momentum. What I'm kind of tracking, though, is we're seeing some really impressive use cases way upmarket, large enterprises that obviously don't necessarily correlate directly to obviously mid-market or even small enterprise, which I tend to cover pretty closely. And what I see out there is I see a lot of business through the research we see and interviews that I have with folks really struggling to get IT as what we call a complete IT as a service capabilities or sort of like an Amazon-like experience on-prem. So, and this is with the proprietary stacks, whether they're VMware or Microsoft or something else. So technologies they've had experience with and we're seeing the needle move really slowly to that in that direction. So it sort of begs the question, what can OpenStack potentially do to help accelerate that journey and or is it just making it more complex, right? Because if you can't manage what you already have, how in the world are you going to bring in something else? But to that end, we are seeing, I think, a lot of great ways for businesses to bring this into their environment without having to do the heavy lifting, whether that comes in the form of some sort of pre-integrated technology or working with service providers that have been in the OpenStack game for a long time. So that's kind of what I pay attention to and through my research are trying to find how businesses are going to solve that issue of being able to get private cloud capabilities but also then the hybrid world of having the optimal mix of managing workloads on-prem and in the cloud as it makes business sense. Hi everyone, my name's Paul Miller. I'm with Forrester Research. Forrester is based in Cambridge, Massachusetts but I'm based in the UK in one of the teams there. I joined Forrester in August of last year but have been covering OpenStack itself since the Portland Summit a number of years back. And my area of coverage at Forrester is pretty broad. It's like yourself, the cloud, whatever that means. A number of my colleagues and there are some others here at the summit as well focus down on particular aspects of cloud computing such as private cloud or public cloud or whatever it may be because I'm in Europe where we have less of a presence. I cover things much more broadly. I think one of the interesting things I'm seeing just in the last summit or two is the resurrection of OpenStack as a serious public cloud choice. We've heard a few times that OpenStack started life as the big alternative to Amazon essentially which didn't really come to pass. Maybe it never would have. And so there was a big focus for a number of years on OpenStack as a private cloud solution and we saw some data from Al in the previous session as well talking about that. But I think just in the last year, maybe six months to a year we've begun to see a number of organizations with credibility and with scale beginning to use OpenStack as the way that they offer a public cloud solution of their own whether that's a company like Huawei in China going with telco partners around the world to deliver public cloud solutions whether it's a company like Dream Compute launching a public cloud solution of its own. And I think that's an interesting shift that bears some looking at as things move forward. Yeah, hello everyone. My name is Rini Bust. I'm with Chris Research, a German analyst company. So I traveled a lot to come here. Yeah, we are a technology research company covering actually the digitization which includes IoT and machine learning data and I'm responsible for the cloud there so I'm cloud practice lead. And we are covering OpenStack since five years now and at the end of 2014 we did the first and actually only OpenStack study in Germany and well this year around 2%, really 2% had OpenStack in production. You mean you think okay this is quite less but for Germany this is quite a lot because when it comes to new technology especially in information technology Germany is not that, let's say, the front runner. We are more focused on best practices but we are already planning a new study an update study for OpenStack in this year. And what we are seeing is that now more and more enterprise are adopting OpenStack. For example, in the German DAX companies like we saw Volkswagen today or also SAP they are trying really hard to create their new infrastructure foundations and they are doing it with OpenStack but what we also see is that the complexity is there and for example also the Deutsche Telekom I think you know them, they have launched the OpenTelekom cloud which has been built by Huawei and they are actually the Huawei is developing it, is running it and also is also responsible for the innovation and the systems or Deutsche Telekom is telling them what they actually wanted and this is also the next point when it comes for example to public cloud it is really it's pretty hard for service providers who are using OpenStack to compete with AWS to be clear here, to be really, really clear here because what we see is a big lack of innovation coming from the community of the OpenStack community but what we also see is that companies like Huawei are trying really hard to do more than just what the community is doing so for example it's not that big but within the OpenTelekom cloud you are able to add special bandwidth per server which is actually not a functionality you can get out of the source code or out of the community from OpenStack so yeah I think that the community really must work hard to deliver new to deliver innovations in order to be able to compete with the big public cloud vendors. Hi my name is Ros Rosbarro I am a senior analyst at Heavy Reading some of you might be familiar with our sister company I suppose Light Reading and we are a telecom focused firm and so I think I'm probably, sounds like I'm the only one here who's strictly looking at Telco my coverage area is actually the Telco data center primarily looking at it from an infrastructure standpoint but also looking at things like virtualization so for me I'm looking at OpenStack in the context of managing virtual resources one of my coworkers Caroline some of you might know also looks at OpenStack from a mano perspective I personally have been only looking at this very briefly actually a little longer than you come I joined Heavy Reading about just over two years ago but I've been covering Telco for about 16 years so it's actually been quite remarkable for me to go from the Telco environment which like you were saying it's actually quite conservative and to see people like 18 Team Verizon publicly coming out and not just telling you about it but also kind of evangelizing and promoting it never would have thought that would happen because Telcos tend to be very, we want to control it and it's proprietary and it's our secret sauce and so for me it's just been a sea change to see how quickly this has been happening we did some research about a year ago asking about which open source projects were most important and then were they most engaged with and just in the course of the year we went from about 23% to well over 60% of Telcos globally we're indicating that they're either using or planning to adopt OpenStack which again I think it's pretty remarkable to see given how Telcos generally operate So let's stay with Roz for just a second because you're talking about Telcos we saw AT&T use this, win the Super User Award this morning and I know you've only, you've been covering Telco for a long time but you've only been recently covering OpenStack what are some of the use cases that you've seen and what's compelling, what are you finding really compelling for some of the Telcos that they're seeing in OpenStack in this relatively short amount of time? Yeah, well I think the biggest thing is this whole new move towards network function virtualization because the end state for a lot of them is to deliver all those services from the cloud so they're looking at OpenStack as a way to manage both the resources as well as do the service orchestration so I think that's probably the primary driver behind most of the momentum behind OpenStack in the Telco environment. There is obviously some public cloud, public cloud that's driving some of it but I think probably more of that's actually coming from private cloud. A lot of them that I speak with are looking to again deliver services from public cloud as well as their own internal IT. They're trying to do some rationalization and standardization of some of their platforms. So I think it's a combination of those but I'd say of the three I would say NFV is probably the biggest driver. That's usually the context from which I hear people talking about OpenStack and Telco. Can you just, some of us aren't as Telco literate as you are. So can you just describe what some of those services are exactly? I know it's like load balancing security in those types of things. Right, I'm sorry, yeah. I forget that not everybody is into this as much as I am. Essentially what they're doing is taking their purpose built platforms like their routers and like I said load balancing firewall dedicated appliances that were purpose built to do a certain function. What they're wanting to do is turn all of that into software and run it on general purpose x86 servers. So it's gonna look more and more like a cloud kind of infrastructure but it's a huge shift and there's all sorts of performance issues and things going on. So what they're doing is very similar to what the enterprises are doing in terms of the platforms, the architectures they're trying to get to. Great. So for Paul and Renee, well before we move off Telco being that you're both from Europe, what are you seeing in Europe as well? In terms of Telcos. I think Paul is more for the Europe perspective. I can more talk about the German perspective. Germany's in Europe. Germany is part of Europe. This is true. So we are building a team right now. From a German perspective, I think SAP is a good example what we saw this morning and we have also followed this project which is now almost two years old. It was called Monsoon. It was actually a startup within SAP and also met the project manager behind and it is actually interesting because SAP, in the beginning, they used to just to build a new foundation under their global infrastructure to be able to deliver resources more quickly. So to give their internal developers on demand access to virtual machines, to software but then also put a cloud foundry on top also to give them more capabilities to develop new things. And it's actually the same with Volkswagen. Also we saw it today. And it is the same with other DAX companies in Germany so that they wanted to automate the infrastructure and also to be able to have an infrastructure which is actually prepared for the digital age. Even if we are digitizing for 30 years now but actually you have to be more agile, to be more flexible on the infrastructure layer in order to deliver the things, your resources internally much faster but also to your customers. And I think Rene's point there about building applications and building infrastructure for the digital age is really important. We often hear that Europe lags six months, 12 months whatever it may be behind North America in terms of cloud adoption. And that may be true. It depends which data you happen to look at but I think one of the things we very clearly see is a more considered approach. When a European organization like BMW, like VW like one of these others goes all in they're not just getting another way to run some VMs. They're not just interested in OpenStack or any other IS on its own. They really are sort of looking for a much more polished much more rounded solution that includes things like cloud foundry or OpenShift includes some of the analytics capabilities that they're beginning to look for on top you know machine learning type capabilities as well. So really looking for a set of services, a set of solutions that enables them to solve a business problem and a digital transformation problem not just let's find another way to run some VMs perhaps a cheaper way to run some VMs. Let's turn to Steve. Steve you focus on one of your key areas application development. Can you talk a little bit about what you're seeing in terms of adoption by application developers what's compelling for them and what's changed over the last year or so? Sure, I think the biggest change for me and I say this literally all the time you know essentially is the speed of provisioning right. You know so in other words if we go back a couple years ago it was very normal you know for developers to have to wait you know weeks, months you know if they're able to get sort of infrastructure at all the public cloud has you know really reset that you know sort of overnight. So the default expectation for a lot of developers who are building on top of or around open stack based projects is that they want that same experience. So that's the thing is that there are a lot of people who do what we all do you know who will sit down and look at the numbers and say look there's no reason that anybody should be building private cloud because in virtually every case you know with very very few exceptions any of the large public cloud suppliers are gonna be able to buy hardware, networking they're gonna be able to hire better people more efficiently they're gonna be able to do all of that more cheaply you know then you will be you know if you're doing that privately but the flip side of that you know is that you know all of the businesses that we speak would have infrastructure significant commitments and when we get questions from the press in terms of you know hey is private cloud a thing you know the answer to that from my perspective is look you know the public cloud as I said is reset expectations is there some reason you would not want your sort of private infrastructure to have many of those same features right to be more dynamically and more quickly provisioned you know to be more elastic more scalable and so on and the answer of course is that yes you want that so what we see you know basically the biggest change like I said you know from an application development standpoint at least in our experience is that it's dramatically cut down you know the speed of provisioning you know we talked to in some cases this is absolutely true in the public cloud it's certainly true in some cases in limited cases in the private cloud is that the average lifespan for some of the instances that are spun up is measured in minutes you know and that's something that five or ten years ago you would never see that right you know if you spin up instances they're gonna be around for forever and ever and ever it's the classics for cattle versus you know pets analogy you know that people use you know with respect to servers so yeah speed speeds the big one for us so I totally agree with you about you know going to more turnkey ways of deploying cloud what's interesting is in the research that we've done recently we ask end users you know what they think of and we'll use this sort of as a benchmark converge and hyperconverge which are basically a way of consolidating compute storage and networking into a more consumable platform and 56% and 70% respectively said yep we're totally going in that direction and then the very next question was okay looking out five years on the horizon how do you anticipate provisioning the bulk of your virtualized infrastructures and it's the old-fashioned way we're gonna do it ourselves and it's like oh wait a minute and where did I miss here so there still is a disconnect and I think Jonathan talked about it a bit on the keynote when he talked about culture change so we can talk about technology until we're blue in the face and it's all good stuff but until people have made that mind shift of hey are old ways of doing things namely that where our value to the organization was building out piecemeal infrastructure and understanding the stuff in the minutia and again the difference being unless you're in that business is that you need to move away from that and into more of a strategic role so I think it's important to emphasize the educational aspect of it it's good that I think they announced today that they have an open stack certification program so I mean those types of things I think help because it shows a pathway for guys and gals who have been in IT a long time and maybe they've built their careers and their certifications around doing the infrastructure integration and there's clearly concern and a fear factor there what happens to them if this stuff just becomes too easy so I think it's important to point out that you need that culture sort of mindset and it's gotta come from top down within an organization or it's gonna be evangelized bottom up and meet in the middle. While we're there why don't we I'd like to actually go to the audience next but why don't we have each of you talk a little bit about well on the resistance side what are you hearing we hear about complexity we hear about skills shortages they talked about that this morning during the keynote we always hear about security issues which is such a big problem especially around things like IOT and stuff like that so why don't we start with Roz and come back this way and talk about what are some of the things that you're seeing as inhibitors and then we'll move to the audience. Okay great just like everything else yeah sorry is a skill set for sure but I think when we're talking about Telco what you hear quite a bit is that OpenStack is not carrier grade and people tend to use that kind of like cloud can mean anything you want it to be carrier grade they'll just say it's not carrier grade it's not ready for prime time. When you see people like AT Team Verizon saying this is the foundation of our cloud I kind of put some holes in that that's not to say there's still not things that can be done to harden it and make it more manageable and kind of live migration all that kind of stuff but I think that's probably the biggest one and it's again it's a mindset. Telcos are used to five nines hardened nebs compliant all that kind of stuff and now we're talking about something open source and it can't possibly be robust enough for our environments because we're Telcos so I think so there's certainly from a product standpoint there are certainly some issues that need to be taken care of but I think again it's changing people's mindset to get them to trust that there are other ways to get this thing done. When we are talking to enterprises we got actually two things back. One thing is it's not enterprise ready and it's not innovative. Enterprise ready means if you I mean if you if you take a look what sorry what AWS doing is for example with cloud trail it's a real it's a compliance service where you can see what your users are doing so with what kind when did they when did a user is starting an application and a virtual machine at which time and what is he doing with that you cannot do this with open seg right or the other thing is they asking for platform services what also Paul already mentioned for digital for the digital age to create new applications so and our advice is actually to the community or to the open seg foundation work together more closely with cloud foundry for example to create a very good ecosystem and this is what we are for example seeing with IBM right now IBM has soft layer and they have blue mix and they are now really integrate integrating it so that you're able to control soft layer from the blue mix platform to start virtual machines to control the storage and also the network and I think this is the way where also the open seg foundation the community has to go in order to be a big ecosystem and not just the infrastructure layer I think in terms of inhibitors the big one has to be as Ros and Renee both said skills certainly it's a perception that there aren't enough skills out there and in some cases that's perhaps true although that said most of the successful open seg deployment still tend to be done in partnership with organizations that have those skills so you're solving the problem one way or another the other big issue I think we're seeing is open stack as an agglomeration of projects some of them are good and robust and well used others are less robust, less well used and perhaps less obviously part of the core so I think talking to enterprise customers particularly they're looking to be able to point at something and say that thing is robust, secure, trustworthy, scalable, being maintained by a group of organizations that really care about it and they're in it for the long haul because I'm not investing in it for six months if I go open stack I'm investing in it for years and that really matters having said all that sort of negative scary bad stuff open source and open stack is part of that is a key part of most enterprises strategy moving forward we were Lauren Nelson who's speaking in half an hour or so in this room she and I were looking at some survey data and used it in a report recently which said 42% of senior software decision makers see open source as very important strategically important for them moving forward this year in terms of increasing their use of and reliance upon open source and open stack is one part of that that comes up again and again and again so they're looking at it very seriously they want to be able to rely upon it and trust it but there are certain challenges that need to be addressed and addressed quickly yeah I'll be a little bit contrary in my response so we actually see a fair amount of demand out there for it so we asked the question what is the platform that you're basing your private cloud on and 85% said the obvious the VMware is the Microsoft but of that same group 80% said they were kicking the open stack tires so they were using it either in a limited capacity 52% of that 80% said they're using it in a limited capacity and 28% said they're testing it so it clearly demonstrates that there's a lot of interest there and I think you made a great point and that means when I look at it you look at all the projects it's like how does this stuff all work? Right you know and so clearly that's I'm sure a concern for many organizations at the same time I think again if they see some clear cut examples now there are plenty again large enterprise and sometimes that's also can be an excuse to say well you know I'm not an Ericsson or I'm not an SAP or I'm not a BMW right but so I think you know what the community can sort of convey and talk about how this does scale down as well scale out everybody loves to talk about scale out which is important but talking about how it can be right sized for the mid-market and for the small enterprise customer. Yeah I think from my end you know I've been asked some variant of that question you know sort of on panels like this that I don't know probably the past four or five different events at least in North America and I think my answer historically has been something to the effect of you know OpenStack needs to have some sense of what it actually is right because you know we tend to think you know we tend to all talk about OpenStack as if it's a sort of a single project monolithic project when in fact it's not right it's a collection of different projects with different capabilities at different points in life cycle and in many cases they have different approaches and that's sort of been the default answer these days I think you know really the biggest inhibitor that I see at least from an OpenStack standpoint actually isn't OpenStack specific right it's essentially the market context because basically when we talk to developers or enterprises or governments or whoever it is today the contrast versus 10 or 15 years ago is enormous right 10 or 15 years ago the hardest decisions you had to make were which relational database am I gonna use which application server maybe which operating system but in other words you had a very very constrained approach you know it was essentially gonna be client server is gonna be MVC you know you had a essentially homogenous you know type of architecture that most everybody agreed on then you picked individual parts these days you know things are all over the map I mean consider the decisions facing organizations today right I mean we've already talked about a number of them public versus private okay which which way do I go and why you know why would I use one versus the other do I use one all the way across the board do I employ them both if I employ them both how do I manage that over time if I go private you know which sort of you know technology am I gonna use and then you know even if you know I decide on OpenStack okay great I have OpenStack I have infrastructure what sits on top of that you know what is the role of containers what is the role of VMs you know what platform we're gonna stick on top of that so the biggest issue again for me isn't necessarily something that's specific to OpenStack you know it's rather you know when you when you talk to customers they're faced with so many decisions at literally every layer of the stack today that it's an enormous issue I mean it's really really difficult to navigate even if you're in the business of attracting these things as we are you know we'll have customers regularly come up to us and like hey what about this project it's like I haven't actually heard of that that's interesting you know and that should never happen but that's how quickly things are arriving and that's the kind of environment that customers are required to cope with today just very briefly Com you said you know the importance of demonstrating that OpenStack can write size and down to the mid-market you're absolutely right absolutely fundamentally important it's just you know for the past however many summits we've been pushing the foundation saying you've got to give us big customer stories you've got to show us that the SAPs and the Ericsons and the VWs and the like are using this stuff so that people can trust it and we nagged and nagged and nagged they've finally given us that and now we're saying thanks but we need to see the small ones so yes you're right but you know Jonathan and gang at the foundation who we've been nagging for years to show us the big ones you know you've done that now we need the little ones and now it's a little yeah for Barcelona please let's go to the audience now I want to make sure we have enough time for a couple of questions anybody yeah Scott asked you with Dell services so I think Steve was right along the line of what I was interested in hearing more about which is Boris talked about it today at Mirantis in the keynote speech which is fundamentally a change in the problems and challenges that companies face with cloud whether it's OpenStack or not which is clouds a little cloudy explain cloud how do I implement it it's not the technical issues it's the business transformation it's bringing lean IT methodologies to the table and turning their IT department into a cloud revenue business I guess my question is twofold one word is there consensus with you folks with what Boris presented in the data from Gardner saying that most cloud infrastructure opportunities that we see Dell or whatever they don't fail because of the technology they fail because of the operational change fails that doesn't they don't the company can't grasp the operate operational changes that need to need to happen and then two you know can OpenStack or a cloud solution essentially innovate to face and fix those challenges making basically a turnkey what I find at Dell and other companies is that we a don't take advantage of that opportunity and be it's different it's difficult to sort of sell that as a solution or a core product you know you can't make that turn it into a skew I guess is the question and that those are my two questions that's understanding what those consensus around thanks I'll take a quick stab at that so you know I think to the first part of the question you know I don't think there's any question that you know essentially that the cultural change that companies implementation is an enormous challenge right you know because in other words if you go back through the history of this industry I've been doing this well I've been doing this job for a long time as the system's integrated before that you can pick really any category you know take customer relationship management software as an example right you know in theory you know we had package software and you know we had you know really quality implementation from lots of different providers and yet half of them failed you know roughly you know and that was true to you know no matter who you talk to so why is that well it turns out that you know it's not just a matter of you know hey here's some bits and here's some software and sort of go to town you know there's a lot more to it you know so I don't think OpenStack is any exception in that regard and I would I would say the same of really you know that the same is true of VMware's offerings the same is true of Microsoft offerings I frankly the same is true in many cases of Amazon's offerings you know depending on sort of how extensive you're using the software so the cultural change that goes along with it is an enormous problem it's an enormous obstacle and again that's to me at least true across the board in terms of you know how you can sort of help address that you know honestly I think that the most success that we've seen historically you know has been through providers that have been what sort of well we at least at Red Monk and it's a sort of relatively common term in the industry essentially just to describe as opinionated packages all right so in other words you know I talked a minute ago about all these choices that the customers have to make well one of the ways that you get around that is by saying all right look we're going to make choices for you now if you want to go you know crawl through the individual projects and pick out the individual pieces yourselves and you know wire them all together then knock yourself out you have the ability to do that but you know we've already done a lot of this research we're going to try to make it you know we're going to try to make logical choices that work together pre-integrated now does that solve all the cultural components no those are still there but to the extent that you can make smart choices from a packaging standpoint you can at least reduce some of the friction from a technology perspective you know which is huge you know in terms of adoption yeah I was just going to add to that yeah when I saw the the merentous thing this morning I was thinking that that's it rang very true to me because it's never the technology you can always get the technology to work it's all the other stuff around it that that's really important in a previous life I covered telecom software BSS OSS things like that and talk about CRM and I spoke with some CIOs about some of their transformation efforts and it was you know to a person it was always the technology was fine it was the people that was hard the other thing I wanted to mention was you know you were talking about you know how can you make this easy part of the research that we've been doing with the telcos is also understanding how are they engaging with these open source projects many of them are contributing code many of them are sending their folks to things like this but we also asked them you know do you plan to just download the freely available version or are you going to use a vendor supported distribution and again well over half I can't remember exactly what the number was but you know historically they have relied very heavily on their equipment suppliers to provide professional services and integration and other kinds of support training and things like that and I see no indication why that's going to be any different this time around in fact it might even be more so because like you said they're going to kind of outsource the intellectual you know the understanding of all these these projects for them to be able to get there fast so I think that's I expect to see that you know kind of how they're going to be consuming this it's going to be using not necessarily a SKU but you're going to get the software along with the supporting services. I think we have time for one more audience question we're just about out of time so if you would yeah there you go. We really can't see anything. Yes I am here it is real so anyway. Always out of the ether. My name is Nad and I'm from Red Hat. I'm interested in the panel's observations on the relationship between open source and open stack from the customer's perspective so you know the relationship between the affinity for open source or maybe concern about open source versus the adoption of open stack so you know if companies are embracing open stack is it because they have an underlying you know they embrace open source already or is it more for the solution so you know I'm very interested in then going back to the point about the culture and mindset so if there is an open source mindset already prevalent does that influence the adoption of open stack or you know the other way as well? I think there's some motivation from folks that you know want to avoid vendor lock-in and that oftentimes serves as a motivation for looking at things like open stack but they're also looking for something that's hardened and that can be provided you know that has more of a trusted sort of solution. I had another thought and I forgot what I was going to say. Yeah so the quick answer from my end would be you know is there an affinity you know for open stack adoption amongst sort of open source advocates and I would say absolutely the answer is yes. Now the caveat there is that you know I actually just had a conversation in a meeting before I came to this panel and one of the things we discussed is the degree to which enterprises will act or behave contrary to their stated interests right so for example you'll talk to enterprises and enterprises will say hey you know we got locked into Windows I didn't like it so I'm never gonna get locked in again I'm never gonna get locked into this proprietary provider you're like okay well who's your virtualization provider like VMware and you're like okay but that's a proprietary provider like okay right right got it all right so I got locked into Windows and I got locked into VMware but it's not gonna happen again you're like okay well who you you know what services using an Amazon they're like kinesis and redshift and you know all those other proprietary services and you're like wait but you just told me that you got locked in and then you got locked in and you weren't gonna do that again and now you got locked in a third time so yes on the surface is there an affinity you know is there an important link there absolutely but never underestimate the enterprise willingness and in fact you know sort of a desire in many cases to just go with what's convenient you know and put all other considerations to the side what we found out is that people that enterprises who are using open stack or interested in open stack are not doing it because of avoiding a vendor lock-in I think it was 3% who answered to this and this for a good reason because when you're using open stack you also have the open stack lock-in right you can of course you can switch your infrastructure and your your VMs which were the applications are running on top of but you can only actually switch to an open stack infrastructure when you're also using the scalability features high availability features and so and frankly speaking enterprises are familiar with where the lock-in they are they are familiar with with SAP lock-in we ember lock-in they know that there is somehow a technology lock-in every time but you decide you are deciding for this and it's it's good because technologies or that a lock-in is somehow good for innovation I mean how many people are using an iPhone here I'm sorry I cannot see it can you count for me please so again how many I counted ten not so many yeah okay so more Android but anyway I mean people who are using an iPhone they are loving it and they have these really huge iPhone Apple lock-in so I mean this is actually this proof my proofs actually my point yeah so that a lock-in is not that that it's not a big deal because you're deciding for this yes okay thanks so with that we are out of time but thank you all for joining us I hope this was useful and I'd like to thank our panel