 And we're back with the Breakfast and Plus TV Africa Self-Office Major Conversation. Our guest is already on standby. But let's quickly inform you, I'll remind you, that operatives of Tantita Security Services Nigeria Limited, operated by government Ekbemuk Pulo, probably called General Tom Pulo, have continued to uncover illegal crude oil stealing pipelines in Delta State, South-South Nigeria. So as I said earlier, they have continued to uncover illegal crude oil stealing pipelines in Delta State, some of which have raised questions about the role of security agencies in the stealing. One of such discoveries was an illegal underwater pipeline and platform connected to a 48-inch trans-focados export trunk line in Delta State, from which bunkers, together with government and security accomplices, directly siphoned clean the crude oil into ships and exported overseas. Now the on-air thing of the criminal pipeline and platform attached to the trunk line, operated by Shell Petroleum Development Company, SPDC, is a major breakthrough in the renewed bid by the federal government, the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation, Limited and the Ministry of Defense and other stakeholders to stop oil theft in the country. Now this was some time ago, last week, there have been more revelations recently as well. Recently tantita security services, as we said, led by former military leader, government Ekbemuk Pulo, probably known as Tom Pulo, also apprehended a crude oil vessel used for crude oil theft in Niger Delta creeks. The vessel was, however, set ablaze without proper investigation by officers of the Nigerian Navy. Reacting to this, legal luminary Fermi Falano essay in his human rights law in Nigeria called for the immediate sack or resignation of General Lucky Irabbo, who is the chief of defense staff, over the destruction of that illegal oil bunkering vessel. Speaking after the National Security Council meeting in Abuja last Friday, Irabbo had defended the destruction of the vessel. He added that it was caught in the act and that the instrument of operation was set ablaze as there was no need for an investigation. However, citing section 111 of the Armed Forces Act, Falano said, the justification of the chief of defense staff was a criminal conduct and it is a trite law that only the federal high court is empowered to order the interim or final for feature of any vessel that was used for conveying stolen crude oil. Joining us to discuss this, I'm glad to say we have an oil and gas analyst, Zaki Bala. He's online from Lagos State. Mr. Bala, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. All right. Let's start from the discoveries ongoing right now, the scale of which has been huge and unprecedented in the history of Nigeria and some will say even in the history of the world as far as the crude oil business is concerned. What are your thoughts on these discoveries? We can see what happened. We can talk about the trans-Folkato pipeline and the trans-Eskra was pipeline. The most recent one was the discovery of a nine inch pipeline attached to a major pipeline operated by an IOC, which was very close to a security post and it did nothing about it. Your thoughts on these discoveries? Uh-huh. Personally, as somebody who is a practitioner in the oil and gas industry, these have been made. It's only the locations where these major pipelines have been tapped, you know, for this series, has nothing new about crude oil tests as far as I'm concerned because for a long time we knew that Nigeria at some point, especially in the oil and gas industry, was experiencing this climate hostility and among the major hostility, you know, was crude oil tests and it was the same crude oil test that made many of the oil and gas companies start running away from Nigeria. I know that I'm digressing, but I want to explain something here. When many of these oil companies were trying to run away from Nigeria, instead of the government to come out, we tell Nigeria that these companies are not diversified technically. They are actually running away because they are suffering from hostility. One of the major ones who was crude oil test, if they had done that, that would have probably awakened Nigeria, especially around the agglies of the Niger Delta, they've been, to make sure we collectively come in national interest to hold the situation where they will be able to do their diversification and going to US. Nigeria has been lost and didn't bother, but now it's been. What is happening is, the way the government said that they were losing, Nigeria was losing about 400,000 barrels of crude oil per day. A lot of people will not understand what the government was saying, because the people would think the government was just talking about some buckets of crude oil test. But if you do the necessary conversions, because the unit of crude oil is barren, and you have 42 gallons to the barrel, and in one barrel you have 42 gallons, then in a gallon you have four liters. When you do the conversion, we are talking about 60-something million liters of crude oil per day, and that is equivalent to 2,000 tankers, 33,000 liter tankers, 2,000 of those tankers being stolen per day. From that angle, you will know that that was not tested by the ordinary police, OTC. It was very clear that it was a well crafted, a well coordinated, and a well coordinated criminal. And it is now clear that most activities were carried out through well crafted, and well well done, and well do, to the major trunk line, apart from the ones that are connected to other smaller parts. So it is now clear that it is not the limited usage within the Niger Delta, Oval Delta, OTC areas that were the criminals, but it is possible that the well crafted pre-unality is a clear invitation and collaboration of the people within the communities where these pipelines are passing through, security agents, staff within the oil and gas companies, and probably the refugees, and other collaborators. So from that angle, you know, people like me who are practitioners, I was not surprised because oil companies have always been using in terms of production. You will measure the fuel, oil, and gas, and water, and gas at the well head, and at the separator. At the point of putting them to the oil terminal, the exact conditions that you want to see do not appear. That simply means they are being done along the trunk line, or along the delivery pipeline, and it is now clear that this and well-coordinated pre-unality was responsible for all these shortages and theft and vandalism. Do you think that approaching the court would also be a solution? We've also seen people who are saying, for instance, the likes of Faleno, who's been very vocal with this particular issue, has been, you know, some people saying this is ranting, Nigerians are ranting with the situation, especially with the fact that the vessel was burnt. Do you think that approaching the court will, you know, yield any positive result? Your question is not very clear, but I don't know if you're talking about vessels. I'm talking about the vessels that was burnt. What? In the course of this old theft. The vessel that was burnt. So my concern is, do you think that approaching the court, whoever approaches the court, would yield any kind of result, especially you have said that old theft is not a new issue, but we have a current situation where vessel that was apprehended was burnt. So my question is, do you think that approaching the court will yield any result whatsoever? One can say it's a new issue. You know, I mean, because technically, even if somebody commits a murder, you know, a murder case, a murderer will still be giving some fair hearing in the court. So generally, when activities like this happen, or activities of spirituality, because Nigeria is supposed to be a democratic country, we expect that things will be done in a civil manner or civil order. So whichever way this happens, it will always be good that we don't consult what many Nigerians technically are, jungle justice. And jungle justice doesn't mean we just, I mean, express your anger or aggression on human being, or passion. It's always good to allow the due process of, you know, safe effect. All right. Mr. Bala, do you agree with those who are fingering the chief of defense staff in all of this, General Lucky Rabbo, in saying that he should resign or he should be fine? Because of what has transpired so far, like we said, the destruction of that oil vessel, which Fermi Falano said is evidence that should have been preserved for the prosecution of whoever is responsible for this. For that singular act of burning the vessel, do you think that is enough to demand for the removal of the chief of defense staff who justified that? Personally, an oil and gas practitioner, that shouldn't happen. If the chief of defense staff acted maybe out of pain and he probably somehow, somewhere expresses his pain by authorizing the outright burning of that vessel, that is not enough, you know, to say this should be done. The way you take it to the court, I mean, interpretations are different. I want to draw a kind of relationship both ororally with what was happening with Shekau and Boko Haram. I mean, there was a time when Boko Haram and Shekau were really, I mean, killing Nigerians, causing destruction. At some point, some of the comments that were sent to the war front became so aggressive that if they come across some of Boko Haram and they kill them outright, we remember that the international community was human rights started coming up and saying, no, no, no. I mean, they wouldn't want to that way. There should be judicial process. But personally, I didn't feel bad. I didn't feel the action of those commanders were bad. It was because of what Nigeria was experiencing. So if you look at it from that angle, I mean, Nigeria's name is terribly bad if there is a place like that. But the international, I mean, suggestions stop coming. Infections have run away. And if you look at it, before even the culture was given to Boko, I mean, it was assumed that the security agents were not working. So and the chief of defense of this country is, as I thought to say, is generally not irreversible. All those statements and those two were indictment on the offer and other military statements. So I mean, before that, we got so angry, came and authorized the outright burning of that vessel to, honestly, be mirrored from a positive reason. But I mean, Falano has raised some important points. And he says that Lucky Rabbo's response when he was asked about this issue at the end of that Security Council meeting, he described it as a deliberate attempt to cover up the involvement of military personnel in the serious crime of oil theft in the Niger Delta, as there is no provision in the rules of engagement that authorizes a military personnel or security operatives to set fire to or destroy vessels loaded with stolen crude. In fact, he says that the chief of defense staff is not unaware that under the service laws of the country, the burning of a ship of vessel by military personnel is a serious offense which attracts life imprisonment without an option of fine. So he says this is a deliberate attempt to cover up the involvement of the military in crude oil theft in the country. Destroy the evidence. Nigeria has a lot of educated people. You guys are energy journalists. Even if we were not to have local energy journalists, you guys can investigate and know the things, whether there was a cover-up or not. So I'm not really bothered on whether there was a cover-up or not. The investigation is carried out, not even by lawyers or even the energy journalists who have done the investigation and come out with the truth. But please, we should lose focus of what we want to achieve, what we intend to achieve to make sure we stop our criminality, especially this well-created criminality that has made oil companies to be using so much in terms of their investments that has caused Nigeria to have a bad image of international business and that has made investors to see Nigeria as a very bad situation. Quickly, Adam. Oil has gone into the world today. So we already know that the federal government says that with the destruction of the vessel, there's no need for investigation. I'd like you to share your thoughts as an Nigerian, as an individual in this case now. Do you think there's no need for investigation? And those who have actually asked that anyone that feels very aggrieved with this should approach the court. Others are saying evidence has been destroyed. What really is your thoughts on this? Government is government as far as I'm concerned. I mean, the fact that government says there must be no investigation does not mean that an informal investigation will not succeed. It does not mean that energy journalists will just suspend everything and assume that it should be business as usual. Energy journalists like you will always dig to the bottom of what happened. Official statements by governments are different. You are positioned as energy journalists and other interested Nigerians and the international community and other people that are interested in the activities of the Nigerian oil and gas in the food chain carriers regardless of what government sees. At the end of the day, we just want to ensure that things are stabilized but it's ramped up back so that Nigeria will be able to reach a successful production. Nigeria will be able to reach up with our internet production and make sure we generate so much. Can you talk about, I mean, the fact that some of these pipelines that have been laid, these incisions to the major pipelines like the trans-Focardos pipeline, trans-Escarvos pipeline, some of them are as little as nine inches in diameter. But they are not hidden. You know, you see a case where a pipeline stretches four kilometers and goes directly to a platform owned by an oil company where a gigantic vessel comes into the waters of Nigeria and then loads crude oil that is stolen and takes it out. Now, I asked myself what about the complicity of armed forces in all of this because we have them patrolling the nooks and crannies of the Niger Delta. Also, on the high seas and high waters of the country. So I want you to speak about the culpability and the cooperation of our military forces with this theft that is going on because I don't know, Mr. Zakabala, if an aeroplane can come into the Nigerian airspace, land people in this country, take them away without the Nigerian airspace agency or authority knowing about it. You know, without the aviation regulatory agencies knowing about it, at least the airspace authority, it should be somewhere on the radar. Now, can a ship a crude oil vessel, a tanker get into Nigerian waters and spend hours loading the product and leave without being seen by the security agencies? Is it possible? No. And that was why we said it was well crafted a well-sindicated and a well-coordinated criminality. You know, Joe, he said in heaven that small things, big things. But in the context of crude oil theft in Nigeria, we can separate it into small thefts and major or bigger thefts. What we are seeing is a big theft or bigger theft because let us not forget there was a time and everybody was blaming criminals within the Niger Delta especially those who are involved in activities that had to be illegally, finally. We were thinking there were those who were responsible for all the loophies apart from the environmental degradation. What they are doing is criminality I don't support it but it is not very clear that you explain when you have major problems like that with other types of stealing carefully and intelligently and technically well-deserved and those wealth are technically ways that can only be carried out by experts. The only way that can happen is way-claring cooperation. Those stakeholders are involved in the criminality so the best way I can describe them is if some of them are Nigerians then they are lawyer-disloyal but also they can be described as economic vampires economic marudas and economic theft because there is no way anybody can get to such point and be able to carry out activities. Before we go Mr. Bala who should pay the price who should be held responsible if we see that soldiers are manning a security post just a few inches a few meters from a pipeline theft point like we saw two days ago in Delta state they have a post there they have guns they are wearing they have a phone Federal Republic of Nigeria and there is a theft point pipeline in session stealing oil from the major pipeline just in front of them who should pay the price who should be held responsible since you are saying the chief of defense staff should not be held responsible then who should be held responsible is the chief of army staff chief of navy staff maybe deputy chief of military without without among the military corporate they will be not told just because they are controlled by this pressure drop lies at a lot of defense if somebody is held responsible you said it all that they need to investigate some more but how can you investigate when the evidence has been destroyed, but you've said it all, you've said all that more investigations need to be conducted and you said Irabo should not be sucked. Yes. Zakabala, thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time. We have to go. All in gas, only Zakabala joins us, join us from somewhere in Lagos state. We'll be talking about the political space as INEC has worn political supporters and parties against hate speech and violent activities or acts. We'll be right back after this break. Please stay with us.