 So we'll call meeting to order at 601 and welcome Maya. Thanks for joining us and becoming our note minute taker. Really gonna be helpful. It's really challenging to be the person that's trying to participate in a meeting and take notes. So this gives us all the opportunity to be focused on the content and while you're doing the minute. So thank you. And at the risk of sounding like I'm telling you how to do your job. I'm gonna tell you how to do your job. We just wanna make sure that each topic we cover that there's some record of that. What the topic was briefly described the discussion. This isn't a transcript, which I know you know that but this isn't a transcript of our meeting. But then if there is a decision that's made that that is recorded. And also it's helpful to have a rationale for us when we go back and look at our notes and say why did we decide that? Some rationale briefly. And then if we assign or have action items that we record those as well on a topic. So I'm sure you're experienced at this and we'll learn as we go along and see what we get. Now this is what we're hoping to get more efficient at getting our notes out to the community members to the public in the five days it's required under the Vermont Open Meeting Law. So it's gonna be great to have you do this. Sandy is gonna do a quick review after you do the minutes and then she'll get them to the town clerk for uploading on the website within five days of our meeting. So we'll meet that obligation, that requirement from Vermont Open Meeting Law. So I'm looking forward to this and cleaning this up. And also I wanna thank Julie and Christine and Sandy for the effort and trying to get our notes in the past. It's not easy without everyone's busy schedule. So thank you all for that. Also at each meeting I wanna just welcome the community members and also introduce ourselves to the community members. They don't always know who we are when we're sitting up there around the table. So just quickly go around the table and tell folks our names. So I'm Dan McKinley, I'm the chair of the Planning and Zoning Commission. I'm Sandy Haas, Julie Martin. Dave Curtis, I'm Dune Hendricks. I'm Sarah Raid, I'm a senior planner with Two Rivers Out of Creature Regional Commission. Great. Thank you all. I'd like to make a habit of that so folks that don't know us all at least can put a name to our faces. Well, I remind everyone that our meetings are recorded because we do them in a hybrid fashion both Zoom and in-person. So we are recording our Zoom meeting but I also see that Orca is with us tonight and they also will be recording our meeting. So we're getting double duty. Also in these hybrid meetings so that everyone gets an opportunity and a fair chance to speak. Let's make sure we raise our hands when we wanna be recognized to speak. And if you're in Zoom world, use the reactions button at the bottom of your screen. A little button that says reactions. Click on that and there are a number of things you can do a cry reaction if you like or raise your hand reaction, okay? This is what everyone knows and we'll call on folks as we see those hands raised. And it's difficult for me in Zoom world to see everyone on the owl. So right now I can't see David and Julie or Dune. So you guys help me out. So if we talk, then the owl highlights us, is that correct? I think that's how it's going to look like. Yes, great, great. So it highlights, so you have to talk before your hand is raised, but that's all right. So we'll make do and we'll be courteous with each other do the best we can. Let's see, also we'll see, I'm gonna go through the agenda right here right now and talk a little bit about another topic. So we had a call to order. First part of the agenda is permit inquiries. If there are any folks that come with specific questions about permits, we'll hear them first. Then we'll approve our minutes each month. This month we are doing August, September, October and November. We also have again, postpone the Barbara Hart minor subdivision application. After that we'll have the administrative officer report, building and zoning applications and discussions of our bylaw update with Sarah is here to help us with. And then we'll have public comment. And you'll see in the agenda that we have limited public comment to three minutes. And that is an effort to just give everyone a fair chance to speak and to not sort of monopolize anyone's time and to respect each one of our time, those that are volunteering on the board as well as those who attend the meeting community members. So you'll have three minutes to speak. You can say a lot in three minutes if there is a back and forth discussion of an item and you can speak for three minutes a second time if you'd like. And that'll just keep us moving along. We've got a full agenda and get us home at a reasonable hour. And then we will adjourn. So without further ado, are there any permit inquiries in the room? We're probably not. We have no guests in the room again. Okay, right. No one's asking for a permit. So we'll move on, friends. I'm hearing a little bell in mind. Does that mean someone's in there? That's June's phone and he just left the room. Gotcha. Okay. Oh, that's the other thing I wanted to mention is that the other thing I wanted to mention is if we do on occasion use our cell phones in the planning commission meetings and that is primarily always just to do research to answer questions. Sometimes we look up statutes. Sometimes we look up at a spell of word but that is how we use our cell phones and we would refrain from doing any sort of texting back and forth about the topics of the meeting. So without further ado, we will move to approval of the minutes. Let's start with August. I move approval as circulated last week. I second it. All in favor. Aye. Aye. Okay. I have it. August is approved. September minutes. I move approval as circulated last week. I second it. All in favor. Aye. Aye. That was unanimous. I think I heard you there, David, didn't I? Yes. All right, moving on to October minutes. I move approval as circulated last week. I second it. All right, all in favor. Aye. Aye. Okay, unanimous. And lastly our November last month's minutes. I move approval as circulated last month. I second it. All in favor. Aye. Aye. Aye. Excellent, we're caught up and we will endeavor to get our December minutes up on our website within five days and probably before that if things go smoothly. Thank you. So Barbara DeHart is not here for her minor subdivision. We postponed that. So we'll move to administrative officer report. Any building zoning applications on the board? I have two. I have one from Robert Steventon at 533 Mount Cushman Road in Rochester. And he is looking for a permit new construction for an outbuilding, a storage shed that would be behind his house. And so it doesn't require any new driveway cuts or septic and it meets the setbacks. So I approve that one. Are you doing the week again? Yep. That's 533 Mount Cushman. In Dan, yeah. Yeah, I just want to check in with Maya on what she's going to record for those because those are recorded in the notes. Basically just the applicant name, the address, what they're applying for and if it was approved. Great, thanks Maya. All that, you got it. Okay, cool. Excellent. And then the second one which would be pending but it looks like it would be approvable with the septic connection. This is from, I guess it's Dave and Patty from Hop North. The owner is Marvin Harvey and this is at the property address. I don't think it has a number. It's on School Street. It's the little red barn that's behind the hardware store that used to be Rhoda's antique store and Dave and Patty are looking at a change of use, change it from storage slash retail to they want to put an apartment in there. So currently that building does not have any water connections. So I've talked with Terry Severy and he's going to inquire with DuBois and King about the feasibility of adding another service to that septic site. So that is, it's tentatively approved but pending the approval of the septic connection. And water. And water, right, septic and water. And that's all I've got for tonight. So that's basically on hold. Yeah, but I did talk with Terry and Severy, he's going to get on there because part of this application is also an application for the municipal water and sewer permit, which would be something that he signs off. Well, it's for Marvin Harvey, but... Dave and Patty made that application but Marvin owns the property. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Any other questions for Du? On that. Okay. Thanks, Du. All right. Next on the agenda is our continued effort at our updating, revising of our zoning regulations. We've been working on this for a few months now with Sarah and we had some homework to do on this. Sarah had highlighted in her notes the things that we were going to focus on tonight. So, Sarah, do you... How do you wanna... I guess whenever you think it's appropriate and have some content to share, you can share your screen. Thank you. Thank you. That'd be great. Could you make me a co-host please? I don't know what to make a co-host. Oh, I don't know how to do that. Oh, okay. I can touch it. But yeah, engage me. Absolutely. I'm just going to put it over here. You're making fun of the screen. I'm going to share it in my name. And I'm going to put it in the box. Yep. And you say, make a co-host. I'm going to say co-host. But this is when we thought of those homework to do. You want to change? All right. And that will give me the screen sharing ability. I'll try to keep an eye on dying. Normally, it's nice to get co-hosts so that you can share that. Responsibility is just a bit odd. Hello, everybody. Again, my name is Sarah Rae. For those who don't know me, I work as a senior planner with the Arizona P.G. Regional Commission. If you can't hear me, I do apologize for the mask. I need to take depressions for family. Just give me a shout or wave, and I'll try to talk more loudly. I'm going to share my screen in a moment here. But before we dive into the actual neat of the ordinance work that we've been discussing, I wanted to follow up on a conversation that we had at the last meeting in reference to questions about using legal trails as driveways for used by cars. Is that still an open question before the commission? Is that still something that you all are working on? Yeah, that's more of a question in front of the select board than the plan commission. But any input that you have would be great. Awesome. So I had an opportunity to sit down with almost all of our senior staff this week and chat about it. And I had some really helpful insights that I just wanted to pass along. So we all did a little bit of research, and it looks like the town is not legally obligated to allow a resident use of a town trail as a driveway if they have other frontage to that lot. And in the case that you shared with me, you shared with me a map of a particular lot, that lot has frontage on about 100. So you don't have a formal legal obligation to grant them use of that trail as a driveway. If there was no other frontage, then you might be in a different situation. But for this particular case, you don't have that legal obligation. From a legal standpoint, you should be allowed to grant use of a legal trail as a driveway. That said, it's not advisable. And then all of this in your staff will sort of end unanimous agreement on this frontage. But first of all, if you were going to go down that road, if you were going to start allowing people to use legal trails as driveways, you would really want to establish some clear rules and regulations and expectations in policy, in town policy, and by law language around that. But just from a sort of principal standpoint, it's not a good idea because as the years wear on, it's very likely that more people besides the owner are going to start using that legal trail for cars. And so you're going to probably see hunters moving up there, and you're going to see, for example, glampers using that particular trail as a driveway. And it's very possible once you get into the 20 years on range that they're going to have legal standing by dint of use, of longstanding use, to force the town to make that into a proper road. And so it just puts the town in a position that you might not necessarily want to put yourselves in. That might be too far. Maybe you want to go that road and if that's cool with you, then go ahead and set clear policies and expectations around who's paying for what and under what time frames and all that sort of stuff. So that's sort of our gloss here on that. And in terms of the actual block, the actual parcel that you had sent us the map of, just from two rivers perspective, we wanted to point out that we see that the topography on route 100, trying to get, use the frontage on route 100 is inhibited by the topography. Your bylaws language is broad enough. It says that you have to have frontage on a lot, but it doesn't say you have to use that particular frontage on a lot. So you can certainly develop that lot without actually using the route 100 frontage, at least as far as we're reading it, we're reading your bylaw. And what we're looking at in terms of like possible access to the lot, we can see that the Jerusalem Hill Road would be the most logical option to enter into that, to get access to that lot. And the sort of solution that we would recommend, if you wanted, if the new in the landowner wanted to go that route, would be to convert the portion of the legal trail that sort of leads between the end of Jerusalem Hill Road and the lot line into a class four road. If you make that conversion, you are not obligated to improve the road in any way, but it's just a sort of a process that you go with, with the trans, right? It's a discussion of the chance you make that happen. And that would give you frontage to the lot line. And then what we would recommend, our office would recommend would be to require the landowner to put in a driveway, which is separate from the legal trail to wherever they want to build on the lot. From the lot line. Yeah, from the lot line. It's also possible that the landowner could, if they wanted a different access point, we saw that there might be some potential access points from roads towards the Northeast. They could purchase a right away from an adjacent property owner from the property, or excuse me, from the road to their lot line and then build a road to give themselves frontage. But it does seem like a Jerusalem hill option and that conversion might be easiest route from point A to point B. So that's, yeah, I just wanted to share that information. I hope that's helpful. We had a nice chat about it last week. Should we dive into you? Thank you. Bye, Lostefka. Did that help though? Yeah. Good. They went the route they went because obviously the easiest way was the legal trail way, but I mean, it's not going to take a while. Okay, so let's dive into the bylaw then. I wanted to start off with river corridor regulations, which we've had some discussion about prior to this meeting. And so the question before the, mission right now is whether the town is interested in pursuing river corridor regulations. So what I've got here on the screen is a map of, it's available through to their website. You can go to programs, mapping and then it'll fill out river corridors. You'll be able to find this map and it basically just shows you the floodways, the floodplains and the river corridors, also the small streams that have been mapped for our region. My bearings here and I'll zoom into the town if that's helpful. And for those of you who are unfamiliar with the conversation that has happened so far, don't mind Mr. Lund, there we go. Oh, my fault. There we go, my apologies. Thank you for your patience as I- So all of the blue lines, I'm sure you got it. That's correct. So the river corridor is a, it's a shaded orange. So it's effectively this orange band, you can see there. Like those up to there, I believe. So this particular- So not the cross hatched section, but that narrow orange band. I believe so. I'm trying to get a view where I can show you some layers. I'm particularly interested in seeing the high school. Well, I see the high school, go back to the middle of it. There we go, okay. So I'm gonna keep this visible and I'm going to remove all of the others. Hello. So this is just showing you the river corridor. As you can see that that's the high school. I'm also supporting the high school repurposing project team and we've had some conversations about, you know, the question of whether regulating in the river quarters would impact the high school project. And honestly, you know, if they're not going to change the footprint of the building and it sounds like that's not in the cards for them, then it's really not going to impact. Your decision really isn't going to impact them because what the river corridor regulation does as you've seen from the materials that were sort of the standard language that's provided by the state is that it basically says you can't build any closer to the river than existing development, the buildings that are already there. So from the perspective of the high school repurposing project, I don't think that's going to be a concern. For those of you who are not familiar with the river corridor discussion, I just wanted to give a little bit of background. The reason, the sort of the carrot to the incentive that the state holds out to towns to sort of encourage them to go ahead and regulate river corridors is to say that, okay, in the event of a federally declared flood disaster, we will contribute a larger amount of money towards your recovery, towards your expenses than we would otherwise if you can show that you had a river corridor regulations on the books prior to the disaster. The river corridor is something that's mapped by the state. It's completely separate from the flood plains. Regulating river corridors does not impact your flood insurance rates for better or worse. It's just a completely separate animal. And so we've had some discussions already. I shared this map with you all by email a couple times now and I'd love to get your thoughts on whether you'd like to move forward with river corridor regulations. I will say, and I included this in my email that I sent out, I had a discussion with our flood plain expert in-house Peter Pete Fellows. And he said that, as you know, FEMA's gonna be redrawing flood maps, we expect the maps to be available 2025, 2026 somewhere in that area, federal government, it's hard to predict. Not sure why that went away, I'm sorry. It's still underneath there. Sure. It is possible that when those flood plain maps are redrawn, even though river corridors are completely different kettle fish. That's okay, I think y'all can still hear me through the, I hope so, lose through the owl. Dan, can you still hear me? Awesome, great. Even though river corridors are completely different kettle fish, it's very possible that the state will take that opportunity to make some revisions to the standard river corridor regulations that they expect towns to adopt. Pete said that there's been some discussions about possibly making those regulations a bit more nuanced, giving towns a little bit more flexibility to work within those. So if you feel like you're not totally confident about making the decision right now, if you wanna put this off, you might consider picking the question back up again in the 2025, 2026 timeframe and just see what shapes out of the state in terms of what they're thinking about, how to regulate river corridors. June, can you tell us, right, am I correct that FEMA pays 80% and that's a 20% that's the state and local share now and we're talking about the split of that 20%. I can't say for sure I've had to think deeper. So the way that that works is, and this is discussion that we've all received comments of in a previous meeting. This is just a standard handout that's available on the state's website. So what the state is proposing is that if you were to adopt a seven, if you were to adopt a recorder regulations, they would pay 17.5% of the cost share. That would be their cost share, 17.5%. Versus 15. Versus 12.5. 12.5% jumps. Yep. And the federal and local breakdown, I don't have the funding, but that is also available on the state's website. I personally had made a note that I wouldn't mind waiting for the real, but I mean, that's just my thought. So we wouldn't have to do it all over again. I mean, and let's see what they do come up with, but it's just me. I'm excited. The last meeting you, so these are the upsides is that we get a larger share, but you also shared some of the challenges of the hoops that needed to be jumped through to do that. Is that something that you think would be simplified by waiting till they redo the state? It's impossible to tell what they're gonna do. It's hard to tell. Yeah. I mean, the hoops that you would have to go through are the same hoops that you're going right now, going through right now with your bylaw provision, right? So you would effectively be adding a big chunk of text to your bylaw or creating separate, you could always create a separate ordinance and then you would go through the standard adoption process. Technically, like there are two roads to get to the 17.5% state cost share. One is adopting river corridor regulations, excuse me, and the other is joining the community rating system. We don't have any communities in our region who joined the CRS because those hoops are much higher and just it's more of an administrative headache, right? And so if towns wanna go that route, they've always gone the river corridor route because it's just easier. Having tried to read through all of your proposed changes today, I feel like we have quite a lot on our plate right now without adding a whole new category of stuff. Can I ask a question that I might have missed? How, I'm just wondering how this would affect, I'm so sorry, solar, like an alternative energy like building in the corridor. I know there are a lot of open planes that people might want to use for alternative energy solar panels. And I'm just wondering how this plays in and affects. Thanks for getting me into, you've already said this. And this is... That's a really great question. I'm just grabbing, and this I provided to the board earlier as well. But I believe that the same standards would apply to solar panels, solar installations as they would to any other development, which is that you would not be able to build any closer to the river channel than existing development already is. So you would have to fit your plans within that existing sort of footprint. Is that per plot? I mean, because if you can't say, oh, down the river, someone is this close to the river, so then I can build this close to the river. So that's a really good question. I'll be dealing with a contour line or something or somewhere, I think. So... Maya, do you have a question? We are Jason instructors. Maya, go ahead, you're muted, so you have to unmute. Sorry about that. I was wondering who just asked the question about the solar panels. Christine, I'm here now. Oh, okay. Hi, Christine. I scooted in. Hi. Thank you. So I believe that the distance is determined by your immediately adjacent structures. So it's sort of calculated. Yes. Yeah. Your section. I'm sorry, can you explain that? Yeah, so let's say that you've got, I don't know, maybe 100 feet between yourself and the bank in this little group of houses right here, but down the way, it's like only 50 feet to the bank. That doesn't actually matter to you because you're calculating under the regulations, you're calculating your allowable distance from the bank based on the structures that are immediately to your left and your right, if that makes any sense. Thank you. I'm also thinking like that this is a pretty significant addition to our zoning bylaws. And I think it would need a fair amount of attention and explaining to the community. And I was a little bit surprised at the number of properties structures as you scroll around through that map, especially in the headwater streams that are adjacent to. So there'll be a lot of properties that would be affected by this. And as Sandy said, we're gonna have a lot of changes that we're gonna be talking about. In other parts of the bylaws. So I'd be happy to go the route that Julie said is to defer until there are some upcoming changes that we will see. Do you want a formal motion, Mr. Chair? That we just table this? Yeah. Decide that we're not gonna include it in this round of amendments to the bylaw. Yeah, let's do that. So move. I second this. All in favor of deferring this till we have more information, maybe in 25 or 26. AI? AI. AI. Anyone opposed? Okay. Let the note show unanimous that we were, that we wanted to defer on the record regulations. All right, thank you, Sarah, on that topic. Thank you. Okay. So from at this point, I'd like to dive into some of the topics that we saw on the topics and discussions, questions for discussion document. And I'd like to start with district purposes, if I may. So what I'm gonna do here is I'm gonna share a Word document that is a, great, I apologize on having some technical difficulties here. I'm not sure why it's not giving me an option to do, I'm gonna try again. Let's share a screen. Yeah, if I accept it's not, yeah, okay. So this is gonna be a little hard to read. I apologize, we didn't have to make do with what we got here. Hope that's visible for folks on the Zoom land. So what I'm gonna do here is there's a section of the bylaw which introduces the various zoning districts and it talks about the standards that are applicable to each of those zoning districts. As I was going through and I was doing a general sort of health and wellness check on the bylaw, I noticed that you did not have explicitly stated purposes for each of those districts. And the reason why it's important to have those is because from a statutory perspective, whenever you do a conditional use review, you are technically referencing the stated purpose for that district. So we need to have that language in there somewhere in your bylaw to make that a valid conditional use review. So what I've done here is I've gone through your town plan and have looked for guiding language around what these districts are supposed to do and what they're supposed to accomplish, what they're supposed to be and feel like. And where I was lacking in language in the town plan, I tried to take some examples from other towns that have similar kinds of districts and I'm drafted up some language. So I wanted us to look through that together this evening and I'd like to get your feedback and make edits together on the fly as needed just so that we can get these nailed down. How does that sound to the committee? That's great. Okay, so for the business residential district, I'm just going to read this out loud for the benefit of the folks who are on Zoom who might not be able to see it clearly and I do apologize. The purpose of the business residential district is to encourage a broad mix of uses including civic, commercial, including primary retail, higher density residential, light industrial and professional services. It supports the highest density development in the town within the limits of existing utility and facility capacities and compatibility with surrounding context and historical development patterns. How does that sound? What edits are needed? I think he's on the one hand. He's on the other hand. Yes, agreed. Very well done. Good. Okay, great. We will move on. But let the minutes show that we have approved the purpose for the... We have a purpose. Business residential district. Okay. We're moving on to the commercial agricultural district. The purpose in this zone is to provide a location for future commercial development that would serve to complement existing businesses already well established in the village area. The location near this intersection of Route 173 with its proximity to the village center makes this area most favorable for expansion of business interests provided that these businesses do not negatively impact the health of the business residential districts. Businesses in this area may have a retail component but only if it is clearly secondary to the primary use of the building. Both residential and agricultural uses are also compatible with the purpose of this land use area. Again, very well written. Could you scroll up so we can see the whole thing? Absolutely. Here we go. I like it because it spells out that secondary retail secondary component to the use of the building. Does Maya have a question? Maya does. Can you tell me the name of that district one more time, agricultural? Commercial agricultural is the one that we're working on right now. Thank you very much. Thank you. I like the wording. I wonder, does it box us in too much to say the purpose of it is only for future commercial development? So maybe delete the word future. I would add the word present and future. It's a location for current and future commercial development. Or just no words. Just leave it for commercial development. It is nice, the future part. I like removing future. I think that's good idea. Yeah. That's good. OK, so we'll move on then to the next district, which is the agricultural residential district. The purpose here is the purpose of this zone is to accommodate less intensive land uses such as agriculture, homes, small, non-retail businesses and outdoor recreation. The district incorporates open space to contrast with the more densely developed business residential and commercial agricultural districts, thereby helping preserve the historic settlement pattern of the Compact Village Center surrounded by rural countryside. So you have the description crossed out. Is that just for the purpose of this? Because you still want to have those descriptions, right? Let's talk about that. That's a separate issue. Separate issue. Yeah, let's talk about that next. You represent these guys. The only thing I would add is residential homes at the beginning. I just think it would be, I think it sounds. Residential homes. OK. Might be redundant, but I think. What's a home that's not residential? Exactly. Any other edits? No, I like it. OK, let's keep going. This is the aquifer recharge district. So the purpose here is the purpose of this district is to protect the quality of the public water supply serving Rochester Village. These are the lands whose surface and groundwater serve to recharge the well that provides the village with its municipal water supply. Straightforward works for me. Other than having a cemetery and our water supply, I think we're good. OK. There's a little downhill action there, but. I'm going to move on to the. Oh, yeah, just just a curiosity. And is the. Well, it's on the hill of Brook Street. Part of that. That's the reservoir. Oh, that's a. Just we saw the water from the well up to the reservoir in this gravity fed through town. OK, I didn't know if they were that was getting water from elsewhere or not just from elsewhere. So yeah, let's move on here to the conservation residential district purpose. The purpose of this district is to preserve Rochester's rural character and working lands. These lands exhibit the least potential for supporting high density development since most of the land is characterized by steep slopes, shallow and fragile soils, help high elevations and remote locations. Muse is compatible with the purposes of this land use area include agriculture, forestry, recreation and properly cited residential development. Good. I'm a little concerned with saying most of the land is characterized as steep slopes, shallow soils, fragile soils. I don't know that it's most. There's a lot of. Good ag land up there with. Sufficient soil depths. So we change it to sense much of the land or includes land or some often characterized. Could we change it to since most of the land is characterized by. Prime agricultural soils, comma, steep slopes, shallow and fragile soils, high elevations and or remote locations. So it's kind of a. Any or all of the above. That works for me. Yeah. Because yeah, it's like all the holes. That's a lot of areas out there. It's all of this white. So now we have now we have agricultural soils and then we have fragile soils. Too many soils. Well, I don't know. I'm okay with that. It's sort of redundant, but but I will also wouldn't mind adding in large forest blocks in there as well as we're talking about working landscape. Great. Because we've been so. Sorry, worries today. We've been so. Descriptive. Do we need the and or remote? Okay. Descriptive. Do we need the and or remote locations now? Could it just be and remote locations? It's characterized by all of these things. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's fine. Did we want to have, oh, we have recreation. Okay. No recreating in this town. Okay. Sounds like we're good to move on from that. Okay. Thank you. Only other remaining district is the flood plain. The flood hazard district. The overlay. And that already has an extensive purpose statement in there. So I feel confident that that's good to go. Plus we had discussed at the last meeting that we're not going to open up the flood plain regulations as part of this revision process. Because again, theme is going to be doing a lot of changes in the next few months. And we're going to be doing a lot of changes in the next few months. And that's going to be a big push right now. So thank you. That is super helpful. The next thing that I was hoping we could talk about were news lists. And so. Just a sort of a recap of what we talked about last time. I have proposed, and this is a structure that we recommend to the towns that we work with on their bylaws. So I'm going to show you a little bit of what we're going to talk about. So the structure you're useless, such that you say that all uses that are not exempt, prohibited or permitted will be assumed to be conditional uses. So that gives you the flexibility that if you can't imagine a particular use right now, it will still be considered a conditional. Even if it's not specifically named in your bylaw right now. And that saves you from having to try to come up with every possible use category. So that's what we're going to be able to imagine right so. So I have a question on that. When we did this many years ago. The, our, our helper from your, from your office. Made it clear to us that conditional uses, we should think of conditional uses as permitted uses. This came up in the context of, of whether we were going to expand where we, where commercial activity can happen. And, and we said, Oh, we'll make conditional and we can decide and he said, no, once you, once you say it's conditional, you're basically saying, yes, you can do it. You know, subject to a few limitations. So it makes me a little nervous to say anything that we haven't thought of is, is permitted with conditions. So we could reframe that to anything you haven't thought of is prohibited. So, and some towns have gone that route, right? They said, okay, anything that's not exempt, permitted, or condition use is prohibited. That is a more draconian way to go, but you feel more comfortable with that. We can work with that. If you think of something we haven't thought of. I just wanted to throw that out. We think about these lists because as you pointed out, we can't think of everything. I feel the same way, Sandy, but maybe a work around would be that. Things that aren't on the list could be presented as conditional use and maybe granted if. If all, if all the impacts can be mitigated. So we give them a chance to propose it and we say, well, yeah, we can mitigate those, those effects with the criteria that we have or no, we can't. So we, we at least get to hear, rather than say, if it's not on the list, it's prohibited. At least we get to hear some new and creative. The as of things to do, but we can turn it down. If they can't. Mitigate the impacts. I don't know how to say that five words, but. Well, that is the goal of the conditional use process, right? That that is the purpose of the conditional use process. You're not guaranteeing that everything that goes through the conditional use review is going to get proved, right? So if you shape your standards appropriately, you can make sure that you're not. Permitting something that's going to have a grudges impacts. The measure is undue impact. Right. Right. I mean, yeah, I mean, because Sandy, the way Sandy put it, that they are permitted uses with conditions, but they may not necessarily be. They don't fit the conditions. Okay. Meet the conditions or whatever. Can I ask a historical question when. Has it been often that we have not approved a conditional use? I can't think of one that we've turned down. I can think of some that had some pretty stringent. Conditions, the. Weddings up on the hill. I think, I think we, we said, like to a year until we see how it goes or something like that. So. And do you feel that that. Definitely like there was enough. Mitigation of. I think it depends on which neighbor you ask. So that's, that's the only worry of saying it's all conditional use then. It's what. Leg. Do we have to stand on to say no. So we will be going through the criteria, but the criteria are pretty, and I actually sent them out. I sent you what was in the statute and, and Sarah has, has actually copied that into the new draft. So that's, that's, you know, no, no undue impact on these things. And you have the, the legal power to add additional. Standards beyond what statute. Which we have, which you have, and which I'm hoping will continue to have discussions about as part of this process. More standards that could be added to your commission. I had made a note. I read all the useless. All the useless things you know. I'm probably the one wearing pampered. I read them all. I wrote. He's now because it was a long time. Pomp had a lot of exemptions, but Pomp. It was the best. It was simpler with the dimensional requirements in a chart. We don't have them in a chart. They're like their little pampered charts were. Nice. But that was just my personal opinion. I mean, it's probably too late to change areas where theirs was very simple. once we get like the pieces pinned down right there's much simpler to follow than hours for summary to me but I like to accept simple yeah but that's me I wrote they had they must have sat down for days and thought of exemptions because they had thousands bumper did but I actually worked on comforts but with Kevin um yeah and Kevin really and this is something I'm hoping we can talk about is your exemption list right because it doesn't really exist right now there's not much in it that's why I think that's why I was reading theirs you know that list that you saw on comfort really comes from Kevin's 30 years of planning experience um and recognize and us reading through statute and recognizing what are the de minimis impacts that you can't exempt that will just make things easier for folks they don't have to yeah go through the planning process everything well and newberry I wrote down just as a funny side note exemptions with those lines what was saying in those over hours thinking about anyway but anyway I personally like bumpers but anyway um but there are there are housing developments that don't allow all that's where that that's where it comes they're actually there actually was a bill in the legislature for what they called a hang dry to to to know to to to to preserve your your god given right to hang your clothes outside and I'm and I'm not sure I'd ever passed right anyway but it's in newberries but anyway that's just a personal side note where else would you know Sarah hearing our concerns about the prohibited what what would you suggest for wording there so is the question about like what's not named what are we going to do with it yeah I mean the one the one end is one extremist if it's not named it's prohibited and the other is well we said it's conditional use or could be heard as conditional use or how could we say that to keep the door open to um good potential uses for the land my personal recommendation is to say that anything that's not named is a conditional use and you just make sure that your conditional use standards are reflective of your town's values and are protective of anything that you're concerned about is a conditional use or can be considered as a condition is a conditional use so there's no distinction there from a legal standpoint right so there is one process right there's no like oh maybe we like you and you're you're a solid condition at least and then then you're a weak condition at least there's only one legal process everything gets run through the same thing yeah I mean y'all can set yourself up for a lawsuit if you want to we're here to try to discourage that can anyone not live with that alternative of saying if it's not listed it's conditional sounds like we can go with that sir can you respond to doon's question about the the difference between describing the the districts and using them yes thank you I'm sorry um so just for background her folks um might not be familiar with the ordinance so the current language of the ordinance um has sections that describe in in a narrative way the location of those districts and it describes that they follow certain contour lines etc um it's the recommendation of our office to stay away from the textual descriptions of where the districts lie because it's not as accurate as the map right you have a map you can use that as a tool and so what we recommend for all of our towns when they do their bylaws is that in reference you say the locations of these districts are as shown on our zoning map um which is you know a GIS documents you get very specific about where where those zoning boundaries lie um and then if there are any disputes and I've added some language in actually I'm going to apologize for folks for this quick scrolling um I've added some proposed language up here that says um in the event of uncertainty about the limits or boundaries of any district except for the flood hazard overlay district the zba shall have the authority and power upon request of a landowner and after a public hearing to determine where such lines actually fall on the ground questions about the boundaries of the flood hazard overlay district will be resolved as described in sections 3.1 because it has its own process um spelled out within the flood hazard regulations so that's our recommendation and um you know I think that this is like for example if you look at the business residential district the description of where the bounds of that zone lie includes the world the word roughly right that is not a word that we want to see in a zoning ordinance we want a very specific like this is where the the line is and you know because it's so hard to state that in words it's much easier to just reference the map because that has all the information there I guess there was that situation when um through the tenter site where he used the elevation as a very specifically hiked up the road and to see whether or not he was above or below the 940 foot contour line so there are you know it's in a way that in and the river is is there if we got rid of roughly you know it's it's um if I don't know if it's if it's necessary to get get rid of those specifics but they it seems like you can go hand in hand with the the map sometimes maps are are rough correct yeah I mean it's hard to you know I mean the 940 foot contour line is pretty specific and I suppose on the map would have contour lines and you could have that that also is it that much of a detriment to have a little bit of text in there I don't think so I think as long as you're very clear about the order of precedence for reference so you could for example say the zoning map is your first port of call right and if there are any questions from there reference the elevation specifications in the zoning descriptions for each zone if that makes does that make sense look you're you have to be very clear about what has the primary authority well were these maps created from those descriptions presumably I was not around when that assuming that would that would but I this would be the physical manifestation of the written description but I can't guarantee that there aren't discrepancies especially since I mean I don't know what that word roughly means maybe there's a part that doesn't follow the 940 contour line right so yeah it's challenging I think of it in terms of accessibility where folks that maybe don't read maps well or don't have access to the map online or or can't come into the office but can can read the description to give them a rough idea I like having that accessible right there in the plan under the description and putting the caveat that you know the maps are the be all end all and the final say and what you had up there at the top is you know the the board has the final authority on you know where that line is on the ground so I guess right take out the word roughly so the ZBA will resolve any questions arising from the map with reference to the narrative descriptions of the boundaries found within the bylaw so the ZBA will resolve any questions arising from the maps by referencing the narrative descriptions that are in the bylaw I would restore the narrative descriptions and that would be part of your deliberation process is to look at that you know the discussion about the contour lines and so the narrative description is the first point of reference is the second point of reference right because the map is the first and then if there's any concerns or questions the citizen comes to you and then you would look at the map and look at these narrative descriptions to make a decision yep that's that's okay yeah okay works for me any one object to that using that I think that sort of wishy washy language shows up in several of the descriptions so I'll check those other ones as well I feel the need to point out here that that in Irene there was a house in Bethel that where the where the river actually moved and the house turned into an island so the white river does move and but as I'm looking at this I'm not sure that but we don't want we don't want our business residential zone to be on the other side so I guess that that language will still hold but I just want everybody to be aware of the fact that when we're using the river that it's it's fluid well the river it has to be wishy washy you know what the river will be a different river down by us the western boundary is never going to change because that's up against the mountain so it's just that northern level anyway yeah the river does what it's going to do okay are we still in the use once the use list we are um yes yes so we have not yet talked about exemption prohibition for permitted uses do you have a specific question I did but it's a year relevant one but I was reading conference and under the prohibited uses if we're there are we at the prohibited yet did we finish the dive into those I thought we might start with exemption first okay that's fine yeah I didn't from a logical standpoint let's let's start talking about exemptions so this is on page 32 of the document and I'm going to have to scroll I apologize for folks who are on that note about the pamphlet ones having a million exemptions is that plagiarism to use any of the hair because they have a lot you are welcome to copy and paste from any of your fellow towns that is came into its original existence but I don't considering that marinas are on here they had a lot I always thought this one I thought it might open being that I'm right on the river so what I've done here is I have added some suggested preamble language around sort of procedure and this is sort of coming from other towns that we've worked with and just my general knowledge of exemptions the use of structures and development listed in the section shall be required to meet all setback and dimensional requirements for our otherwise exempt from the requirement to obtain a zoning permit under this ordinance written written notification to the administrative officer of intent to build is required it is also advisable to check with the administrative officer to ensure that any contemplated use structure or development meets the requirements of this section this exemption does not apply to any development within the flood hazard overlay district or in the aquifer recharge district uses structures and development that are exempt under this ordinance may not be exempt from requirements of the subdivision regulations and the reader is encouraged to consult that document for more information how does that sound procedurally sounds like it says it do your homework right so there are a lot of required in there but I'm assuming they're all required to be in there right they're all important all the all the required words yes okay yeah I mean there's a lot and you're currently which does say you've got to have written notification to the AO for intensive levels and I'm just sort of like fill that out a little bit more to make it more comprehensive oh I see what she's saying she's just saying but read the first line uses structures and development listed in this section can it just say shall we all set back and dimension requirements instead of required to yeah yeah a lot to I'm saying now there were a lot of required I apologize I'm with you now okay right yep I'm with you now there we go yeah that's a lot better nice thank you that's what I was trying to say sometimes you just fall over the word it's a bylaw require comes up a lot require me most okay so we should move on then to actually discussing your uses um that's the exempt so your current language doesn't sense um accepted agricultural practices and accepted forestry practices the language is a little outdated um and not quite reflective of statutes what I put in there is um language that we would recommend um regarding required agricultural and forestry practices practices which includes per statute um the processing or sale of agricultural and forestry products primarily which case law interprets is more than 50 percent produced on the premises um and so and we did add some language the definition section to just sort of again from statute to to further bolster this um but what we would also recommend is sort of creating some uh safety nets as as it were um for farm structures so while notetown permits are required for construction of a farm structure a farm operator shall submit a zoning permit application so that the and I apologize for the for the AO the AO can determine whether the proposed structure qualifies as a farm structure and whether it meets the setback requirements of the zoning district in which it will be located per the secretary of agriculture's policy the secretary may grant a waiver to the setback requirements on written request and after notifying the town no application fees are for their action by the applicant shall be required if the AO which determines that the proposed structure qualifies as a compliant farm structure um and then this is just sort of with regard to access because I think folks often forget about access when they're thinking about um their projects temporary accesses for forestry operations may require an access permit by the select board and a bond to ensure protection of public roads we're talking about log uh log roads correct temporary ones yep we need to put that in there we're going to assume that they'll know about this forestry operations okay yeah there you go how does that sound to folks does that ring okay very good yeah so the the word may in there um leads to what determines whether it does or doesn't this the secretary may grant I think that that is that we're talking about I think that's the secretary of ag that's the secretary and they have their own processes determined through statute so if somebody wanted to get a waiver they would have to go through the secretary back thinking of the mine too right the temporary access for forestry operations may require an access okay it's okay that's a wishy washy yeah what would you prefer that to be are they required well there may be an existing road I think is what she's trying to say there right so this is where there's no road I'm guessing but maybe I think this is this is for existing roads and then you know if they are building a new access that's temporary and that means do you want to have it when that makes sense right there that they access to have roads so they want some control over whether they destroyed the road well that makes sense and I'm written that way don't you think people well doing you're the one who did this what do you think if there's already an existing road there it's a question it's something they're not and they're just putting something across the ditch to get to their landing that washes out you'd like to at least be able to see it I imagine to have some conversation with nice to at least know what's going on you know before someone just decides to often we're going to connect to the road here so you want you want to get rid of the main one the main one but will we're just required just to get me temporary access there you go so a lot of them so the requirement of a bond would be a new imposition on that that's not required now I don't believe or just access to a road what is what's the purpose of the bond to make sure it's restored to yeah it's just to you could say possibly a bond to ensure protection of public roads if it's in a questionable spot in some areas it's like okay that's fine thanks for letting us know no big deal and other spots it's going to be obviously going to have a significant impact on the roads so then it's a may but it could be it could be requires an access permit and may and possibly a possibly a yeah there you go that there you go say so now this team is suggesting that require and first one require needs and that's temporary accesses oh no accesses no okay move along so here I have this is the language that already exists in your bylaw power generation of transmission facilities that are regulated by the PUC are exempted under statute we have a provision there that says that they should conform to the policies and objectives specified specified process development in the town plan and here you've got some language pertaining not only in fishing and trapping which I've left as is I've added a section here for networked communications that are regulated under statute by the PUC and so this is really in the same vein as your power generation and transmission facilities these are beyond your legal control to regulate but again I've added that language they should conform to the policies and objectives specified in the town plan I've added two more suggestions here one pertains to accessory drawing units and this is sort of coming out of our conversation about promoting the development of additional housing in Rochester and so one tiny piece of that conversation is a recommendation we're making to our towns that if somebody wanted to create an accessory drawing unit um within the existing footprint of their building and they're not changing the total number of bedrooms in the structure um that that should be exempt from a permit um because really you're not changing water wastewater or anything like that you're just putting up some walls within a house an existing house and you're not changing the the actual impact um and I did I did include sort of a um a loophole gear that it doesn't apply in flood hazard areas because that needs more scrutiny but I wanted to put that to the commission to ask for your thoughts on that particular provision so that the important thing is the number of bedrooms and that covers it right you're not changing the occupancy issue of the house or the building bedrooms or what drives sewage although it wasn't the accessory building wouldn't they be doing bedrooms no well if you're carving up my house and I'm and I'm just and I'm just setting aside this bedroom to be talking about an existing structure yeah yeah that's all there that's what I was thought I was waiting it wrong okay yeah yeah yeah sounds good to me Dan can you still see my screen I can yep thank you I'm sorry it was gone for a minute there but I can see it now yep the internet died out for a minute and come back thanks okay so it sounds like we're okay with baby you language yeah okay um yeah and I like I like that you have owner occupied right uh huh yep that's not that's not statuary that's truly the part of that um spices they're not in this particular so statutory statute says that if you're going to have an adu the owner has to be somewhere on the lot for the owner to live in the adu and an adu is a detached adu is statutorily protected as long okay so but when you're talking about adus in general the owner has to be somewhere on the lot okay okay um and so as I was looking through exemption lists from other towns I was thinking okay what's you know fair minimum that I would recommend they include um I saw that you had some languages around fences already in a different part and so I've sort of merged that together with some recommended language from other towns and I've written fences burns man made earthen structures stone or retaining walls any of which are up to 4.5 feet high and are placed outside of the right of way placement inside of the right of way or failure to meet setback requirements from the edge of the road surface requires a waiver and a permit outside the right way no question on this then a um a retaining wall let's say um could be right on your property line as long as it's outside of the right of way um a right of way but um you know on the property line with a neighbor you could build a retaining wall to not consider the structure that needs a permit um we could we could make that clear um is that yeah is that the way you we would read this though uh as far as right of where are we considering that like part that's like also say the side or rear setbacks of the property now we're talking we're talking a road right away like what maybe used to be down in front of the catholic church although you can't see much of it anymore because it's kind of under grass and whatever but there are some properties have utility rights of way do we want to make it clear that we're talking about highway rights of way hmm yeah I like that I'm raising the question because I've had in the last couple years at least two inquiries about fences being placed right on the property line and some people have said well there has to be a setback from from a property line and there's nothing in our zoning that said said such a thing and I couldn't find it anywhere so I've been advising folks that they could build a fence right on their property line and I would from this I would assume the same would be for a berm or a retaining wall or so what happens to the to the fence on the side of my property if it's six feet you would go through the planning process I think I've lost the thread of these are exemptions exemption thank you thank you I can leave it just as it is if it's clear to everyone that so basically you're saying something like a privacy fence it maybe you wanted it to be eight feet tall maybe the permit would require even if it's not in the right way it's not but it should be granted because because we don't we don't require a setback for a fence but it but it would require maybe the standard process of going through yeah and a line of trees is that considered a agricultural fence no and that's not a fence landscaping I think I'm ready to say this looks yeah yeah good good for me okay um so at this point I wanted to ask if there were additional types of development additional uses that you wanted to add to this exemption list I didn't want to go too crazy and start dumping everything from the pamphlet list in there because it's really it's a values question right um and so I those lines could get heated I put in the fences because I feel like that was pretty you know basic um de minimis stuff I couldn't open the pamphlet list could somebody read it you have it did you bring I actually have it printed do you want it or or you could just read it to us it's it's pretty long quite long okay forget no I have it but I what I could do for the benefit of everybody is boil it up yeah so it's long yeah yeah I picked out a few that um from all the examples that I liked I could share those actually yeah sami you might be right there's somebody in the waiting room yeah I didn't plan down I must have read it online I just remember reading it yeah I must have read I just remember it being really long said Sheila popped in popped out yeah I must have read it online wait well I get in the tournament and I had participants and there's nobody nobody in the waiting room because you've taken over my screen um yeah waiting room Sheila just to fit that because there's someone's because I don't have that she's joining okay awesome and then she is did you want to take a moment for the entries so um just for the benefit of folks who are online this is a copy of Pompwrits uh bylaw and they have quite an extensive exemption list um including temporary structures with many caveats attached to those um normal maintenance and repair so long as you're not you know altering dimensions or changing use interior alterations temporary events um on-premise signs that meet certain specifications and those are quite detailed um yes um also uh sort of antennae and satellite dishes those kinds of things non-commercial trails grading filling excavation with some caveats there too yeah as you can tell it goes it goes on by clothes lines and other energy devices chimneys patios terraces that sort of stuff de minimis structures or uses not specifically mentioned in this ordinance that are incidental and customary to the use on the lot versus the catch all kind of of provision there so that would be like Tillschen thank you well I think they referenced Dan did you say you had you had made a list of the ones you I I did and you know there there aren't there are there are no bad ones on this list I think they all make sense how big of a list do we do we want how far do we want to go um so I don't know I can tell you the ones that I liked why don't you run those by a scan okay um I like the uh non-commercial trail that was in two of the the examples I like the temporary structures and events so it allows someone to put up a you know a wedding tent for for an event or a concert fuel and propane tanks for one and two family homes I like the de minimis structures which would give doing a little bit of a little bit of leeway that way we don't have to list everything under the sun um temporary structures that are up for less than a year temporary structures such as campers travel trailers tps things that are not permanent structures as long as it's not permanent storage of such yeah we've had in the past I think we had a rule that you couldn't live in a travel trailer for more than three months yeah I think we do have that and this and the one in the I think it's the newberry one talks about a number of days in a year I think it was 60 days in a year that you could you know live in your tp or something like that yeah like you know just as an example how would like the camper that's just moved in across the road from my home up against the highway in front of that tower services old house I mean she's just starting it there for the winter but I mean how does that fit into this yeah it's just stored there no one's living in it okay but that's what I mean these these uh exempted uses I mean we're just calling we're just parking it there and that's a use and that's okay I would say that's not even a use you're just parking your your camper in here it's just curious because it popped in there you know not that I have any opposition to it versus yeah I mean how is it different from a big truck oh it's I guess it's not really just I don't know it's came to mind when you mentioned so it's trailers and so you have some language already in your your bylaw um the standards pertaining pertaining to travel trailers travel trailers pick up campers motor homes for any other similar vehicle used for recreational purposes may be parked or stored on a lot when used as a temporary residence for a period not to exceed three months no permit is required so it sounds like I would add that to this list somebody being in that trip so when such vehicles are used over three months consecutively they must meet all requirements applicable to dwellings this provision shall not apply to a recreational vehicle and an established camper so to be clear that would allow someone to live in the camper for three months take a day off and then move all their stuff out and then move all their stuff back it is I mean just the way I'm just wondering why we even have the rule I mean this day and age of affordability of any housing at all with drama living in one year I mean I'm confused oh I have no I have no issue with it but it just it was just an auto I mean why it's not prohibited to live all year round and when you just have to get a permit like any other residents I think the concern is is the inceptical water and like that okay so again there's a long list of potential exemptions and I don't know how we want to want to deal with it mean those were just a few that I jumped out at me sure close lines and chimneys and parkalists are should be exempt too but I'd rather give that discretion to the administrative officer to just be able to tell people if they even ask yes would never occur to me to ask for a clothesline I mean what's the requirement a porch post in a tree I mean you know anyway yeah I agree with Dan to not have things like that okay I move that Sarah add the ones that Dan just mentioned to the list and that we look at this in the next draft I second that third third and fourth didn't thank you Dan I'll send you that list Sarah and thank you so much and which which by all they came out of so you can just cut and paste them awesome thank you okay action item for Dan Maya there you go awesome Maya has a hand up um I'm just wondering can you um uh send me a list that list I don't I'm not sure I got them all of the I I would suggest that for purposes of the minutes it's enough to say that we are going to expand the list of exemptions and it will be in the next draft yeah okay good okay all right and your action item Dan is to get that list to Sarah yes okay got it thank you good thanks Maya my good clarification it's a new term that came up in the last meeting that I missed this action I didn't think yes we have we have many for you do you're not hearing us while you get signed up okay so we've talked through the exemptions list let's move on to the prohibited lists and so basically what I'd like us to do is just just step through each of the zoning districts and um I'd like your guidance around what uses are prohibited in each of those districts after we charge everything right so um we'll come to that in a minute let's start with business residential which is a harder one um am I am I correct we can't we can't prohibit agriculture correct yeah yeah so so I can raise sheep in the village or pigsty that was what I was thinking about slaughterhouses today I don't want slaughterhouses I don't know if that's agriculture because um that should be in a remote area uh Maya has a hand up again this I'm sorry I just forgot to put it down last time um are we doing the perm I'm sorry the permitted one so just just she wants she wants to she wants us to make a list of the things that we that we would prohibit in the in the business residential okay this business residential slash village um I've seen it in different uh represented differently in different places do we have one term right so so you so you missed last month and we had this debate last month okay okay um and what we what we decided is that the zone that we've always had is business residential we you and I will call it the village and we know what we mean by that okay but that is the one and so what our office will do is all we'll revise the label on the zone districts map so you're good to go yeah cool there is there is a designated that's correct there's a special process that we went through with the state to get a designate that gives us some tax advantages to somebody and that's to and that's and that's and that's other things that's much smaller yeah okay it's like business residential center okay got you okay so Sandy you you uh brought up slaughterhouse is that what the term you used yes I don't want a slaughterhouse next door to me well um okay and so I think you know if it's just a slaughterhouse it's not actually connected to a farm then I don't think it falls under the agricultural protections um because I was like a customer oh yeah oh yeah right yeah that's to be produced on if you were if you had obviously if you had a farm you could you could kill your yeah yeah yeah that's not that's not what I meant right we're talking about sort of so if someone um has a beef cow well I think of it maybe as a um butcher slop shop slash slaughterhouse where people bring their livestock not on large scale but you know the the the two um beef cow you raised and a couple of pigs and you bring them to a shop um and they slaughter them process them um you know take care of the carcasses in a responsible way and get the meat back to the the the grower is that a slaughterhouse I know a lot of people make a business out of doing that during the you know venison during hunting season um it's temporary chop shop if you want to call it such um you know I'm thinking of the other processes they're on is it is it the country butcher over there in Randolph the processes but yeah yeah I don't know I that did come to my mind also um if the carcasses were not disposed of on on the property I might think differently of it if they haul them off and you know dispose or compost them or did whatever they do with them somewhere again um the question is whether whether that should happen in the business residential zone and I would argue not commercial details I would think that it could be in commercial ag or ag residential but not not in the village but that's just yeah yeah yeah I would think the nature of that would kind of tend to lend people to be a little more further removed from yeah other yeah okay I feel you I feel you we had a um inquiry about a um can you remember for us an airstrip or a helicopter landing pad might have been a helicopter landing pad so to me I think that is like a safety and a noise thing that I wouldn't want in the village any thoughts on that they're like like much bigger entities than us that regulate a lot of that type of stuff probably are mean but I would agree with Dan that doesn't whether whether it belongs anywhere in town it certainly doesn't belong in the village well I mean we have the emergency you know dark landing area right across the river from the house there by the state garage but oh yes that is their spot that's designated for that purpose um yeah but you're talking like a private yeah you're private I buy my yep when I you know hit the mega bucks and get my chopper where do I park it right okay about um I don't even know if there's a place for it in the village mineral extraction okay yep well we're talking to the business resident I mean the only place they'd extract anything would be down there in the fields that are behind the school I mean that's only if somebody was able to somehow gravel extraction I don't even know well I have gravel yeah yeah yeah you're part of the bank I would like to suggest that we use the the existing grid that we have I like the grid so so that so that we're actually in alphabetical order exactly okay amusement parks golf course I think that is weird but it's a loud look at the map is well actually north of town there's actually space maybe to be able to do one but south of the village there isn't and the only place that I mean there is one in a place where we don't allow it it is right so and the only other areas that are open enough even for such an enterprise are like in hollows or maybe somewhere on maple hill or you know but that's all what that's all conglets there but it's kind of a problem so back to this chart so are people to assume if it's not on this chart it needs a condition we use is that how it's interpreted right now this chart is structured by the old the old sort of structure so we would we would be revising this so that but I mean it says what is permitted and what isn't but I mean if it's not on this list are people to assume well that's that's a conversation we had earlier yeah right but right but right now right now what she's asking is what would we say specifically we're in business residential we say you can't do yeah okay no golf course but I mean they're already they're blanks right like the music practice not right yeah camping is not permitted I mean we can go down through and it's already done for us the same time you know I don't think it was explicitly stated that anything that was not permitted or conditionally this was prohibited oh um so if that's the case I'm happy to take those blanks and expose them in here just let me know because the ones that are blank we obviously would not want into like camping are correct I don't know maybe it would dig something good on the park commercial recreation I I guess I question that because we now have skate skate skate space I mean that's it's not commercial but yeah but is there a reason why we wouldn't want to have oh I don't know uh uh you have to pay for cross country ski lessons well we did at one time have a video arcade in the side of the max or rotating back at the place right right so we could put a needed so I don't put permitted there yeah that shouldn't be blank I'll agree with you I mean do you go downtown sometimes different kind of recreation why don't we allow drive-in stands in the in the woods oh no exactly the drive-in stand well the credit union is once which is already here considering something like like like what these dogs used to do is that is driving well that was just all it's only I mean that's a mobile whatever but you know I mean I think I think you're talking like you want an A and W downtown I think the concept is food right but you're right we already have but but this is but if there was if we were going to have one it should be in the village shouldn't it yes not in the hollow so why not go up catch a burger anyway where we can't dilly dally tonight we have a lot still on yeah this is a tough one figuring out the exemptions it's a hard yeah I didn't know that was on our agenda tonight so public utilities up station there's one in town so all right I don't know that that's your power to regulate either I think that's potentially why don't we just facility why don't we just do not talk about it take it off the list yeah we not only have one we have it in the flip side well that's what I mean you'll be happy yeah like like communities all across America yep well when they built it was where's closest to the lines and where's an open space scared so we have a skating rink that one's blank that's odd okay so this is kind of outdated okay outdoor recreation that yeah that shouldn't be blind anyway so maybe talking about this thing um um a light man jeez okay we have definitions that distinguish unfortunately what I've noticed is that the uses you have listed in your in your ordinance aren't all defined okay so we're gonna have to figure that out as well yeah so basically what you have discovered is ours is a matter and that's why you're here and we're very great we really had a very good meeting there I needed for 17 very great differentiation some some groups take longer all good oh boy so um what I've so far I've heard um maybe camping areas would anyone object to making that proven in the village in the village camping area I mean it's sorry in the business residential so what what's Kennedy Drive that wasn't um it's he's up to help he's in conservation conservation okay gotcha well I mean if it's blank now isn't that considered prohibited yeah yeah okay so let's yeah it's blank means yeah these are blank but I but I think that Drive-in stands shouldn't be blank right me I agree so do we have agreement that camping areas would be prohibited yeah okay that's what's the next one down that someone objects to being in the village you can look at the blank ones or anyone we said Drive-in stands should be okay in the village and that isn't residential and commercial and commercial wreck so we were here but commercial wreck manufacturing or processing establishments so what does commercial wreck entail I mean I rent bikes and people go out to to ride I know we're saying we're saying it's okay oh we're saying it's not okay but right now yeah it's under the old rules like like if you turn the warehouse into so did we change that Sandy though yeah okay laser tag so we have a community center in our business so um so I'm looking I'm looking at the blanks I'm trying to figure out if we want to keep the blanks um I guess I guess heavy manufacturing whatever that is maybe shouldn't be in the village it should be out in on state road room so that's me capturing our processing establishments yeah well it's already but you know but we had AI in the village for a while and it's light that's right okay gravel extraction I didn't tell motor launches I don't have strong feelings about that you do or don't I'm saying I don't have strong feelings I think now if it's lodging you want it in terms yeah if we were going to have one you should be here sorry so I got mineral and gravel extraction what did you say about mobile not prohibited not prohibited and motel motor lodges are not prohibited I'm sorry mobile home park and mobile home parks yes yes prohibited oh yeah I'm just I'm just okay yeah motels not in the village yes I hope to how do you define that in my hostel I it I don't see any reason to prohibit it I think I'm not sure anybody's going to find a great place for it but I don't think it would be better for the town right along the wall he keeps a body for it prohibited can we go back to mobile home parks why would we prohibit those in the village in the village in the village yeah this is where this no although Bethel's is in the village yep I mean just living I really don't think there's a space for it but I think that's the but we shouldn't prohibit it first okay I guess I give are you in agreement Dan don't forget yeah right exactly ski area marina I love to see a beach and a marina and a ski jump so but we have a skating night so yes those are all very different things we should marina on the beach we don't even live near water well I'm a lot near water well the ski area can refer to Nordic skiing as well cross country skiing yeah I think I think we're not in the village I think all of those are permitted we're not prohibited yep I agree yeah and the same without recreation at the bottom going out there wildlife refuge okay Dan are you going to have a wildlife refuge on your property I'm not probably probably not it might be wildlife but I don't think it'll be a refuge yes I think it's a stretch to have that in the village however there may be some unique ecological feature along the white river or something that somebody might propose as a refuge again why are those two clumped together because outdoor recreation does work with the skate space and you know because we ran out of lines on the page Julie that's why it doesn't look like that we're all conserving words okay we cannot digress people okay so what I've got here for the following uses are prohibited in the business residential district is slaughterhouse helicopter landing pad for private residential use quarries mineral and gravel extraction amusement park golf course camping areas manufacturing or process and establishments and that's heavy manufacturing which I need to make sure it's actually defined yeah good looks like a good list to me great um what is the helicopter only for private residents we were trying to distinguish it from the hospitals from the dart oh but that's not here it's not in the it's not in the no no it's it's it's in the calm it's whatever it's it's over in the actually it's just a garage right yeah is it possible that someday it might need to move to the business I mean I think whoever was involved in that decision making process selected that because of the open area necessary yeah I think I think it's in a program okay so we'll just say a helicopter landing pad period is prohibited okay everybody note that in commercial ag there is nothing prohibited right correct so we move on to the next one well um folks I want to do a time check yeah and check in with Sarah on her did you know that we have that we have yes you've arrived yes I see a phone number and I see Robert other others Janine we're and Bruce Marshall are in the room oh in the room okay so we want to want to see how much time Sarah has remaining we generally like to finish up around eight o'clock but we have some guests that we want to hear from and Sarah what's your sense and how much more time do you want to put to this not not in brass because I have cookies so I want to respect y'all's time limits um we did not get through even the minimum stuff that we were supposed to get through today um there's a lot of stuff for the the planning commission to think about and deliberate so I'm trying to think about the best way for us to move forward schedule wise obviously my time is fairly limited by the budget that we have together um in terms of like an actual contract stop time um the this this work that I'm doing with y'all is being paid for by two separate grants one is a separate contract with the town to do this sort of general health and wellness you know uh tune up on your bylaw and then the other is very housing specific content technically our general tune up contract ends February the end of February 28th 2023 which we can extend there's no you know higher power that's telling us we have to end in February the housing stuff we could stretch into we had originally in our office we have a whole bunch of towns that working with our housing stuff um we were trying to get folks wrapped up by spring but it looks like some of our towns are going to stretch into the summer and if Rochester needs to be one of those that's okay um we're not under the gun from the state to get it done by May right so we have some flexibility however my time is limited um and so I'm trying to think about ways that we can move forward and I'm wondering if the planning commission would be amenable to like meeting and discussing on your own I can send you the prompts right just like I did for this meeting I'm like I need your decisions on XYZ you could meet on your own come up with your decision send it back to me and then I can work on it remotely and then obviously I don't meet with you again yes right yes but just to minimize the amount of like face time that I'm charging you for yeah I tried to cookie fries I know I would agree with what she just said because obviously her time is very valuable to us so yeah but if we could be more organized for her I would so I was I was very impressed with the drafts that Sarah gave us of things today um I guess we're having more trouble with these things that are a little bit more open-ended like these um like these lists um but I wouldn't mind having some suggestions in that regard that we could look at I mean it's you know yeah I mean we don't have to go with 12 pages from proper but I mean you've worked on other towns um you know you could say this is this is what most most towns do and we could say no not for us or or we had this other idea but but I find it very useful to have a draft to work with me directly okay you have an incredible wealth of knowledge which is like it just feels like we're doing good work with you here too and well yeah with her here but in the meantime it's in the meantime but yeah no I I like your idea but yeah so maybe what we could do is I'm wondering if like January well I should stop so what is the town's expectation for when you want to get this all done and wrapped up are you up against a deadline no okay we just don't want to drag it out for another four years so I'm wondering for the January meeting what if I tee up um another track changes document with a topics and questions for discussion guide um that will walk you through what I need your decisions on um and then you can get as far as you can in your meeting and then somebody can report back to me either Maya somebody can send me the minutes right and I can work with that and then I can be in contact with Dan um with Sandy about like whether I show up to the February meeting or whether we do another iteration of that what do you think that sounds good me too yeah that sounds like a good good plan to our arguments amongst ourselves about things and then right yeah yeah okay and would you be amenable to this um for certain things maybe just putting in like a comment saying other towns have done blank or this is what other towns have done and there's this is my so we have some of the already yeah so I found the comments very helpful in that yeah yeah so what I did for this particular meeting is in the sort of like topics and questions guide I said okay um here's what I need you to make some decisions on and I I've attached to this email examples from xyz towns and then I made little folders in my groups like example regulations was that helpful yes I did it also went when work is done yeah and I and I couldn't know that so were you able to open the pds uh I finally could but it was like okay so that's what I'll do again for when we're when we're talking about various issues um and I will try to get you so when your next meeting I believe is what January she's they've got it on the computer yes January three okay when would you like me to get you the packet of information before the meeting Christmas yeah Christmas under the tree okay although it is the holiday season you may not have time to do um whatever I'm gonna I'm gonna be taking off starting on the 21st um so I'll just pedal to the middle of between now and then I'll get you draft to work with um and it won't be finalized it won't be like real final draft but it'll just have a bunch of stuff that you make decisions on and work on right you suggest the word in whatever else correct so I mean any of some tweaks have you seen sounds that are worse more dumbled than ours concrete you know you know conference by law conference by law before we worked on it had last been substantially revised in I believe 1973 okay it was highly illegal almost every regard so you know what it's like everybody's coming from a different place right just doing the best we can and now look at their pilots yeah anyway let's get another 40 years we'll be okay the new board all right sounds like we have a plan to move forward yes yeah thank you Dan for retracting you um I don't believe there's anything else let me just check I had I had made myself a note um can I just ask you a quick organizational question which will impact how the document is structured um so right now the way that your your ordinance is structured is that your standards that are applied to various kinds of uses are a bit jumbled they're sort of mixed throughout the document and logically there's not a great flow there what I'd like to propose is the structure that we use for all the ordinances that we will come to towns where your general standards apply to all development even the exemptions have to make sure that they are meeting the general standards right um your special standards that's a term that applies to specific uses so in that section you would have things like the language pertaining to travel trailers or the language pertaining to queries right something that's specific to a use um and then the conditional use standards is just for the conditional use review process and it is for all types of uses that go through the conditional use process so it's not you're not going to have a conditional use standard that is specific to a quarry for example because that's already covered under your special standards that will have been part of the process but your conditional use standards are sort of general standards that will apply to every use that gets run through that process how does that sound yes yes please okay streamlining something lord you you have said that you're in your standard right and I've emphatically will agree awesome thank you that's really helpful direction thank you so much Dan thank you Sarah thank you very much thank you yes yes thank you wow great work yes very good all right um well sarah's um packing up we'll we'll move on to our um public comment part of our meeting and we do have some guests so um if any of our guests would like to share their thoughts um please uh up to the mic yeah um excuse me dan danis robert frank's up at hooper hollow yeah robert i've been listening yeah i i would like to just um share my questions and the first question is can we synchronize our time because of the three-minute compression yeah start now go i'll let you know when you have 30 seconds no what time is it i have my stopwatch going um and on my computer it's 805 yeah i got 806 okay so let's roll well first of all dan i want to thank you for your polite and timely uh responses also finding and sharing the uh statute that gives you the authority to compress uh public the planning and zoning board meeting from five to three minutes uh our dialogue over the last three days might have been um a little bit aggravated but we got to a conclusion and i would recommend to all the boards that if they're going to introduce a compression of the public's comments they should reflect the statute that gives them the authority to do so uh with regards to retroactive minutes this is a surprising thing um i i just want everyone to realize this i looked at i looked at the minutes for the uh planning and zoning board meeting the minutes of august september october and november we're not present so my question is and i'm just going to ask questions this evening you guys um wholesaled the approval of minutes from the august meeting september meeting october meeting and november meeting i don't believe that anyone remembers the minutes that were presented in august that should be approved the uh i'm moving onward i also want to ask with regards to brella uh the umbrella of the rochester reuse is the planning and zoning board very familiar with the last select board and what was decided you don't have to answer and this evening who is taking the minutes i think that was your first question robert as i understand you um uh maya is taking the minutes she is our new clerk she is a town employee and is going to be taking our our minutes um and if you miss the early part of the meeting she'll have the minutes to standy um and sandy will have them to the town clerk for posting by the end of the week so we're endeavoring to hit that five-day mark well i think that i think that is a great accomplishment for the town because there are people's lives and property owners that are retroactively looking for the minutes that may have happened in august and you guys tonight wholesaled the approval of the minutes for basically four months uh that's maya should know that's not acceptable uh also i wanted to say something uh uh hello also i wanted to say to sarah before she packed up and left if rand mcnally was still alive uh sarah would be the executive executive senior director of cartography he's a very impressive woman now i brought this up last meeting with regards to my census in 2010 uh with regards to the fisk properties everything that was discussed tonight what i've gleaned it's been 12 12 years everything that sarah brought up and the concerns that the board brought up are actually present at the fisk properties and i don't understand how 40 years of the lack of planning and zoning is basically dismissed from the planning and zoning board i mean we're you were talking about fences tonight well take a ride up and watch everyone build their fences and have dog fights with the state police uh trying to separate the neighbors i mean this is a serious issue because the fisk road is part of the town of rochester and i don't understand we're gonna have to wrap it up we're gonna have to wrap it up okay so the fisk road so how much how much time do i have um you used your three minutes and a little bit more okay the last thing i want to say is with regards to mineral rights is a good chance through the valley up here at hooper hollow guess who owns the mineral rights to the talc talcville and everyone else take a guess no idea uvm they bought the mineral rights for this whole whole valley back in 1940s so i think i don't think you guys should be worried about mineral rights along the white river uvm owns them and you can research it and find it but um you know again i i do thank uh i do thank you guys for listening and maybe the next meeting you guys can answer my question thank you so much and god bless rochester thanks robert thanks for um i think it's the same to appreciate that and we have uh visitors in the room that i can't see i can't quite see on the owl why don't you come closer yeah first we have a question so we just found out recently that um you're looking to change excuse me we need you to say your name please your name please so we just found out recently you're looking to change your bylaws and we talked to an architect who's working with and the issue with white man called he assured us that the normal pattern is that um bylaws are strengthened over time not weakened and i just wanted assurance from all of you that nothing is going to be weakened um to facilitate white man hell's fraud so that's excuse me for my house a question i'll go ahead my question yeah sorry i didn't get the speaker's name i'm going to put your hand down okay um janine can you spell your name for maya please uh jea and i any and your last name w e i r and bruce marshall m a r s h a l l bruce b r u c e okay thanks maya go ahead we just started wanting assurance that nothing is going to be passed to um 20 years after the lineman hall effectuated their fraud of 2003 that they get a little shoe in and it gets rubber stamped because you know it's not like that would hold up in a court of law um but it's still profoundly upsetting because there's you know ongoing use violations that they're engaging with um in so many ways and you know you're proposed minutes and i'd like to answer to that question because you know the the even though in 2003 um your requirements for duplexes didn't exist since this has been an ongoing use there's been ongoing use violations when your um requirements for duplexes went into the the local zoning you know for the requirement for a fireball i mean there's obviously their state of vermont regulations that were there for 2003 with um the department of fire safety that became you know the law for all of vermont um but in terms of the local zoning for duplexes um i we just want assurance that that's not going to be slightly removed when the bylaws are changed because we've just felt really honestly um mistreated by the planning board and in so many ways by the legal system for so long and we just need this to end so in terms of your proposed minutes and we do want an answer if you don't want to give us an answer tonight you need an answer to that in terms of your proposed minutes um but there needs to be we abstract that this is so late and we have questions about why um if there's just to be and you have about a minute left in your in your time so i have three minutes and just we're dealing with what we're saying is first can continue but you know we've come to you and we've said this is fraud it's not just we've said there's violations of zoning we said there's violations of state law federal law um there's a lot of violations here that are intentional um intentionally effectuated with center this is not like bumbling people who just didn't know what they were doing they know exactly and they still don't know exactly what they're doing and there's we abduct a lot of what you wrote here this is for eight this was for eight two and nine six and it's just a lot of this is not accurate there needs to be some some more honesty if you're going to say that um the planning board said that you don't have jurisdiction we need to say that we disagreed that you do have jurisdiction and you also need to say honestly what you said in these two planning board meetings why you said you don't have jurisdiction because you said all the land is liming halls you said it's not a subdivision and you said the private roads um so you need to write those things you need to not just say oh we said it's inaccurate we didn't just say it's inaccurate we said this is major fraud and we've been really hurt and a lot of homeowners at quarry hill have been really hurt and as Sheila bronze spoke to you about um last fall 2021 you know a lot of people at quarry hill have been very hurt you're talking about two and a half years they have renters in the farmhouse without hot water i mean we've just really had it with the level of abuse and vampirism from lemon hall and we need the black gun and yes we said we give you the letter but per vermont law you know you've been you've received oral notice and we'll finish our letter for you but you know i've had chronic line disease this has been really brutal with lineman polls but history i've been really sick we have a million things to deal with so the letter is going to take a little longer but you need to understand you know the kind of things you wrote here it's just written in a very um not not honest way it's not our black map we didn't we have nothing to do with that black map that's lineman house five months um so you know we'll get the letter together but there needs to be some honest dealing with what's going on here um because thank you basically we've been indentured servants to lineman hall since they sued us in 2019 and we've had enough so jenny yeah i think of your time dan is saying that your time this is the first would like to speak then you may have three minutes i don't know what to say other than um robert franks did call and uh said something here there was an incident recently over the plat map uh where the call the police were called and we were brought there by our neighbor because she felt uh physically unsafe there by the behavior of brian McFarland president of lineman hall of corporate uh who was um and there's been other incidences of things this had to do with the fence and her putting up a force fence and issues about what's property what's real nothing went through with that that uh plat map and it's serving as as as an instrument as we said a fraud um and uh they had taken us to court of course and they did not get their summary judgment they haven't pled their their things right and they had a lot of problems here and uh so um yeah uh we like seeing the process here and uh but i think it's difficult when we don't feel like uh we're getting some understanding about some of our concerns all right thank you bruce and thank you gene um the the letter will be critical to us we're gonna i mean you've talked a lot of um legalese and we're going to need that letter to understand your points and to engage our town attorney in this i don't have the skill to where's your town attorney i don't know you don't know that's interesting what was it he doesn't know because he doesn't have to deal with him very often that's um we have um depends for what purpose if we're in a suit then we have to engage someone different because the town attorney is not a trial attorney right and i'm um what is his name we don't have to talk with him very much um it's a remand gov law this is email jim barlow jim barlow is the same just to just to understand that you're that's how we're talking because um yeah i don't know if we have any trust because we don't have trust in attorneys but that's another question i think we'll go hey thank you all right um let me just uh do a quick um check in with maya how that um how that went maya for you and anything we can do or help you with as your as you do this how did it how did it work out for you tonight um i think it went pretty well there are just a couple of things that i wasn't quite clear on um but i will check in with sandi about that i think everything's pretty good um i did have one question about um so i know i'm supposed to record the names of anyone who speaks um there is someone who was not identified who's been putting messages on the chat um is just listed as resident it do i need that person's name if they are um messaging via the chat no i see the chat i'm not able to respond to the chat and um and also share the meeting so i'm not going to use the chat as a way to do a discussion um i see that robert has asked some questions in there and i can respond to robert later about those um i've responded to him on some of those already so i'll take care of that it's just not an effective use when people start using the chat and also start are also communicating um in the zoom um it's just it's like having two conversations at once right thank you yep thank you so much yeah thank you i appreciate it i really appreciate it um any other any other topics from the um from the um sarah has something so i just one one note to add um so i at the beginning of the meeting i talked about the uh the use of a legal trail issue i just wanted to throw in the caveat which i'm always supposed to say that we're not lawyers right so our office we are not attorneys in our office that's just our reading of statute um and the collective wisdom of the planners in our office and that's the best we came up with so or what it's worth we hope it's helpful either way but we're expected to be anyway um david had a hand in the architecture i just had a question about i let's go back just had our highway rebuilt up through and the state has requested of me an easement on my property to cover the area of the culvert for future repair or maintenance and whatever um my curiosity being our setback rules and whether our interpretation of them and whether my wellhead being relatively close to that area they wish to acquire uh does that become a problem to anyone uh either myself or them in the process setback of your wellhead you know excuse me if you take your one they just want to take this 400 square feet or whatever it is rectangular piece that basically incorporates the culvert and however much room they decide they need on either side that edge boundary of that proposed easement or permanent easement this you know does there need to be another 25 feet beyond that to get to the wellhead or what you know what i'm saying so so if it's if it's an easement you continue to own the property and it does not change your property line yes they want a permanent yeah but that's not so that doesn't become a new boundary that doesn't become so there's no setback it's a permanent right to cross but you continue you will continue to pay the taxes for that piece now they might that was just curious whether that had any impact on you know the location the location the wellhead any impact on where that line was drawn i i i think you may have a safety issue with i mean is is are they are they going to have gravel and stuff that's so close that it's going to i mean that's a different issue i mean it is but that's hard to get to this room maybe but you know but you know but the curate there's no way that wouldn't create any kind of an impingement on doesn't it doesn't change your boundary line right okay sure i mean i do not wish to have a permanent easement on my property for any reason or to have that cumber it's on the deed of the title because they will have to change all of that correct to reflect the the the easement there will be a a deed from you to them giving them a right to cross right which would have to then create new paperwork and new it's it's it's that's that is the paperwork oh okay yeah not that i wish to have it happen but just so that i know what the details of it are so i've always given them access do you like more stuff good night sir she has more stuff okay go okay thanks dandy i see another block on the on the participant says resident is that someone new i don't know who i don't know who that is well we this is our public comment period if resident has anything they wanted to share this would be the time to do it the public is left all right so um we have our marching orders from sarah so i mean some some homework and around the holidays really critical that folks take a close look at that and be able to have conversations about that in january and when we get to these topics like the exemptions and creating lists it's really tedious and slow work so we gotta do our homework and be ready for it i'm gonna be uh intend to be back in vermont for the january third meeting which um help is helpful for me bye sarah thank you thank you very much you said you will be back for the january one dance i intend to yes yeah so if there's nothing else i'll make a motion to adjourn unless we're not done yet nope um we're done i i need i need to just mention that we received um today the um the formal 45 day notice on the um micro grid project for brandon mountain um that's up by on property that mike bowen has um that north hall upon so if we think think the old gravel pad on separate servers um and this is to um create a rochester resiliency zone so we'll have a chance to review this maybe next month okay just your resiliency zone now i'll make a motion to adjourn unless we have something else second all right all in favor thanks for your work on the on the zoning