 So remember, anything you say or type will be preserved for all of posterity. While we're waiting to see if anyone else joints, there's just a few housekeeping things. Last week, someone had asked if they could see people's questions and go to webinar if won't let other participants see the questions if you use the question box. But there is a chat box and if you type your questions in there and then make sure you're set to, that you send it to all audience, the entire audience, then everyone will be able to see your questions and your comments. So if you wouldn't mind doing that, I think that would be helpful for everyone. And then that way if there's a question that I maybe don't quite have an answer on, someone else can chime in without me having to completely repeat the question. But if you do want to use that question box, that's okay. That's fine with me, whatever you're comfortable with. So I think we're going to go ahead and get started. So before we get started with the mark to XX Fields, we did have an assignment, kind of a survey of your familiarity with mark and whether you can customize those fields, what you can customize in your ILS. And so for the most part, and I'll just pull that up here. I do have the answers posted. And so for the most part, everyone is pulling their records from their vendor and or OCLC and some of you are creating your mark records from scratch when you don't have the right record for the item in hand. And it seems to be kind of for those non-book items. And then we had a wide variety of automated systems. And you know, most of you are aware that you can edit in the fixed fields and a few weren't sure. And I encourage those of you who, oh, hey, I got a question here. We can't see the chat box. How do I pull it up? Hmm. That's a really good question. And I don't know. Um, let's see. View. Oh, click on the red arrow at the top. Is that what people should do to go ahead and see the chat box? Or, okay, yeah, because you can, there's a red arrow. And you guys probably can't see this. Let me show my other screen. Okay, so right up here, there's a red arrow. And right now I have it clicked so I can see this entire panel right here. But if you, so if it's closed, you can click to open it. No, it's just the question box and not a chat box with everyone box. Hmm. Okay, well, I will have to look into this a little bit more for now. Let's just do, we'll just do questions. And I will go ahead and transcribe those questions and any comments that people have. And I'll dig through this a little bit more. If someone else has an idea, go ahead and type it in the question and I can, I can relay that to the rest of the class. So I will continue working on that. I promise one of these weeks, I'll get the hang of this. Okay, let me go back to, let's see, screen. There we go. And where was I? Oh, yes, editing your fixed fields. And, you know, for the most part, it looks like people are editing their fixed fields and trying to verify the data and correct if necessary. And if you're not doing this, I would encourage you to do this to at least with maybe your non book items, at least go through and just make sure you've got the right format and the right. The right format and making sure that things, you know, so the proper icons will show up, or if you do have that ability for your patrons. And I think it does help with the searching as well if, you know, at least the right format and bibliographic level, if it's a serial or a monograph, I think that does help a lot. And then we're on to the automated system, which I, you know, allowing customization, which I also looked into that a little bit. And from what I can tell, it looks like with most vendors, it's just a matter of asking your vendor what you can do or what you can't do. And it looks like a lot of you are aware that your systems have that capability. And whether it's you or your library director or somebody else who is dealing with that. So and I can certainly understand why people maybe are choosing not to focus on that so much when it comes down to, you know, priorities and you have a really heavy workload and there's a lot going on. For me, that's always kind of not at the top of my priority list. So that's it. Unless there's any more questions about the last assignment, we can move on to the 2XX fields. So it doesn't look like there are any questions about the assignment. Where are there any questions about the 2XX fields and the reading? So I'm getting radio silence. I'm just going to assume that there weren't any questions or at least none right now. So we'll just go through and kind of review this reading a little bit. And so there's a lot, there's many more 2XX fields than the ones that I kind of highlighted in the reading. I chose to pick out the ones that you'll probably come across the most in your copy cataloging. The main one being that 245 field, which is where you put your title and whoever is responsible for the creation of the item. And you can see that I have various examples here of what the 245 can look like. And see if I got into the 246 field, because the 245 can be kind of tricky at times. It's not always easy to tell what exactly the title is, especially when you're working with a lot of state publications. And so let's see, let me go through here. We do, I do get to the 246. Yeah, the 246, which is, the 246 is a really great field because it gives you that option of alternate titles. So in this case that you're seeing on the screen right now, 20 ways to draw and doodle. You know, your main title would be 20, just 20, and then you would spell out 20. And that gives your patrons a lot more options. I use it a lot when I'm working on records because I do a lot with state publications. And if you've ever worked with state publications, you know, their titles aren't always obvious. Or there's a lot of different options for what your title could be. And let me pull up something here. Okay. And you can't see where 246 is on this record, but you could see where there's maybe a possibility of doing a 246 if you wanted to do just state of Nebraska statutes, rules and regulations relating to optometry without that 1989 in the front. Or if you wanted to do rules and regulations relating to optometry. The 246, for me, I think of it as what else might my patrons search by. Or I used to do research for a living and what else, and I was sometimes handed like really odd citations. And that might have part of a title or a really, really long title. And so I would quite often get stuck, get lost, get confused what I was supposed to search for. And so as a cataloger, if I see those kind of added titles or those alternate titles, all that information, I try to make multiple 246s. So all of that information there. So someone who has kind of a weird citation can, excuse me, can find it, you know, hopefully regardless of what information they've been handed or whether they can. Let's see. Here's another example of one that could be a you could have a 246 where in the title you've got Agriculture and Food Act of 1981. You could do a 246 for a summary of the major provisions with comments and interpretation. Again, it's just it's another way that your patrons can search for things and you can do unlimited 246s. And the other big, we do have the 250, which is the addition statement. And those come in handy when people are searching for a specific addition. You know, if they want a revised addition or they're looking for a title that was published by a specific publisher. But I think probably when RDA was introduced, it affected all aspects of Mark, but it really affected the 264 or the 260. It used to be the 260. And then when RDA was introduced, it became the 264, the publication. And before you would just type in, you know, the publisher or if you didn't know the publisher, you do those Latin abbreviations. And now you're given a lot more options in terms of how to express that information. If, for example, there isn't a publisher, you know, you can drop down to like the manufacturer or the distributor, but we're not you got something you really don't need to focus on most things that you handle will have a publisher. And you guys are awfully quiet today, so I'm going to assume there's no questions. And a lot of this information you can find if you have questions about how the 264 should look. You can go to, I showed you this website last week, OCLC Bibliographic Formats and Standards. And if you just click on the two XX fields and you can see over here, I think this is one of the things I like about this is I can see over here off to the side all of the different fields that are in the two XX. And so if I'm not exactly sure about what kind of what field I should use, I know there's a field there. You know, I'll come in and kind of look and just scan down and see what my options are and if there's something that fits in. And then down here at the bottom, there's the 264. And again, there's just lots of examples of how to record this information. And there's you have a lot of different options. And again, we just, we did away with the, if you're familiar with AACR2, you had the Latin abbreviations of SI and SL, publisher unknown, publisher location unknown. We did away with those and just put it in their place, place of excuse me, place of publication not identified and publisher not identified. And you will probably see an older records where they abbreviated the publisher in the newer RDA records. They are asking that we spell out the publisher. And if there's multiple divisions that we include those divisions as well, that's optional. In my opinion, you know, if you just want to do just the main publisher, like in this case Blue Sky Press, you can do just Blue Sky Press. And you don't need to do an imprint of Scholastic. And probably with the 264, one of the other big changes has to do with that publication date. And in AACR2, you know, we kind of just allowed for any date that seemed to be affiliated with the item. You know, we'd try and do the C for the copyright if it was, if it had that copyright date. And with 264 and those changes, it is, if you have a copyright date, you do put it in brackets. We don't make that assumption anymore that the copyright and the publication date are one and the same. But if it is, if you do have a publication date, then you can go ahead and just, you don't need any brackets. And so the way you know that it's a publication date is, well, you don't see that little copyright if it's usually on that title page there. And so I've gone through and kind of reviewed the reading and kind of hit the high points. Not seeing any questions. We can go ahead and start talking about the assignment that will be due next Wednesday. And I'll just pull that up here so we can all see that. And so for this assignment, you'll see that there are slides that there are slides here and they've all been numbered. And you can use the information provided on those slides to go ahead and do your assignment. Oh, hey, I've got some questions here. So Mary Austin, if you have both a publication date and a copyright date, do you include both? That's a really good question, Mary. And, you know, it kind of depends if you have, for example, if they're different, I would definitely include both then. Do the publication date. Let's get out of here. Dude, I'm on the OCLC page right now. So we'll just kind of use this at the bottom, for example. If, for example, like it was published, something was published in 2010, but it was actually copyrighted in 2002, you would want to go ahead and use those two dates. If, for example, they're the same, then that's optional. If you just want to do a 2010 in that subfield C, you don't need to do then a 264 with an indicator of four. But you can personally, I sometimes do. And that's just kind of, I don't know what that is. So I hope that answered your question. Do you have to do 264 fields to get both dates? Yes, you do have to do 264 fields to get both dates. You would do a 264 with an indicator of one, and then you would do a 264 with an indicator of four. And you don't need to go and type out the whole publication statement here, those A and B subfields, if you can just do that subfield C. And is that clear? And oh, what about brackets? Oh, so do you mean if, for example, someone is using the publication dates or excuse me, the copyright date up here in the subfield C, then yes, you would use brackets there because as it's stated in RDA, that is for the publication date. And so because we're using the copyright date, which is not always the same as the publication date, we would put it in brackets. And it would be the same thing if, for example, your item in hand doesn't have the, it doesn't list the place of publication or it doesn't list the publisher. As you can see here, you would do, you would put both of those in brackets because that's information that's not on the item. And with ACR 2, if the information didn't come from the official source, you put it in brackets. And with RDA, if it doesn't come from the item itself, then you put it in brackets. I'm sure, I hope I just didn't confuse everyone there with that. Okay, my second example shows the second 264 with the four indicator with a date not in brackets, but with a C. Okay, let me go back and take a look at that. Let's see here. First example. I meant the OC exam. Oh, okay, dot your handout. Okay. Thank you for clarifying, Mary. Would that be this example here, the Waverly Iowa distributed by CQ products? And they bracketed, I'm assuming because they bracketed that 2010 without the item in hand, I'm assuming that that's information that came from maybe outside the item or they're guessing at it. Or it is, in fact, the copyright, the two right below that. Okay. Oh, these, the 2002 and the 1983. So because there's no brackets, I'm assuming that the, that's actually on the item itself. It's kind of, it's hard to tell sometimes from these examples, exactly what they mean. So sometimes you're kind of, you're kind of guessing, and I'm probably not choosing the best examples here to show you. Generally, when something is bracketed and in mark, it means that it came from outside the item. For example, you did an internet search and you found when something was published or you're kind of, you're guessing at it. You're just, you're not really sure. And did I answer your question, Mary? I'm not sure, still confused. Okay. Let me see if I can figure out, let me go back to actually my examples here. Let's see if I have a full one here. Okay. So on this example, we have this subfield C, the 2000 is in brackets. And that's because as you can see from the item in hand, that it's a copyright date. And the way the instructions are worded in RDA, it clearly calls for a publication date. And so when you put it in brackets, that date, you're saying that that's the copyright date. And we're just, we're assuming it is the same as the publication date. And then because in this example, because there is a publication date, we did not put that in brackets here in this example. And you can also go ahead and add that 264 with the indicator of four. And you can go ahead and note that there is a copyright date as well, that they are one in the same. Is that better or worse? I kind of feel like now I'm at the eye doctor where they say, is this one clear? Or is this one clear? And you're usually like, huh? No, they're both the same. I don't, you know. And you can see here on the examples where the title page does list that 2011 and then on the back, it's got the copyright date. And hopefully that helped and hopefully, okay. So if your item has a publication date of 2001 and a copyright date of 2000 with the second 264 field show brackets or just to see. Your second 264 would just do a C. You wouldn't need to do brackets. And that was from Mary Austin. Yes, that's, yeah, you wouldn't necessarily need to do. You wouldn't need to do brackets for the second 264 because it's on the item itself. And this is from the other Mary in the example before we do not need to use a C with the 2000, even though it is a copyright date. That is correct. That would be this example. Yep, that is correct. The fact that it's in brackets is telling us that that is the copyright date. Now, if you didn't know a copyright date or a publication date and you were having to guess, you could do like 2000 with a question mark. And that would tell us that we're kind of make, not really making it up, but we're guessing. And then, okay. Let's see. There was another question. Alyssa, would the publication date always be listed on the title page or could it be somewhere else too? That is correct, Alyssa. That title page, it's not always there. Sometimes you'll find it on the back side of the title page. I think that's called the Verso. And sometimes, depending on the book, like some publishers like National Geographic will stick their publication information at the end of the book. I don't know why they do this. And so it's okay. As long as it's coming from that item, you don't need to use brackets. Oh, it looks like Mary Austin has figured things out. That's great. I'm really glad to hear that. And the other Mary and Alyssa, did I answer your questions? Or do I need to go into it a little bit? Okay, Mary, I did. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Good. I'm so glad to hear that I've answered your questions. Makes me happy. And so now that we've kind of cleared up the confusion that lies around copyright dates and publication dates. Now, with the publication, oh, nope, that is Alyssa's previous question. Okay. I see things out of the corner of my eye and I think there's a new question and I don't fully read it before I start talking. Sorry, I'm rambling a little bit. You know, yeah, publication dates, it can be kind of confusing. What is the publication date? What is the copyright date? And, you know, that's where I think looking at examples really does help a lot. And it's kind of just, yeah. Looking at examples and, you know, the more items you handle, it seems like, you know, the more variety you see, the clearer it gets. And so if there aren't any more questions, I can go back and talk about the upcoming assignment. Where did I put that? Oh, I know where that is. Okay. So back to the upcoming assignment. Again, you'll use those slides and you'll just go through and write out what you think the 245 will look like for these. And, you know, you don't... Oh, on this week's assignment, are you numbering the titles by the page numbers on the slide or is there a place where you have them numbered that I've not seen? Some of the titles take up more than one slide. That is a good question, Rachelle. And that is one reason why I like to talk about the assignments to make sure we're all sure what's going on here. Let's go ahead and look at the slides. I'll just pull them up. And let's see. Okay. On this one, there's a one. So that would be your first example. And so I think each page is numbered. Yeah. It looks like each page is numbered. And so it's going to be the page number that corresponds with like the title page or the cover of the book. But if you do go ahead or the CD, but if you do go ahead and like do a different one, that's okay. I'm more concerned with that you know how, where to pull that information for the 246 or the 245, excuse me, and how it should look in the record. Does that make sense? Okay. Good. Glad to hear that. And we'll actually use, oh, good. I'm glad that helped you, Arlene, as well. And you'll notice that we will use the same examples throughout for all the homework. And I've gone ahead and posted them each week. And we have quite a few here and a variety of examples. And let me, and we'll also, I'll also ask you to complete a 250 field for the slides, if necessary. And then that wonderful 264 for some of these as well. And you'll get a chance to figure out brackets and copyright and publication dates and how that all works together. So if there aren't any questions, I did go ahead and post another resource here on the page. And that is the cataloging resources available here at the Library Commission. And you can get these through Interlibrary Loan if you don't have them at your library. And if you don't do Interlibrary Loan, you can contact our Interlibrary Loan librarian, Linda, and she can help you with that process. And I'm in the process of ordering some new books and updating this page. And let's see, where is, there's one in particular that I use a lot and here we go. It's Mark 21 for everyone, a practical guide by Deborah Fritz and her husband Richard. And even though it's old, it's older, it was published in 2003 and it doesn't talk about RDA at all. It's still a really great resource and I still refer to it. Deborah Fritz, she really lays it out in a very easy to understand way. And, you know, we really can see those patterns that I talked about last week. And it's, I refer to it a lot still. I refer to it when I was putting together the materials for this class. And occasionally if I'm confused and something's not making sense, I still go back and look at that. So I wanted to highlight that and if, and you'll see down here that some of the same resources that I have on our class website, those resources are here as well. I don't have the OCLC link. I am going to go ahead and add that just because I like that resource better than I think it's easier to follow than the Library of Congress stuff. But you can see we have understanding Mark. If you really want to get into Mark, if you really just decide you love Mark and you want to learn more about Mark, you can really dig into it here. We've got a lot of, a lot of information here about Mark. And then this is the link I do have on our class website. So even when this class isn't active anymore, you'll still be able to get to these resources if you have questions while you're cataloging. So if there aren't any additional questions, I think I might be letting you guys go a little early this week. Wow, half an hour early. I can ramble on for like another half hour, but your time is valuable and I don't want to waste it. Are there any, last call, any questions about anything in Mark, any weird records you've been seeing? Anything unusual you're cataloging or any questions about the assignments or the materials? Oh, I do have another question here. See, I knew if I just rambled long enough, someone would take pity on me. This is from Mary Austin. Many of our audio books were catalogued before I came and someone used a book template instead of an audio book template. So I'm doing a lot of editing. I'm glad to hear that, Mary. It is important because as you guys know that the information contained on a book record isn't necessarily going to be the same information that will be for an audio book record. Personally, I like to make sure that I've cataloged for the item in hand and that the record matches what we have in the collection. I think to not do otherwise is probably, I don't think it's really fair to our patrons. I think our jobs is hard to do what we can to make it easy for patrons to find information or find the resources they want. And it may be they're not using the catalog, but we are. It should be easier for our colleagues and catalog cleanup. And someone mentioned this in the survey that they're having to do some cleanup that when they switched vendors, they found some kind of bad records. And that's something that will always be ongoing as you probably know. When you think you're done, you find a record that doesn't match what you have in hand. You know, someone pulled in whatever because it was the only record there. And it's frustrating to have to go in and clean those up, but that's just kind of the way it is. And I usually, you know, personally at my last job, I knew the person who had been the cataloger before me. And there were times where I just kind of wanted to ring her neck and be like, what were you thinking? But I guess the argument could also be made that it's better to have a record than no record at all. So I'm going to assume that it's clear as mud. Oh, okay. Lori Leonard. Thank you. Yes. We experience a lot of cleanup using a consortium catalog that others, yes. That people attach large print books and paperback and hardback when they really like a large print in particular should get its own record because it is a different format. And quite often I think that pagination is a little different. And depending on your consortium rules and some consortiums, you know, they can you can put paperback and hardback on the same record. You know, if the information is all the same page numbers publisher, you know, if they have all the same features, you can you can put that all on the same record if you want. And but yeah, it's and again, I understand why people do that. It's you're in a hurry or you don't see another record or, you know, you just you want to get the item into circulation. And so close enough is good enough. Oh, okay. And Alyssa has another question. The records we get from Follett are in a ACR to do you recommend changing all of that? You know, that that's a really good question. And that that's up to you. If they're good records, you can leave them as they are. If you want to go ahead and update them and change the 260 to a 264 and add in the three three X fields, which we'll get into next week and get rid of your abbreviations and spell things out. That's that's entirely up to you. It kind of depends on your workflow and, you know, what your workload is and your audience. Do most of our patrons notice the difference? Probably not. But I know here at the library commission, as I've come across those kind of records, I have been trying to update them as I go. And we are going to continue seeing a ACR to records. Just as we see a ACR records and records from the time before that, I don't know what that was called, but oh, good, good. I'm glad that answered your question, Alyssa. You know, our catalogs will always be a mishmash of records. And so it's just it's up to you and what you want to do and what you have time for. And so Mary Juergens, we had records from Follett and they did come in RDA. Yeah, it probably just depends on what materials you're getting. If something is older, it probably will be an ACR to if something is newer. I would hope it'd be an RDA and it may depend on Follett and where they're getting their records from if they're cataloging things in the house. Or if they're pulling them from OCLC. And like I said, not every, I think I said this last week, not every library is cataloging an RDA. Yes, there are libraries that are still cataloging ACR to and are bringing in ACR to records. You know, I'm still dealing with a mishmash seems like hybrids. I think they have the RDA carrier fields, but I've noticed they still use a lot of abbreviations from ACR to and that's from Alyssa. And yes, you we will see a lot of hybrid records for a really long time where they have gone in and added the the RDA carrier fields, the 336, 337 and 338, but they haven't made any other changes. They haven't added the 264 or they still have the abbreviations. And I think and I don't know what OCLC's plan is if they plan to go in and RDA eyes everything at some point. I don't know. I know when I was in Montana, our consortium chose to bring in a vendor who would RDA eyes. All our records that is going and add those three three X and swap the 264 for the two or the 260 for the 264 and get rid of the abbreviations and update some of those subject headings that were affected by the RDA rule change as well. And I know this this class this session has become I think more about RDA than mark and that's okay. I'm like I said I'm always happy to answer whatever questions you have. RDA and mark are related. They do play together, not always well, but they do play together. And a lot of what you know mark is affected by RDA and we have seen some changes in mark and we'll probably continue to see more changes as RDA grows and evolves. And then, you know, at some point, mark will be replaced by another standard. But we're really not going to get into that because they're still figuring that out and it's very theoretical at this point and it makes my head hurt just to think about it. So, so we've got about 15 minutes left and I don't know if there's any more questions. If not, that's okay. We can go ahead and go. I'll sit here for a few more minutes in case someone is typing away. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome, Allison. I'm assuming that means you're not confused. Thank you, Arlene. Have a great day too. And if you guys have questions about the homework, you know, feel free to email me and I'll answer them. And we can talk about that, you know, next week to if going through you had some questions or you're confused. So I think that there doesn't seem to be any more questions. So I'm going to go ahead. Oh, okay. I do have a question here. It looks like let me go back there. In your handout on page six, the 245 field has a first indicator as zero, but there is an author. Oh, that's probably a typo. Thank you for pointing that out, Mary. That's that's actually something I when I'm cataloging. I don't always catch myself. So I will go ahead and make sure that's changed for the next time I do this class. And, okay, Rachel is feeling pretty good about things so far. Okay. Well, good. That's good to know. I will go ahead and get this posted to YouTube and get that link up on our class website. So if you need to go back and view the video, you can. And I will, if I need to, I will go ahead and transcribe the questions and comments and get those posted as well. So thank you for coming today and we'll talk again next week. And let me go ahead and stop.